Emotions are the path

[Apech]

1 hour ago, steve said:

 

Just to be clear, not my model. I worked with it for a few years, very effectively in fact. The method was developed by a fellow named Stephen Hayes.

 

There is cognition involved, I believe it’s considered a variant of CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy). The analysis part is not considered to have much value. Like in many Eastern systems, the idea is the mind can’t fix the problems it is continually creating. The analogy is trying to wash blood from one’s hands with more blood. 

 

Then a servant girl, seeing him as he sat in the light and looking closely at him, said, “This man also was with him.” 57 But he denied it, saying, “Woman, I do not know of the model.” 58 And a little later someone else saw him and said, “You also are one of them.” But Steve said, “Man, I am not the originator of the model.” 59 And after an interval of about an hour still another insisted, saying, “Certainly this man also was with him, for he too is a Daobum.” 60 But Steve said, “Man, I do not know what you are talking about, it was Stephen Hayes.” And immediately, while he was still speaking, the rooster crowed.

 

(I apologise in advance for my weird sense of humour).

Edited March 7, 2023 by Apech

[doc benway]

54 minutes ago, Apech said:

(I apologise in advance for my weird sense of humour).

 

I like weird… but don’t always understand. Especially in a digital format.

[Apech]

23 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

Apech puts forward as a topic of discussion, "emotions are the path".  

 

I did!  And I am very happy to see this old thread rejuvenated.  I think it is a very important aspect of spirituality that 'emotions are the path' - although to be frank I cannot recall exactly what point I was trying to make originally.  I seem to be arguing about etymology from a quick read of the OPs.  Which is not really the point.

 

 

23 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

 

Yes, I do; I do have a practice, I do sit, and I do end up just sitting most of the time.  

My take on Apech's topic is that there is a store of information, much of it in the amygdala, that will move me to action before my frontal lobes kick in (thanks, Daniel Goleman, for "Emotional Intelligence").  Likely the same store affects many of my day-to-day decisions, without full realization on my part (a regular Flying Dutchman, on two legs, here).

 

While I think neuroscience is very interesting and can be helpful, I have a personal reluctance to place this activity directly in parts of the brain or nervous system.  For me the body is a projection, a mysterious and important one of course but being a projection it is not really primary.  I would say then that in the storehouse consciousness (alaya) there is all the karmic seeds of past actions, which grow and bear fruit when the right causes and conditions arise.  But even saying this is a bit 'theoretical' I think.  So perhaps what I would say is that as 'beings' we through the senses (5 of which a physical) we interact with the outer vessel.  But our perception is not simple - it is complex (a word which means many folded).  The many-foldedness of our experience and thus the universe we are aware of, comes from the fact that we see through the web of stored experience - a web which is bound together by emotional connection, by which I mean energetic influencing.  So when I see a particular colour, blue say, or a shade of blue to be specific, I don't just see the specific wavelength of light as a spectroscope would, I 'see' a whole kind of bubble of emotive connections, reverberations, like/dislike structures and memories etc.  It sparks a kind of many dimensioned response in me.  All this happens (mostly) beyond the sphere of my conscious thought.  In fact I would say conscious thought is perhaps only 10% of what is going on.

 

 

23 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

How much is the exploration of these "emotions connected with past experiences we can't even remember, or present experiences we don't fully understand" my work, this time around?  That's the way I understand Apech's topic, and I am guessing based mostly on intuition, a lot.  Maybe I should have phrased my question as, "how does a person find and explore these memories without years of expensive therapy"?    

 

I don't think you need any expensive therapy.  It might be helpful of course occasionally - or to just spark some insight in you.  I think what begins any appreciation is sitting, what I would call shamatha - or could be zazen maybe - simply because it is releasing the grip of a tight mind and allowing a little more in.  If we let go of certain anchors then we can explore a wider vista.  And this brings us to the point I think.  There is emotion.  A broad spectrum.  From subtle energy movement to full blown rage perhaps.  Navigating this is a path, maybe the path.

 

What does move?  What does not move?  What changes?  What does not change?  What is uncertain?  What is certain?  What is value?  What is valueless?  What is useful?  What is useless?

