A message to the moderators

[zerostao]

15 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Really ?   Maybe 'reprimand' was the wrong word  . How about  ;    'expressing near outrage ' ?

 

hard to tell now though since its gone and I cant reference it . 

 

So really I suppose I should clam up  now .   I am one to ask , in such circumstances for a direct quote . Since now thats impossible for me  . . . . . . . .    .       .                       .                         .                                   .

Expressing near outrage? I didnt think you were that bad. I haven't seen that thread since the last time you did. I did give you two "naughty points" for spamming, because you asked the same question another 5 times or so after it had been answered twice. Those points were temporary, have expired by now surely, if not lmk and I will remove them. There were no restrictions, warnings, anything applied towards you. At least not from me, and I'm pretty sure by any other mod either. Just a suggestion, not as a mod, but as a fellow bum, before you get worked up and about to express near outrage again, maybe dont get so worked up, damn, 2 naughty points aint worth stressing over. 

What else you got?

Edited September 2, 2020 by zerostao

[doc benway]

37 minutes ago, Yueya said:

I have no answers to these heartfelt comments about our interactions here. I listen and I feel. The references to thick and thin skins are important,  reminds me of something speculative I wrote last year: 

 

A couple of weeks ago while I was sitting on the veranda of my studio a flametail finch flew inside through the open door and got itself trapped against a fixed window, flapping frantically against the glass. (I live on a forested acreage and have a studio located about 200 metres from my house.) I tried catching it by throwing a light cotton T-shirt over it but it kept evading my attempts to wrap it up. Easy enough to cover it with the T-shirt but difficult to find such a tiny bird underneath it. After a few attempts I was simply able to grab the bird and hold it in my hand. The whole time I was trying to project calmness and loving-kindness. 

 

Now the special thing, the magical thing that awoke a new realisation within me, came about from something I've felt many times before and I'm sure we've all felt without any special realisation. This time feeling the vital essence of that tiny bird, warm and full of wild life, terrified, heart beating frantically, but not struggling found a deep resonance within me. I only held it for a few seconds, just long enough to carry it out the door and across the veranda to release it. That magical thing, that vital essence is something all animals have, including we humans. It’s something hidden within our skin, within my skin. We all have it, yet it’s intensely individual. It’s my soft inner core that I must protect at all costs. It’s my animal nature that connects me with all my fellow animals and life in general. 

 

 For me, that ‘little bird’ inner essence is what I need to nurture and slowly expose so that it may grow ‘self-so’ into a diamond body, an indestructible core. It’s my Buddha nature in embryonic form. The normal process is to grow a thicker skin for protection by developing a strong ego and social persona; both necessary to function in society. My revelation here is to relate this external event with my growing awareness of my inner core as something other than my familiar conscious me. It has its own life-force, like that little bird. I have it within me, yet when I feel into it I can feel how it’s connected with the same essence in all other people, indeed all life. It's both strange and amazing to feel this mysterious 'something' within me. I want to allow it to grow so that it shows me the way, not vice versa. I know in its fragile state I can kill it with my own expectations. 

 

 

 

I had this realization while engaged in one of my (formerly) favorite activities - fly fishing.

I used to absolutely love everything about it.

One day I felt as if that beautiful fish in my hand, struggling for breath, twitching and suffering was me.

We share that same life essence. I felt its fear, its abject terror, its life force.

I felt absolutely no right to subject it to such abuse and horror.

I've never fished since, don't think I ever could again.

[Nungali]

30 minutes ago, zerostao said:

Expressing near outrage? I didnt think you were that bad.

 

 

Is that a joke or did you misread what I wrote ?  If its a misread then you cant follow a simple conversation.

 

If its a joke .... its not one to facilitate clear communication, is it ?

 

30 minutes ago, zerostao said:

 

I haven't seen that thread since the last time you did. I did give you two "naughty points" for spamming, because you asked the same question another 5 times or so after it had been answered twice

 

No, I  dont remember anything about 'spamming'  , you complained that I should  not be criticizing a moderator and , I thought, you seemed rather outraged at the concept  -  or something like that . Hard to tell now as that  thread is  not available to me . 

 

That is why I CLEARLY asked you about that here  after you said  :  " As far as criticism for the moderation, that's not an issue for me. "

 

 

 

30 minutes ago, zerostao said:

Those points were temporary, have expired by now surely, if not lmk and I will remove them. There were no restrictions, warnings, anything applied towards you. At least not from me, and I'm pretty sure by any other mod either. Just a suggestion, not as a mod, but as a fellow bum, before you get worked up and about to express near outrage again, maybe dont get so worked up, damn, 2 naughty points aint worth stressing over. 

