Emotions are the path

[Giles]

Spoiler

 

1 hour ago, Apech said:

why do we cling to negative emotional states?  Why don't we just throw them out?  or to put it another way why do we develop harmful habits or routines in thinking/feeling/acting which are destructive to ourselves and others. 

 

Because our parts are at war with each other inside ourselves (and with others outside ourselves) and they don't know how to make peace with each other and unburden themselves*.

 

1 hour ago, Apech said:

(You may write on both sides of the paper - if you finish the test before others exit the exam hall quietly and leave the pencil provided on the desk.)

 

Thank you.

Although I've side-stepped the two sides of A4 I've exited this exam hall quietly and left the pencil hoping that two out of three plus the audiovisual citation is sufficient to be granted an upper second?

 

*

 

 

 

[Bindi]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

Ok.  It's getting very witchy in here - I suppose its just under three weeks till Halloween witch might explain it.

 

i want to raise something important to do with emotions and the path - and that is why do we cling to negative emotional states?  Why don't we just throw them out?  or to put it another way why do we develop harmful habits or routines in thinking/feeling/acting which are destructive to ourselves and others.  And I am sure it is not just not-knowing or not being aware of them.  There's something deeper which I feel as a comfort in ignorance.  It's hard to be strong and aware but for an easy life - just be stupid.  Just look around (call me a misanthrope if you will) don't people seem to glory in their not-knowingness don't they seem to derive strength from it.  While those of us who cultivate - don't we seem often to have a hard time of it????

 

So why does this preference exist in all of us - and what is the solution?

 

(You may write on both sides of the paper - if you finish the test before others exit the exam hall quietly and leave the pencil provided on the desk.)

I don’t think we do cling to negative emotional states, this sort of state that you are referring to - things like depression or harmful habits - is the consequence of not being able to feel the original ‘bad’ or ‘hard to feel’ feeling. Feelings like shame, sadness, anxiety, things we’d prefer not to feel, are pushed away and split off, which works in the short term but in the longer term creates a lack of emotional energy flow.
 

So then we’re left trying to deal with this state of non-flow, which we try to mitigate by harmful habits to reduce the painful awareness of an overwhelming amount of backlog, or we find we are depressed and stuck in the non-flow with no hope of escape. 

 

The solution for me was to regain a split off feeling, one feeling at a time, and allow myself to feel it, which was invariably unpleasant, but reducing the load of ‘bad’ feelings did lead over time to emotional energy being able to flow freely again. 
 

So now, for instance, if I’m feeling anxious, there tends to be a reason, for example a job interview, and I consciously allow myself to feel my very reasonable anxiety, and after the event there is no extra split off baggage, I remain up to date and able to experience the next emotion that appears. 
 

Yes emotions are like waves, never ending, but they add a lot of flavour to our lives, even the hard to feel ones, and in general emotions contribute an entire half of our conscious makeup. In my previously posted sword picture, the black snake represents the emotional channel, it is inconceivable to me that this channel could be left unflowing, because it feeds the other channel, the white snake which represents ‘mental’, in a never ending loop. At least to my perspective, it is these looping and integrated channels that when flowing freely allow the central channel to be ‘nourished’ and filled. 
 

 

 

Edited October 13, 2020 by Bindi

[silent thunder]

.

Edited October 15, 2020 by silent thunder

[manitou]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

Ok.  It's getting very witchy in here - I suppose its just under three weeks till Halloween witch might explain it.

 

i want to raise something important to do with emotions and the path - and that is why do we cling to negative emotional states?  Why don't we just throw them out?  or to put it another way why do we develop harmful habits or routines in thinking/feeling/acting which are destructive to ourselves and others.  And I am sure it is not just not-knowing or not being aware of them.  There's something deeper which I feel as a comfort in ignorance.  It's hard to be strong and aware but for an easy life - just be stupid.  Just look around (call me a misanthrope if you will) don't people seem to glory in their not-knowingness don't they seem to derive strength from it.  While those of us who cultivate - don't we seem often to have a hard time of it????

 

So why does this preference exist in all of us - and what is the solution?

 

(You may write on both sides of the paper - if you finish the test before others exit the exam hall quietly and leave the pencil provided on the desk.)

 

 

I know of one solution.  Use the negative feeling as a vehicle for finding out why there's a negative feeling.  This can come in an instant flash as a childhood memory - something that created the initial reaction - a very formidable reaction that is your faux comfort zone.   If it's your faux comfort zone, then the dynamic will manifest repeatedly in relationships, in business dynamics.  Something that continually makes you feel 'beaten', for example.  Easy enough to find those memories.  But until the root of the problem is found and understood, the dynamic will be repeated continually until it's recognized.  Once in awareness, the separation begins and it doesn't take long at all to feel a change within.  Usually within a few weeks.

