Emotions are the path

[old3bob]

19 hours ago, old3bob said:

Jesus was not hesitant to cast out demons and call them for what they are...so we can't exactly apply looking at humans the same as demons even though some humans are driven by, unfortunate victims of, or even willing accomplices for demonic forces.

 

(To quote my own quote)....the same is true in all major paths which have their ways of dealing with demonic (astral) forces,  which is different than dealing with most humans who may more or less get caught up in various levels of "evil".  Demonic evil only respects power and the pure will to use it defensively and offensively against it,  for it derisively  laughs at virtues like reasoning, compassion, kindness, turning the other cheek, compromise, tolerance, etc..  and if one thinks such virtues can be applied against demonic forces it will likely leave them wide open for even worse viscous attacks that are devoid of any human sensibilities or conscience that one would normally have with most human beings. 

[manitou]

21 hours ago, old3bob said:

Jesus was not hesitant to cast out demons and call them for what they are...so we can't exactly apply looking at humans the same as demons even though some humans are driven by, unfortunate victims of, or even willing accomplices for demonic forces.

 

 

I think the enlightened words spoken on the Sermon on the Mount, for example, show us that he was truly a master.  I have a feeling that he didn't 'believe' in the demons, but was riding the conveyance of the beliefs of the people he was working with.  This is how a healer works.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2023 by manitou

[manitou]

19 hours ago, steve said:

Truth is I have felt anger and frustration from loved ones on occasion when I’m not angry or sad enough to meet their expectations.

 

 

  This is quite a dynamic, cool breeze.

[silent thunder]

On 5/16/2023 at 1:50 PM, liminal_luke said:

<snip>

Seems to me that radical acceptance is an antidote to depression in the face of great injustice.  Radical acceptance is a corrective for hate. 

 

  

Much resonance from here on this... for me acceptance is one of three core mental processes at the heart of my cultivation.  Acknowledgement, Acceptance and Radical Release.  Acknowledge what is, accept that it is, accept that i will act, or not act regarding it and release of what is as what is, (the i am included).

 

Humor (a form of acceptance and release) it seems can be particularly effective in undercutting hate. 

On 5/16/2023 at 3:09 PM, manitou said:

 

<snip>

 

Radical acceptance and Is-ness seems to be pretty much the same thing.

Truly.  Well said.

[Mark Foote]

6 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

"The presumption being, that action can take place without intention. "

I love this.  To me it feels like spontaneity.  Is this wu-wei?
 

Yes.   But so is this:
 

Mayu, Zen master Baoche, was fanning himself. A monk approached and said, “Master, the nature of wind is permanent and there is no place it does not reach. Why, then, do you fan yourself?”
 

“Although you understand that the nature of the wind is permanent,” Mayu replied, “you do not understand the meaning of its reaching everywhere.”
 

“What is the meaning of its reaching everywhere?” asked the monk again. Mayu just kept fanning himself. The monk bowed deeply.

(Dogen, "Genjo Koan", tr Tanahashi)

 

Down there in my signature:

When the location of attention can shift anywhere in the body as a function of the movement of breath, and the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation follows solely from the location of attention, there is a feeling of freedom.

 

Freedom, like spontaneity.

"The location of attention can shift anywhere in the body" as though in open space.  That's not possible unless "there is no place (the wind) does not reach".  "People on the other side of the wall, sit with you.  They don't take the seated posture!", as Kobun said.

 When the activity of the body follows from the location of attention in the movement of breath, a perceived singularity in the location of attention may cause the hand to fan.  Or the legs to get up and walk around.  

Que the twilight zone theme.  Also a part of "Doing nothing, yet everything is done".
 

 

Quote

 

I think the truest actions spring forth from a deep place inside us.  Not sure if there's an intention or not but at least there's not the intention of the everyday figuring-things-out mind.

 

The jumble of letters that is my latest post ends:

Many people in the Buddhist community take enlightenment to be the goal of Buddhist practice.  I would say that when a person consciously experiences automatic movement in the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation, finding a way of life that allows for such experience in the natural course of things becomes the more pressing concern.  Gautama taught such a way of living, although I don’t believe that such a way of living is unique to Buddhism.

