Emotions are the path

[Nungali]

2 minutes ago, Apech said:

By the way ... shall we get back on topic - there's a lot more to say I reckon.

 

yes please .  (we where just whiling away the time awaiting your return .

 

You know what thats like .

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

I wanted to note this before regarding emotions and magical practice. 

 

" Inflame thyself with prayer "   -   a popular magical axiom . Its more the power of inflaming than the power of prayer .

 

I remember reading Lom Milo Duquette and his book on evocation. He tried a few times, not much result. But then later, when he was in a real panic  about his situation and family and tried it in desparation, it worked and his whole life turned around (according to him )

 

I cited Liber Astarte before regarding 'deity' ,  this oart might be worth noting regarding emotions ;

 

"Concerning the Enflaming of the Heart. Now learn that thy methods are dry, one and all. Intellectual exercises, moral exercises, they are not Love. Yet as a man, rubbing two dry sticks together for long, suddenly found a spark, so also from time to time will true love leap unasked into thy mediation. Yet this shall die and be reborn again and again. It may be that thou hast no tinder near.
In the end shall come suddenly a great flame and a devouring, and burn thee utterly.

Now of these sparks, and of these splutterings of flame, and of these beginnings of the Infinite Fire, thou shalt thus be aware. For the sparks thy heart shall leap up, and thy ceremony or meditation or toil shall seem of a sudden to go of its own will; and for the little flames this shall be increased in volume and intensity; and for the beginnings of the Infinite Fire thy ceremony shall be caught up unto ravishing song, and thy meditation shall be ecstasy, and thy toil shall be a delight exceeding all pleasure thou hast ever known. "

 

YET

 

The most  spirited, strongest and swiftest horse may get you to your destination  surpassing all difficulties which may stop others , but it also might be the most difficult to control.  

[Apech]

@Michael Sternbach mentioned above about a threefold way of understanding the world (?) or reality perhaps and its link to the microcosm in man.  @Bindi spoke about thinking and feeling.  And our subject of course is 'emotions are the path'.

 

I like to look at this as physical body reflects subtle body.  In both with have a threefold-ism.  For instance the three Dantiens and physically the head, thorax and abdomen.  Thinking, feeling and .... energying (if there were such a word).  Emotion could be said, perhaps to be that which pulls us out of or into alignment of these three (?).  Our work - alchemically, is to distill, thoughts and feelings and urges ... somehow put them into relation to each other ... by overcoming (?) the tendency of conflicted or negative emotion to muddy them, pull them out of alignment etc - which creates our emotional states.  We use thinking to reflect on them and energy to push them into alignment and feeling to explore them.

 

Thoughts? (or feelings?) about what I am saying? 

[Taomeow]

10 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

 

 Emotions are the path -- nourishment is the destination.  Somebody please feed the white cat.   

[Bindi]

10 minutes ago, Apech said:

@Michael Sternbach mentioned above about a threefold way of understanding the world (?) or reality perhaps and its link to the microcosm in man.  @Bindi spoke about thinking and feeling.  And our subject of course is 'emotions are the path'.

 

I like to look at this as physical body reflects subtle body.  In both with have a threefold-ism.  For instance the three Dantiens and physically the head, thorax and abdomen.  Thinking, feeling and .... energying (if there were such a word).  Emotion could be said, perhaps to be that which pulls us out of or into alignment of these three (?).  Our work - alchemically, is to distill, thoughts and feelings and urges ... somehow put them into relation to each other ... by overcoming (?) the tendency of conflicted or negative emotion to muddy them, pull them out of alignment etc - which creates our emotional states.  We use thinking to reflect on them and energy to push them into alignment and feeling to explore them.

 

Thoughts? (or feelings?) about what I am saying? 

I more or less agree with you. To me conflicted or negative emotions muddy and seize the natural and spontaneous operation of the subtle energy body, I guess in childhood at some time. I do see emotions as having a specific channel, specifically the ida or rasana channel, but only because that has become apparent to me after doing ‘emotional’ work as my path since I was in my late teens. 