 

Another way would be to make a list of every negative personality trait that you can think of, then when you have a glass of wine or a bowl at the end of the day, you can sit back and think of one trait at a time - maybe start with resentments you've been carrying, or jealousy, or whatever it is that gets in the way.  Be fiercely honest, and don't be afraid to look under your emotional rugs.  If you're honest with yourself, the negative mindsets become a choice rather than a reaction.  

 

Another way would be to start with judgements and biases.  Don't offer excuses for yourself, just look underneath it and see where it started.  I was brought up by a racist cop in L.A. and my imprints are deep in a dark way.  I know it's there, and I'm guessing that everybody in the world has the imprints of someone else.  I know it's there.  I act to the opposite.  I do this in various ways.

 

Judge not lest you be judged.  If you are judging others at all - even a stranger passing you on the street - you will feel equally as judged as the amount you are giving out to others.  If someone is feeling self conscious or judged, look immediately to the recent judgments you have made.  We recognize these things in others because we are these things.

 

There really are active things to do.  It's just that people don't usually want to do it until their backs are up against the wall.  Feelings are messy.

 

 

 

 

[silent thunder]

2 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

I know of one solution.  Use the negative feeling as a vehicle for finding out why there's a negative feeling.  This can come in an instant flash as a childhood memory - something that created the initial reaction - a very formidable reaction that is your faux comfort zone.   If it's your faux comfort zone, then the dynamic will manifest repeatedly in relationships, in business dynamics.  Something that continually makes you feel 'beaten', for example.  Easy enough to find those memories.  But until the root of the problem is found and understood, the dynamic will be repeated continually until it's recognized.  Once in awareness, the separation begins and it doesn't take long at all to feel a change within.  Usually within a few weeks.

 

Another way would be to make a list of every negative personality trait that you can think of, then when you have a glass of wine or a bowl at the end of the day, you can sit back and think of one trait at a time - maybe start with resentments you've been carrying, or jealousy, or whatever it is that gets in the way.  Be fiercely honest, and don't be afraid to look under your emotional rugs.  If you're honest with yourself, the negative mindsets become a choice rather than a reaction.  

 

Another way would be to start with judgements and biases.  Don't offer excuses for yourself, just look underneath it and see where it started.  I was brought up by a racist cop in L.A. and my imprints are deep in a dark way.  I know it's there, and I'm guessing that everybody in the world has the imprints of someone else.  I know it's there.  I act to the opposite.  I do this in various ways.

 

Judge not lest you be judged.  If you are judging others at all - even a stranger passing you on the street - you will feel equally as judged as the amount you are giving out to others.  If someone is feeling self conscious or judged, look immediately to the recent judgments you have made.  We recognize these things in others because we are these things.

 

There really are active things to do.  It's just that people don't usually want to do it until their backs are up against the wall.  Feelings are messy.

Wow!

 

*deep bow of respect*

 

Timing... synchronicity...  gratitude.

[Apech]

@Bindi and @manitou,

 

Great posts both.  Wonderful.  I hope to respond in some way when I have digested them.

 

Thanks.

[Nungali]

22 hours ago, Apech said:

Ok.  It's getting very witchy in here - I suppose its just under three weeks till Halloween witch might explain it.

 

Nah ... I can be witchy in a moments notice . 

 

22 hours ago, Apech said:

 

i want to raise something important to do with emotions and the path - and that is why do we cling to negative emotional states?  Why don't we just throw them out? 

 

Well, I wish I knew !   I threw mine out some time ago .  Maybe , when the Good Lord handed out serotonin  I wasnt behind the door .  There are some things I just dont get !  Why dont others have the daily bliss I feel about just being alive ? Why are others so mixed with their emotions ? How come HEAPS of other people, that live where I do  and in a simialr lifestyle  ( Man ! one has to be SOOOOO lucky to have that ! ) ;  a clean environment ,  low population access to all modern goodies, forests , beaches, all sorts of activities , including spiritual ones , etc etc , yet the local town chemist has the highest distribution er population of anti depressant meds in the state !

 

Apparently, I am 'on the scale'  (of autism ) , due to my emotional state  ( or lack of it ) .  One life long female friend, who always battled with me about that ....  me being 'removed'  from  'my' emotions   ( wtf that means ?  ... more like I was removed from HER emotions  )  now , after her menopause ,  finally agrees with me and wonders what the hell she was  doing back then .   Many a time people have been frustrated with me for not becoming entangled in THEIR emotions .  I have had two other cases like  that ;  an ex, that used to live here with me many years ago, stopped me in the street and gave me all this positive feedback and recently, my last GF sent me a letter, I couldnt believe what was in it ,  never been praised like that before . It seems when in the flurry of emotions , reason is clouded . When one can distance themselves from that and let time pass , things get clearer ,

 

The reason they dont just throw them out  is ... I have come to realise , they can't .    Why ?  Sorry, the exam time is too short for such a complex psychological explanation .