 

That about sums it up for me--how do we incorporate experience that takes place without "the intention of the everyday figuring-things-out mind", how do we leave the door open to that in everyday life?   

 

 

Edited May 17, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Nungali]

On 5/17/2023 at 6:08 AM, Mark Foote said:

 

Gautama’s teaching revolved around action, around one specific kind of action:

 

…I say that determinate thought is action. When one determines, one acts by deed, word, or thought.

(AN III 415, Pali Text Society Vol III p 294)

 

To me, that sounds like what I just said .   Action is the outcome , but where do speech and action arise from if not via thought ?

 

On 5/17/2023 at 6:08 AM, Mark Foote said:

 

 

“When one determines”—when a person exercises volition, or choice, action of “deed, word, or thought” follows.

 

That is saying volition and choice come before thought .

 

? 

 

 

 

On 5/17/2023 at 6:08 AM, Mark Foote said:

 

Gautama also spoke of “the activities”.  The activities are the actions that take place as a consequence of the exercise of volition:
 

“And what are the activities?  These are the three activities:--those of deed, speech and mind.  These are activities.”

(SN II 3, PTS vol II p 4)

 

It seems backwards to me  ;    deed speech and mind  .....  thought drives action not   choice driving thought .

On 5/17/2023 at 6:08 AM, Mark Foote said:

Gautama claimed that a ceasing of “action” is possible:
 

And what… is the ceasing of action? That ceasing of action by body, speech, and mind, by which one contacts freedom,–that is called ‘the ceasing of action’.
 

(SN IV 145, Pali Text Society Vol IV p 85)
 

He spoke in detail about how “the activities” come to cease:
 

“…I have seen that the ceasing of the activities is gradual. When one has attained the first trance, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second trance, thought initial and sustained has ceased. When one has attained the third trance, zest has ceased. When one has attained the fourth trance, inbreathing and outbreathing have ceased… Both perception and feeling have ceased when one has attained the cessation of perception and feeling.”
 

(SN IV 217, PTS vol IV p 146)

 

 

Indeed .... and then you are dead .

 

I cant help not appreciatthe mixed up concepts  and the sketchy outline and the possibly bad translations .

 

I prefer, when dealing with the three activities to realise ;

 

Feeling, and thought, and ecstasy

Are but the cerements of Me.
Thrown off like planets from the Sun
Ye ae but satellites of the One.
But should your revolution stop
Ye would inevitably drop
Headlong within the central Soul,
And all the parts become the Whole.
Sloth and activity and peace,
When will ye learn that ye must cease?

 

For me 'work/works ' is sorta misplaced here  .... the work or  'the physical activities' comes after or as a result of  the three primaries and are a pendant to them or a result of them .   But still, all this is  moved, in the first instance , by thought  ( 'higher air ' / 'pneuma' )

 

" Fixed thought is a means to an end. Therefore pay attention to the power of silent thought and meditation. The material act is but the outward expression of thy thought, and therefore hath it been said that "the thought of foolishness is sin." Thought is the commencement of action, and if a chance thought can produce much effect, what cannot fixed thought do? "

 

On 5/17/2023 at 6:08 AM, Mark Foote said:

 

Herein… the (noble) disciple, making self-surrender the object of (their) thought, lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness.  (The disciple), aloof from sensuality, aloof from evil conditions, enters on the first trance, which is accompanied by thought directed and sustained, which is born of solitude, easeful and zestful, and abides therein.

(SN v 198, PTS vol V p 174, SN “noble” substituted for Ariyan)

 

And abides therein .... for what purpose  ?    Bliss ? 

 

When will you learn that this too must cease ? 

 

As a few know here I  do not support the eastern view of 'enlightened retirement  from the world ' . I am from the school of enlightened involvement with the world .

[Nungali]

On 5/17/2023 at 8:09 AM, manitou said:

 

 

Radical acceptance.  I love it.