 

Where shall we go from here?

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

11 minutes ago, Apech said:

'emotions are the path' - although to be frank I cannot recall exactly what point I was trying to make originally. 

but where is this strange idea comes from? so strange.

[Cobie]

On 07/03/2023 at 5:02 PM, Taoist Texts said:

but where is this strange idea comes from? so strange.

 I think “emotions are the path'”  means the same as  虛其心 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Cobie

[stirling]

11 hours ago, C T said:

I ascribe to the notion that emotions arise out of misplaced attachment to self. Therefore, the prerogative becomes one of working to disentangle coarse and subtle attachment rather than working on or with emotions, which are all ego-based, hence false. It is impossible to attain liberation working with and from unreal premises, yet its a common enough choice that is made. 

 

Even without "self" emotions seem to arise. Without "self", fear and anger (which is also fear) mostly drop away or become momentary, since there isn't a "self" to injure. 

 

Emotions themselves are like thoughts or any other phenomena, arising naturally by themselves without "self" due to causes and conditions in the world. Phenomena, including emotions, don't necessarily belong to us, but might arise in a situation where we are part of what is happening, but that doesn't need to be processed or liberated, like seeing a picture of a starving child, or seeing two people kissing who are obviously in love, or a beautiful vista. The emotion is an inextricable part of the moment, arising now and passing.

[Taoist Texts]

10 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 I think “emotions are the path'”  means the same as  虛心

very strangely, it means the opposite of that. who could come up with this out outlandish idea. buddhists say the damnedest things.

[Cobie]

(烏肝 wu1gan1) ‘black livers’? Nah.

肝 gan1 - euphemism for inner feelings (Kroll dictionary); 烏 - dark; black

So imo it just means negative feelings.  
 

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Cobie

[Taomeow]

40 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

but where is this strange idea comes from? so strange.

 

In this particular thread, perhaps from my assertion that emotions are connections -- between the inner and the outer, and within the inner too, and in this sense are synonymous with aliveness.  And aliveness is the path -- whether in this world or a different one. 

 

The systems that substitute "awareness" (usually with a qualifier "pure") talking about "the path" strike me as too narrow.  Awareness is part of aliveness but is not enough to account for all aspects of aliveness.  I am alive when I'm sleeping, unaware of anything -- from the fact that I'm fast asleep to the "I" that is asleep to the sound of the audiobook that put me to sleep and keeps playing while I'm not aware of it.  When I wake up I discover that I'm at the end of the book and have no idea what happened in the part I slept through.  All the while my audio player was fully aware of the audiobook it was playing -- it's programmed to be -- but it didn't make it alive. 

 

Aliveness, on the other hand, can't be programmed.  It's a state in which emotions create connections that form meanings, regardless of awareness.  2+2=4 is an emotion if you're buying a cup of coffee and a croissant, a faint one if you've got enough money for this to be a non-expense in your budget, a strong one if you barely scraped together some change in your chronically empty wallet, a different one if you "needed" that cup of coffee and finally found a parking spot near a coffee shop, and so on.  But to a cash register it isn't an emotion, it's just pure awareness.  It's aware of the mathematical operation and performs it successfully based on that programmed awareness -- but to a cash register it has as much connection with the previous one or the next one it will perform as "I love you" or "I hate you" -- none whatsoever.   Pure awareness is like that.  

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

very strangely, it means the opposite of that. who could come up with this out outlandish idea. buddhists say the damnedest things.

 

the idea comes from strange Buddhists like me

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, Taomeow said:

perhaps from my assertion that emotions are connections

 

46 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

the idea comes from strange Buddhists like me

great minds think alike. Thanks guys. I just thought it is a from a book or a guru. It sounded like something  a guru would say

[liminal_luke]

Difficult emotions drive spiritual growth.  Unfortunately -- or perhaps not? -- life often sucks.  Many of us find ourselves forced to deal with spiraling inflation, junk email, the sense that the world is on the precipice of environmental devastation, taxes, and more dirty dishes in the sink than any one person should have to face.  Not to mention death, our own and that of those we love.  What's a human to do?  The only sane response to a universe as absurd and patently unfair as ours is to find joy.  Joy is happiness untethered from circumstance.  Joy is feeling good when you don't win the lottery.  It's the psychic biomarker of spiritual growth.  What is spiritual growth?  Spiritual growth is the process of expanding one's definition of self until the world stops hurting.  The more we hurt, the more we're called on to expand.  