 

 

22 hours ago, Apech said:

 

or to put it another way why do we develop harmful habits or routines in thinking/feeling/acting which are destructive to ourselves and others.  And I am sure it is not just not-knowing or not being aware of them.  There's something deeper which I feel as a comfort in ignorance.

 

Hiccups in development . 

 

< insert Exopsychology rave here >

 

I was talking to the tiler that came here to do my bathhouse , he took one look and bailed  out !  Said he probably would let me down as he has 'problems '   . Oh great ! Better to find out now .  But he raved about his problems and how he thought he was  unusual, then found out how many people have developmental problems, had bad upbringing / parents, trauma in childhood etc . And said how now he understood that was 'normal' ,  most people have that .  My experience was the opposite , I thought that THAT was normal ... oh no.

 

We know the world and our society are messed up !  So why would it be creating  happy balanced people  (en mass )  ?

 

 

22 hours ago, Apech said:

  It's hard to be strong and aware but for an easy life - just be stupid.  Just look around (call me a misanthrope if you will) don't people seem to glory in their not-knowingness don't they seem to derive strength from it.  While those of us who cultivate - don't we seem often to have a hard time of it????

 

I have commented a few times in posts in threads where we have pulled apart the human psyche and looked at some dynamics ; there seem two schools of thought  on this ; one one side we have the psychonaughts ( of sorts ) like  Swedenbourg, Steiner , Crowley etc etc  who urge us to open Pandora's box  ( with the right precautions ) because we should know about the forces that we are dealing with . The other school says they are too dangerous , leave it closed and leave them sealed up in the unconscious . I mean, we get on okay like that .

 

But do we ?    Oh, we are fine at building grand edifices  ... but the interiors !

 

 

22 hours ago, Apech said:

 

So why does this preference exist in all of us

 

 

because ;

 

 

22 hours ago, Apech said:

 

- and what is the solution?

 

 

 

 

 

a kick up the bum  ....  a turning over of the deck chair  ..... disaster ....  difficulty .... challenge  ....

 

22 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

 

(You may write on both sides of the paper - if you finish the test before others exit the exam hall quietly and leave the pencil provided on the desk.)

 

Phew ! just as well .    I explained all the above in more detail and outlined all the solutions you need on the back of this page .

[Michael Sternbach]

On 12/10/2020 at 8:27 AM, Nungali said:

 

 

I like the term  "splendours" 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splendor_Solis

 

here is an example No  13  ... see them 3 little critters in there  ?    

 

 

 

 

 

Your mention of the Splendor Solis is interesting. The alchemical trinity presented in this and many other books is comprised by the polarity of the Sun and the Moon plus Mercury as a third and mediating element.

 

Here is one version of plate 1:

 

 

The depictions of the Sun and the Moon are obvious enough in this illustration, Mercury is symbolized by the figures standing on top of the frame (winged calves!).

 

Now, running from memory, I think this ties in rather nicely with your 'astro tree' model of the unconscious and the conscious mind and the mediating agent between them?

 

And of course, it goes without saying that the Serpent Staff of Hermes (aka Mercury) is all about the union and balance of the solar with the lunar 'power'.

 

 

Which in turn is linked to the chakra system:

 

 

Anybody who wants to know more about the three spinal channels as they relate to the polar forces of the Sun and the Moon - and their balance - should refer to Avalon's classic The Serpent Power.

 

I do think it's quite amazing how all these concepts line up with and supplement each other, given a certain perspective. 

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by Michael Sternbach

[johndoe2012]

On 12.10.2020 at 11:47 PM, Apech said:

Ok.  It's getting very witchy in here - I suppose its just under three weeks till Halloween witch might explain it.

 

i want to raise something important to do with emotions and the path - and that is why do we cling to negative emotional states?  Why don't we just throw them out?  or to put it another way why do we develop harmful habits or routines in thinking/feeling/acting which are destructive to ourselves and others.  And I am sure it is not just not-knowing or not being aware of them.  There's something deeper which I feel as a comfort in ignorance.  It's hard to be strong and aware but for an easy life - just be stupid.  Just look around (call me a misanthrope if you will) don't people seem to glory in their not-knowingness don't they seem to derive strength from it.  While those of us who cultivate - don't we seem often to have a hard time of it????

 

So why does this preference exist in all of us - and what is the solution?

 

(You may write on both sides of the paper - if you finish the test before others exit the exam hall quietly and leave the pencil provided on the desk.)

 

You write as if it is a conscious choice of hiding stuff in our psyche.

 

I don't think it is a conscious choice at all. It requires free will to make a choice.

 

A child that grows up with loving parents usually end up happier than a child that grows up under a tough-love environment. Although genetics play a part of course.

 

Once the tough-love child becomes an adult why blame the adult for behavior that is caused by past conditions?

 

Blame is a emotion that causes suffering. It can be eliminated by contemplating free will.

