Emotions are the path

[Michael Sternbach]

4 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

Mettafizzical 'R Us.  I get that.  What I have a little trouble understanding with deities, is that it seems like such a dual concept.  That there is something 'other' to be emanated or worshipped.  The archetype certainly explains the concept .  But I note you highlighted IN FORM OF in your post.  Do you think there is actual form (albeit on a different dimension or density) that somehow bridges the gap between the physical and the metaphysical?

 

In the view of ancient natural philosophy (whose revival in a modernized form I strongly advocate), it's the subtle realm of the Soul of the World that bridges the gap between the Spirit of the World in its celestial Divinity and the terrestrial plane that we are so familiar with and that is essentially regarded as its physical body. (Beware that in the old texts, sometimes "spirit" and "soul" are used with reversed meanings, however.)

 

Now as Man is considered a microcosm that contains all the constituents of the macrocosm en miniature, you will find the same kind of three-fold existence on both levels: body, soul and spirit.

 

Further breakdowns are possible - and endless variations thereof have been attempted in many metaphysical systems - but the trinary model I outlined is a basic conception that can probably count as the common denominator of them all.

[manitou]

20 hours ago, Nungali said:

I am above you and in you. My ecstasy is in yours. My joy is to see your joy.

 

 

Sometimes when I see something particularly beautiful, I talk to the essence within me, fully in awareness that it is looking through my eyes to see that which it is.

[manitou]

19 hours ago, Apech said:

There's something very different about Abrahamic thinking from any kind of pagan, mystical or shamanism - all of which allow for multiple divine entities and expressions - because they have an idea of the numinous as being real and manifest while Judeo-Christian thinking produces a distant and austere God beyond everything.

 

 

 

Well said, IMO.  And that is the most difficult part of the practice, as I see it.  Eliminating the fear and the Thou Shalt Have No Other Gods Before Me thing.  This shedding process can take a long time. 

 

That's a very good point about the numinous being real and manifest.  It takes it 'out of the distance' and bring it into the home.  I think that the wonderful thing is that every single aspect of life (seemingly good or seemingly bad) is all a part of it; and realizing that consciousness is the one thing that makes me feel absolutely centered and balanced.   It does stand to reason that deities representing different qualities or conditions would be most helpful if there were multiple templates from which to model one's own behavior - particularly at the beginning stages of the path.

 

But let me ask this.  Does one integrate all these templates at some point in time?  Is there value in hanging on to them?  To me it doesn't seem like there would be, once the Consciousness is found.  But maybe there is, and if hanging on to a particular deity helps someone correct their own actions or lead to higher thinking.

[Apech]

36 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

Well said, IMO.  And that is the most difficult part of the practice, as I see it.  Eliminating the fear and the Thou Shalt Have No Other Gods Before Me thing.  This shedding process can take a long time. 

 

That's a very good point about the numinous being real and manifest.  It takes it 'out of the distance' and bring it into the home.  I think that the wonderful thing is that every single aspect of life (seemingly good or seemingly bad) is all a part of it; and realizing that consciousness is the one thing that makes me feel absolutely centered and balanced.   It does stand to reason that deities representing different qualities or conditions would be most helpful if there were multiple templates from which to model one's own behavior - particularly at the beginning stages of the path.

 

But let me ask this.  Does one integrate all these templates at some point in time?  Is there value in hanging on to them?  To me it doesn't seem like there would be, once the Consciousness is found.  But maybe there is, and if hanging on to a particular deity helps someone correct their own actions or lead to higher thinking.

 

From my own experience I don't work with deities very much - but when I do I notice that they have the ability to take you beyond the boundaries of your own mind.  This can be disconcerting but very helpful.  I am reminded about DJ's warnings to CC not to go to world of inorganic beings.  So I wouldn't recommend total reliance on a tutelary deity - but I would recommend allowing them in at certain times for an extra boost, broadening of view or to move you beyond a barrier that you are struggling with.  But always dissolve and return to consciousness itself and integrate into yourself whatever experience is given.

