Emotions are the path

[Hannes]

On 9/13/2020 at 9:18 AM, Apech said:

 

Well we'll have to disagree because I still think emotion retains the sense of pushing away.

 

It's meaning is more moving up or expressing outwardly from within.

at least etymology wise, it is more accurately seen as "bubbling up". 

 

the difference lays between moving out or pushing away and the correct interpretation of moving out of which is more akin to surfacing from below or within.

 

The duality came later with Christianity.

There is no duality in emotions since they are the expressions of one's being and what is perceived as duality are just different internal and external influences.  

While your opening post reaches interesting conclusions, the way thereto is very intellectual. Is not the title that the emotions are the path? If so you stray from the path by putting things so rational.

 

Where I disagree is the point that I see that every being is already a whole being. One can observe ones emotions as a bystander and delve deeper and try to make sense of things. Sift through what is mundane, what is trauma and what is karmatic in nature.

In that process one may expose parts of ones soul.

From what I feel, the soul is a whole with many different parts that have ambitions and interests that are at odds with each other. One can see this as duality or ambiguity. But doing so, one fails to acknowledge the vastness and expansiveness of one's being. It is not unlike trying to project a 3D object in a 2D plane. You can only capture certain aspects at certain times.

 

The Ancient Greeks with their pantheon of gods depicted certain aspects of the soul. Where each god stands for a personification. If one takes the phrase "being under the influence of the gods" as being under the influence of certain aspects of our soul at times one draws a more genuine picture of the complexity. 

 

Shakespeare once said we are all actors in the play of life, but are we not also the stage for the play of our inner pantheon in which the gods voice and push up their part - emoveo-

The voices of the gods bubble up deep from within one's soul to tell the story within the story, as within so without and as above so below.

 

[Taomeow]

In taoism proper, the original version dealing with inner gods, not just emotions but whole organ-system-function complexes associated with particular thinking-feeling-acting processes are personified as gods.  A prime example is Sun Wukong, the Monkey King.  His name literally means "the One awakened to Emptiness," and the deeper meaning of Journey to the West (which popularized him) contains numerous instructions for internal alchemy practices.  The legend of the Monkey King is much older than the novel, and the original authorship is (arguably) attributed to none other than the founder of the Dragon Gate Sect, Qiu Chuji.  There is also a scripture written by Liu Yiming that explains the hidden meaning within Journey to the West called "Original Pointers to the Journey to the West." 

The Monkey King is often referred to as the heart-monkey [心猿].  Together with the horse-mind [意马], this is a core concept in taoist spiritual cultivation practices, representing the "material" to work with, the jumping and racing heart-mind (not two separate or opposite forces but aspects of the same one) that entered western interpretations as the monkey mind.  This monkey mind plays a central role in the xing-ming cultivation, a prerequisite on the Way.      

[dwai]

Why love is not an emotion — 

 

https://www.medhajournal.com/non-dual-awareness-is-without-attributes-but-what-about-love/

[dwai]

Double post — deleted 

Edited September 30, 2020 by dwai

[Apech]

17 minutes ago, dwai said:

Double post — deleted 

 

dualist

[dwai]

2 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

dualist

To become nondualist, duality must first be negated 😜

[old3bob]

superseded might be a better word than negated....

[old3bob]

taking 5 to go and get some fresh home baked and warm banana bread with walnuts...don't know if that is a lower or higher emotion or even an emotion at all after all of these convolutions. 

[dwai]

11 minutes ago, old3bob said:

taking 5 to go and get some fresh home baked and warm banana bread with walnuts...don't know if that is a lower or higher emotion or even an emotion at all after all of these convolutions. 

It is love pure and simple — verily a taste of the Self  

[manitou]

On 9/30/2020 at 8:02 AM, dwai said:

It is love pure and simple — verily a taste of the Self  

 

The same matter, different form. 

[Apech]

On 9/30/2020 at 8:51 AM, Hannes said:

 

It's meaning is more moving up or expressing outwardly from within.

at least etymology wise, it is more accurately seen as "bubbling up". 

 

the difference lays between moving out or pushing away and the correct interpretation of moving out of which is more akin to surfacing from below or within.

 

The duality came later with Christianity.

There is no duality in emotions since they are the expressions of one's being and what is perceived as duality are just different internal and external influences.  