 

The psyche is built on layers upon layers. Pulling the rug completely out is not possible and would be unhealthy.

Imagine if your psyche would change completely everytime you walked into a new room.

 

Until humans evolve an automatic defragging of old emotions we need to clear everything out ourselves manually.

 

The bottom line is why do the people do what they are doing? Everything is caused by the past. No doer, no blame, no pride, no guilt, no shame, no suffering.

 

 

[silent thunder]

on second thought...

Edited October 15, 2020 by silent thunder
decided to share less

[manitou]

3 hours ago, johndoe2012 said:

The bottom line is why do the people do what they are doing? Everything is caused by the past. No doer, no blame, no pride, no guilt, no shame, no suffering.

 

 

I think it's a process, or at least in my case it was.  Once I determined where the dynamic started (usually as a result of my dad's anger and violence), there was indeed a lengthy period of blame.    Once I saw how it started, the blame was huge.  As I got further along in my development, I made the realization that we're all victims of victims.  Dad did to me exactly what was done to him.  And to his father.  And to his....

 

So then the blame turned into compassion.  I wish dad were still around so I could see him through my compassionate eyes and see him for the injured little boy he remained through life.

[manitou]

2 hours ago, silent thunder said:

Now it's revealed itself to be more like a ball floating on the Ocean.  Not influencing, but responding to conditions beyond its ken of impact. 

 

 

 

Surrendering to life seems to make it happen.  I often think I feel like a stick floating in the ocean.  I wonder why you feel like a ball and I feel like a stick.  Strange. 

 

The attachment thing comes into play here too.  The fewer emotional attachments we have, the less we're at the mercy of the emotions.  Some would call me hard hearted.  I don't cry over a lot of things.  My emotions are no longer on my sleeve.  In fact, just about the only 'emotion' I feel these days is appreciation and gratitude. And a deep soul appreciation for things of beauty.  The thing that made the difference to me is the ever-dawning awareness that we are all one entity - and that awareness, with practice, comes more and more often during the day.  I like to remember that the Dao considers us as ceremonial straw dogs.  The rain falls equally upon all.  

 

I think the horribly deep loss I felt when Joe died - which lasted for 2 years - set everything else into a different perspective.  Almost as though his death used up any emotions I had left.  I'm not sure there are any tears left for anything.

 

It's all good.

 

 

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by manitou

[Nungali]

17 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Your mention of the Splendor Solis is interesting. The alchemical trinity presented in this and many other books is comprised by the polarity of the Sun and the Moon plus Mercury as a third and mediating element.

 

Here is one version of plate 1:

 

 

The depictions of the Sun and the Moon are obvious enough in this illustration, Mercury is symbolized by the figures standing on top of the frame (winged calves!).

 

Now, running from memory, I think this ties in rather nicely with your 'astro tree' model of the unconscious and the conscious mind and the mediating agent between them?

 

Yup !    We can look at it several ways .

 

Conscious / unconscious  ( 'the Underworld ' )   -  Mercury can travel between both realms - the 'Psychopomp'  ( in Greek mythology, a guide of souls to the place of the dead. ;  the spiritual guide of a living person's soul ).

 

Also in my model the way the inner (personal ) planets align with the  unconscious and its 'drives'   ( where here, Mercury is in its aspect  within the unconscious )   The Moon is the symbol of the unconscious and around it in an upright  triangle  with Mercury at apex and Venus / Mars as the base line .

 

In what you mentioned above  ( Sun Moon Mercury )  we can see mercury as air   Sun as Fire and Moon as water *   we have   Fire and water as the base line with 'Air' above as the 'regulator '.  This is not the air of the 4 fold elemental plan of nature and manifestation but the 'spiritual air '  / 'pneuma' ( pre-Socratis meaning ;  " Pneuma, "air in motion, breath, wind", is equivalent in the material monism of Anaximenes to aer (ἀήρ, "air") as the element from which all else originated . " ) of the triangular 3 fold pattern  behind  manifestation and nature , ie.  'the ideal' .. . . that manifests in 'the real '

 

And the 4th way  .....   I forgot about while writing about the 3 above .    

 

 

 

 

 

17 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

And of course, it goes without saying that the Serpent Staff of Hermes (aka Mercury) is all about the union and balance of the solar with the lunar 'power'.

 

 

Which in turn is linked to the chakra system:

 

 

Anybody who wants to know more about the three spinal channels as they relate to the polar forces of the Sun and the Moon - and their balance - should refer to Avalon's classic The Serpent Power.

 

I do think it's quite amazing how all these concepts line up with and supplement each other, given a certain perspective. 

 

 

Yup ² .

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, johndoe2012 said:

 

You write as if it is a conscious choice of hiding stuff in our psyche.

 

I don't think it is a conscious choice at all. It requires free will to make a choice.

