Kundalini discovery

[ralis]

5 minutes ago, steve said:

 

The masters I’ve met or had contact with who I would say are the closest to this ideal would be the first to say they are nowhere close. Is it possible? Maybe, maybe not; it makes no difference to me as it doesn’t impact my own practice and understanding. I think the idea that it either can or can’t is more an obstacle than something of value.

 

How do you know they are masters? 

[old3bob]

1 minute ago, steve said:

 

The masters I’ve met or had contact with who I would say are the closest to this ideal would be the first to say they are nowhere close. Is it possible? Maybe, maybe not; it makes no difference to me as it doesn’t impact my own practice and understanding. I think the idea that it either can or can’t is more an obstacle than something of value.

 

when "living" Guru merges with Ocean there is no longer differentiation...which can be/is simultaneously revealed to an apparently separate student.

 

and I agree that to fixate on just a concept of either or is problematic.

[doc benway]

37 minutes ago, ralis said:

What does cutting/pasting quotes from a teacher actually accomplish? 

 

For me, it is an opportunity to learn or reinforce something. It is also a chance to see quotes from teachers and teachings I may not be familiar with. Finally, it is a chance to see something that was supportive for someone else. 

 

In a dzogchen context, learning has three aspects. One is to practice and develop direct experience, then compare that to the words of the teachers, and then compare to the descriptions in the texts. The quotes are helpful to me in this regard.

[ralis]

7 minutes ago, steve said:

 

For me, it is an opportunity to learn or reinforce something. It is also a chance to see quotes from teachers and teachings I may not be familiar with. Finally, it is a chance to see something that was supportive for someone else. 

 

In a dzogchen context, learning has three aspects. One is to practice and develop direct experience, then compare that to the words of the teachers, and then compare to the descriptions in the texts. The quotes are helpful to me in this regard.

 

Dzogchen or the natural state is not an isness, or a thing. It can't be learned or acquired as a means of ownership. 

[old3bob]

On 8/15/2020 at 5:01 PM, Bindi said:

"Just thinking aloud here, if part of kundalini’s purpose is to destroy the ego connection to the mundane mind, I’d like to have a place to inhabit within my spirit before that connection is destroyed, which is only possible if the spirit has been fully developed, and I am fully identified with it. "

 

makes me think of  a process of looking from the outside - in, (and also of the inside looking - out) thus who is to say what part of such a process is true or false for the one going through it?  (for Spirit will make use of and work with any process and form it can, thus not just the oldest, latest or that which is purported to be greatest ) 

[mrpasserby]

IME: Human projectors into the ethereal realms have a better chance of being aware of and are able to view their kundalini's thousand petal lotus when it blooms, IMO: this is in part because of the extreme surge of usable energy that accompanies the bloom. IME: after the initial effect the practitioner is then able to more fully project his ethereal body (see Taoist Neiden for internal-external body creation) into the ethereal realms and maintain presents there within the expanded bloom of the lotus itself. I found a picture that seams to somewhat indicate such an occurrence. 

Edited September 7, 2020 by mrpasserby
clarity

[Michael Sternbach]

11 hours ago, Bindi said:

I like this, a matrix can be developed, or even is needed to be developed, to realise Self. In neidan, a True Man (sic) or True Self is realised and nurtured, via an energetic matrix that is carefully constructed. The nature of this True Self may be compatible with the concept of Buddha nature. 

 

According to Theosophy, the antahkarana is built as a bridge to the Higher Self.

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, ralis said:

 

How do you know they are masters? 

 

How indeed, it’s a big question and if there’s interest maybe one for a thread of it’s own. No doubt you have your own ideas. Do you consider Norbu Rinpoche a master? If so, why?

 

Briefly, I’ve come to look at several parameters:

- credentials - are they lineage masters, do they have the endorsement of a credible tradition? 

- lineage - do they represent ideas and practices that are new, old, terma, unbroken transmission? 

- skill - do they have mastery of the knowledge and can they communicate it effectively?

- view - do their teachings and explanations comport with the texts and does what they’re saying make sense?

- meditation - are the techniques they teach pure or modified? do they work for us? do they work for them?

- conduct - do they walk the talk? do their actions express the tenets and fruit of practice? are they surrounded in controversy?

- fruition - do the show enlightened qualities in their body, speech, and mind? are their students showing similar conduct and qualities?

- personal experience - have they had a direct, personal impact on me or my practice that reflects enlightened qualities?

- do other qualified masters consider them as such?

.... and so on

 

Anyone I refer to as master satisfies this general qualification in my mind in some fashion. I’m no authority other than the one that must satisfy the question in my own mind. Ultimately we need to make a determination for ourselves, ideally over time, as to who is qualified. If we then see benefit in our lives from the relationship, trust and confidence will develop.

 

[neti neti]

4 hours ago, ralis said:

What does cutting/pasting quotes from a teacher actually accomplish? 