 

What I often go to, is that we are all actually the same entity with millions of different eyes.  When things are looked at with this view, the things that humans can do to each other are pretty astounding.  Especially when you realize that it's the same entity beating up the same entity.  We are not separate, but we are the entity squeezed through different conditionings.

 

And the same is reflected in our 'selves'   within the psyche .  When we operate under the illusion we have a single self , things appear to work ok.   When parts and nodes of ourselves start to split off and create separate identities  the single human begins to operate like the confused mass of humanity does .

 

Its 'interesting ' *  to see that reflected in a small community as well .

 

 

*  wow , is my foul mouth being well behaved to day  !

 

 

 

On 5/17/2023 at 8:09 AM, manitou said:

 

Radical acceptance and Is-ness seems to be pretty much the same thing.

 

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, steve said:

Moderator Warning

 

@Invisible Acropolis

 

Your posts targeting @liminal_luke are offensive and unacceptable.

An apology is in order and you need to cease and desist.

If you would like to post here, please show everyone respect.

Thank you

Steve for the mod team

 

I'm confused about this .... what where ?

 

if some posts got removed from the thread can we pleased be informed about that .  Not what they where  but just that some where removed , then any (seemingly )  strange reactions ( that are left posted and not removed ) or any warnings   ..... make sense ,

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

(To quote my own quote)....the same is true in all major paths which have their ways of dealing with demonic (astral) forces,  which is different than dealing with most humans who may more or less get caught up in various levels of "evil".  Demonic evil only respects power and the pure will to use it defensively and offensively against it,  for it derisively  laughs at virtues like reasoning, compassion, kindness, turning the other cheek, compromise, tolerance, etc..  and if one thinks such virtues can be applied against demonic forces it will likely leave them wide open for even worse viscous attacks that are devoid of any human sensibilities or conscience that one would normally have with most human beings. 

 

Okay then ... what virtues CAN be applied to 'demonic forces'  ?  And while I am asking you questions ... why are  'demonic forces' equated to  'astral'   ???

 

and why do you consider  virtues like reasoning, compassion, kindness, turning the other cheek, compromise, tolerance, etc.  without 'power' ?

[Mark Foote]

4 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Gautama’s teaching revolved around action, around one specific kind of action:

 

…I say that determinate thought is action. When one determines, one acts by deed, word, or thought.

(AN III 415, Pali Text Society Vol III p 294)

To me, that sounds like what I just said .   Action is the outcome , but where do speech and action arise from if not via thought ?

 

And what… is the ceasing of action? That ceasing of action by body, speech, and mind, by which one contacts freedom,–that is called ‘the ceasing of action’.
 

(SN IV 145, Pali Text Society Vol IV p 85)

 

 

Doesn't sound to me as though speech, deed, and thought have ceased--only speech, deed, and thought that follow from "determinate thought".  You're asking is that possible?
 

 

4 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

That is saying volition and choice come before thought .
 

 

That is saying "determinate thought" gives rise to thought, yes.   Not saying that thought is always preceded by volition and choice.

I would say it happens all the time--spontaneity, as liminal_luke suggested.  Why people alter their consciousness, and  have throughout history, though I don't necessarily recommend that.

 

4 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Both perception and feeling have ceased when one has attained the cessation of perception and feeling.”
 

(SN IV 217, PTS vol IV p 146)

Indeed .... and then you are dead .

 

 

There are actually a couple of sermons where the question is raised with senior monks, not with Gautama himself--someone asks, what's the difference between a person for whom "perception and feeling" have "ceased" and a corpse?

It's not the cessation of perception and feeling per se, but the cessation of "determinate thought" in perception and feeling.  Silly monks.
 

 

4 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

As a few know here I  do not support the eastern view of 'enlightened retirement  from the world ' . I am from the school of enlightened involvement with the world .
 

Not about "enlightened retirement from the world".  As I quoted above to liminal_luke, the piece in which I wove those quotations ends this way:
 

Many people in the Buddhist community take enlightenment to be the goal of Buddhist practice.  I would say that when a person consciously experiences automatic movement in the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation, finding a way of life that allows for such experience in the natural course of things becomes the more pressing concern.  Gautama taught such a way of living, although I don’t believe that such a way of living is unique to Buddhism.
 