 

 

Indeed, this is the point I was trying to make in the 'Jungian' Shadow thread ; 'what is hidden' as opposed to 'what we hide' .

 

of course this opens another Pandora's box of ....    'who is running this show anyway ? '

 

 

5 hours ago, johndoe2012 said:

 

A child that grows up with loving parents usually end up happier than a child that grows up under a tough-love environment. Although genetics play a part of course.

 

Once the tough-love child becomes an adult why blame the adult for behavior that is caused by past conditions?

 

Blame is a emotion that causes suffering. It can be eliminated by contemplating free will.

 

The psyche is built on layers upon layers. Pulling the rug completely out is not possible and would be unhealthy.

Imagine if your psyche would change completely everytime you walked into a new room.

 

Until humans evolve an automatic defragging of old emotions we need to clear everything out ourselves manually.

 

The bottom line is why do the people do what they are doing? Everything is caused by the past. No doer, no blame, no pride, no guilt, no shame, no suffering.

 

 

 

This might be a good place to insert this ?    Its from another poster on a sociology / psychology forum from a discussion on  cults and  and that 'process' ;

 

" Faith and belief often outweighs reason, and morality/ethics don't even stand a chance. That was as true more than five thousand years ago as it is today. People are crazy; we are all people, hence ... we are ALL crazy, so who will trust the diagnosis of a crazy person? The "why" of human affairs, both as individuals and as groups, has no simple answers. "Ethos, Pathos, Logos", Ethics, Emotions, Rational, are classic ways of persuasion. Guess the order of effectiveness of those. We like to think that evidence and reason are paramount. Wrong, the most effective arguments are virtually always emotional. Appealing to an audience's prejudices, biases and self-interest will usually leave the ethics, morality, etc. in the dust. Humans tend to be short-sighted creatures; we forget quickly the past and project our hopes into the future .. a fertile field for cult leaders...... Study of collective human behavior is essential, difficult to understand. For most of us Thinking is too hard, Ethical grounds too abstract, and so we react to our environment and world based upon our emotional attachment to "Beliefs" formed in childhood, and vetted by our peers. Diogenes is said to search endlessly for an "Honest Man", but the darkness necessitating his lantern is ignorance, prejudice, and all the "sins" and taboos that we gold-fish swim in from the first cry until the death rattle."         -  'Asherman'

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

I think it's a process, or at least in my case it was.  Once I determined where the dynamic started (usually as a result of my dad's anger and violence), there was indeed a lengthy period of blame.    Once I saw how it started, the blame was huge.  As I got further along in my development, I made the realization that we're all victims of victims.  Dad did to me exactly what was done to him.  And to his father.  And to his....

 

So then the blame turned into compassion.  I wish dad were still around so I could see him through my compassionate eyes and see him for the injured little boy he remained through life.

 

Its up to us to identify, transform and give out the new .  'The wheel of negative karma stops here !

 

I have known a few people that have done this ;  ' I had a terrible upbringing / parents / whatever , so I am going to make sure my kids have the opposite of that ."

 

Of course, the opposite dynamic can happen - the one of the good parent . I am reminded at the eulogy that sprang forth from my mouth ( I had nothing prepared at all ) at my mothers funeral . in brief;  " My mother was a simple person who really didnt do anything but care for and dedicate herself to her children , husband and extended family .. Regardless of the complaints of youth, I now realise  the importance of that and in many cases , how rare it is . So many problems other people have that I have encountered stems from   bad childhood experience and upbringing . Her legacy lives on; I see how both my brother and sister look after and care for their kids and although I have none of my own, I have spent some time helping others bring up their children. Also I have spent some time helping people in different ways in my work in the hospital, in refugee re location , with Amnesty International. So, although our mother has passed on, her important legacy continues , and not just with one person, I see it spreading through the generations of her family   ,   fanning  out into multiple paths ... " 

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

Surrendering to life seems to make it happen.  I often think I feel like a stick floating in the ocean.  I wonder why you feel like a ball and I feel like a stick.  Strange. 

 

The attachment thing comes into play here too.  The fewer emotional attachments we have, the less we're at the mercy of the emotions.  Some would call me hard hearted.  I don't cry over a lot of things.  My emotions are no longer on my sleeve.  In fact, just about the only 'emotion' I feel these days is appreciation and gratitude. And a deep soul appreciation for things of beauty.  The thing that made the difference to me is the ever-dawning awareness that we are all one entity - and that awareness, with practice, comes more and more often during the day.  I like to remember that the Dao considers us as ceremonial straw dogs.  The rain falls equally upon all.  

 

Maybe I was behind the door when God handed out 'emotional attachments' ?  Hence my 'coldness' .   But I also  have immense upwellings of  " appreciation and gratitude. And a deep soul appreciation for things of beauty. "  Many a time a friend has pointed out to me  " A lot of the things most think are important , you dont seem to care about and a lot of things we dont care about seem important to you . "   - and now, I have a new view about  'straw dogs' to meditate on .