What else you got?

 

What else I got is  .... all that you just said   ^  appears to be a smoke screen . Why assume that is what I am on about when all I clearly did was just question your statement that  "As far as criticism for the moderation, that's not an issue for me. "

 

But no , apparently NOW  I am stressing out becasue I got 2 points  for 'spamming '  .

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

I am ready to give up discussing anything like this  due to how it turns out , like before  ( things where getting cleared up but then I am accused of being disruptive and thread removed . ) and now the above .

 

I will just accept it , and accept the 'mammalian politics'  inherent  in it  ( of course !   What was I thinking !  It would not be here ? )   like I  'accept' the government we have  ( and you  folks across the big blue just have to accept the one you got ) .

[zerostao]

23 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

 

 

23 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Is that a joke or did you misread what I wrote ?  If its a misread then you cant follow a simple conversation.

 

If its a joke .... its not one to facilitate clear communication, is it ?

 

 

No, I  dont remember anything about 'spamming'  , you complained that I should  not be criticizing a moderator and , I thought, you seemed rather outraged at the concept  -  or something like that . Hard to tell now as that  thread is  not available to me . 

 

That is why I CLEARLY asked you about that here  after you said  :  " As far as criticism for the moderation, that's not an issue for me. "

 

 

 

 

What else I got is  .... all that you just said   ^  appears to be a smoke screen . Why assume that is what I am on about when all I clearly did was just question your statement that  "As far as criticism for the moderation, that's not an issue for me. "

 

But no , apparently NOW  I am stressing out becasue I got 2 points  for 'spamming '  .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Never once have I ever told anyone they shouldn't criticize moderation. I certainly wasn't outraged. So why would I think you were referring to me being outraged when I haven't been outraged. Smoke screen? 

You are way off base, dude.

Once more, and I wont give points for spamming. I didnt move that thread and I didn't lock it. I won't answer this again though. 

As far as your crticisms of my communications goes, noted. Its something I try and work on.

Your memory of the thread and my memory of it vary widely. 

The 2 points I gave you were for spamming. 

Again, I am repeating myself, here. If you have new questions, I am willing to listen to those.

 

Edited September 2, 2020 by zerostao

[moment]

3 hours ago, steve said:

 

I had this realization while engaged in one of my (formerly) favorite activities - fly fishing.

I used to absolutely love everything about it.

One day I felt as if that beautiful fish in my hand, struggling for breath, twitching and suffering was me.

We share that same life essence. I felt its fear, its abject terror, its life force.

I felt absolutely no right to subject it to such abuse and horror.

I've never fished since, don't think I ever could again.

 

Interesting! That is why I do not fish anymore.

[dwai]

At what point do the incessant and tireless interactions on a forum like this actually become about "Self-introspection, self-improvement, and Self-realization"?

Just curious...there is a propensity to (pardon the pun) "Rage against the Machine" (whatever that machine might be at any given point in time).

But maybe the "RATM" phenomenon is avoidance of self-introspection?

Could it be that the phenomenon is an excuse to shirk from self-improvement?

 

Do people actually come here to share in the true spirit of free exchange of ideas, or do they come to challenge, duel, and win? And then, anything that is not "with me", becomes "against me". 

 

[zerostao]

@Nungali your memory is better than mine. Came across this:

 

Warned nungali for disturbing the peace. 2 points given.

And I added, "being the last man standing attacking  staff, not a good thing."

It was slightly humbling reading that. I should have looked up the thread to double check. Memory, eh

One thing, I think it shows, is i moved on, and forgot it. Certainly, didnt have it filed away in a naughty file.

Apologies mate

 

@steve @moment

Catch & release

Edited September 3, 2020 by zerostao

[zerostao]

18 minutes ago, dwai said:

At what point do the incessant and tireless interactions on a forum like this actually become about "Self-introspection, self-improvement, and Self-realization"?

Just curious...there is a propensity to (pardon the pun) "Rage against the Machine" (whatever that machine might be at any given point in time).

But maybe the "RATM" phenomenon is avoidance of self-introspection?

Could it be that the phenomenon is an excuse to shirk from self-improvement?

