Emotions are the path

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Allow your confusion to guide you, embrace it, surrender to life in all its mystery.

 

 

 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

I was reading a terribly profound book a while back.  I can't remember what book it was.  I recall one thing from the book that stayed with me.  'That when one reaches enlightenment, the enlightened one often retires from the world'.  A cave, maybe.....

 

I've sometimes thought about enlightenment as the physical process of the enlightened body reaching out far into the ethers.  If there is anything to that, I don't think it matters whether the enlightened one is engaged or not engaged with the world.  I think of the enlightened ones as the ones who are the tent poles, holding up the structure of the tent.  And this wouldn't be location specific.  The projection would engage with other projections of the same vibration regardless of where they are in the world.

 

I am of the view that it's important to do what's in front of you, in the most loving manner that's appropriate to the situation.  To not leave a stone unturned, to not shine things on.  Personally, I think that if this is done well, there is no need to go out and look for things to make better.  There is almost an arrogance, IMO, to thinking that by my going out to do-good, that I actually know what somebody else needs.  Most likely that person is in exactly the right situation to develop their soul in the manner for which it is ready.  And to remember that that person, too, is 'god'.  "It" knows exactly what it's doing.

 

Yes , that is the other view and 'understanding'  that I do not hold .  Except I do sorta as a tent pole  IS doing something , and if anyone is going to do something .... why not do it well .

 

Your second paragraph I dont consider an outcome of the 'in the world' philosophy.  I never suggested one goes and 'does good ' or becomes arrogant about it .

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

 

... and you won't even let me compose an elegy to him.

 

DONT !

 

You will piss Manitou off .

[Nungali]

46 minutes ago, Lairg said:

 

The principle is that the human in harmony with Nature causes Nature to come into harmony around him/her.  Thus rain and shine come at proper times.

 

These days there are weather/earthquake weapons so the principle is not so reliable

 

 

 

 

What are the 'proper times' 

 

 Bugger this, I know what Apech's gonna say so I will get in first

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4ga_M5Zdn4

[Mark Foote]

18 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

What are the 'proper times' 

 

 Bugger this, I know what Apech's gonna say so I will get in first

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4ga_M5Zdn4
 

Saw the Byrds at the San Jose Civic around that time.  Caught the tail end of Hendrix's set at the Fillmore, before the Airplane.  



Clouds above Mount Konocti at Clear Lake, yesterday:

[liminal_luke]

20 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

DONT !

 

You will piss Manitou off .

 

I'm not concerned with pissing off Manitou. Before you can say Principles, Not Personalities ten times fast, Manitou will have processed her pissed-off-edness. With her custom blend of 12-step wisdom, emotional courage, and a touch of witchy Daoist alchemy, that Bum will emerge Strong, more in tune with the universe than ever.  Emotions are the path.

Edited May 19, 2023 by liminal_luke

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Saw the Byrds at the San Jose Civic around that time.  Caught the tail end of Hendrix's set at the Fillmore, before the Airplane.  



Clouds above Mount Konocti at Clear Lake, yesterday:

 

Hmmmm ..... now I am jealous of you .

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I'm not concerned with pissing off Manitou. Before you can say Principles, Not Personalities ten times fast, Manitou will have processed her pissed-off-edness. With her custom blend of 12-step wisdom, emotional courage, and a touch of witchy Daoist alchemy, that Bum will emerge Strong, more in tune with the universe than ever.  Emotions are the path.

 

Okay

 

.... as long as     that bum will emerge strong  ...... that shall suffice

 

Spoiler

 

 ..... on second thought ..... no, I better not post that image .

 

[manitou]

On 5/18/2023 at 11:32 AM, Apech said:

 

A rhyme's

A crime

In someone's book.

And yet you yearn

The page to turn

And take a little look.

 

 

 

 

I think it's the non sequitur nature of poetry.  Too many surprises for this old lady.

[manitou]

On 5/19/2023 at 10:32 AM, liminal_luke said:

 

I'm not concerned with pissing off Manitou. Before you can say Principles, Not Personalities ten times fast, Manitou will have processed her pissed-off-edness. With her custom blend of 12-step wisdom, emotional courage, and a touch of witchy Daoist alchemy, that Bum will emerge Strong, more in tune with the universe than ever.  Emotions are the path.

 

 

This is possibly the nicest thing anything has ever said about me.  It only took 76 years.