 

2 hours ago, manitou said:

 

I think the horribly deep loss I felt when Joe died - which lasted for 2 years - set everything else into a different perspective.  Almost as though his death used up any emotions I had left.  I'm not sure there are any tears left for anything.

 

And that triggered my grief about the beautiful Sumer .   A young beautiful spirit , for whom I helped in the fight to secure her freedom, only to be taken from us in youth.  I remember spending some time with her at the end  ( a great privilege since she banned any contact except with 3 people ) and her confiding in me  ; " I am only 27 and I am going to die .... who will look after my little baby ? "

 

..... Oh look !   I still  have some tears left !

 

F or me ( and probably  some others )  grief  never goes away, we just learn to live with it . yet for some others , who exhibit all types of emotional demands, outbursts and expectations ..... I have even seen them seem forget that a passed dear friend ever existed  . And they seem confused that 'someone like me '  still misses her , thinks about her , and has framed photograph of her  placed on the window shelf , facing out to the the view, forest and sky .

 

 

2 hours ago, manitou said:

 

It's all good.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes. How  'less good' our lives would have been without the Joe's and Sumer's of this world   

[Michael Sternbach]

39 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Yup !    We can look at it several ways .

 

Conscious / unconscious  ( 'the Underworld ' )   -  Mercury can travel between both realms - the 'Psychopomp'  ( in Greek mythology, a guide of souls to the place of the dead. ;  the spiritual guide of a living person's soul ).

 

Also in my model the way the inner (personal ) planets align with the  unconscious and its 'drives'   ( where here, Mercury is in its aspect  within the unconscious )   The Moon is the symbol of the unconscious and around it in an upright  triangle  with Mercury at apex and Venus / Mars as the base line .

 

In what you mentioned above  ( Sun Moon Mercury )  we can see mercury as air   Sun as Fire and Moon as water *   we have   Fire and water as the base line with 'Air' above as the 'regulator '.  This is not the air of the 4 fold elemental plan of nature and manifestation but the 'spiritual air '  / 'pneuma' ( pre-Socratis meaning ;  " Pneuma, "air in motion, breath, wind", is equivalent in the material monism of Anaximenes to aer (ἀήρ, "air") as the element from which all else originated . " ) of the triangular 3 fold pattern  behind  manifestation and nature , ie.  'the ideal' .. . . that manifests in 'the real '

 

Mercury is generally seen not as representing any of the four elements but as being 'quintessential' or belonging to ether, the 'fifth element'. Whereas from another perspective he has affinity with the air element, so that seems to be a pretty good match.

 

Also, fire, water and air are the 'three kabbalistic mothers'.

 

39 minutes ago, Nungali said:

And the 4th way  .....   I forgot about while writing about the 3 above .    

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yup ² .

 

Is there another, but inverted triangle in your model - whose top line horizontally connects Jupiter and Saturn, with the Sun in its centre and (perhaps) sharing Mercury with the other triangle on the bottom?

 

Sun, Jupiter and Saturn are considered the diurnal bodies (within the visible solar system) in traditional astrology.

 

[Apech]

@johndoe2012 and everyone,

 

What I was trying to get in the question is perhaps best illustrated by outer or ordinary life.  People have their comfort zones as @manitou pointed out.  many people run through a routine life - because of safety and sometimes even if this routine is painful in some ways at least it is familiar.  So there's a kind of comfort even in negative states.  This applies to internal emotional life as well - most people have a set range or feelings, responses and emotions which they habitually inhabit.  These may be part painful, part happy but in the end they are inertic.  Their mind is just running through certain strands and unless life kicks them in the butt somehow they are unlikely to leave this 'nest'.  So @Bindi this is what I mean about clinging to negative states.  I think we do it.  It is very hard to shake.  Very hard to get out of.

 

@manitou you mentioned judging people and this reflecting back onto you.  I admit to this.  I do it - but also sometimes its just the truth about people.  In my experience there is a big difference between those who cultivate and those who don't.  And those who don't like to bind you with their second attention, their dream minds into whatever world they create.  I try to treat all with respect and kindness - because that is the way.  But that doesn't mean I have to be blind to what people do and how they are.

 

@Nungali the symbolism is very interesting.  I think the role of Mercury/Hermes/Thoth is key. We mediate between the sun and moon and this is a key alchemical process.

 

Thanks everyone.

[Nungali]

18 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Mercury is generally seen not as representing any of the four elements but as being 'quintessential' or belonging to ether, the 'fifth element'. Whereas from another perspective he has affinity with the air element, so that seems to be a pretty good match.

 

Yes. This point has led to some confusion with modern occultists .  

 

18 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Also, fire, water and air are the 'three kabbalistic mothers'.