 

 

[Nungali]

21 hours ago, Apech said:

 

You're going to call me picky here but if your education was convent school it was catholic and not puritanical (which is hard line protestant) - there is a difference I think.

 

 

 

 

 

I was going to be picky too and comment on D's  example of some of the pain in life  ;  the fizzy bubbles in coca cola  that sting your tongue    .....

 

22 hours ago, Nungali said:

 ...  Well, its never REAL bad , although some seem to think it was  ( but most of them are 'Princesses'  wrapped in cotton wool )...

 

 

But that might seem uncharitable     

 

Apech ;     "   I like the pain/pleasure thing - that's very non-dual   "

 

 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2020 by Nungali

[Nungali]

21 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Right.  I'm sure Michael will answer this but I thought I'd put in my 2 cents worth.

 

We have this problem us Westerners because no matter what our upbringing (mine was English humanist therefore no real religion) our thinking is run through with Judeo-Christian ideas and themes.  Its inescapable I think.  In fact the Christian way of thinking has even infected the eastern systems which we receive.  There's always the feeling of the big mono-God which must lurk behind the divine.  That it is somehow superior to think that there is one true reality rather than a non-dual pluralism.  There's something very different about Abrahamic thinking from any kind of pagan, mystical or shamanism - all of which allow for multiple divine entities and expressions - because they have an idea of the numinous as being real and manifest while Judeo-Christian thinking produces a distant and austere God beyond everything.

 

I'm not expressing my self very well because I've just drunk a bottle of red wine   But I think even terms like archetypes suggests that the entities which are gods are somehow symbolic or abstract and not real.  

 

 

 

For me its all solved by the concept of  'neter / neteru ' , but that's just my take on neteru  .  What is your take on 'neter / neteru '  ?

[Nungali]

21 hours ago, Apech said:

By the way I'm really enjoying this thread and I'm glad I started it - thank you everyone for your contributions so far and please do continue

 

 

a bottle of red wine eh ?        

 

 

[Nungali]

20 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

Puritans are hard line Protestants who like to wear black, have no statues or images and are obsessed by hell fire - like the Pilgrim Fathers who went to America.  Catholics like dressing up and have lots of saints ... they are big on guilt tho' as you say.  Their priests are rather fond of boys.  There is nothing weird or fucked up about Christianity

 

 

 

It must be time for this again ! 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

Sometimes when I see something particularly beautiful, I talk to the essence within me, fully in awareness that it is looking through my eyes to see that which it is.

 

Essentially that is my central spiritual practice - a type of worship .  A fuller realisation of it  ( meaning  I was able to put it into  an everyday meaningful practice ) came after , of all things , my 2nd degree Wicca initiation .  Its also the main reason for incarnation (collectively , not individually, where it IS this but also one's individual expression and 'calling ' )  in being  ;  'the eyes and ears  ( and emotions and  feelings  )  of the Gods .  Its a type of 'offering everything up to God ' .  

 

"  Would you like to go to the beach today, maybe we will see whales and dolphins again? We can look out over the vast expanse of the Pacific Ocean and dive in and feel the cool water on our body and be in the surging waves .  Then we can lie on the warm sand and feel the vast but distant Sun   shining down upon us .  Later I will make  a nice dinner and we can lie out in the garden and look up to the myriad stars and ponder my place in the Universe  "

 

 ...  no , that ain't my GF I am talking to .     

 

- some people have asked me  ' Dont you get lonely living by yourself ? '     Nope ! 

 

[Apech]

18 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

For me its all solved by the concept of  'neter / neteru ' , but that's just my take on neteru  .  What is your take on 'neter / neteru '  ?

 

That would be a long post.

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, manitou said:

 

 

Well said, IMO.  And that is the most difficult part of the practice, as I see it.  Eliminating the fear and the Thou Shalt Have No Other Gods Before Me thing.  This shedding process can take a long time. 