[Mark Foote]

4 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

I think it's the non sequitur nature of poetry.  Too many surprises for this old lady.
 

Some poetry is better than others, in that respect, I think.  I like a lot of Mary Oliver, for example.  
 

I GO DOWN TO THE SHORE

I go down to the shore in the morning
and depending on the hour the waves
are rolling in or moving out,
and I say, oh, I am miserable,
what shall-
what should I do? And the sea says
in its lovely voice:
Excuse me, I have work to do.

[manitou]

49 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

Some poetry is better than others, in that respect, I think.  I like a lot of Mary Oliver, for example.  
 

I GO DOWN TO THE SHORE

I go down to the shore in the morning
and depending on the hour the waves
are rolling in or moving out,
and I say, oh, I am miserable,
what shall-
what should I do? And the sea says
in its lovely voice:
Excuse me, I have work to do.

 

 

Eh.

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, manitou said:

 

 

This is possibly the nicest thing anything has ever said about me.  It only took 76 years.

 

I recall a formerly active member mocking me for suggesting that we should value kindness over information exchange here.

We can access unlimited information on any subject instantaneously these days but genuine kindness remains far more rare and valuable. 

You and Luke are two of a handful of reasons why this is a worthwhile place to visit, IMO.

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Some poetry is better than others, in that respect, I think.  I like a lot of Mary Oliver, for example.  
 

I GO DOWN TO THE SHORE

I go down to the shore in the morning
and depending on the hour the waves
are rolling in or moving out,
and I say, oh, I am miserable,
what shall-
what should I do? And the sea says
in its lovely voice:
Excuse me, I have work to do.

 

I used to be a stage poet at the local town's 'Butter factory' *  poetry night  - put on by the local radio station manager  who I was friends with . They where fun times .   One time when I was invited to perform, he told me the local 'poetry appreciation society' did want me to perform but ...... they prefer 'nice' poems and one's that rhyme ... so if you could do that, that would be good  .....

 

So I wrote a special one for them    .      That went down good with half of them , as there was this division in the audience ;  some where  ... well , poetry  new age hipster knob head types  .  They didnt like having fun made of them .   Oh, well, suck it up .  I had another set on later after some other 'performers' . I took a break and went out the hatch up onto the roof where there was a small deck and seats .. I heard crying and looked over and  there was a woman I knew  sobbing away and half way through a bottle of scotch .

 

"What's up ? "

 

" My boyfriend dumped me this afternoon !   Whaaaaaa ! "

 

" Oh dear .... " I sat beside her put my arm around her  and helped her finish off the bottle .   I think there where some more drinks after that  - there was a bar downstairs . Then I went back up to the roof .  But after a while realized  I needed another 're-charge' ... this was in my earlier days .... sometimes I would re-charge a bit  .... well, okay,  a lot then .  The issues was though, to get from the roof back down to the bar , I was a little 'tipsy'  and  had to  come out at the side of the stage and walk down some steps that crossed the bottom of the stage  to the middle, then a landing and a turn in front of the stage but lower  and the stairs continued down to the next level , dance floor .  To  go that way would mean   the top part of my body would cross the stage and descend as I walked down the stairs . And there was a performance on ... two poetry society hipsters ; one  recited homemade haiku while the other tried to emulate each line at its end with corny little cheap electronic synthesizer noises  (  1 ;   " The wind blows across the lake " . 2. < electronic swooshing noises >   )  Okay, I might be a little drunk, but that doesnt mean I am inconsiderate ... I know, I will crouch down as i go down the stairs  so  I dont obscure their 'presence' ... and go slowly .

 

I crouch and step slowly on the first step  .....creeeaaak  !  They stop and glare at me . Oooops, okay , I'll just squat here a bit . They continue . I go for the next step  .....   creeekk-kkk !  Damn .  They stop and stare again .  That happened a few times . My God, is every stair gonna do that ? I cant just squat here till they end . So I decide I am nearly below stage level, I could just do a little jump over all the rest of the stirs  and land on the landing below . So I did .   But I didnt land very well  as I was trying to crouch . That really disturbed things .      Anyway, I made it to the bar .

