Emotions are the path

[Maddie]

10 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

This is definitely true - like the proverbial onion ... but sometimes its not that linear as you can jump around - but generally earlier and earlier.

 

 

 

Definitely not linear but in board generalizations it seems to be the trend.

[manitou]

On 12/10/2020 at 1:56 PM, Apech said:

 

 

This is definitely true - like the proverbial onion ... but sometimes its not that linear as you can jump around - but generally earlier and earlier.

 

 

 

And then to understand the alignment of the memory with an aspect of our current behavior.  This is how the change is made - the memory is re-imprinted, often to the opposite.  Because linear time is an illusion and it's all really happening in the Now, when done in this consciousness it's possible to change a tendency (and therefore a disease) to a more desirable outcome.

[Maddie]

On 9/11/2020 at 1:10 PM, steve said:

I sometimes see practitioners who claim to work with “energy“ but somehow don’t address their emotional life. Not sure how that works. The single most powerful and practical energetic movement in our experience to work and play with is emotional. Warning - if you’re not seeing changes in that part of life, the practices are not working.

 

This is huge. I think the most emotionally unstable patients I get consistently are the ones that do the most energy work.

[Apech]

 

[Mark Foote]

"Stop cherishing yourself, and start cherishing others."?

I can relate to the Bodhisattva Vow, seeking enlightenment for others before oneself.  Cherish others before oneself, maybe, but I'm not sure I should stop cherishing the vehicle I've been given.

[Apech]

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

"Stop cherishing yourself, and start cherishing others."?

I can relate to the Bodhisattva Vow, seeking enlightenment for others before oneself.  Cherish others before oneself, maybe, but I'm not sure I should stop cherishing the vehicle I've been given.

 

https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/geshe-langri-thangpa/eight-verses-training-mind

[Mark Foote]

27 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/geshe-langri-thangpa/eight-verses-training-mind

Not sure on this:

 

3) In my every action, I will watch my mind,
And the moment destructive emotions arise,
I will confront them strongly and avert them,
Since they will hurt both me and others.

 

That's not been my experience, that I can watch my mind when I'm in the grip of a strong emotion like anger.  More like, afterward I can investigate what it was that I was attached to, that triggered the emotion--if I feel release, then maybe I've found it. 

 

I hear you, Apech, about trying to express things in my own words (pg 5).  The other part is, to express things for my own benefit, not with the thought that what I say is going to benefit others.

My approach (which I now remind myself of, as it actually hasn't been my approach that long):

 

I begin with making the surrender of volition in activity related to the movement of breath the object of thought.  For me, that necessitates thought applied and sustained with regard to relaxation of the activity of the body, with regard to the exercise of calm in the stretch of ligaments, with regard to the detachment of mind, and with regard to the presence of mind.  I find that a presence of mind from one breath to the next can precipitate “one-pointedness of mind”, but laying hold of “one-pointedness of mind” requires a surrender of willful activity in the body much like falling asleep.

 

That would be laying hold of the place where self-awareness is located in space, while simultaneously allowing the place a freedom of movement.  

I remember reading "Emotional Intelligence" by Coleman, with its theme of early memories storied in the amygdala that give rise to action before the prefrontal cortex and the thinking mind can kick in.   That's a useful notion, to me.  Reflections on the character traits that I picked up from my parents is another.  

I may never attain the cessation of volition in "sensing and perceiving", as Gautama did, but I think I get it that the rhythm of mindfulness that revolves around the cessation of volition in action of the body has a kind of happiness.

 

 

[Bindi]

Emotions are the path but not the destination. 

[Apech]

11 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Not sure on this:

 

3) In my every action, I will watch my mind,
And the moment destructive emotions arise,
I will confront them strongly and avert them,
Since they will hurt both me and others.

 

That's not been my experience, that I can watch my mind when I'm in the grip of a strong emotion like anger.  More like, afterward I can investigate what it was that I was attached to, that triggered the emotion--if I feel release, then maybe I've found it. 

I hear you, Apech, about trying to express things in my own words (pg 5).  The other part is, to express things for my own benefit, not with the thought that what I say is going to benefit others.
....

 

 

Yes, right, this throws up a load of issues, especially for us moderns.  If you suppress emotions like anger you can actually do yourself harm, psychological damage etc.  But of course also letting it all out could be violent and destructive - so what do you do?  What is the aim?

 

In terms of Lo Jong itself - and I am not really qualified to talk on this properly - but it is a path and not a therapy (if I can put it that way).  So it is based on a vow - the bodhisattva vow - and is about the development of a skill/mastery.  I haven't specifically checked this but I am fairly sure that the 'Jong' word is etymologically the same as 'Gong' or 'Kung' in martial arts.  As in Qi Gong, Kung Fu etc.  So it is really a way of developing a mastery technique in a particular field - in this case the mind.