For a healthy way of life, the regular cessation of "determinate thought" in inhalation and exhalation, in action of the body, is a good thing.  That's my conclusion.  Please give a look at A Way of Living, there's some science, both Eastern and Western, behind why that is so.  As far as I can tell, it's not necessary to attain enlightenment to make that cessation a regular thing

 

[old3bob]

8 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Okay then ... what virtues CAN be applied to 'demonic forces'  ?  And while I am asking you questions ... why are  'demonic forces' equated to  'astral'   ??? 

 

The lower Astral is home of or the realm for the demonic astral beings , who are of course constantly trying to invade and corrupt other realms.  Thus the almost never ending astral war which spills over into the earthly realm.

 

and why do you consider  virtues like reasoning, compassion, kindness, turning the other cheek, compromise, tolerance, etc.  without 'power' ? 

 

those are with or of power for human being interaction and for most types of beings,  but "even worse viscous attacks that are devoid of any human sensibilities or conscience that one would normally have with most human beings.  if trying to use spiritual human related virtues  where they are not applicable.  Surely you already know of some of this...?

 

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, manitou said:

 

 

I think the enlightened words spoken on the Sermon on the Mount, for example, show us that he was truly a master.  I have a feeling that he didn't 'believe' in the demons, but was riding the conveyance of the beliefs of the people he was working with.  This is how a healer works.

 

 

I'd say  that assumption is as far off as one can get!  You would seemingly know better after study of Don Juan and forms of dark sorcery (the astral demonic) that they were sometimes involved with

[Nungali]

10 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

 

10 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

 

Urrrg ... you messed up the quote function .

 

You :  " those are with or of power for human being interaction and for most types of beings,  but "even worse viscous attacks that are devoid of any human sensibilities or conscience that one would normally have with most human beings.  if trying to use spiritual human related virtues  where they are not applicable.  Surely you already know of some of this...? "

 

I know fake people cant use them with power . But that does not mean that they do not have power of themselves when used correctly .

 

What else triumphs over evil and despair ?

 

This is the day which down the void abysm
At the Earth-born's spell yawns for Heaven's despotism,
And Conquest is dragged captive through the deep;
Love, from its awful throne of patient power
In the wise heart, from the last giddy hour
Of dead endurance, from the slippery steep,
And narrow verge of crag-like agony, springs
And folds over the world its healing wings.
Gentleness, Virtue, Wisdom, and Endurance–
These are the seals of that most firm assurance
Which bars the pit over Destruction's strength;
And if, with infirm hand, Eternity,
Mother of many acts and hours, should free
The serpent that would clasp her with his length,
These are the spells by which to reassume
An empire o'er the disentangled doom.
To suffer woes which Hope thinks infinite;
To forgive wrongs darker than death or night;
To defy Power, which seems omnipotent;
To love, and bear; to hope till Hope creates
From its own wreck the thing it contemplates;
Neither to change, nor falter, nor repent;
This, like thy glory, Titan, is to be
Good, great and joyous, beautiful and free;
This is alone Life, Joy, Empire, and Victory!

 

 

or even ... for those with  'skill'   ( good 'kung fu' ) 

 

 

THE MAGICIAN O Lord, deliver me from hell's great fear and gloom! Loose thou my spirit from the larvae of the tomb! I seek them in their dread abodes without affright: On them will I impose my will, the law of light. I bid the night conceive the glittering hemisphere. Arise, O sun, arise! O moon, shine white and clear! I seek them in their dread abodes without affright: On them will I impose my will, the law of light. Their faces and their shapes are terrible and strange. These devils by my might to angels I will change. These nameless horrors I address without affright: On them will I impose my will, the law of light. These are the phantoms pale of mine astonied view, Yet none but I their blasted beauty can renew; For to the abyss of hell I plunge without affright: On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

 

Like anything , say a sword , it depends on who uses it and how they use it .