 

That's a very good point about the numinous being real and manifest.  It takes it 'out of the distance' and bring it into the home.  I think that the wonderful thing is that every single aspect of life (seemingly good or seemingly bad) is all a part of it; and realizing that consciousness is the one thing that makes me feel absolutely centered and balanced.   It does stand to reason that deities representing different qualities or conditions would be most helpful if there were multiple templates from which to model one's own behavior - particularly at the beginning stages of the path.

 

But let me ask this.  Does one integrate all these templates at some point in time?  Is there value in hanging on to them?  To me it doesn't seem like there would be, once the Consciousness is found.  But maybe there is, and if hanging on to a particular deity helps someone correct their own actions or lead to higher thinking.

 

 

Short answer  ......    maybe .

 

 

 

 

But you know me , I'm a windbag , so longer answer .....   For me the are sort of integrated at all points of time and at the same time as we see them as 'templates' .  Its like stages of initiation of   the map of The Tree of Life ; its all set out lineal , but often  some things are happening at the same time , and arts of one thing might be accomplished before  other parts . We might have a proclivity in an advanced area or a block in a basic stage . 

 

I would not advocate 'hanging on to '   ( if that means  in a permanent , exclusive  attachment ) but   'working with'  / adoration / aspiration / etc  with specific deities  is a very important and central part of magic  (and religion ) in the western tradition. Although its technique is said to be the most dangerous for the magician . Why is that so ? Because the ritual requires one acts like and believes in the one deity while maintaining one's  'magicians centre'   - a tricky balance ; not enough one way and its an empty ritual, too much and you risk 'falling into religion' .

 

It cam be used to correct actions or to develop skills, realisations , states ,  'trances'   (modes of consciousness )

 

I can attest that it is one of the more powerful forms of magical  ( or psychological ) technology that leads to physical results.     

 

 

 

0. This is the Book of Uniting Himself to a particular Deity by devotion

 

https://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/lib175.htm

 

[Nungali]

17 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

That would be a long post.

 

Good .   Maybe tomorrow when the wine wears off ?

 

In the meantime ,  do you think  the (or your ) concept of neteru  solves the concept referred to ?

[Apech]

17 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Good .   Maybe tomorrow when the wine wears off ?

 

In the meantime ,  do you think  the (or your ) concept of neteru  solves the concept referred to ?

 

 

I think I might have to go No-vember this year cos I'm downing a lot of this red wine ... I love it but hate any hint of dependence.

 

yes the Neteru (Netjerw, Netcherw) - which is the Egyptian word for god/gods for those who don't know - pre-dates and does solve 'the problem'.  But for us, the problem is so very invasive that even when we think we have stepped outside the Judeo-Christian mind-set - quite often we haven't.  I've just read a book by Tom Holland called Dominion (it was recommended by a Bhutanese Lama) which makes the point very succinctly that even Atheism, Humanism, Secularism and so on are Christian ideas.  As are things like Hinduism, Buddhism and Daoism ... funnily enough.  Christianity is fucking weird.  Truly.

 

As cultivators/practitioners we have a real relationship to the numinous ... and to go back to the subject of this thread it is essentially an emotional relationship ... I think this is because the strands of energy which move through us from the infinite kind of spark us off ... there are carrier waves which we primarily feel and then image to ourselves.  So our primary relationship to energy is real in this immediate sense.  We have our own personal emotional memories which we have to deal with, process, assimilate ... but part of that is realising that the energy in those emotions is the same as that radiating from the non-dual core.

 

(I may have burbled on a bit too long - so forgive  ).

[manitou]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

 

From my own experience I don't work with deities very much - but when I do I notice that they have the ability to take you beyond the boundaries of your own mind.  This can be disconcerting but very helpful.  I am reminded about DJ's warnings to CC not to go to world of inorganic beings. 

 

YESSSS!