 

So for instance one gives oneself the task of not harming others.  So when angry thoughts arise you deliberately don't lash out because you have vowed not to harm the other (as in cherish the other).  It is not that you pretend to yourself you are not angry or egotistical and so on - its just that you decide not to let it operate.  This is why it says give victory to the other and take loss and defeat onto yourself.  Sounds like being a doormat - until you realise the warrior struggle that's going on inside.

 

Reflecting afterwards about the nature and cause of anger is clearly the right thing to do but I think the confusion may arise sometimes between the modern psycho-analytical goal of one's own benefit and ego-strength - and the Buddhist goal of loosening attachment to self.

 

This is the best book on Lo Jong if you are interested :

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Path-Awakening-Buddhisms-Enlightenment-Happiness-ebook/dp/B00HZ9Q91S/ref=sr_1_fkmr3_1?crid=25TJ21QDVUBLH&keywords=the+path+to+awareness+shamar&sprefix=the+path+to+awareness+shamar%2Caps%2C146&sr=8-1-fkmr3

 

 

[old3bob]

The way I'd put is that emotional energy can be used as fuel for walking the "path", among other things.

Edited October 9, 2022 by old3bob

[Mark Foote]

On 10/9/2022 at 4:44 AM, Apech said:

 

Yes, right, this throws up a load of issues, especially for us moderns.  If you suppress emotions like anger you can actually do yourself harm, psychological damage etc.  But of course also letting it all out could be violent and destructive - so what do you do?  What is the aim?

 

... So when angry thoughts arise you deliberately don't lash out because you have vowed not to harm the other (as in cherish the other).  It is not that you pretend to yourself you are not angry or egotistical and so on - its just that you decide not to let it operate.  This is why it says give victory to the other and take loss and defeat onto yourself.  Sounds like being a doormat - until you realise the warrior struggle that's going on inside.

 

... This is the best book on Lo Jong if you are interested :

 

Found the book, though not from your link.  The description:

 

(having real problems with the Dao Bums editor this morning, I think I'll need to just start another entry instead of replying here!)

Edited October 10, 2022 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

 

Found the book you recommended, Apech, though clicking on your link didn't bring me to it (?).  The description:

 

Mind training is a comprehensive practice that is suitable for all types of students. It contains the entire path and does not depend on a person's background. Mind training nurses and cultivates the Buddha Nature - that pure seed of awakening that is at the very heart of every sentient being. It has the power to transform even egotistical self-clinging into self-lessness. Put into practice diligently, it is enough to lead you all the way to awakening. 
 

In The Path to Awakening, Shamar Rinpoche gives his own detailed commentary on Chekawa Yeshe Dorje's Seven Points of Mind Training, a text that has been used for transformative practice in Tibetan Buddhism for close to a thousand years. 

Clear, accessible, and yet profound, this book is filled with practical wisdom, philosophy, and meditation instructions.

 

(The Path to Awakening: How Buddhism's Seven Points of Mind Training Can Lead You to a Life of Enlightenment and Happiness Kindle Edition by Shamar Rinpoche)
 

A thing I point out in my latest writing:  what passes for enlightenment is for the most part the attainment of a cessation of volition in action of the body, not the cessation of volition in action of the mind (in "feeling and perceiving").  As I read the Pali sermons, the attainment of the cessation of volition in inhalation and exhalation (action of the body) was the cessation Gautama referred to as the fifteenth element of his way of living, part of his constant mindfulness practice.  That cessation as a concentration was followed by the "survey-sign", a way of calling up the cessation in the course of daily living, if I understand correctly.  

All of which is to say that "it is enough to lead you all the way to awakening" may mean to lead you to the cessation that Gautama used in his daily life, and that I believe most of us take as the essential credential of a Buddhist teacher, but I question whether it is enough to lead to the cessation of volition in action of the mind, the attainment associated with Gautama's enlightenment.  The assumption that "awakening" in a Buddhist context has just one meaning, I think is mistaken, although the loss of "latent conceits that I am the doer, mine is the doer with regard to this consciousness-informed body" may set up the acceptance of a similar loss of conceits with regard to the mind.

Yes, "making self-surrender the object of thought" is the means of initiation of concentration, and "laying hold of one-pointedness of mind" is the essence of Buddhist meditation, and, I think, the Eastern martial arts.  Yes, the practice of putting others before oneself has a use, but I think there's a danger anytime we draw a line between self and other, instead of simply rejecting the existence of an abiding self.

I was in the laundromat last week, and when I went to borrow an empty cart, the gentleman standing next to it indicated that he was using it and I should do without.  There was another cart available but heaped with clothes that someone had apparently removed from a dryer.  I took that heaped cart, dumped the clothes on the table that the gentleman was using to fold his shirts, and proceeded.  As soon as I finished with the cart, I returned it to where I had found it, removing the clothes from the gentleman's table to the cart in the process.