While your opening post reaches interesting conclusions, the way thereto is very intellectual. Is not the title that the emotions are the path? If so you stray from the path by putting things so rational.

 

I think our intellect or rationality are the tools we use to define terms.  I find that discussions on here go much better if we first say what we means in clear terms, by the words we are using.  So I started by looking for a derivation of the word 'emotion'.  Because this is the subject doesn't mean we are limited to speaking emotionally about it.  It's not a straying from the path, in fact it's a necessary first step toward any kind clarity.

 

 

On 9/30/2020 at 8:51 AM, Hannes said:

Where I disagree is the point that I see that every being is already a whole being. One can observe ones emotions as a bystander and delve deeper and try to make sense of things. Sift through what is mundane, what is trauma and what is karmatic in nature.

In that process one may expose parts of ones soul.

From what I feel, the soul is a whole with many different parts that have ambitions and interests that are at odds with each other. One can see this as duality or ambiguity. But doing so, one fails to acknowledge the vastness and expansiveness of one's being. It is not unlike trying to project a 3D object in a 2D plane. You can only capture certain aspects at certain times.

 

The Ancient Greeks with their pantheon of gods depicted certain aspects of the soul. Where each god stands for a personification. If one takes the phrase "being under the influence of the gods" as being under the influence of certain aspects of our soul at times one draws a more genuine picture of the complexity. 

 

Shakespeare once said we are all actors in the play of life, but are we not also the stage for the play of our inner pantheon in which the gods voice and push up their part - emoveo-

The voices of the gods bubble up deep from within one's soul to tell the story within the story, as within so without and as above so below.

 

 

[Bindi]

On 30/09/2020 at 6:23 PM, Taomeow said:

In taoism proper, the original version dealing with inner gods, not just emotions but whole organ-system-function complexes associated with particular thinking-feeling-acting processes are personified as gods.  A prime example is Sun Wukong, the Monkey King.  His name literally means "the One awakened to Emptiness," and the deeper meaning of Journey to the West (which popularized him) contains numerous instructions for internal alchemy practices.  The legend of the Monkey King is much older than the novel, and the original authorship is (arguably) attributed to none other than the founder of the Dragon Gate Sect, Qiu Chuji.  There is also a scripture written by Liu Yiming that explains the hidden meaning within Journey to the West called "Original Pointers to the Journey to the West." 

The Monkey King is often referred to as the heart-monkey [心猿].  Together with the horse-mind [意马], this is a core concept in taoist spiritual cultivation practices, representing the "material" to work with, the jumping and racing heart-mind (not two separate or opposite forces but aspects of the same one) that entered western interpretations as the monkey mind.  This monkey mind plays a central role in the xing-ming cultivation, a prerequisite on the Way.      

 

From the American Buddhist Journal “Wisdom Quarterly”:

 

Monkey mind (or mind monkey) comes from the Chinese word xinyuan and the Sino-Japanese shin'en(心猿), literally, "heart-/mind-monkey").

 

It is a Buddhist term meaning "restless, unsettled, capricious, whimsical, fanciful, inconstant, confused, indecisive, uncontrollable." In addition to Buddhist writings -- including Chinese Chan and Japanese Zen (two Mahayana sects giving their pronunciations of the Pali term jhan'a and the Sanskrit dhyan'a), Consciousness-Only, Pure Land, and Shingon -- this "monkey mind" psychological metaphor was adopted in Taoism, Neo-Confucianism, poetry, drama, and literature.

 

"Mind-monkey" occurs in two reversible four-character idiomswith yima or iba (意馬), literally, "thought-/will-horse," most frequently used in Chinese xinyuanyima (心猿意馬) and Japanese ibashin'en (意馬心猿).

 

http://wisdomquarterly.blogspot.com/2014/07/monkey-mind-in-meditation.html

 

It’s not surprising to me that a Buddhist term doesn’t entertain the concept of two opposing forces, nor that it refers only to mind consciousness. Opposing forces are fundamental in Daoism of course. 

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

 

From the American Buddhist Journal “Wisdom Quarterly”:

 

Monkey mind (or mind monkey) comes from the Chinese word xinyuan and the Sino-Japanese shin'en(心猿), literally, "heart-/mind-monkey").