 

Eventually it was my set again so I got up on the stage . There was some kerfuffle  and complaint and these three guys get up on stage and act as if they are bouncers   and trying to remove me  ..... Its that guy again ! get that drunk bum off the stage !   Until the MC goes  " No no, he is up here as he is the next performer ."         The look on their faces  ... "  What ?   That guy !  " 

 

Anyway ,  it  went rather well, considering , I think I hardly slurred my lines at all !   But unfortunately, afterwards , this woman from the audience picked me up  ( yep , 'us poets' get groupies    )   Why unfortunate ?  because we ran off together at the end  and .... missed all the fun .

 

I noticed it was getting a bit agitated .  The 'nice hipster arty types' had got a bit tipsy and confident on their wine . They where demanding more poetry, but there where no more poets . A nice young lady opted to play the guitar for further entertainment , she was pretty good . I left around that time . Apparently, the radio show friend told me  later ,  the drunk arty types kept chanting 'more poetry' and started booing the guitarist . The other contingent , also  'happy'  told them to shut up and not be rude to her , they where enjoying it .  and  .... a punch up actually started       A free for all 'bar room brawl   

 

Oh man I would have loved to see that ... the artsy poetry society  stuck up hipsters , drunk and brawling .... could have been an inspiration for my next lot of poems for the local towns art society poetry night  .... if they ever let them have them there again .... " No !  That poetry crowd is too rough ! "  

 

- see how much fun poetry can be  Manitou  ! 

 

* north coast towns used to have big dairy industries , these old butter factories  get converted for  various uses .

[Mark Foote]

52 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

I used to be a stage poet at the local town's 'Butter factory' *  poetry night  - put on by the local radio station manager  who I was friends with .

 

* north coast towns used to have big dairy industries , these old butter factories  get converted for  various uses .
 

Name names, Nungali--"north coast towns"?  I've lived in Petaluma, Sebastopol, and even in Humboldt County, though that was in the country.  

It's great that you were turning it out, and performing in front of the public with your material.  IMHO.

Yours truly, in the charming town of Sonoma:
 

I never got to the verses, that night:
 

did you ever see someone vanish
right before your eyes
like they're made out of light rays
and suddenly they just rise

walking, walking
walking between the stars

did you ever hear someone laughing
and feel your heartbeat start
in the space of an instant
they touched some deeper part

walking, walking
walking between the stars

Edited May 20, 2023 by Mark Foote

[manitou]

Mark, that was quite listenable!

[manitou]

22 hours ago, steve said:

 

I recall a formerly active member mocking me for suggesting that we should value kindness over information exchange here.

We can access unlimited information on any subject instantaneously these days but genuine kindness remains far more rare and valuable. 

You and Luke are two of a handful of reasons why this is a worthwhile place to visit, IMO.

 

 

Thank you, Steve.  I think the thing that makes this website exceptional is the kindness with which we speak to each other.  It hasn't always been that way, but it seems like all of us personalities have matured over the years.

[Nungali]

22 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Name names, Nungali--"north coast towns"?  I've lived in Petaluma, Sebastopol, and even in Humboldt County, though that was in the country.  

It's great that you were turning it out, and performing in front of the public with your material.  IMHO.

Yours truly, in the charming town of Sonoma:
 

I never got to the verses, that night:
 

did you ever see someone vanish
right before your eyes
like they're made out of light rays
and suddenly they just rise

walking, walking
walking between the stars

did you ever hear someone laughing
and feel your heartbeat start
in the space of an instant
they touched some deeper part

walking, walking
walking between the stars

 

Names ? 

 

Lismore  .... Bellingen  .... Tintenbar  ......    Gooloogalock  ..... Woodenbong    .... Telegraph Point

 

did that help ? 

 

 

 

 

Old Butter factory  .... home town .

 

 

Okay .... if we are gonna start posting film of us performing at venues here   ..... I guess its my turn .

 

 here is me at  Poetry Society night   2   :   ( all those nice men turning up to help me     )

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, manitou said:

Mark, that was quite listenable!

 

Oh ...

 

so HIS poetry is okay   .... just cause it got music with it  . 

 

[Mark Foote]

15 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Names ? 

 

Lismore  .... Bellingen  .... Tintenbar  ......    Gooloogalock  ..... Woodenbong    .... Telegraph Point

 

did that help ? 

 

 

 

 

Old Butter factory  .... home town .

 

Ah--the north coast, of course!   Butter factory, my kind of place! 

[Apech]

Quote

 

Tigle is bindu in Sanskrit or “seeds of energy” in English. Within the subtle body there are different levels of subtlety. The channels are kind of gross, the energies are more subtle, and finally the seeds of energy are more subtle again.