 

I had lost it completely.  What a surprise, my father's temper, alive and well in me.  

Afterward I reflected on my emotions, and realized that maybe I was somehow disappointed that my latest writing didn't engender more response.  In spite of finally saying many things that I've been feeling for a long time (but been unable to express clearly), I didn't receive much feedback.  Of course, I know the foremost object of my writing is to find clarity for myself, yet I was carrying a disappointment, worrying as I pumped quarters into the dryer.  Not a good space to be in.

Like Kobun said down at Esalen, as he raised his bow and shot an arrow into the ocean (instead of at the target), "a perfect shot!"  I love that story.

How the response to my writing could lead to my losing it over someone's selfishness in the laundromat, hard to see, but that's what I sensed as I looked into my feelings.  That's generally how it's been for me with anger over the years, although sometimes it has taken me days to find a sense of compassion and release.  As I write this now, extending the mind of compassion to that gentleman in the laundromat comes more readily--hallelujah!

 

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

On 11/12/2020 at 3:44 AM, Apech said:

 

... Because the mind-substance is a perfect recording material the imprints of all past activity are recorded in it - this is our personal and ancestral line - our emotional inheritance - our baggage if you like which we have to deal with - it comes to us ultimately from the energy of being but via our own personal history, our parent's emotional state both at conception and during our childhood and beyond that all life through the biological record.  Not only does it contain unresolved issues and tensions - but also great wisdom.  In a sense unpacking this wisdom is the path.

 

Author-of-the-thread's message!

Muddy water and lotuses.  The life is in the mud, that's your message I guess.  Playing in the mud preps the immune system, so they say--maybe it's likewise important to live our emotional lives fully.

Gautama spoke of a happiness "apart from sensual pleasure, apart from unskilled states of mind".  I might not know entirely what "apart from unskilled states of mind" means, but I do know that I trust a certain kind of happiness as my guide.  Playing in the mud is not entirely without happiness, though sometimes it gets in the eyes.

 
 

[Maddie]

I wanted to revive this thread because I definitely feel in my case that emotions are absolutely the path. At least they seem to be the thing that I spend my time being mindful of the most.

[C T]

Has it really been almost 2.5 years since this topic was born?? Doesn't feel that long ago. 

 

 

[Maddie]

48 minutes ago, C T said:

Has it really been almost 2.5 years since this topic was born?? Doesn't feel that long ago. 

 

 

 

I guess so but I guess I'm appreciating it more than I did before LOL

[Mark Foote]

2 hours ago, Maddie said:

I wanted to revive this thread because I definitely feel in my case that emotions are absolutely the path. At least they seem to be the thing that I spend my time being mindful of the most.
 

 

Can you expand a little more on how you feel mindfulness of your emotions is a part of your path?

[Mark Foote]

On 10/10/2022 at 9:38 AM, Mark Foote said:

I was in the laundromat last week, and when I went to borrow an empty cart, the gentleman standing next to it indicated that he was using it and I should do without.  There was another cart available but heaped with clothes that someone had apparently removed from a dryer.  I took that heaped cart, dumped the clothes on the table that the gentleman was using to fold his shirts, and proceeded.  As soon as I finished with the cart, I returned it to where I had found it, removing the clothes from the gentleman's table to the cart in the process.

 

I had lost it completely.  What a surprise, my father's temper, alive and well in me.  

Afterward I reflected on my emotions, and realized that maybe I was somehow disappointed that my latest writing didn't engender more response.  In spite of finally saying many things that I've been feeling for a long time (but been unable to express clearly), I didn't receive much feedback.  Of course, I know the foremost object of my writing is to find clarity for myself, yet I was carrying a disappointment, worrying as I pumped quarters into the dryer.  Not a good space to be in.
 

Shortly after the incident in the laundromat, I began to have dreams where people were angry at me, just before I woke up.  I'd never had such dreams before.  Putting two and two together, I called my cardiologist, and at my suggestion he had me discontinue the diuretic he had prescribed (spironolactone).

No more angry people in my dreams.  

I still think I was carrying some disappointment at the time, and that may have left me ill-prepared for my encounter with the cart-Bogarting gentleman, but the hair-trigger part was probably more the drug than my father.  

[Maddie]

7 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

Can you expand a little more on how you feel mindfulness of your emotions is a part of your path?

 

Sure. I think the primary reason that I even got into any kind of cultivation of the mind was because of problematic emotions. Since then they have improved a lot but I still experience most of my objects of mindfulness as strong emotions that pop up and I observe them, and by observing the emotions I tend to often eventually get insight into the factors behind them, the delusion surrounding them, how they leave the suffering and so on and so forth. The way I had mindfulness explain to me was that you pay attention to whatever it is the loudest and that's almost always the loudest.