 

The Mothers of 'Invention'    

 

 

18 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

 

Is there another, but inverted triangle in your model - whose top line horizontally connects Jupiter and Saturn, with the Sun in its centre and (perhaps) sharing Mercury with the other triangle on the bottom?

 

yes.  the model contains 3 triangles .... of course       Jupiter and Saturn (which in my model is below the 'abyss' ) are the valve or gateway to the 3 outer planets and the transpersonal forces . They represent the forces of 'mercy and severity ' .

 

18 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Sun, Jupiter and Saturn are considered the diurnal bodies (within the visible solar system) in traditional astrology.

 

 

Could you explain that more for me  ? 

[Nungali]

25 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

@Nungali the symbolism is very interesting.  I think the role of Mercury/Hermes/Thoth is key. We mediate between the sun and moon and this is a key alchemical process.

 

 

 

Its key in LOTS of stuff and I have seen it as a working solution. Especially in  personal relationships .  People tend to fall into the male female / Mars Venus archetypes  ....

 

there is NO WAY in heaven and hell that anyone is going to resolve a relationship  problem when coming form or standing in either one of those perspectives .  And the insistence on doing this and thinking one is right over the other just perpetuates this 'ancient battle ' .  The only solution is the mediation of Mercury .  Mars and Venus are emotional reactions  while Mercury is intelligent response .

 

I should add that  being 'in Mercury' will not 'save' you from trouble though      To be in the midst of a Mars Venus battle and shift to Mercury may cause a  huge reaction in the other party ; you might seem distant and removed , uninvolved , not emotional , I have even be asked  " Why aren't you getting angry ? "         So it may  not  heal the relationship  ( although you have a much better chance of healing it  via Mercury )  but at least you will not be caught up in the negative dynamics of it .

[Nungali]

Here is a little story ;

 

We dont live on 'The Earth'  we live on Venus.

 

Venus was the partner of Vulcan, the God of blacksmithing , fire , smoke, (and pollution and toxic chemicals)  and 'technology' - its products and byproducts .   She ran off and had it off with Mars .... and got 'caught up between them' .

 

Now, Venus the planet is hot, humid , toxic , acidic 'fire and smoke ' . It should have been called Vulcan (but we previously only saw its exterior from a distance ) .  Mars, as we know is the planet and God of war .    We can see how 'The Earth' is the planet of life nature oceans , etc  all symbols of Venus, so Earth should have been called Venus .

 

In this system we now have  'Venus' ( the Earth ) between the 'orbits' of  Vulcan ( formally Venus )  and Mars  ... we  ( Venus / Earth  continually  become involved with war on the one hand  and technology and its effects on the other .... like Venus, the Goddess does , seeking love .

 

While all the time , love was right here , in the self  .... in the heart .... and on this planet   ( before all the war and technology stuffed it up)

 

Oh dear ..... the Venus that we lost  ...

 

 

 

[manitou]

 

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

@manitou you mentioned judging people and this reflecting back onto you.  I admit to this.  I do it - but also sometimes its just the truth about people.  In my experience there is a big difference between those who cultivate and those who don't.  And those who don't like to bind you with their second attention, their dream minds into whatever world they create.  I try to treat all with respect and kindness - because that is the way.  But that doesn't mean I have to be blind to what people do and how they are.

 

 

 

 

The truth about people.  

 

There's no right or wrong here, but it's all perspective.  This is the perspective I choose.

 

a)  That person I am judging over there is actually Me.  We are cells of the same body.

b)  If I had been born when they were born to their parents, with their conditioning, I would do exactly the same thing that they are doing now.

c)  I can only recognize it if I have it inside of me too.  Otherwise I wouldn't know what it was.

d)  The black pupils of all of our eyes are the connection.  The connection with animals, people, insects.  It's all the same Consciousness but filtered through different brains.  A man's, vs. a rodent's.  We project our conditions from the inside out.

e)  There's no Good or Bad, nor Evil or Saintly.  If I ask a soccer mom what is evil, she could say the fellow down the block who sells drugs to kids.  If you ask the fellow down the block 'what's evil?', he'd say 'the SOB who ripped off my drug money last night".  It's all in how we choose to see it.  All of it.

f) I seem to have a choice.  I can choose to see things through the eyes of love (which does ultimately become the only practice left) and look at the dynamic behind the person or situation - and know that it's all part of the great Becoming, whatever that will be.   I know this because the action of the Dao is reversion. 

g)  It's a choice to view life as if the Divine were living within.  It's an enlightened choice for us.  The enlightened choice.

 

IMO

 

[dwai]

29 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

 

The truth about people.  

 

There's no right or wrong here, but it's all perspective.  This is the perspective I choose.

 

a)  That person I am judging over there is actually Me.  We are cells of the same body.