 

My perspective seems to be tantric, if you consider the quote below:
 

Quote

 

The tantras describe an impressive total of 72,000 fine channels, which together with the lotus centers and the three main channels form the “subtle” body of the yogi. In an “ordinary mortal” this network is blocked. The energies cannot flow freely, the chakras are “dead”, the “wheels” are motionless, the perception of spiritual phenomena limited. One also speaks of a “knotting”.

 

Now it is the first task of the yogi to untie these knots in himself or in his pupil, to free and to clean the blocked channels in all directions so as to fill the whole body with divine powers. 

 

http://www.trimondi.de/SDLE/Part-1-07.htm

 

 

 

[Bindi]

But nor is it that ^ simple. It’s not like once the channels are flowing freely everything is fine. The neidan process talks about birthing something, and nourishing it until it is fully grown. Does a child have this ‘something’ fully grown and then starved of nourishment when the channels close down, only to be rediscovered again later, or is this ‘something’ birthed only by an adult? 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

@Michael Sternbach mentioned above about a threefold way of understanding the world (?) or reality perhaps and its link to the microcosm in man.  @Bindi spoke about thinking and feeling.  And our subject of course is 'emotions are the path'.

 

I like to look at this as physical body reflects subtle body.  In both with have a threefold-ism.  For instance the three Dantiens and physically the head, thorax and abdomen

 

My first thought on this  are  ..... more threefold  patterns    

 

(for those that dont know, I  collect and collate 3 fold patterns  evidenced in nature )

 

 

4 hours ago, Apech said:

.  Thinking, feeling and .... energying (if there were such a word).  Emotion could be said, perhaps to be that which pulls us out of or into alignment of these three (?).  Our work - alchemically, is to distill, thoughts and feelings and urges ...

 

I am now playing with the idea of a   3 fold operation here being   feelings, thoughts  and 'urges' (or even 'homeostasis').  Because it seems that 3 fold energies consist of 'a thing' and its two polarities .  We could call the urges  'drives'  (of which there are 3 main ones, of course  ) .  A buzz  ( a return to homeostasis )  or a  'bust '  ( a disruption in homeostasis  - a 'need' ) can be altered , detected or analysed by its effects on the emotions and feelings and the thoughts .   The emotions seem to deal with the reactions of the body and the thoughts focus the actions of the body  ( eg. extreme  thirst may upset the emotions and make them focus on the problem, temporary UNfocusing on all the other 'problems' that previously engaged the emotions { which might be why certain activities that seem risky dangerous and exciting can 'calm the mind' }  the thoughts move towards the remedy ;  ' Must find water , how do I find water ? '

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Apech said:

somehow put them into relation to each other ... by overcoming (?) the tendency of conflicted or negative emotion to muddy them, pull them out of alignment etc - which creates our emotional states.  We use thinking to reflect on them and energy to push them into alignment and feeling to explore them.

 

Thoughts? (or feelings?) about what I am saying? 

 

Well, my thoughts on it are above , but when I read back through them , my feelings about it are somewhat unclear .

 

Damn feelings !   If it was all thoughts an no feelings, I'd be okay !  

 

[Michael Sternbach]

6 hours ago, Apech said:

@Michael Sternbach mentioned above about a threefold way of understanding the world (?) or reality perhaps and its link to the microcosm in man.  @Bindi spoke about thinking and feeling.  And our subject of course is 'emotions are the path'.

 

I like to look at this as physical body reflects subtle body.  In both with have a threefold-ism.  For instance the three Dantiens and physically the head, thorax and abdomen.  Thinking, feeling and .... energying (if there were such a word).

 

Yes, the physical body itself represents all those three aspects of existence.