 

It is a Buddhist term meaning "restless, unsettled, capricious, whimsical, fanciful, inconstant, confused, indecisive, uncontrollable." In addition to Buddhist writings -- including Chinese Chan and Japanese Zen (two Mahayana sects giving their pronunciations of the Pali term jhan'a and the Sanskrit dhyan'a), Consciousness-Only, Pure Land, and Shingon -- this "monkey mind" psychological metaphor was adopted in Taoism, Neo-Confucianism, poetry, drama, and literature.

 

"Mind-monkey" occurs in two reversible four-character idiomswith yima or iba (意馬), literally, "thought-/will-horse," most frequently used in Chinese xinyuanyima (心猿意馬) and Japanese ibashin'en (意馬心猿).

 

http://wisdomquarterly.blogspot.com/2014/07/monkey-mind-in-meditation.html

 

It’s not surprising to me that a Buddhist term doesn’t entertain the concept of two opposing forces, nor that it refers only to mind consciousness. Opposing forces are fundamental in Daoism of course. 

 

Methinks it's a bit more complicated.

 

The Buddhist version you talk about is one of the interpretations, and a much later one, passed by Buddhists who traveled to China.  Who in their turn brought their own borrowing from Hinduism, Monkey-God Hanuman.

 

However, the arrival of Hindu and Buddhist monkey metaphors, concepts and gods was not into a monkeyless China.  Part of the inspiration for the image is directly traced to the White Monkey legends from the Chinese Chu kingdom (700–223 BC), which revered gibbons. These legends gave rise to stories and art eventually contributing to the Monkey King figure. People in Fuzhou were worshipping Monkey Gods long before they ever heard of Buddhism or Hinduism. There were 3 Monkey Saints of Lin Shui Palace, who were once Demons, being subdued by Empress Lin Shui Madam Chen Jing Gu. Dan Xia Da Sheng (丹霞大聖) - The Red Face Monkey Sage, Tong Tian Da Sheng (通天大聖)- The Black Face Monkey Sage, Shuang Shuang San Lang (爽爽三聖) - The White Face Monkey Sage.

 

The two traditional mainstream religions practiced in Fuzhou are Mahayana Buddhism and Taoism. Many people practice both religions simultaneously.  However, the origins of local religion date back centuries before Buddhism.

 

In any event, in alchemical taoism, it doesn't matter all that much what you call the forces you are working with.  Names are pointers in the general direction of what to expect of these forces' behavior, helpful only to the extent street signs might be helpful when you're looking for a particular address -- but telling you nothing whatsoever of the actual residents at that address.  My own school traditionally incorporated some buddhist terminology and interpretations into its verbal discourse, but when it comes to practical methods, it is one hundred percent taoist.  And the heart-mind jumping monkey/racing horse is relevant only as one of those forces, which no one can hope to access, much less alchemically transform, with verbal interpretations, and which a cultivator hopes to tame via the actual monkey see monkey do practice.  

Edited October 3, 2020 by Taomeow

[Bindi]

7 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Methinks it's a bit more complicated.

 

The Buddhist version you talk about is one of the interpretations, and a much later one, passed by Buddhists who traveled to China.  Who in their turn brought their own borrowing from Hinduism, Monkey-God Hanuman.

 

However, the arrival of Hindu and Buddhist monkey metaphors, concepts and gods was not into a monkeyless China.  Part of the inspiration for the image is directly traced to the White Monkey legends from the Chinese Chu kingdom (700–223 BC), which revered gibbons. These legends gave rise to stories and art eventually contributing to the Monkey King figure. People in Fuzhou were worshipping Monkey Gods long before they ever heard of Buddhism or Hinduism. There were 3 Monkey Saints of Lin Shui Palace, who were once Demons, being subdued by Empress Lin Shui Madam Chen Jing Gu. Dan Xia Da Sheng (丹霞大聖) - The Red Face Monkey Sage, Tong Tian Da Sheng (通天大聖)- The Black Face Monkey Sage, Shuang Shuang San Lang (爽爽三聖) - The White Face Monkey Sage.

 

Surely a worshipped Monkey God didn’t have the negative attributes (“restless, unsettled, capricious, whimsical, fanciful, inconstant, confused, indecisive and uncontrollable”) associated with the saying  heart-monkey [心猿] horse-mind [意马]. 

 

7 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

The two traditional mainstream religions practiced in Fuzhou are Mahayana Buddhism and Taoism. Many people practice both religions simultaneously.  However, the origins of local religion date back centuries before Buddhism.

 

In any event, in alchemical taoism, it doesn't matter all that much what you call the forces you are working with. 