 

Do people actually come here to share in the true spirit of free exchange of ideas, or do they come to challenge, duel, and win? And then, anything that is not "with me", becomes "against me". 

 

This.

Edited September 3, 2020 by zerostao

[moment]

5 hours ago, dwai said:

At what point do the incessant and tireless interactions on a forum like this actually become about "Self-introspection, self-improvement, and Self-realization"?

Just curious...there is a propensity to (pardon the pun) "Rage against the Machine" (whatever that machine might be at any given point in time).

But maybe the "RATM" phenomenon is avoidance of self-introspection?

Could it be that the phenomenon is an excuse to shirk from self-improvement?

 

Do people actually come here to share in the true spirit of free exchange of ideas, or do they come to challenge, duel, and win? And then, anything that is not "with me", becomes "against me". 

 

 

I believe all of the above exists at TDB---- and it should, for we all come here at different levels and needs. Keeping the balance is a tricky thing though. I believe as long as the moderators continue discussions and enforcements in a public forum, we as a community will do the best we can. I have confidence in my friends, aquaintances and moderators here.

Edited September 3, 2020 by moment

[moment]

I have noticed that @dawei has not been here since 7-21-20. We did not see eye to eye on many things, but, I do miss him.

Edited September 4, 2020 by moment

[Earl Grey]

On 9/3/2020 at 1:33 AM, steve said:

That was then, this is now. You have a clean slate with me. Ironically, I’ve been your biggest advocate in mod discussion about this current issue. At your request, however, I’ve now recused myself.

 

I made no such request--you initiated it yourself as a reaction to my distrust for you.

 

On 9/3/2020 at 1:33 AM, steve said:

I don’t feel that way at all. You are welcome in the main forum and I enjoyed seeing you participate recently.

 

 

Excellent, glad to know.

 

On 9/3/2020 at 1:33 AM, steve said:

I was not a mod at the time and generally stay out of the fracases. I have respect for several folks involved in that one and so I mostly kept my head down. I do recall defending you in one of those threads as someone I did not feel should be banned. I also supported (maybe even initiated, can’t recall for sure) lessening your suspension when it occurred.

 

You didn't need to be a mod to speak up for someone who was being attacked, which you had done before when you saw me as attacking people, which I did at the time, whether it was gendao or Everything (the former of whom I resolved my conflict with voluntarily and free of others, and still to this day miss his presence because I had seen him grow significantly from the lessons of our conflict). 

 

As for keeping your head down, I believe the following maxim is appropriate: "Evil succeeds only when good men stand by and do nothing."

 

On 9/3/2020 at 1:33 AM, steve said:

I don’t recall attacking you but my memory isn’t what it used to be.

 

 

The web cache as of today no longer can be found, but it certainly exists in the archives you moderators can see after it was hidden by Spotless himself after he "felt attacked", which is baffling given that he initiated the passive-aggressive behavior and somehow didn't expect someone to pick up the gauntlet. 

 

On 9/3/2020 at 1:33 AM, steve said:

That’s good to know but the recent activity has included trash talking by you and others about members and mods in a restricted area where they are not welcome to defend themselves. For me, that is a problem. 

 

What you consider "attacks" to me are speaking in general terms of someone who has no understanding of tradition and groups it all as New Age--something that under the Karen and dawei group would not have garnered a response since it could be anyone. The difference between that and Spotless is that it could be nobody else but me, and what I said is something that criticized what any unschooled individuals can say, which is sadly not uncommon on this forum too. 

 

Unless it's written in the forum rules specifically, I see it as no problem, and until it is amended, I see what I have done as no problem, but if it does become a problem, then I will adjust as per the rules. Until then, this is creating impromptu responses to something with no precedent, and to me carries significant bias given your explanation again in my prior suspension that it was based off of prior history of me "bullying and abusing" then saying to me "being polite" and then refusing my explanation as being bullshit.

 

On 9/3/2020 at 1:33 AM, steve said:

I have no crusade and feel no vitriol.

The main reason I am here is because I really like some of the members and consider them friends.

 

Honestly, if any other member did precisely what you did I would respond in kind. You are exerting a huge amount of energy to making this about me, the forum, the mod team, anything but you. How easy would it be to simply look at the facts and say, ‘oops, sorry folks, maybe it wasn’t right to call other members stupid idiots in an area where I can prohibit them from defending themselves. I’ll try to rein it in a bit.’