 

3 hours ago, ralis said:

It is an improbable task to map out reality with any language. 

 

Absolutely! Why even post at all ??? 

[doc benway]

5 minutes ago, neti neti said:

 

 

Absolutely! Why even post at all ??? 

 

I very much feel like this quite often and don’t post much as a result. At the end of the day all we have to share are our experiences, our concepts, and those of others who may, or may not, be further along the path.

[Bindi]

5 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

 

 

Except in that Buddha-nature is not constructed.  Buddha-nature is the continuum of consciousness which is our nature.  The task is to realise it - or rather it realises itself such that consciousness becomes reflexively aware of itself.  The carefully constructed energetic matrix which you refer to is more like the vessel which takes you there than the thing itself.

 

 

Yes, the energetic matrix is the vessel, that was what I was meaning, but I see this matrix as very complex and exact, which seems to be in opposition to most posters. To me it is a whole lot more than just open the central channel, though this is part of it, and I’m pretty sure I differ in my ideas of how to open the central channel - for me it’s work on the two side channels and through each of the chakras that leads to the central channel opening. 

 

I probably also differ in my ideas of the nature of the True Self, I don’t even really know what I think about it yet because I haven’t had first hand experience of an operational True Self yet, I’m still working on the matrix  
 

If the matrix is not fully developed, can this True Self or True nature be partially expressed, or not at all, is it all or nothing??
 

 

5 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

I think we would find if we had the proper resources to research it that there is a common origin in all the systems which work with channels and so on.  Much of the early versions come through medical healing approaches in both India and China - and are used (in slightly different ways) by yogis of different traditions to realise the fundamental nature of being and to achieve a kind of perfect harmony and this health.

 

 

 

[neti neti]

1 minute ago, steve said:

 

I very much feel like this quite often and don’t post much as a result. At the end of the day all we have to share are our experiences, our concepts, and those of others who may, or may not, be further along the path.

 

My sentiments exactly, Steve. 

[doc benway]

2 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Yes, the energetic matrix is the vessel, that was what I was meaning, but I see this matrix as very complex and exact, which seems to be in opposition to most posters.

For sure, the energetic matrix is very complex and precise in both Bön and Buddhist tantra, as well as Daoist neidan. 

 

2 minutes ago, Bindi said:

To me it is a whole lot more than just open the central channel, though this is part of it, and I’m pretty sure I differ in my ideas of how to open the central channel - for me it’s work on the two side channels and through each of the chakras that leads to the central channel opening. 

Tantric generation and completion stages are very complex and culminate in awareness filling the central channel. The central channel being the most direct path to liberation, eg awakening, eg birth of the immortal fetus.

 

2 minutes ago, Bindi said:

I probably also differ in my ideas of the nature of the True Self, I don’t even really know what I think about it yet because I haven’t had first hand experience of an operational True Self yet, I’m still working on the matrix  

I think this is a good approach. Thinking about it isn’t it. Trusting the process will take us farther than thinking about the destination in energetic practices.

 

2 minutes ago, Bindi said:

If the matrix is not fully developed, can this True Self or True nature be partially expressed, or not at all, is it all or nothing??

One could say the True Self is never not expressed. At the same time I would also say that recognition or realization is all or none. When you get it, you got it. In dzogchen, it’s one of the most important steps - recognizing the mind’s True Nature and developing certainty in that recognition. That’s what’s called introduction.

[Apech]

10 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Yes, the energetic matrix is the vessel, that was what I was meaning, but I see this matrix as very complex and exact, which seems to be in opposition to most posters. To me it is a whole lot more than just open the central channel, though this is part of it, and I’m pretty sure I differ in my ideas of how to open the central channel - for me it’s work on the two side channels and through each of the chakras that leads to the central channel opening. 

 

I probably also differ in my ideas of the nature of the True Self, I don’t even really know what I think about it yet because I haven’t had first hand experience of an operational True Self yet, I’m still working on the matrix  
 

If the matrix is not fully developed, can this True Self or True nature be partially expressed, or not at all, is it all or nothing??
 

 

 

 

My thought is that like all great teachings it is a kind of paradox - you have to work, to build, and so on - but also it is only the True Self from which realisation comes.

[doc benway]

56 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

My thought is that like all great teachings it is a kind of paradox - you have to work, to build, and so on - but also it is only the True Self from which realisation comes.

And to which realization comes

 

[Bindi]

 

1 hour ago, steve said:

For sure, the energetic matrix is very complex and precise in both Bön and Buddhist tantra, as well as Daoist neidan. 

 

Tantric generation and completion stages are very complex and culminate in awareness filling the central channel. The central channel being the most direct path to liberation, eg awakening, eg birth of the immortal fetus.

 

I think this is a good approach. Thinking about it isn’t it. Trusting the process will take us farther than thinking about the destination in energetic practices.