 

It might not matter what you call the forces you are working with, but I think it does matter quite a lot how you understand these forces, and what you do with them. 

 

7 hours ago, Taomeow said:

Names are pointers in the general direction of what to expect of these forces' behavior, helpful only to the extent street signs might be helpful when you're looking for a particular address -- but telling you nothing whatsoever of the actual residents at that address.  My own school traditionally incorporated some buddhist terminology and interpretations into its verbal discourse, but when it comes to practical methods, it is one hundred percent taoist. 
 

 

For some it seems that Buddhism and Taoism are compatible, I’m not one of them though. You state that the material that is worked with (emotional and mental material?) is not two separate or opposite forces but aspects of the same one, yet the heart of Daoism is the perception of Yin and Yang as two opposite but complementary forces. 

 

7 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

And the heart-mind jumping monkey/racing horse is relevant only as one of those forces, which no one can hope to access, much less alchemically transform, with verbal interpretations, and which a cultivator hopes to tame via the actual monkey see monkey do practice.  

 

[Apech]

I think that one of the proofs of 'emotions are the path' is that the path is difficult.  It is difficult, it is not easy.  If one were to say for instance that the path was a system - a mechanical method - of say repeated ritual action, then it might be long, if a very large number of repetitions are stipulated but it would not be hard.  If one were to say that it was a matter of grasping certain concepts - and this alone would bring 'enlightenment' then again there might be a degree of intellectual effort required - but in the end it would be both simple and guaranteed. 

 

The path engages all of you, all your being, which includes most importantly your emotions and if you find yourself put off downcast, over-faced by the task, frustrated by lack of progress - these are all emotional states.  So even though you might argue that your True Self lies beyond all this, it is still the case that the task in hand is to address your present condition.  Your present condition being one that exists as a consequence of your being alive, of having a body, of living a life in the 'real' world.  In fact you could argue that the task in hand is to align your actual self with your true self.  By True Self I mean your essential being which arises directly from the power that makes it all, luminous, knowing and loving.  By your actual self I mean the complete assembly of the sum of mental, emotional and physical conditions which form the being you possess day to day.

 

If my words seem inexact it is because I am trying to avoid the technical language of any system (Buddhism, Daoism or whatever).

 

 

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

 

Surely a worshipped Monkey God didn’t have the negative attributes (“restless, unsettled, capricious, whimsical, fanciful, inconstant, confused, indecisive and uncontrollable”) associated with the saying  heart-monkey [心猿] horse-mind [意马]. 

 

 

Many taoist deities are far from saintly and bland, all they have to do to be worshipped is to be true to their nature.  The attributes you mention (with the exception of "indecisive" which is yin within that list of yang attributes) are not "negative," they are "positive" -- yang.  Taoist polarity of negativity and positivity doesn't have the idea of "negativity" as "badness" inherent in it.  These are all expressions of active yang nature, which can be "bad" only when not counterbalanced by receptive yin forces.  Inconstancy and capriciousness, e.g., are physiological features of the healthy heart -- when it acquires a constant, monotonous, mechanical rhythm instead, it is a medical indicator of impending death within 24 hours.  The heart is a strange attractor, both mathematically and spiritually.  Its rhythm fluctuates continuously around a central constant ("attractor").  Stillness within movement which we seek and, with successful practice, find.    

 

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

 

It might not matter what you call the forces you are working with, but I think it does matter quite a lot how you understand these forces, and what you do with them. 

 

Of course.  Our understanding rests on the foundation of an interconnected, holistic system which is not self-contradictory and is fully applicable to all aspects of practice.  

 

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

For some it seems that Buddhism and Taoism are compatible, I’m not one of them though.
 

 

 Neither am I.  I "tolerate" only some shared terminology borrowed due to historical cross-pollination, but even that -- "niwan" for "nirvana," "karma" instead of "ganying" and the like -- is understood by a taoist very differently, and applied practically the taoist way anyway.  So, maybe not 100% strict with terminology (like I said earlier, pointers are pointers, the street sign is not the residence at that address, the map is not the territory) but very strict with ideology.   Which is not just different but in many respects opposite.

 

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

 You state that the material that is worked with (emotional and mental material?) is not two separate or opposite forces but aspects of the same one, yet the heart of Daoism is the perception of Yin and Yang as two opposite but complementary forces. 