 

Your actions show me less of the kind of Buddhism you describe as your own lineage and sound more like solipsism. It is the fire escape of accountability, wherein you say that all problems are from the mind and don't exist, as though it were me who has the problem and you who do not and have not committed any error and can broach the dangerous territory of insufferable nature. 

 

Interestingly, I am not the only one who has read your interactions with me in that suspension thread and here who has drawn similar conclusions, but I am simply the most vocal about it because I have to advocate for myself. 

 

On 9/3/2020 at 1:33 AM, steve said:

That’s all good stuff and does mean something to me. It doesn’t, however, give you immunity.

 

 

I never asked for immunity. What I instead bring that all up for is because you focus purely on that instead of the whole picture, lacking the wisdom of Solomon in making such judgment.

 

On 9/3/2020 at 1:33 AM, steve said:

If it’s too late, so be it. That’s your choice.

Actions here in this thread? I simply shared the quote from your ppf to show you the insult we were reviewing when you denied insulting anyone. I felt I was doing you a favor by being transparent and giving you the opportunity to respond. As I said, you have a clean slate with me. I’ve already offered an apology and I’ve advocated for you in mod discussions. You seem to be demonizing me at this point, which is fine. I can handle it... tough hide and all.

 

Let's see: laughing at the comment ilumairen asked about silent thunder responding to my thread and making the comment about mastercard about the visa system indicates you are having fun. The question I pose is if you think this is helpful at all or what you think you are communicating to me and to others. 

 

As for demonizing, as much as I think the name "Stevil" is hilarious, you have yet to earn my scorn. I might swear at you from behind the computer screen and to my friends in our chat group, but otherwise, you'll need to do a lot more for me to earn real scorn. What earns my scorn are predators, perverts, and scammers. You, Steve, are following your current programming--something that you may not see has been hacked. 

 

On 9/3/2020 at 1:33 AM, steve said:

I’ve mentioned nothing of the past in this thread, that’s all you.

 

 

How easy it is for the one who caused the grief to let it go and be unable to see that the one who was wronged struggles to let it go so easily, much like Charles Bronson remains in prison in the UK and treated worse than serial killers and rapists. I mention him of course because like me, he has an extreme personality and aversion to excruciating circumstances--which don't help his case due to the prison system. 

 

On 9/3/2020 at 1:33 AM, steve said:

Done and done 

 

 

Fantastic.

 

On 9/3/2020 at 1:33 AM, steve said:

If anyone has poisoned my fellow mods, it is not me. 

 

I may be the most vocal, but I'm not the only one who sees the mammalian politics at play here. 

 

I hope this ends our discussion because I've made my points and you've stuck to your stance, but for the purpose of the rest of the board and mod team, at least this penultimate post before I respond to liminal luke and ilumairen will give more context and complexities as opposed to mere caricature. 

Edited September 3, 2020 by Earl Grey

[Earl Grey]

22 hours ago, ilumairen said:

This is actually something I was hoping to discus. IMO it has become this odd sticking point we seem to be swirling around. And it is (again imo) a cause of confusion - greatly muddying the waters.

 

In my personal (non-mod) opinion what spotless did was throw down a gauntlet, and you were punished (in part) for picking it up. As a mod, I am now in a position to say, “yeah, starting a thread about someone to tear them down, even if you don’t expressly name them, isn’t so cool, and perhaps we (as a community) would like to reign this in.”

 

But now we’re stuck here.. where you have experienced it being acceptable (when directed at you), and will feel doubly lambasted if having moved to the other side of the equation you were to (again) be the one to be punished.

 

So my question to the community (and you) at this point is, do we want such indirect (but perhaps reasonably assumed to be about oneself to the “receiving” party) assessments and criticisms to be allowed (potentially as a catalyst to growth), or do we want them “disallowed” under the heading of “personally insulting”?

 

On the Spotless affair, I am grateful that you have some insight to see what is inherently unfair in that and how it still has tendrils in the way I have been treated since my initial and secondary suspension. 

 

My criticism of your dichotomy is that it is done in two extremes, one that fosters extreme passive-aggression, and one that polices all potential for possible passive-aggression, whether intended and present or not. 

 

Let me address this next post from Luke before returning to it as it will tie together much better. 

 

22 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

@Earl Grey

 

Thanks for sharing more of your point of view.  I suspect my idea of the forum as the bar in Cheers does not enjoy anything like universal support.  Oh well.  Call me a Shirley Temple tippler if you must, but I prefer an environment where people don´t call each other idiots.  I do think you´re right to point out that you didn´t identify the idiot in question by name, clearly a mitigating factor.