 

Moreover, the Freudian model of the personality with its distinctive three levels comes to mind:

 

 

The 'id' is responsible for our 'animalistic' psychological drives, deeply rooted in the unconscious zone, but also tied in with physiological reactions. The 'superego' corresponds with our divine self - even though in Freud's atheist world view this was turned into nothing more than an image or sociocultural construct designed to provide the individual with a sense of security and internalized moral guidance. Whereas the function of the 'ego' is to mediate between the two, seeking to keep a precarious balance.

 

6 hours ago, Apech said:

Emotion could be said, perhaps to be that which pulls us out of or into alignment of these three (?).  Our work - alchemically, is to distill, thoughts and feelings and urges ... somehow put them into relation to each other ... by overcoming (?) the tendency of conflicted or negative emotion to muddy them, pull them out of alignment etc - which creates our emotional states.  We use thinking to reflect on them and energy to push them into alignment and feeling to explore them.

 

Thoughts? (or feelings?) about what I am saying? 

 

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

My first thought on this  are  ..... more threefold  patterns    

 

(for those that dont know, I  collect and collate 3 fold patterns  evidenced in nature )

 

 

 

I am now playing with the idea of a   3 fold operation here being   feelings, thoughts  and 'urges' (or even 'homeostasis').  Because it seems that 3 fold energies consist of 'a thing' and its two polarities .  We could call the urges  'drives'  (of which there are 3 main ones, of course  ) .  A buzz  ( a return to homeostasis )  or a  'bust '  ( a disruption in homeostasis  - a 'need' ) can be altered , detected or analysed by its effects on the emotions and feelings and the thoughts .   The emotions seem to deal with the reactions of the body and the thoughts focus the actions of the body  ( eg. extreme  thirst may upset the emotions and make them focus on the problem, temporary UNfocusing on all the other 'problems' that previously engaged the emotions { which might be why certain activities that seem risky dangerous and exciting can 'calm the mind' }  the thoughts move towards the remedy ;  ' Must find water , how do I find water ? '

 

 

 

 

Well, my thoughts on it are above , but when I read back through them , my feelings about it are somewhat unclear .

 

Damn feelings !   If it was all thoughts an no feelings, I'd be okay !  

 

I’ve come across a ‘unity of three’ lately, similar to this concept “Three Flowers Condensing onto the Head”. Three is the way to go  

[Michael Sternbach]

6 hours ago, Bindi said:

I’ve come across a ‘unity of three’ lately, similar to this concept “Three Flowers Condensing onto the Head”. Three is the way to go  

 

Moreover, as (quoting the linked text)

 

Quote

“three flowers” is actually “three splendors”, which refer to the splendor of the Essential Matter ( 精 Jing ), the Vital Breath ( 氣 Qi ) and the spirit of a human being

 

what we are dealing with here essentially seems to be the same trinity again that I introduced above, based on Platonism, with its three distinct levels of matter, soul (pneuma) and spirit!

 

 

Edited October 11, 2020 by Michael Sternbach
Added a missing word

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Moreover, as (quoting the linked text)

 

 

what we are dealing here essentially seems to be the same trinity again that I introduced above, based on Platonism, with its three distinct levels of matter, soul (pneuma) and spirit!

 

 

I like that as a trinity, but I also really resonate with the concepts of the 3 dantians and the three main subtle channels. Despite the significance my linked article refers to as the three I personally think of the three flowers up on top as the fulfilment of the potential of the three channels. 

[Michael Sternbach]

3 hours ago, Bindi said:

I like that as a trinity, but I also really resonate with the concepts of the 3 dantians and the three main subtle channels. Despite the significance my linked article refers to as the three I personally think of the three flowers up on top as the fulfilment of the potential of the three channels. 

 

All these are representative of the same trinity in my view. And there are yet more analogous expressions of it throughout various metaphysical systems. In Christian terms, the Holy Trinity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit corresponds with it.