 

One could say the True Self is never not expressed. At the same time I would also say that recognition or realization is all or none. When you get it, you got it. In dzogchen, it’s one of the most important steps - recognizing the mind’s True Nature and developing certainty in that recognition. That’s what’s called introduction.

In the end, I imagine if the energetic matrix is operating properly, the higher consciousness stream would become embodied and a natural integrated part of the entire body-mind system, no purposeful meditation to enter that stream would be needed? 
 

This is the point at which I feel kundalini would be relevant, again not something I know about yet. Kundalini activation before this point is what most people experience and refer to. 

 

[doc benway]

10 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

In the end, I imagine if the energetic matrix is operating properly, the higher consciousness stream would become embodied and a natural integrated part of the entire body-mind system, no purposeful meditation to enter that stream would be needed? 
 

This is the point at which I feel kundalini would be relevant, again not something I know about yet. Kundalini activation before this point is what most people experience and refer to. 

 

I think it’s relevant until it’s no longer needed. Like the Buddha’s raft. I suspect there is a similar saying in a Hindu context but I don’t know  Hindu text. 

[Bindi]

20 minutes ago, steve said:

I think it’s relevant until it’s no longer needed. Like the Buddha’s raft. I suspect there is a similar saying in a Hindu context but I don’t know  Hindu text. 

FWIW as I don’t actually know, but I reckon kundalini would remain relevant, coursing through the system endlessly. From what I’ve read, and please correct me if I’m wrong, Tibetan Buddhism’s belief is that Kundalini burns through something and then disappears. 

[Bindi]

From the external Yellow Court text

 

 

When the Jade pearl is solidified, it will be refined endlessly in what I can only imagine is the circulation of kundalini. 
 

If you don’t believe that this Jade pearl can exist in the first place, this sentence will be meaningless to you of course, and different people will interpret it differently, but I have first hand experience of this pearl in its two earlier forms as found in the lower dantians  and I trust that this third form, the Jade form, can be generated and it makes sense that it will be continually refined. Maybe this is introducing something too obscure, but it does underscore the point that this stuff is complicated, and I see no reason to limit my opinion to consensual wisdom
 

 

[old3bob]

the "mind" and all its ramifications are complex,  the Self could be alluded to as pure-unbreakable -unified-joy that is mind shattering simple,  thus mind will never contain Self  and can not cross over.

[Creation]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

If you don’t believe that this Jade pearl can exist in the first place, this sentence will be meaningless to you of course, and different people will interpret it differently, but I have first hand experience of this pearl in its two earlier forms as found in the lower dantians  and I trust that this third form, the Jade form, can be generated and it makes sense that it will be continually refined. Maybe this is introducing something too obscure, but it does underscore the point that this stuff is complicated, and I see no reason to limit my opinion to consensual wisdom
 

 

Hi Bindi,

 

Don't know if you've come across this but I thought you might be interested:

 

[Bindi]

52 minutes ago, old3bob said:

the "mind" and all its ramifications are complex,  the Self could be alluded to as pure-unbreakable -unified-joy that is mind shattering simple,  thus mind will never contain Self  and can not cross over.

Can’t Spirit present itself to me in a form that can be assimilated, so that it can cross over into me? 

[old3bob]

Spirit is already in us, you and all Beings, hidden so to speak in plain sight in all forms to whatever degree... I'd say the workings of nature that can easily be observed and felt if we quiet down are a good example of that.  As for our individual mind which is really part of the mind  construct-ion  can not cross over or "pass through the gate" and remain as our mind or even the mind...thus a very high price to pay for most of us! 

Edited September 7, 2020 by old3bob

[Bindi]

 

12 minutes ago, old3bob said:

Spirit is already in us, you and all Beings, hidden so to speak in plain sight in all forms to whatever degree... I'd say the workings of nature that can easily be observed and felt if we quiet down are a good example of that.  As for our individual mind which is really part of the mind  construct-ion  can not cross over or "pass through the gate" and remain as our mind or even the mind...thus a very high price to pay for most of us! 

I hear what you’re saying, but I’m going to revert to my earlier notion, that the Spirit within us is torn apart, and does actually have to be put back together by ourselves, this small self, and this small self does have to understand the nature of reality to do it - and when it is reassembled the Spirit within can indeed share gifts from itself with us. This just feels more like my lived reality to me, I believe I could find support for my perspective in the neidan texts I prefer than in Buddhist or Vedic texts which posit your perspective. 
 

 

[Bindi]

“Understand your own essence and harmonise Yin and Yang,

like thunder and lightning, the two are mystically bound. 
Between the East point on the right and the West Point on the left

is my room.” 

 

“Observe all from heaven and earth,

to generate virgin new self-existence.”

 

“Surrender concept of oneself to ancient Yin

to re-establish own image.”

 

”Connect to your mysterious force from above, 

and let the clear spirit cross in.” 
 

From here.

 

My name is Bindi and I am a Daoist.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Bindi