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

Putting two and two together, I called my cardiologist, and at my suggestion he had me discontinue the diuretic he had prescribed (spironolactone).
 

 

Interesting I take spironolactone, but don't seem to have these side effects fortunately.

[Mark Foote]

1 minute ago, Maddie said:

 

Sure. I think the primary reason that I even got into any kind of cultivation of the mind was because of problematic emotions. Since then they have improved a lot but I still experience most of my objects of mindfulness as strong emotions that pop up and I observe them, and by observing the emotions I tend to often eventually get insight into the factors behind them, the delusion surrounding them, how they leave the suffering and so on and so forth. The way I had mindfulness explain to me was that you pay attention to whatever it is the loudest and that's almost always the loudest.

 

"pay attention to whatever it is that's the loudest"--makes sense.  I am usually reminding myself to be mindful of things I didn't know were important to me before--relaxing, especially relaxing my abdominals, and realizing activity out of the stretch of ligaments.  Detaching the mind, especially as I'm falling asleep, and exercising some presence.  Turning it around, as an expansive presence of mind allows the free placement of attention that results in the autonomic activity of breath.

Being somewhat reclusive allows me a stability in my emotions.  Out at the dance hall, I had many, and they are a mystery.

[Mark Foote]

10 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Interesting I take spironolactone, but don't seem to have these side effects fortunately.

 

Glad of that, for your sake.  There is another drug that does what spironolactone does with fewer side effects, if you ever experience any--eplerenone.  Turned out I didn't need the diuretic.

[Maddie]

5 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

"pay attention to whatever it is that's the loudest"--makes sense.  I am usually reminding myself to be mindful of things I didn't know were important to me before--relaxing, especially relaxing my abdominals, and realizing activity out of the stretch of ligaments.  Detaching the mind, especially as I'm falling asleep, and exercising some presence.  Turning it around, as an expansive presence of mind allows the free placement of attention that results in the autonomic activity of breath.

Being somewhat reclusive allows me a stability in my emotions.  Out at the dance hall, I had many, and they are a mystery.

 

Yes I'm super reclusive. I spent most of Sunday just sitting and watching my emotions. They can tend to be pretty loud so it makes it easy but also provides me with so much insight into the mind. The plus side of all of this is I have changed a lot since I began.

[Mark Foote]

16 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Yes I'm super reclusive. I spent most of Sunday just sitting and watching my emotions. They can tend to be pretty loud so it makes it easy but also provides me with so much insight into the mind. The plus side of all of this is I have changed a lot since I began.

 

 

Sounds like the practice is arriving at a detachment from thought, through observation of the emotions that accompany the thoughts.  

Gautama spoke about mindfulness of body, followed by mindfulness of feelings, but as far as his own practice he only identified two feelings in the mindfulness of feelings, "zest" and "ease".  Relaxing the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation is one thing, discovering "zest" and "ease" afterward is another.  I wrote about that, a while ago:

 

I look to my whole body for help with relaxation at the location of my awareness. If my entire body is engaged in the relaxation of the muscles around the “heart-mind”, as the Chinese describe it, then I experience something like zest and ease.

 

In the same way that the whole body can provide relaxation to the location of awareness, the multiplicity of the senses can provide calm, and in my experience calm at the location of the heart-mind results in an expansive equanimity.

 

To be clear, the location of awareness or “heart-mind” can shift and move, as Suzuki pointed out:

 

Sometimes when you think that you are doing zazen with an imperturbable mind, you ignore the body, but it is also necessary to have the opposite understanding at the same time. Your body is practicing zazen in imperturbability while your mind is moving

(“Whole-Body Zazen”, lecture by Shunryu Suzuki at Tassajara, June 28, 1970, edited by Bill Redican, from cuke.com)

 

 

So that's a far cry from "emotions as the path", exploring the nature of my very human and mostly subconscious framework for living, which is presumably the topic of this thread.  That, I find right away, conversing out at the dance hall!

Curious as to what changes you see in yourself, as a result of your mindfulness of your emotions.
 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Maddie]

4 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

Curious as to what changes you see in yourself, as a result of your mindfulness of your emotions.

 

My understanding of mindfulness of feelings was a reaction to the various input from the sense organs as either pleasant unpleasant or neutral. So I definitely pay attention to emotions in this regards when being mindful of them. They're almost always unpleasant LOL. So for example if anger comes up I observe it and then I see how anger causes suffering and then I make the connection to see through the delusion in the mind that's causing the anger.

 

As far as changes go it's slow and gradual over time but I am not nearly as reactive as I used to be like it takes me a lot to get me angry and then I don't get very angry and then I don't stay angry for example. I've also basically become asexual for all intents and purposes. And pretty much any emotion just tends to affect me less than it used to.