 

  

The heart-mind of taoism is a yang aspect of the whole -- Fire, shen, Horse, Monkey, Soaring Dragon, Li trigram, there's many names but the opposite is sought in the yin aspects of the whole -- Water, jing, Turtle, Crouching Tiger, Kan trigram...  There's true Water within Fire, there's true Fire within Water, there's a process whereby they unite.  Opposites and unity are aspects of the process.             

[Bindi]

33 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

Many taoist deities are far from saintly and bland, all they have to do to be worshipped is to be true to their nature.  The attributes you mention (with the exception of "indecisive" which is yin within that list of yang attributes) are not "negative," they are "positive" -- yang.  Taoist polarity of negativity and positivity doesn't have the idea of "negativity" as "badness" inherent in it.  These are all expressions of active yang nature, which can be "bad" only when not counterbalanced by receptive yin forces.  Inconstancy and capriciousness, e.g., are physiological features of the healthy heart -- when it acquires a constant, monotonous, mechanical rhythm instead, it is a medical indicator of impending death within 24 hours.  The heart is a strange attractor, both mathematically and spiritually.  Its rhythm fluctuates continuously around a central constant ("attractor").  Stillness within movement which we seek and, with successful practice, find.    

 

But, the monkey king finally learns about virtues only when he learns the teachings of Buddhism. With your logic virtues are then receptive yin forces? So the monkey king is unbalanced and has to find balance in Buddhist teachings? Still sounds intrinsically pro-Buddhist to me. 

 

33 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

Of course.  Our understanding rests on the foundation of an interconnected, holistic system which is not self-contradictory and is fully applicable to all aspects of practice.  

 

 

 Neither am I.  I "tolerate" only some shared terminology borrowed due to historical cross-pollination, but even that -- "niwan" for "nirvana," "karma" instead of "ganying" and the like -- is understood by a taoist very differently, and applied practically the taoist way anyway.  So, maybe not 100% strict with terminology (like I said earlier, pointers are pointers, the street sign is not the residence at that address, the map is not the territory) but very strict with ideology.   Which is not just different but in many respects opposite.

 

  

The heart-mind of taoism is a yang aspect of the whole -- Fire, shen, Horse, Monkey, Soaring Dragon, Li trigram, there's many names but the opposite is sought in the yin aspects of the whole -- Water, jing, Turtle, Crouching Tiger, Kan trigram...  There's true Water within Fire, there's true Fire within Water, there's a process whereby they unite.  Opposites and unity are aspects of the process.             

The heart-mind of Taoism with its yang fire character sounds more like what I would consider to be ‘mental’, and it’s opposite, yin and it’s water character, is what I would refer to as emotional. 

[Taomeow]

3 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

But, the monkey king finally learns about virtues only when he learns the teachings of Buddhism. With your logic virtues are then receptive yin forces? So the monkey king is unbalanced and has to find balance in Buddhist teachings? Still sounds intrinsically pro-Buddhist to me. 

 

 

You are talking about the Monkey King of the popular level of the novel Journey to the West.  Therein, the whole story is about a conspiracy by a bodhisattva who converted to Taoism and became a taoist deity but simultaneously retained her Buddhist ties to facilitate the conquest of China by Buddhism.   A double agent, so to speak.  Here's an example of how things you and I avoid can however happen even in the celestial realm ))

 

3 hours ago, Bindi said:

The heart-mind of Taoism with its yang fire character sounds more like what I would consider to be ‘mental’, and it’s opposite, yin and it’s water character, is what I would refer to as emotional. 

    

Different emotions, in taoism, have their seat in various organs of the body, and manifest as harmonious and healthy when the whole cycle of wuxing or Five Phases ('elements') is balanced, or as harmful when it isn't.  The mind is thought of as the extension of the heart and harbors a kind of steady tempered Joy when balanced, and all its unhealthy manifestations when thrown off balance, including all the boisterous devil-might-care behaviors characterizing the Monkey King of the novel, selfish joy at others' expense. 