According to the Vajrayana, properly functioning tigle (seeds of energy), which are not dried up, are the basis for love, for happiness, for compassion, and for bodhicitta. When the subtle body is in balance, the energy circulates properly through the channels, and the tigle, the seeds of energy, are circulated along with the energy throughout the body. Since the mind rides on these energies, if the tigle are not dried up but circulating throughout the body, the mind has the basis to experience well being and happiness.

 

https://tsoknyirinpoche.org/teachings/loving-kindness-and-compassion-in-the-dzogchen-tradition/

 

There's a saying in LoJong (mind training) that you should 'see confusion (delusion) as the four kayas'.

 

The kayas are the 'bodies' or possibly levels of buddhahood.  Seeing the subtle body as the sambhoga-kaya is part of this.  We often speak of the subtle body as winds and channels (tsa-lung) or nadis and prana but there are also 'essences' called tigle in Tibetan and bindi (seeds) in Sanskrit.  There are chiefly red and white tigle which focus around the navel and the crown respectively.

 

As in the quote above the subtle body work is all about good circulation - and the mind 'rides on these energies'.  How well and happy you feel depends on this.  Emotion is also about this ... the e-motion.  It is interesting to recognise that this subtle body is continually active, in fact sambhoga-kaya means something like the body of total enjoyment.  Like the joy of being which purified and released emotion, non-stagnant emotion is experienced as.   When I say 'experienced' - it is not outer more inner - so perhaps inperienced.

 

I think it's quite accepted by us on DBs that there are channels and there is qi moving through them.  But we have very little talk of essences, tigle, drops or seeds within that stream, what they mean and how we can work with them.

 

Any thoughts?

[Mark Foote]

9 hours ago, Apech said:

https://tsoknyirinpoche.org/teachings/loving-kindness-and-compassion-in-the-dzogchen-tradition/

 

There's a saying in LoJong (mind training) that you should 'see confusion (delusion) as the four kayas'.

 

The kayas are the 'bodies' or possibly levels of buddhahood.  Seeing the subtle body as the sambhoga-kaya is part of this.  We often speak of the subtle body as winds and channels (tsa-lung) or nadis and prana but there are also 'essences' called tigle in Tibetan and bindi (seeds) in Sanskrit.  There are chiefly red and white tigle which focus around the navel and the crown respectively.

 

As in the quote above the subtle body work is all about good circulation - and the mind 'rides on these energies'.  How well and happy you feel depends on this.  Emotion is also about this ... the e-motion.  It is interesting to recognise that this subtle body is continually active, in fact sambhoga-kaya means something like the body of total enjoyment.  Like the joy of being which purified and released emotion, non-stagnant emotion is experienced as.   When I say 'experienced' - it is not outer more inner - so perhaps inperienced.

 

I think it's quite accepted by us on DBs that there are channels and there is qi moving through them.  But we have very little talk of essences, tigle, drops or seeds within that stream, what they mean and how we can work with them.

 

Any thoughts?

Gautama described the fourth concentration by saying:
 

... seated, (one) suffuses (one’s) body with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind.
 

And I explain that as:

 

The “pureness of mind” refers to the absence of any intention to act. Suffusing the body with “purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind” is widening awareness so that there is “not one particle of the body” that cannot become the location where attention is placed. 
 

 

The emphasis on the particle level awareness is the common thread, I guess, between the lama's description of "seeds" and Gautama's description.

Slicing and dicing cosmic mumbo jumbo!   "Jambalaya, crawfish pie and fillet gumbo... Son of a gun, we'll have big fun on the bayou!"

Edited May 24, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Bindi]

………..

Edited May 26, 2023 by Bindi

[Lairg]

 

43 minutes ago, Bindi said:

the one at the navel I saw as like mercury, and when it was ready it travelled from below my navel to above my navel

 

In my observation the lowest layer of the solar plexus chakra is anchored just above the navel in women and just below in men.

 

Do women sense the difference?

[Mark Foote]

"dontknwmucboutanythng" has a new thread with a link to an article entitled “Like a Vibration Cascading through the Body”: Energy-Like Somatic Experiences Reported by Western Buddhist Meditators.