Edited March 7, 2023 by liminal_luke

[Mark Foote]

Time marches on
Time stands still
Time on my hands
Time to kill
Blood on my hands
And my hands in the till
Down at the 7-11

 

Gentle rain
Falls on me
All life folds back
Into the sea
We contemplate eternity
Beneath the vast indifference of heaven
 

 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

great minds think alike. Thanks guys. I just thought it is a from a book or a guru. It sounded like something  a guru would say

 

If you wish to see me as a guru, I don't mind.

[Mark Foote]

35 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

If you wish to see me as a guru, I don't mind.

 

 

Cats.  They don't mind how you see them, if they can catch a quick meal and a nap.

[Nungali]

19 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

Here the very modern word "God" is being used in two meanings.

 

"pure in heart" refers to inner spiritual growth.

 

On the other hand:

 

Exodus 33:11

Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend."

 

Thus the Lord was physical and seen by Moses who related to him as to a humanoid.

 

The Lord threatened death to other humans that saw him.  I suspect acne

 

 

 

 

... the Lord threatened acne to people who saw him  ?    

[Nungali]

18 hours ago, C T said:

I ascribe to the notion that emotions arise out of misplaced attachment to self. Therefore, the prerogative becomes one of working to disentangle coarse and subtle attachment rather than working on or with emotions, which are all ego-based, hence false. It is impossible to attain liberation working with and from unreal premises, yet its a common enough choice that is made. 

 

I consider some are , but IMV most are related to conditioning, mostly laid down in early life . In those cases they are often embedded and can be unconscious - the person may not even know the cause of an emotive reaction .

 

Then again , I suppose it depends on how one defines the concept and parameters of 'ego' .

[Lairg]

22 minutes ago, Nungali said:

... the Lord threatened acne to people who saw him  ?    

 

That was a joke.

 

Exodus 33:18-23  New International Version

¹⁸ Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”

¹⁹ And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. ²⁰ But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

²¹ Then the Lord said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. ²² When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. ²³ Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”

 

 

As you may recall from Boulay, it may be that the Lord of the Jews is reptilian and hence forbids any human  from looking at him as he goes past

 

https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/serpents_dragons/boulay-index-en.htm 

Edited March 7, 2023 by Lairg

[doc benway]

18 hours ago, C T said:

I ascribe to the notion that emotions arise out of misplaced attachment to self. Therefore, the prerogative becomes one of working to disentangle coarse and subtle attachment rather than working on or with emotions, which are all ego-based, hence false. It is impossible to attain liberation working with and from unreal premises, yet its a common enough choice that is made. 

 

In my experience those emotions are already there, in the moment. Not working with them as they arise can be an easy way to bypass, something that can be subtle. For that reason I think it’s valuable to work with emotions directly.

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

very strangely, it means the opposite of that. who could come up with this out outlandish idea. buddhists say the damnedest things.

 

But I thought anything could be 'the path' , as long as it is understood in the right way ?

 

Sure, emotions can lead us right OFF the path , as well ... when not managed properly .  So can everything else .     

 

Here is an extension of outlandishness for you :

 

On 'The Great Wheel'  * the 'blue segment ' relates to  the 'Rites of Devotion and Acts of Worship ' and the Bhakti Yoga tradition.  Its 'mismanagement' leads outward to darkness / ignorance and its successful management leads inward to 'the axle'  to 'pure white light' and 'enlightenment '  (as do all the segments describing different paths / practices / yogas on this wheel / diagram ).  It is , like the others 'harnessing the beast' to higher ends , in this case the 'beast' is the emotions .

 

Of course, if you dont know how to ride the beast , you WILL be 'out of control' .

 

- Most are familiar with Karma Yoga - Union by Work . Now it IS outlandish to think I can achieve enlightenment by MERELY  going to the office I hate everyday to get a measly pittance to live on  ..... but not everyone 'works' like that  .  