 

But no .... some untrained inexperienced new age smudge sticker better not try to dispel a real nasty 'infestation'  .  However they may be effective for normal   " human being interaction and for most types of beings"   ( unless the smudge stickers are the cause of the problem )

 

regarding more intense forces  the  magician should be well trained and 'armed on all points' .    Its very foolish to step into the ring without enough experience  .... still that does not mean that boxing gloves or a fencing foil is weak and inappropriate . The normal cattle might be frightened into compliance by 'showing them an inch of steel '  ( a slight partial draw of the sword ) .... but you better know ho to actually use it well when dealing with 'tough customers' .

 

[old3bob]

The weapon of inviolate truth wielded with indomitable will and blinding light renders the dark astral that would have it otherwise to pieces.  So is the Power of the Golden Being and helpers.  Btw. I'd suggest dropping clever disdainful remarks based on your apparent  and judgmental presumptions about "cattle" which any true master also has compassion for and sees differently.  

[Apech]

15 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

I'm confused about this .... what where ?

 

if some posts got removed from the thread can we pleased be informed about that .  Not what they where  but just that some where removed , then any (seemingly )  strange reactions ( that are left posted and not removed ) or any warnings   ..... make sense ,

 

Allow your confusion to guide you, embrace it, surrender to life in all its mystery.

 

[doc benway]

16 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

I'm confused about this .... what where ?

 

if some posts got removed from the thread can we pleased be informed about that .  Not what they where  but just that some where removed , then any (seemingly )  strange reactions ( that are left posted and not removed ) or any warnings   ..... make sense ,

 

Any time you see a warning about offensive posts and can’t find the posts it’s a good bet they’ve been hidden. I don’t always have time to explain in the moment so your patience is appreciated. 

 

 

[manitou]

16 hours ago, Nungali said:

As a few know here I  do not support the eastern view of 'enlightened retirement  from the world ' . I am from the school of enlightened involvement with the world .

 

 

I was reading a terribly profound book a while back.  I can't remember what book it was.  I recall one thing from the book that stayed with me.  'That when one reaches enlightenment, the enlightened one often retires from the world'.  A cave, maybe.....

 

I've sometimes thought about enlightenment as the physical process of the enlightened body reaching out far into the ethers.  If there is anything to that, I don't think it matters whether the enlightened one is engaged or not engaged with the world.  I think of the enlightened ones as the ones who are the tent poles, holding up the structure of the tent.  And this wouldn't be location specific.  The projection would engage with other projections of the same vibration regardless of where they are in the world.

 

I am of the view that it's important to do what's in front of you, in the most loving manner that's appropriate to the situation.  To not leave a stone unturned, to not shine things on.  Personally, I think that if this is done well, there is no need to go out and look for things to make better.  There is almost an arrogance, IMO, to thinking that by my going out to do-good, that I actually know what somebody else needs.  Most likely that person is in exactly the right situation to develop their soul in the manner for which it is ready.  And to remember that that person, too, is 'god'.  "It" knows exactly what it's doing.

[manitou]

15 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Urrrg ... you messed up the quote function .

 

You :  " those are with or of power for human being interaction and for most types of beings,  but "even worse viscous attacks that are devoid of any human sensibilities or conscience that one would normally have with most human beings.  if trying to use spiritual human related virtues  where they are not applicable.  Surely you already know of some of this...? "

 

I know fake people cant use them with power . But that does not mean that they do not have power of themselves when used correctly .

 

What else triumphs over evil and despair ?

 

This is the day which down the void abysm
At the Earth-born's spell yawns for Heaven's despotism,
And Conquest is dragged captive through the deep;
Love, from its awful throne of patient power
In the wise heart, from the last giddy hour
Of dead endurance, from the slippery steep,
And narrow verge of crag-like agony, springs
And folds over the world its healing wings.
Gentleness, Virtue, Wisdom, and Endurance–
These are the seals of that most firm assurance
Which bars the pit over Destruction's strength;
And if, with infirm hand, Eternity,
Mother of many acts and hours, should free
The serpent that would clasp her with his length,
These are the spells by which to reassume
An empire o'er the disentangled doom.
To suffer woes which Hope thinks infinite;
To forgive wrongs darker than death or night;
To defy Power, which seems omnipotent;
To love, and bear; to hope till Hope creates
From its own wreck the thing it contemplates;
Neither to change, nor falter, nor repent;
This, like thy glory, Titan, is to be
Good, great and joyous, beautiful and free;
This is alone Life, Joy, Empire, and Victory!