 

Thank you for the connection and the reminder!  Although I don't remember so much the inorganic deities as much as him being in that huge cavernous tunnelley thing reminiscent of a brain or a mushroom.  Yes, he did stay a little long at the fair, if I recall.  Thanks again, 'Apache'!
 

 

 

4 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

 

So I wouldn't recommend total reliance on a tutelary deity - but I would recommend allowing them in at certain times for an extra boost, broadening of view or to move you beyond a barrier that you are struggling with.  But always dissolve and return to consciousness itself and integrate into yourself whatever experience is given.

 

 

 

 

Excellent advice, I believe!  An added boost is a perfect way of seeing it.  I do have mental CC images that might pop in when necessary.  And you're right, it's integrated in there with the Dao.  I'm so glad you remembered my CC roots.

[manitou]

4 hours ago, Nungali said:

"  Would you like to go to the beach today, maybe we will see whales and dolphins again? We can look out over the vast expanse of the Pacific Ocean and dive in and feel the cool water on our body and be in the surging waves .  Then we can lie on the warm sand and feel the vast but distant Sun   shining down upon us .  Later I will make  a nice dinner and we can lie out in the garden and look up to the myriad stars and ponder my place in the Universe  "

 

 

Which shoes should I wear?

[manitou]

4 hours ago, Nungali said:

- some people have asked me  ' Dont you get lonely living by yourself ? '     Nope ! 

 

 

 

I guess this is why it is said that a shaman is never alone.  The awareness of the aliveness of everything.  I talk to my car.

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, manitou said:

 

Which shoes should I wear?

 

 

Little magical slippers that have the flames of hell licking up the sides   from the  soul  sole on a black background   that fade to blue then clouds,  then dark blue /blackindigo with stars that are little diamonds  sewn in,   towards the top .

 

And pairs of miniature lapis lazuli  carved dove wings above the heel .

 

 

PS.   Don/ t forget the diadem

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

I guess this is why it is said that a shaman is never alone.  The awareness of the aliveness of everything.  I talk to my car.

 

 

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

[manitou]

12 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

 

 

  Hide contents

 

 

 

 

 

Where do you find this stuff???  

 

 

   

12 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Little magical slippers that have the flames of hell licking up the sides   from the  soul  sole on a black background   that fade to blue then clouds,  then dark blue /blackindigo with stars that are little diamonds  sewn in,   towards the top .

 

And pairs of miniature lapis lazuli  carved dove wings above the heel .

 

 

PS.   Don/ t forget the diadem

 

 

I do have them, with the exception of the miniature lapis lazuli.  My are carved with cheese.  Is that okay?

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

Where do you find this stuff???  

 

 

At the local  disco .

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

   

 

 

I do have them, with the exception of the miniature lapis lazuli.  My are carved with cheese.  Is that okay?

 

 

Carved with cheese  ? ? ?     Isnt  that a little soft to do carving with ?    I mean , some hippies here had a problem with me suggesting ancient limestone was carved with diorite pounders  ....  but cheese  ?    

 

 

[manitou]

22 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

At the local  disco .

 

 

 

 

 

 

Carved with cheese  ? ? ?     Isnt  that a little soft to do carving with ?    I mean , some hippies here had a problem with me suggesting ancient limestone was carved with diorite pounders  ....  but cheese  ?    

 

 

 

Yes.  A hard block of limberger works particularly well.  I do wear perfume on those days, tho.

[Nungali]

What's happened to Apech ?   he drank a bottle of red , went to crash out and now  .......  gone for 2 days !  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

      

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

What's happened to Apech ?   he drank a bottle of red , went to crash out and now  .......  gone for 2 days !  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

      

 

 

[Apech]

By the way ... shall we get back on topic - there's a lot more to say I reckon.

[Nungali]

Not another one ! 

 

On 09/10/2020 at 8:48 AM, Apech said:

 

 

I think I might have to go No-vember this year cos I'm downing a lot of this red wine ... I love it but hate any hint of dependence.

 

 

Well, I suppose you still have  2 weeks of  octoberfest(ering)  to go .