 

On a personal note, I must admit that I´m a little put off by your PPJ with it´s rigid entry requirements and especially by your statement specifically prohibiting participation by moderators.  Needless to say, it´s not a policy that´s likely to endear you to the mod group. It feels as if you are thumbing your nose at us.  I suppose there´s nothing explicitly against the rules about nose thumbing.  We moderators ought to have thick skin and be able to roll with the punches.  Still, you might remember that the mod team is composed of human beings.  Policies that foment divisiveness and contention lead to (duh!) divisiveness and contention.     

 

Believe it or not, I am the opposite of thick skin. 

 

Thick skin to me is a blanket statement used by individuals like joeblast and the Alt-Right members during the Trump discussions and climate change denial conversations to justify harassment and abuse, and general asshole-ish behavior. While he may argue and quoted once from Buddha his own assessment of my character for my malice towards him as a response to his abusive interactions and inability to see why someone would be hostile towards him, the difference is, he was not doing it in the spirit of love and fraternity, but as a means of a backhanded insult to condescendingly belittle that unsophisticated minds will have difficulty reading. 

 

It is equivalent to someone saying, "You don't know this basic spiritual principle? No wonder you're so messed up!" as opposed to a more "Son, I think this would be helpful if you learn this principle if you haven't heard of it before. Talk to me about it later when you're ready." 

 

My sweeping generalization can both refer to specific individuals or characteristics that any individual can take in my post, but by and large, it is the behavior that imparts the message that one should not emulate such attitudes or behavior of what I refer to, not ad hominem. 

 

So, my answer, ilumairen, is that discernment if something is done in the spirit of goodwill or passive-aggression should be discerned more than writing in a law, because a law can be abused, but a virtue principle can be assessed through wisdom and direct engagement.

 

As for Luke and the rigid entry requirements, I think now is the time to spell out what wasn't obvious: it was complete hyberbole to begin with. It was open in the beginning, even when people like gatito and ChiDragon came to antagonize me or others posting there, and believe it or not, it managed to give GSMaster something he liked and focused on since it was relevant. After my recent suspension for a week and again, nobody asked me privately or publicly what I meant or even gave me a chance to rectify myself instead of what I got, which was an instant suspension. So can you blame me for developing extreme hostility towards you lot?

 

Let's step back further to what inspired this: Spotless called me and my friends (and people I don't even have any relationship with) a "Frat Club of the Childish Lower Sewer Mind" when he drew a line in the sand in his original on the "Setting Up Shop at The Dao Bums" thread and in the moderation thread where I called him out for his passive-aggression. When no significant action was taken and people sided with him, especially silent thunder, I resigned myself to making a joke thread about it for my own amusement, and then it solidified into the anarchic rogue's prank that it is.

 

Now Steve seems to think it is an elitist club and my chess club analogy used earlier means I don't care much about it. But the tone, if you haven't picked up, is closer to the antics of Eric Cartman and Al Bundy.

 

Allow me to show you some video examples to illustrate this:

 

 

This is how I view the cultivation club because of the ostracism: an in-joke by a group of kooks. Let's face it: cultivation is something you have to be crazy to do and will make you crazy eventually, like the NO MA'AM group that we knew was funny back in 1987, yet today, the fact people actually believe things worse than them on reddit is frightening.

 

Unlike the Donald Trump-like wall mentality, my wall is meant to highlight the pettiness of exclusion--because I am excluded via ostracism from the main threads, since apparently, pointing out that proper practice involves several technical steps is bad, and pointing out that practice is potentially dangerous is bad. This is because it is not something people want to hear. So I retreat into my mountain stronghold awaiting good pilgrims to come or be invited. 

 

That pettiness about what is acceptable or not in the main thread is now a parody-like mirror in my PPJ not unlike this episode of Married with Children: 

 

 

It has also funny enough led to the Cartmanland effect: 

 

 

 

How strange I am not wanted on the main board because of my desire to help, and yet people can't leave me alone when I mind my own business. 

 

I am called a" troll" by people, including those who have sent me doxxing threats (and to this day, no action has been taken even when reported), but let's be real: I'm more of an ogre, or an oni, which means like Shrek, I prefer to do my own thing and help out my neighbors if someone asks for help, but by and large, because I've already been made to be a troll, the doors have been closed, and yet as soon as those doors were closed, people come to bang on them loudly. 