 

 

or even ... for those with  'skill'   ( good 'kung fu' ) 

 

 

THE MAGICIAN O Lord, deliver me from hell's great fear and gloom! Loose thou my spirit from the larvae of the tomb! I seek them in their dread abodes without affright: On them will I impose my will, the law of light. I bid the night conceive the glittering hemisphere. Arise, O sun, arise! O moon, shine white and clear! I seek them in their dread abodes without affright: On them will I impose my will, the law of light. Their faces and their shapes are terrible and strange. These devils by my might to angels I will change. These nameless horrors I address without affright: On them will I impose my will, the law of light. These are the phantoms pale of mine astonied view, Yet none but I their blasted beauty can renew; For to the abyss of hell I plunge without affright: On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

 

Like anything , say a sword , it depends on who uses it and how they use it .

 

But no .... some untrained inexperienced new age smudge sticker better not try to dispel a real nasty 'infestation'  .  However they may be effective for normal   " human being interaction and for most types of beings"   ( unless the smudge stickers are the cause of the problem )

 

regarding more intense forces  the  magician should be well trained and 'armed on all points' .    Its very foolish to step into the ring without enough experience  .... still that does not mean that boxing gloves or a fencing foil is weak and inappropriate . The normal cattle might be frightened into compliance by 'showing them an inch of steel '  ( a slight partial draw of the sword ) .... but you better know ho to actually use it well when dealing with 'tough customers' .

 

 

 

Why is it that poetry pisses me off?

[doc benway]

8 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

Why is it that poetry pisses me off?

 

Bad experience in school perhaps?

[Apech]

2 hours ago, steve said:

 

Any time you see a warning about offensive posts and can’t find the posts it’s a good bet they’ve been hidden. I don’t always have time to explain in the moment so your patience is appreciated. 

 

 

 

... and you won't even let me compose an elegy to him.

[Apech]

2 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

Why is it that poetry pisses me off?

 

A rhyme's

A crime

In someone's book.

And yet you yearn

The page to turn

And take a little look.

 

 

[Mark Foote]

2 hours ago, manitou said:

 

I've sometimes thought about enlightenment as the physical process of the enlightened body reaching out far into the ethers.  If there is anything to that, I don't think it matters whether the enlightened one is engaged or not engaged with the world.  I think of the enlightened ones as the ones who are the tent poles, holding up the structure of the tent.  And this wouldn't be location specific.  The projection would engage with other projections of the same vibration regardless of where they are in the world.

 

I think it was in one of Alexandra David-Néel's books, that I read about a Tibetan belief that the presence of a sage in the territory helps to keep the weather propitious. 

I can't remember, but I think that was somehow connected with sages often choosing to live in the desert.

[Lairg]

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

the presence of a sage in the territory helps to keep the weather propitious. 

 

The principle is that the human in harmony with Nature causes Nature to come into harmony around him/her.  Thus rain and shine come at proper times.

 

These days there are weather/earthquake weapons so the principle is not so reliable

 

 

[Nungali]

20 hours ago, old3bob said:

The weapon of inviolate truth wielded with indomitable will and blinding light renders the dark astral that would have it otherwise to pieces.  So is the Power of the Golden Being and helpers.  Btw. I'd suggest dropping clever disdainful remarks based on your apparent  and judgmental presumptions about "cattle" which any true master also has compassion for and sees differently.  

 

Oh sorry ....   " the normal 'straw dogs'  "    then  .

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

Why is it that poetry pisses me off?

 

I dont know ..... but they where exorcism poems