 

The abstract of the article begins:

 

There are numerous historical and textual references to energy-like somatic experiences (ELSEs) from religious traditions, and even a few psychological studies that have documented related phenomena. However, ELSEs remain an understudied effect of meditation in contemporary research. Based upon narratives from a large qualitative sample of Buddhist meditators in the West reporting meditation-related challenges, this paper offers a unique glimpse into how ELSEs play out in the lives of contemporary meditation practitioners and meditation experts. 

 

The study was actually an analysis of data from another study:

 

The Varieties of Contemplative Experience (VCE) is a mixed-methods study of meditation-related challenges, as reported by Buddhist meditation practitioners (n = 60) and meditation experts (n = 32) in the West (Lindahl et al. 2017). Through purposive sampling, male (57%) and female practitioners, equally distributed among Theravāda, Zen, and Tibetan Buddhist lineages, were recruited to describe their meditation-related challenges, what they think caused them, how they and others interpreted them, and what remedies or responses were helpful or unhelpful for navigating them. Experts (meditation teachers and clinicians) were asked to describe meditation-related challenges they had witnessed in their students or clients, how they interpreted them, and what remedies or responses they suggested.

 

The attempt at objectivity in the article is a breath of fresh air to me, but the study was very small (60 practitioners, 32 teacher-practitioners).  Also, the numbers here seem relatively high to me, although I've never asked a room full of retreat participants how many had such a history:

 

A minority of meditation practitioners in the study reported a prior psychiatric history (32%) or a history of trauma (43%).

 

... ELSEs were the most commonly reported experience in the somatic domain, with 62% (42/68) of practitioners voluntarily describing them. Nearly half of the experts (16/33, 48%) interviewed also mentioned working with meditators reporting ELSEs.  However, as with most other types of experiences documented in the VCE study, not everyone who reported an ELSE found it distressing or impairing, as some practitioners qualified for participation in the study on account of challenges in other domains.
 

 

Here's the part I thought might be relevant to "Emotions as the Path":

 

ELSEs (“energy-like somatic experiences”) have also been documented outside of the context of religious and contemplative systems and without the assumption that they are indicative of a kundalini awakening. Multiple ELSEs are part of a standardized taxonomy of experiences in schizophrenia spectrum disorders under the heading of “cenesthesias” (Gross et al. 2008; Parnas et al. 2005). “Migrating sensations” may be “fluctuating, wandering, circling or rising” throughout the body. Similarly, “sensations of movement, pulling and pressure” may be described as “vibrating”, “quivering”, or “simmering” among others. “Electrifying sensations” may appear as a “strange feeling, starting in the feet and radiating up to the head, like electricity”, and can be “horrible” or “quite pleasant”. “Thermic sensations” of heat, burning, or coldness may be “diffusely wave-like”, “ascending”, or “circumscribed” (Gross et al. 2008, pp. 64–77). Cenesthesias may also be accompanied by emotions and/or emotional release. Cenesthesias typically fluctuate in intensity and may last seconds, minutes, hours, days, or even months or years. In a sample of first-episode psychosis patients, cenesthesias were one of the most common symptoms, reported by the majority of patients (67%). Anomalous bodily experiences were significantly correlated with lower levels of physical activity (Nyboe et al. 2016).

 

(emphasis added)

 

 

For those who seek emotional release, meditative practices that are traditionally associated with “cenesthesias” may be a path, although I didn't get clarity from this article about what proportion of the people who experienced “cenesthesias” actually experienced emotional release. 

A frightening description of emotional release, followed by pyschological breakdown:
 

Affective changes were often noted in association with ELSEs and ranged in valence from strong positive affect to intense fear. ELSEs were sometimes accompanied by re-experiencing or uncovering traumatic memories, which some teachers attributed to a process of “opening up” to that which is “stored in the body”. Immediately following the onset of ELSEs, one Tibetan Buddhist practitioner reported having four months of “very gentle […] euphoria”. Then, on a retreat she experienced vivid imagery related to a childhood trauma, which she described as “beautiful” and as having left her “more embodied” and “less dissociated”. Over time, this had the effect of “opening up […] all the trauma of my life”, and this was followed by affective and cognitive changes that proved to be very challenging, such as an escalation of positive affect into “mania”, feelings of paranoia, and a frightening sense that “my body was being controlled”, eventually culminating in multiple hospitalizations for what she described as psychosis.

 

 

Just a little caution about a possible side-effect of meditative practices that are traditionally associated with “cenesthesias” and emotional release, there.