 

And if I come out to meet my adversaries, something akin to this happens:

 

 

As I said, Luke: the doors were once open and can easily open again. But because I have been labeled abusive and a bully, what is the point of me even being here? 

 

I already have lessened my interaction on this forum, which used to be many posts across many topics daily, to now occasionally popping in and getting bored with the sterilization of all discussions here. What more do you want? For me to get a new suspension or ban or to just pack my bags and request you delete my entire PPJ and the posts within if so? 

 

I am at a point that I see very little exciting me here and I am only here to respond to PMs or when someone says publicly or privately, "I joined so I could talk to Earl Grey" and I've had a few people tell me that. For all my detractors, I still have silent supporters, and that is all that keeps me here. Otherwise, I can return to my current way of coping with the pandemic and training 5-6 hours a day at a minimum, occasionally checking in or not bothering at all, given the current climate. 

 

I will answer any follow-ups if any in the next 24 hours as I am limiting my time here now to checking it and reading during the day from time to time and posting only in the evening if absolutely necessary like now. 

 

The neutering of my presence is best seen here: 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2020 by Earl Grey

[Apech]

anyone else feel ennui?

[zerostao]

9 minutes ago, Apech said:

anyone else feel ennui?

I do in the way that Sarte expressed in Nausea

I will point out that the thick hide I possess, allows me to take criticisms aimed at me. It does not enable me to stand by quietly as others are insulted. 

 

Edited September 3, 2020 by zerostao
No edit, was going to add something, decided not to

[doc benway]

8 hours ago, zerostao said:

 

@steve @moment

Catch & release

 

 I was already doing that.

I could feel myself being dragged out of (into) the water with a giant hood through my jaw, fighting for my life, terrifie.

Then to have someone hold me, turning me over, looking me over, then tear the hook out of my jaw, all as I fought for air...

Then tossed me back, all for a few minutes of fun and to feel like it was some sort of skill...

I would be ok to do it if I needed the food and had no alternative.

I can no longer derive any pleasure from the experience at all...

[Apech]

5 minutes ago, steve said:

 

 I was already doing that.

I could feel myself being dragged out of (into) the water with a giant hood through my jaw, fighting for my life, terrifie.

Then to have someone hold me, turning me over, looking me over, then tear the hook out of my jaw, all as I fought for air...

Then tossed me back, all for a few minutes of fun and to feel like it was some sort of skill...

I would be ok to do it if I needed the food and had no alternative.

I can no longer derive any pleasure from the experience at all...

 

 

Thou shalt become fishers of men.

[Apech]

8 minutes ago, zerostao said:

I do in the way that Sarte expressed in Nausea

I will point out that the thick hide I possess, allows me to take criticisms aimed at me. It does not enable me to stand by quietly as others are insulted. 

 

 

now I feel existential angst - and it ain't pretty.

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, Earl Grey said:

 

I made no such request--you initiated it yourself as a reaction to my distrust for you.

 

 

Excellent, glad to know.

 

 

You didn't need to be a mod to speak up for someone who was being attacked, which you had done before when you saw me as attacking people, which I did at the time, whether it was gendao or Everything (the former of whom I resolved my conflict with voluntarily and free of others, and still to this day miss his presence because I had seen him grow significantly from the lessons of our conflict). 

 

As for keeping your head down, I believe the following maxim is appropriate: "Evil succeeds only when good men stand by and do nothing."

 

 

The web cache as of today no longer can be found, but it certainly exists in the archives you moderators can see after it was hidden by Spotless himself after he "felt attacked", which is baffling given that he initiated the passive-aggressive behavior and somehow didn't expect someone to pick up the gauntlet. 

 

 

What you consider "attacks" to me are speaking in general terms of someone who has no understanding of tradition and groups it all as New Age--something that under the Karen and dawei group would not have garnered a response since it could be anyone. The difference between that and Spotless is that it could be nobody else but me, and what I said is something that any unschooled individuals can say, which is sadly not uncommon on this forum too. 

 

Unless it's written in the forum rules specifically, I see it as no problem, and until it is amended, I see what I have done as no problem, but if it does become a problem, then I will adjust as per the rules. Until then, this is creating impromptu responses to something with no precedent, and to me carries significant bias given your explanation again in my prior suspension that it was based off of prior history of me "bullying and abusing" then saying to me "being polite" and then refusing my explanation as being bullshit.