 

A manifestation of that kind of harmful Joy of the heart-mind is, e.g., the delight of our modern scientists who arrive at a grand mental accomplishment and experience intense intellectual pleasure -- their mind soars! -- while the price of this accomplishment may be torturing hundreds of millions of lab animals, or killing hundreds of thousands of people with the nuclear bomb, or destroying countless families glued to the screens of their computers and cell phones.  Thought is the continuation of the emotion of the heart in taoism.  All emotions, in taoism, are an interplay of yin-yang, wuxing, and other fundamental factors, some are predominantly yang in their inherent nature and others are predominantly yin -- working harmoniously as a unit when all organs of the body and all its shens (spirits) are healthy.  It's fascinating, actually, but too broad a subject to cover in a forum post.  If you ever get interested, I can recommend some sources for a deeper take on how the whole enchilada works in taoism.  And then there's alchemical taoism that turns it upside down.   

[Bindi]

6 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

You are talking about the Monkey King of the popular level of the novel Journey to the West.  Therein, the whole story is about a conspiracy by a bodhisattva who converted to Taoism and became a taoist deity but simultaneously retained her Buddhist ties to facilitate the conquest of China by Buddhism.   A double agent, so to speak.  Here's an example of how things you and I avoid can however happen even in the celestial realm ))

 

    

Different emotions, in taoism, have their seat in various organs of the body, and manifest as harmonious and healthy when the whole cycle of wuxing or Five Phases ('elements') is balanced, or as harmful when it isn't.  The mind is thought of as the extension of the heart and harbors a kind of steady tempered Joy when balanced, and all its unhealthy manifestations when thrown off balance, including all the boisterous devil-might-care behaviors characterizing the Monkey King of the novel, selfish joy at others' expense. 

 

A manifestation of that kind of harmful Joy of the heart-mind is, e.g., the delight of our modern scientists who arrive at a grand mental accomplishment and experience intense intellectual pleasure -- their mind soars! -- while the price of this accomplishment may be torturing hundreds of millions of lab animals, or killing hundreds of thousands of people with the nuclear bomb, or destroying countless families glued to the screens of their computers and cell phones.  Thought is the continuation of the emotion of the heart in taoism.  All emotions, in taoism, are an interplay of yin-yang, wuxing, and other fundamental factors, some are predominantly yang in their inherent nature and others are predominantly yin -- working harmoniously as a unit when all organs of the body and all its shens (spirits) are healthy.  It's fascinating, actually, but too broad a subject to cover in a forum post.  If you ever get interested, I can recommend some sources for a deeper take on how the whole enchilada works in taoism.  And then there's alchemical taoism that turns it upside down.   

 

Thanks but I’ve never been drawn to the Chinese way of understanding emotions, I prefer to keep things very simple. 
 

I could agree with your statement though - “Thought is the continuation of the emotion of the heart in taoism”, if it was followed by its opposite, ‘Emotion is the continuation of the thought of the head.’ Endlessly looping, like the Taijitu symbol. 

[Taomeow]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Thanks but I’ve never been drawn to the Chinese way of understanding emotions, I prefer to keep things very simple. 
 

 

Don't we all.  But the way I came to the taoist understanding of emotions was not theoretical.  The theory was a later discovery.  Empirically, I was in trouble, and working through emotions "the right way" improved how my body worked, not just how I felt or thought -- changed my basic physiology, metabolism, and vitals -- things measurable and verifiable regardless of what I "believe."  My resting heart rate dropped by 30 beats per minute and stayed there for the next 20 years, blood pressure regulated itself to rock solid 110/70 and stayed there, body temperature (which was permanently slightly elevated before, nearly all my life) dropped by 3 degrees Fahrenheit and stayed there, I grew taller by an inch (as an adult who'd long stopped growing before), stuff like that.  

 

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

I could agree with your statement though - “Thought is the continuation of the emotion of the heart in taoism”, if it was followed by its opposite, ‘Emotion is the continuation of the thought of the head.’ Endlessly looping, like the Taijitu symbol. 

 

This is only true for emotions that are disconnected from the body and originate in the neocortex.  I mentioned them before (don't remember in which thread though), the so-called "as-if loops" discovered in the brain by modern cognitive neuroscience.  Emotions of this kind are not healthy and, as the name suggests, not real, in the sense that real ones always start out in the body and travel to the mind from the body -- before being fed back to the body without looping in an endless cycle.  They begin in the body, inform the mind, take feedback to the body, the body expresses them according to instructions based on the mind's feedback...  end of emotion.  And not vice versa. 

 

The as-if loops, by contrast, can indeed run indefinitely -- they have no resolution and that's why they persist in a reverberating circuit that is, for all purposes, inflammatory.  A mind disconnected (by repression, in a typical case) from normal communication with the body is chronically inflamed (remember Fire?)  That's the sick monkey mind.  And it can never find true relief if it remains in this disconnected, looped-onto-itself "higher" state.