 

 

* a version of a 'tracing board' we developed and  used for  supplementary study after 2nd degree initiation -

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracing_board

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Cobie said:

(烏肝 wu1gan1) ‘black livers’? Nah.

肝 gan1 - euphemism for inner feelings (Kroll); 烏 - dark; black

So imo it just means negative feelings. 

 

 

Possibly all of them .

 

I remember once -   past GF being real bitch , for 'no reason' -  dark mood, 'negative'  outlook .  We had been 'partying hard ' the week before and I myself felt a bit 'bilious'

 

( bilious - bile ;  Bile, or gall, is a yellow-green fluid produced by the liver of most vertebrates that aids the digestion of lipids in the small intestine. )

 

After a few days of dandelion  tea , milk thistle and some leaves of artichoke ( actually , another type of  thistle ) ... nasty bitch went away and nice GF came back .

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

In this particular thread, perhaps from my assertion that emotions are connections -- between the inner and the outer, and within the inner too, and in this sense are synonymous with aliveness.  And aliveness is the path -- whether in this world or a different one. 

 

I hit the like button after reading just this ,  without going on   

 

A L I V E !   I can find joy and ecstasy in 'merely' just being alive ... the idea that I exist , as opposed to 'non-existence ' .

 

So  .... ( hmmmm , this might be a 'diversion' so I will  ....  )

 

Spoiler

 

... so , yesterday was predicted scorcher , I am going to spend it at the coast, at special spot , flat grassy area under tree shade by the lagoon that goes though the beach to the ocean. Took food, craft project, books,  and long spear (to practice my forms )  and settle in for the day .  They ( mum and daughter ) who I am most fond of , accepted my invitation to meet me there after  pre - school for an early dinner .

 

Now, I am already in 'ecstasy', the place , the vibe  ... I am standing on the bare beach, just that , the ocean and the vast expanse of sky ,  and I am thinking what a fantastic place ... what a wonderful planet ... its as though I a have traveled across  space and found a new wonderful amazing planet and I am on it for the first time , taking it in, marveling at it .

 

But the point is ... watching that little 4 year old girl on the beach. We walk from my camp across the lagoon and sand and near the water  Mum instructs 'Put on your swimmers' .... " NO ! "

" Your clothes will get wet. "  Okay so she takes them off . " Now put on your swimmers . "  

" No . "  - she runs of naked , really fast along the beach . and I dont mean just running ,  running, galloping , leaping up into the air , tossing her head back ... man could she move fast for a little kid ( 4 yo ) . So I am calling " Come back ... c o m e   back " , she does and goes past us , down the beach, turns , comes back laps us , goes away comes back laps us again and again , same running style , laughing,  hair blowing in the wind ... like a young foal or just like a puppy at her first time at the beach .

 

Me; "What's going on ? "

Mum; " She's at the beach , she likes the beach . "

We watched for some time , delighted. " How long will this go on for ?"

Mum ;  'Hard to say . "  

 

It was fantastic to watch, such pure 'aliveness', selebration and totally uninhibited joy .  And it makes me feel EVEN MORE alive too .

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Apech said:

 

the idea comes from strange Buddhists like me

 

]But now you have been upgraded to a 'damned strange Buddhist '  .

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

great minds think alike. Thanks guys. I just thought it is a from a book or a guru. It sounded like something  a guru would say

 

Oh no, thats 'the other game ' that is Played here * .

 

This is not THAT game , but the other one where we discuss original ideas and musings from our own experiences and practices .

 

* the other game - not this one , is one where someone quotes from a book, the internet or youtube and other people quickly look stuff up on the internet and copy and paste it as 'their' response .  ( just in case you are feeling to lazy to look it up yourself) ... its very nice of them to offer this handy service to us .   

 

 

[old3bob]

"original ideas" that have existed with various beings since the beginning of the cosmic cycle billions of years ago that some of us now stumble upon in 2023 or that are have been revealed to us.  Btw, I'd say the best, truest or liveliest "game" is to realize we are not the mind/or a mental program that runs itself .

Edited March 8, 2023 by old3bob