 

 

Your actions show me less of the kind of Buddhism you describe as your own lineage and sound more like solipsism. It is the fire escape of accountability, wherein you say that all problems are from the mind and don't exist, as though it were me who has the problem and you who do not and have not committed any error and can broach the dangerous territory of insufferable nature. 

 

Interestingly, I am not the only one who has read your interactions with me in that suspension thread and here who has drawn similar conclusions, but I am simply the most vocal about it because I have to advocate for myself. 

 

 

I never asked for immunity. What I instead bring that all up for is because you focus purely on that instead of the whole picture, lacking the wisdom of Solomon in making such judgment.

 

 

Let's see: laughing at the comment ilumairen asked about silent thunder responding to my thread and making the comment about mastercard about the visa system indicates you are having fun. The question I pose is if you think this is helpful at all or what you think you are communicating to me and to others. 

 

As for demonizing, as much as I think the name "Stevil" is hilarious, you have yet to earn my scorn. I might swear at you from behind the computer screen and to my friends in our chat group, but otherwise, you'll need to do a lot more for me to earn real scorn. What earns my scorn are predators, perverts, and scammers. You, Steve, are following your current programming--something that you may not see has been hacked. 

 

 

How easy it is for the one who caused the grief to let it go and be unable to see that the one who was wronged struggles to let it go so easily, much like Charles Bronson remains in prison in the UK and treated worse than serial killers and rapists. I mention him of course because like me, he has an extreme personality and aversion to excruciating circumstances--which don't help his case due to the prison system. 

 

 

Fantastic.

 

 

I may be the most vocal, but I'm not the only one who sees the mammalian politics at play here. 

 

I hope this ends our discussion because I've made my points and you've stuck to your stance, but for the purpose of the rest of the board and mod team, at least this penultimate post before I respond to liminal luke and ilumairen will give more context and complexities as opposed to mere caricature. 

 

I appreciate the detailed reply and I would like to take some time for genuine consideration of your points before I respond.

I hope the discussion does not end here as I have not yet given up on the possibility of reconciliation, not only with you but with anyone who feels that I'm acting unfairly whether as a mod of member. 

_/\_

 

[doc benway]

4 hours ago, moment said:

 

I believe all of the above exists at TDB---- and it should, for we all come here at different levels and needs. Keeping the balance is a tricky thing though. I believe as long as the moderators continue discussions and enforcements in a public forum, we as a community will do the best we can. I have confidence in my friends, aquaintances and moderators here.

 

I think this could be very valuable.

 

Reading criticisms of the mod team in a restricted sub-forum where we are not welcome to respond and participate does little to help us reconcile and move forward as a community. I would hope that concerns about moderation be brought forward publicly, or privately to individual mods, so that we have an opportunity to better ourselves and better serve the community. Of course if people simply want to vent about us there is always PM and email.

 

I can see that I have been overly reactive in the recent past and I am committed to turning this around or stepping down. I’m not here to be a tyrant or because I’m on a power trip. I simply found the alt-right DaoBums and the wild wild west DaoBums untenable for me so I decided to get involved to try to improve conditions here. If I can not do better by all of you I am happy to pass the torch. I’m not referring to myself because it is all about me, simply because I can only speak for myself.
 

Given the openness of communication going on right now, I feel we have a real opportunity for progress but it will take a little flexibility and vulnerability all round.

[liminal_luke]

@Earl Grey

 

Wow, there´s a lot in what you wrote to think about -- thanks.  I´m a little overwhelmed to process it all at the moment.  One thing that initially struck me is that you say "I am the opposite of thick skinned."  This has the ring of truth to me.  

 

I think it´s possible that in some of your interactions you´ve intended friendly helpfulness and haven´t been perceived that way.  For instance,  if you say "Son, I think this would be helpful..." lots of people, including me, wouldn´t feel a sense of helpfulness.  Addressing someone as "son" implies that you are older and in the wise dad role.  It´s a stance that even teenage Bums seeking assistance might resist.  The implication is that you are more knowledgable.  And here´s the thing: you might well be more knowledgable but people generally want to feel like they are on an equal footing, especially in the context of a forum like this one and not a formal student-teacher relationship.  I believe you are more knowledgeable about Taoist cultivation than I am but if you called me son I would bristle.