 

Edited October 4, 2020 by Taomeow

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

 

Don't we all.  But the way I came to the taoist understanding of emotions was not theoretical.  The theory was a later discovery.  Empirically, I was in trouble, and working through emotions "the right way" improved how my body worked, not just how I felt or thought -- changed my basic physiology, metabolism, and vitals -- things measurable and verifiable regardless of what I "believe."  My resting heart rate dropped by 30 beats per minute and stayed there for the next 20 years, blood pressure regulated itself to rock solid 110/70 and stayed there, body temperature (which was permanently slightly elevated before, nearly all my life) dropped by 3 degrees Fahrenheit and stayed there, I grew taller by an inch (as an adult who'd long stopped growing before), stuff like that.  

 

Sounds good, what was the ‘right way’ of working through emotions for you? 

 

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

 

This is only true for emotions that are disconnected from the body and originate in the neocortex.  I mentioned them before (don't remember in which thread though), the so-called "as-if loops" discovered in the brain by modern cognitive neuroscience.  Emotions of this kind are not healthy and, as the name suggests, not real, in the sense that real ones always start out in the body and travel to the mind from the body -- before being fed back to the body without looping in an endless cycle.  They begin in the body, inform the mind, take feedback to the body, the body expresses them according to instructions based on the mind's feedback...  end of emotion.  And not vice versa. 

 

The as-if loops, by contrast, can indeed run indefinitely -- they have no resolution and that's why they persist in a reverberating circuit that is, for all purposes, inflammatory.  A mind disconnected (by repression, in a typical case) from normal communication with the body is chronically inflamed (remember Fire?)  That's the sick monkey mind.  And it can never find true relief if it remains in this disconnected, looped-onto-itself "higher" state.

 

From a modern psychological perspective:

 

Quote

 

Where do emotions come from?

In almost all cases, it is our thoughts that create our emotions. Sometimes our unconscious mind and senses are picking up ques from our environment that trigger emotions, such as reading a person’s body language or facial expression and having an automatic emotional response or sensing danger and having an automatic fear response. However, the rest of the time it is NOT the outside world or the situation that causes our emotional reaction. It is the mental filter that the situation passes through—aka, our interpretation—that then causes our emotional reaction to the situation.

 

I’m not proposing that this model is 100% correct, but I cannot agree that “thought is the continuation of the emotion of the heart” is 100% correct either. 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2020 by Bindi

[Michael Sternbach]

On 30/09/2020 at 12:23 PM, Taomeow said:

In taoism proper, the original version dealing with inner gods, not just emotions but whole organ-system-function complexes associated with particular thinking-feeling-acting processes are personified as gods.

 

Regardless of how we look at the rather complex question of the origin of our emotions, I consider this understanding of the unity of thinking/feeling/body systems/acting key to the holistic understanding of our nature. It is not arbitrary, but follows rather specific patterns studied e.g. in TCM and Western astrology.

 

All these: thought, emotion, body, action - each on their respective level - lend expression to forces that we can indeed think of as the deities or  archetypes that underlie (or stand above!) the structure of the manifested world and that pertain to what is seen as spirit in the metaphysical systems of various cultures. 

[Apech]

On 10/4/2020 at 4:20 AM, Bindi said:

 

Sounds good, what was the ‘right way’ of working through emotions for you? 

 

From a modern psychological perspective:

 

I’m not proposing that this model is 100% correct, but I cannot agree that “thought is the continuation of the emotion of the heart” is 100% correct either. 

 

 

 

I started a thread a while back in which I tried to explore the idea that there is no singular type of 'thought' but that this word is used to cover a number of different activities/functions.  I think it is possible to have a purely objective, cold, functional thought - for instance if you think about some mechanical process but generally thoughts carry some emotional charge with them - for instance we like or dislike to a certain extent, sometimes strongly, sometimes weakly, the subject matter of our thought.  I think the point is that our mind/body/spirit is a continuum, 'it' , viewed as an 'it' or 'we' viewed as ourselves has continuous motion which is actually continuous emotional content.  This continuum precipitates body but then body stores content.  When we experience something it triggers all resonate stored content and the levels of 'charge' in that content vary from person to person, generating a variety of subjective experience and response.