[Bindi]

34 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

All these are representative of the same trinity in my view. And there are yet more analogous expressions of it throughout various metaphysical systems. In Christian terms, the Holy Trinity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit corresponds with it.

I see differences - the two side channels are opposites, polarised, male/female, I see them as yin and yang, while the central channel is ‘neutral’ - a different dynamic to the Jing, Qi and Shen of the dantians. I suspect the Christian Trinity is equally dissimilar though I haven’t thought much about it. 

[Nungali]

On 11/10/2020 at 4:19 PM, Bindi said:

I’ve come across a ‘unity of three’ lately, similar to this concept “Three Flowers Condensing onto the Head”. Three is the way to go  

 

I somehow missed this before  ,  thanks .    < checks link  -  quick scan > . . . Thanks !

 

< scurries off with his treasure  > 

[Nungali]

21 hours ago, Bindi said:

I like that as a trinity, but I also really resonate with the concepts of the 3 dantians and the three main subtle channels. Despite the significance my linked article refers to as the three I personally think of the three flowers up on top as the fulfilment of the potential of the three channels. 

 

 

I like the term  "splendours" 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splendor_Solis

 

here is an example No  13  ... see them 3 little critters in there  ?    

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

17 hours ago, Bindi said:

I see differences - the two side channels are opposites, polarised, male/female, I see them as yin and yang, while the central channel is ‘neutral’ - a different dynamic to the Jing, Qi and Shen of the dantians. I suspect the Christian Trinity is equally dissimilar though I haven’t thought much about it. 

 

 

 

 

[Bindi]

16 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

 

 

Yes indeed  

 

I have my own personal version of this, a friend of mine ‘saw’ a small sword come out of each one of my eyes maybe 30 years ago when I was questioning her intently about something, and she described them to me in detail. I painted this picture at the time, the most relevant part was the hilt of the swords, the swords themselves were fully golden but I didn’t bother painting the full thing. I gather, having shown it to a couple of people, that it looks a bit phallic, but hopefully you can get over that 

 

[Nungali]

Make a pair of them !          

 

 

 

Nah ... not phallic  ... they would be wands if that was the case .   These guys are swords ! 

 

For some reason your pic made me think  my small ritual 'temple sword' -   its a left over from my Tibetan Tantric  kit  ( i used to sell Tibetan stuff at the markets that an importer used to send me ) 

 

 

 

 But its painted and decorated , sorta Golden Dawn style , but a la Nungali .

 

 

.

 

Edited October 12, 2020 by Nungali

[Nungali]

The sword has become a symbol of the mind , like the cup has become the symbol of the emotions

 

So what does this mean ?

 

 

   

[Bindi]

My friend said they were called the ‘swords of truth’, so yes I would agree swords signify mental, our ability to cut through to the truth, and I gather from another ‘seer’s’ information that emotions are processed in a semi-circular bowl, which is very close to your goblet image. I’ve never come across any information that puts the two together like in your pictures though. 
 

 

Edited October 12, 2020 by Bindi

[manitou]

9 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

    

 

 

This is interesting, with the moon in the background.  A tarot reading might show that the subjection of the cup to the sword is an illusion, a deception.  Along with the smoke.  The true north would be found with the cup, not the sword.

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, Bindi said:

My friend said they were called the ‘swords of truth’, so yes I would agree swords signify mental, our ability to cut through to the truth, and I gather from another ‘seer’s’ information that emotions are processed in a semi-circular bowl, which is very close to your goblet image. I’ve never come across any information that puts the two together like in your pictures though. 
 

 

 

I think its in the Wicca tradition .   In other traditions its a  wand or lance that goes into or touches the 'Grail' .

 

 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

This is interesting, with the moon in the background.  A tarot reading might show that the subjection of the cup to the sword is an illusion, a deception.  Along with the smoke.  The true north would be found with the cup, not the sword.

 

The two candles and the Moon suggest the Wicca  focus on lunar energy .