 

It might be painful to watch Bums take up cultivation practices that you know from your experience are going to be harmful.  Naturally you want to reach out and prevent terrible consequences, including perhaps hospitalizations and even death.  Who can blame you?  My best friend Greg is openly diabetic.  He was eating a piece of cake at a party one night when a fellow party-goer, a psychologist he barely knew, approached him, noted the cake, and said "you´re hurting my heart."  Rather than feeling cared about, as the psychologist party-goer likely intended, Greg felt affronted.  How dare she tell him, a grown man, what to eat!  My point: helping others is a dicey business.  I don´t think it´s being a "sheriff" to give your opinion -- once.  But people are people and many just aren´t gonna listen.  I think one of the most difficult aspects of being an effective helper is coming to terms with the stubborn destructiveness of others.  

 

 

Edited September 3, 2020 by liminal_luke

[ilumairen]

20 hours ago, steve said:

 

I was not a mod at the time and generally stay out of the fracases. I have respect for several folks involved in that one and so I mostly kept my head down. I do recall defending you in one of those threads as someone I did not feel should be banned. I also supported (maybe even initiated, can’t recall for sure) lessening your suspension when it occurred.

 

Regarding the lessening of the original suspension, I brought it into discussion  (unsure if we had any authority to do this), and Steve picked it up and suggested the reduction to 30 days.
 

And honestly, the whole team was then on board - even the ones who voiced agreement with some action being taken in the whole mess of bans thread.

 

 

20 hours ago, steve said:

 

 

That’s good to know but the recent activity has included trash talking by you and others about members and mods in a restricted area where they are not welcome to defend themselves. For me, that is a problem. 

 

I agree this is an issue. If it is about addressing issues with the board, then I would prefer such be shared in a place where the individuals being referred to are welcome to respond if they choose, and not in a place where they are known to be unwelcome.

[ilumairen]

4 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

 

The web cache as of today no longer can be found, but it certainly exists in the archives you moderators can see after it was hidden by Spotless himself after he "felt attacked", which is baffling given that he initiated the passive-aggressive behavior and somehow didn't expect someone to pick up the gauntlet. 

 

 

As it relates to the idea of Steve attacking you (which this quote was in response to), the only post he made in that thread was in response to a tiny snippet of a post made by silent thunder regarding inner revelation, on his thoughts of how difficult it is to share the harsh lessons learned through inner revelation and vulnerabilities in front of critical strangers.

 

BTW You have filled my plate with things to consider and in some cases research, and this may take me quite awhile. 

 

[dwai]

Not meant to be a derailment, I just wanted to express my fascination at how much I learnt in terms of urban jargon (doxx, incel, etc etc) after reading this thread...I'm only partly jesting here...I had to google these terms.  

 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

@Earl Grey

 

Wow, there´s a lot in what you wrote to think about -- thanks.  I´m a little overwhelmed to process it all at the moment.  One thing that initially struck me is that you say "I am the opposite of thick skinned."  This has the ring of truth to me.  

 

I think it´s possible that in some of your interactions you´ve intended friendly helpfulness and haven´t been perceived that way.  For instance,  if you say "Son, I think this would be helpful..." lots of people, including me, wouldn´t feel a sense of helpfulness.  Addressing someone as "son" implies that you are older and in the wise dad role.  It´s a stance that even teenage Bums seeking assistance might resist.  The implication is that you are more knowledgable.  And here´s the thing: you might well be more knowledgable but people generally want to feel like they are on an equal footing, especially in the context of a forum like this one and not a formal student-teacher relationship.  I believe you are more knowledgeable about Taoist cultivation than I am but if you called me son I would bristle.

 

It might be painful to watch Bums take up cultivation practices that you know from your experience are going to be harmful.  Naturally you want to reach out and prevent terrible consequences, including perhaps hospitalizations and even death.  Who can blame you?  My best friend Greg is openly diabetic.  He was eating a piece of cake at a party one night when a fellow party-goer, a psychologist he barely knew, approached him, noted the cake, and said "you´re hurting my heart."  Rather than feeling cared about, as the psychologist party-goer likely intended, Greg felt affronted.  How dare she tell him, a grown man, what to eat!  My point: helping others is a dicey business.  I don´t think it´s being a "sheriff" to give your opinion -- once.  But people are people and many just aren´t gonna listen.  I think one of the most difficult aspects of being an effective helper is coming to terms with the stubborn destructiveness of others.  

 

 

 

Luke, my son, 'psychologist party-goer' is almost an oxymoron, let's face it.