 

'The path' means the way in which we as beings seek on the one hand self-knowledge and on the other hand perpetuation of existence (immortality).  The ground  for understanding and for liberating ourselves from degenerative processes is in the emotional field.  So in this sense emotions are the path.

 

 

[dwai]

49 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

I started a thread a while back in which I tried to explore the idea that there is no singular type of 'thought' but that this word is used to cover a number of different activities/functions.  I think it is possible to have a purely objective, cold, functional thought - for instance if you think about some mechanical process but generally thoughts carry some emotional charge with them - for instance we like or dislike to a certain extent, sometimes strongly, sometimes weakly, the subject matter of our thought.  I think the point is that our mind/body/spirit is a continuum, 'it' , viewed as an 'it' or 'we' viewed as ourselves has continuous motion which is actually continuous emotional content.  This continuum precipitates body but then body stores content.  When we experience something it triggers all resonate stored content and the levels of 'charge' in that content vary from person to person, generating a variety of subjective experience and response.

 

'The path' means the way in which we as beings seek on the one hand self-knowledge and on the other hand perpetuation of existence (immortality).  The ground  for understanding and for liberating ourselves from degenerative processes is in the emotional field.  So in this sense emotions are the path.

 

 

I think the yogic term for thought is quite apropos — “chitta vritti” — modification in the mind. Any modification of the mind is essentially a thought — be it a distinct object, or feeling or even emotion. They are different only in the part of the inner-faculties being affected (mind-stream, intellect, ego or impression/memory bank). They are combinations of the one or more of these in the mind-stream. 

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I started a thread a while back in which I tried to explore the idea that there is no singular type of 'thought' but that this word is used to cover a number of different activities/functions.  I think it is possible to have a purely objective, cold, functional thought - for instance if you think about some mechanical process but generally thoughts carry some emotional charge with them - for instance we like or dislike to a certain extent, sometimes strongly, sometimes weakly, the subject matter of our thought.  I think the point is that our mind/body/spirit is a continuum, 'it' , viewed as an 'it' or 'we' viewed as ourselves has continuous motion which is actually continuous emotional content.  This continuum precipitates body but then body stores content.  When we experience something it triggers all resonate stored content and the levels of 'charge' in that content vary from person to person, generating a variety of subjective experience and response.

 

'The path' means the way in which we as beings seek on the one hand self-knowledge and on the other hand perpetuation of existence (immortality).  The ground  for understanding and for liberating ourselves from degenerative processes is in the emotional field.  So in this sense emotions are the path.

 

 

 

How to Sort Your Thoughts From Your Feelings: And Why it Matters

By Jonice Webb PhD 

 

 

We human beings are equipped, separately, with thoughts and feelings for a reason. They actually originate in separate parts of the brain. Thoughts are a product of your cerebral cortex, whereas feelings originate from your limbic system, an area buried far more deeply in your brain. Your thoughts offer you information and logic, whereas your emotions offer you direction, motivation and connection.

 

When you’re able to coordinate these two influential forces to work together, you are harnessing the power of your brain.

Yet coordinating these two separate-but-related processes inside ourselves is definitely not easy. Most of us don’t do a great job of it. Some people are more thought-dominant, meaning they rely more on their thoughts; others are more feeling-dominant. 

 

It’s especially hard to make your thoughts and feelings work together when they do not agree. Most of us often feel one way about something that we think the opposite way about.

 

...

So how do you harness and coordinate your own thoughts and feelings? How can you blend them in a healthy way to make them work for you?

Five Ways to Separate Your Thoughts From Your Feelings & Use Them Both 

1. Recognize that your thoughts and feelings are separate and can be different and even opposing. It’s normal, and it’s OK.
2. Don’t just ask yourself what you think about things in your life. Instead, once you’re as clear as possible on what you think, ask yourself what you feel.
3. If your thoughts and feelings match, you will enjoy extra clarity.
4. If your thoughts and feelings are complicated and/or at odds with each other, then consider which, in this situation, is more trustworthy. What parts of your feelings about this are more helpful? Why do you feel this way? What do your thoughts have to offer here? Are there some points on which your thoughts and feelings agree?
5. Use your feelings to inform your thoughts, and use your thoughts to manage your feelings.
6. If you are like most people, you are probably more in touch with your thoughts than your feelings. So learn more about your feelings, how they work and how to manage them.