 

What do you mean about  'true north '  ?

[Apech]

Ok.  It's getting very witchy in here - I suppose its just under three weeks till Halloween witch might explain it.

 

i want to raise something important to do with emotions and the path - and that is why do we cling to negative emotional states?  Why don't we just throw them out?  or to put it another way why do we develop harmful habits or routines in thinking/feeling/acting which are destructive to ourselves and others.  And I am sure it is not just not-knowing or not being aware of them.  There's something deeper which I feel as a comfort in ignorance.  It's hard to be strong and aware but for an easy life - just be stupid.  Just look around (call me a misanthrope if you will) don't people seem to glory in their not-knowingness don't they seem to derive strength from it.  While those of us who cultivate - don't we seem often to have a hard time of it????

 

So why does this preference exist in all of us - and what is the solution?

 

(You may write on both sides of the paper - if you finish the test before others exit the exam hall quietly and leave the pencil provided on the desk.)

Edited October 12, 2020 by Apech

[Jadespear]

On 9/11/2020 at 5:42 AM, Apech said:

This expression 'emotions are the path' comes from Mahamudra Buddhism (possibly Dzogchen also) but I don't want to come at it particularly from a Buddhist perspective.  But that's where it comes from - so I thought I would establish that.

 

What does it mean?

 

What is emotion?  The word emotion comes from 'ex' meaning 'out' and 'motion' which itself comes from a PIE root *meue which itself means to 'push away'.  So overall it has the sense of pushing away.  So even though you can think of enjoyable emotions like joy for instance, there is still an underlying sense of pushing away or being pushed away.  So emotions have their base in duality and separation - whether pleasurable or painful.

 

Sometimes emotions are described as 'conflicting' or 'conflicted' which implies a push/pull in the motion.  Motion itself is simply the expression of energy.  So there is energy being discharged within ourselves which leads to separation of one feeling from another, or you could say separation between our sense of ourselves and our moods or actions.  The conflict being that we think of being a certain kind of person and then act differently because of conflicting emotions.  This can cause more problems with identity later when we try to justify to ourselves how we acted and so on.  So you can see a grand mess evolves.

 

When faced with this there are probably three stages of response.  Firstly trying to stop or control the emotion.  Then wanting to transform them into something better.  Then lastly waking up to precisely what is going on and why.  The first two are ok and natural but not really much use.  It's the last one where emotions become the path.

 

This does not mean that your individual feelings are particularly important.  They are just patterns of movement of energy.  So for instance, you might feel particularly angry about something and want to express it.  But that is missing the point.  If you are just indulging in the strength of yur feelings you aren't learning anything - even if there might be some temporary feeling of liberation.

 

It is in the emotional field where this 'pushing away' is occurring which is blocking your ability to see your true nature, duality is being generated through it.  One reason for cultivation is to create a unified and coherent being - one pointed focus - which can form the basis.  On different levels and different ways conflicting emotional states are being generated - for instance by holding together essentially contradictory ideas about ourselves and the nature of reality.

 

Unfortunately for most of us we have a huge baggage of emotional content and experiences to work through.  It can seem overfacing.  But nevertheless this is the work.

 

Just some thoughts (for you all to pick holes in  ).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Emotions are like waves

They come, they go

 

The water that creates the waves is like the essence of life itself - pure energy

 

Could something be said to exist if it truly felt nothing?

Even the most basic element in science undergoes "feelings" of a kind...their inherent nature that directs their behavior in the natural world under any given number of environmental forces...from basic elements through the mineral, plant, and animal kingdoms, and further into the immaterial spatial world...

 

Whatever emotions you send out into the world, or embrace - will come back to you just like a wave that returns over and over again against the shore.  Of course some waves destroy, others nurture.  There are only two basic differences in qualities of emotions, division or constructiveness.  And even though divisive emotions can be seen over time to band together people who share similar views against an "other"... they will ultimately only accelerate their own demise.