If I had been born when they were born to their parents, with their conditioning, I would do exactly the same thing that they are doing now.

c)  I can only recognize it if I have it inside of me too.  Otherwise I wouldn't know what it was.

d)  The black pupils of all of our eyes are the connection.  The connection with animals, people, insects.  It's all the same Consciousness but filtered through different brains.  A man's, vs. a rodent's.  We project our conditions from the inside out.

e)  There's no Good or Bad, nor Evil or Saintly.  If I ask a soccer mom what is evil, she could say the fellow down the block who sells drugs to kids.  If you ask the fellow down the block 'what's evil?', he'd say 'the SOB who ripped off my drug money last night".  It's all in how we choose to see it.  All of it.

f) I seem to have a choice.  I can choose to see things through the eyes of love (which does ultimately become the only practice left) and look at the dynamic behind the person or situation - and know that it's all part of the great Becoming, whatever that will be.   I know this because the action of the Dao is reversion. 

g)  It's a choice to view life as if the Divine were living within.  It's an enlightened choice for us.  The enlightened choice.

 

IMO

 

Something most beautiful I’ve heard said is “you cant help but love everyone as they are not apart from your Self, but you can dislike someone when they are exhibiting an unlikeable behavior...” 

 

who was it that said, “love the sinner but dislike the sin” (was it Jesus or Gandhi?) 

 

Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa said “love all, but the one who’s being bad, love from a distance”  

[dwai]

9 hours ago, johndoe2012 said:

You write as if it is a conscious choice of hiding stuff in our psyche.

 

I don't think it is a conscious choice at all. It requires free will to make a choice

Was it Carlos Castaneda who wrote about the “agreement” we make with ourself to behave in certain ways. 

 

From a karmic perspective, It is not “conscious” but there certainly  are tendencies we gravitate towards, that in turn attract certain situations and circumstances.
 

But there is also an element of “choice”, though if we don’t have sufficient clarity of mind, those choices don’t appear to be choices. 
 

In my experience, when we develop equanimity and recognize ourself as the witness consciousness, many dark and rotten secrets about our own psyche come to light. 
 

Depending on the degree of detachment we have developed, we can then observe and release those tendencies. 

[Bindi]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

@johndoe2012 and everyone,

 

What I was trying to get in the question is perhaps best illustrated by outer or ordinary life.  People have their comfort zones as @manitou pointed out.  many people run through a routine life - because of safety and sometimes even if this routine is painful in some ways at least it is familiar.  So there's a kind of comfort even in negative states.  This applies to internal emotional life as well - most people have a set range or feelings, responses and emotions which they habitually inhabit.  These may be part painful, part happy but in the end they are inertic.  Their mind is just running through certain strands and unless life kicks them in the butt somehow they are unlikely to leave this 'nest'.  So @Bindi this is what I mean about clinging to negative states.  I think we do it.  It is very hard to shake.  Very hard to get out of.

 

Seeing the emotional ‘system’ as a channel that is blocked informs my perspective which cannot then be otherwise, ie., a blocked channel is not exactly a choice, and the consequences of a blocked emotional channel is inertia, and this outcome is certainly not a choice. My perspective rests on my personal understanding of the energetic subtle body’s design, and my solution tackles the energy blocks directly by releasing unfelt emotions by allowing them to be felt. 

 

The alternative, attempting to solve emotional problems via a mentally chosen filter, in this case the spiritually accepted filters of compassion or oneness or non-judgement or [insert own], from my perspective seems to solve some of the emotional unease, and it can make you feel more successful in your spiritual endeavours, but these spiritual filters require these choices to be deliberately and repeatedly made  on the mental level. Perhaps this spiritual filter might become the dominant mental state, and to yourself and all those around you even, you can appear to have achieved a spiritualised outlook, but it isn’t ultimately authentic. Ultimately, these filters cannot remove the root emotional causes, so to me you’ve just learned an alternative mental strategy, one more in line with spiritual aspirations, but you can never let your guard down, you will still always have to catch yourself doing the wrong thing and correct it, no matter how rarely that is.  
 

Spiritual bypassing involves imposing on oneself higher truths that lie far beyond one’s immediate existential condition... Spiritual teachers often exhort us to be loving and compassionate, or to give up selfishness and aggression, but how can we do this if our habitual tendencies arise out of a whole system of psychological dynamics that we have never clearly seen or faced, much less worked with? -John Welwood

 

https://tricycle.org/magazine/psychology-awakening/

 

 

Quote

 

 

@manitou you mentioned judging people and this reflecting back onto you.  I admit to this.  I do it - but also sometimes its just the truth about people.  In my experience there is a big difference between those who cultivate and those who don't.  And those who don't like to bind you with their second attention, their dream minds into whatever world they create.  I try to treat all with respect and kindness - because that is the way.  But that doesn't mean I have to be blind to what people do and how they are.

 

@Nungali the symbolism is very interesting.  I think the role of Mercury/Hermes/Thoth is key. We mediate between the sun and moon and this is a key alchemical process.

 

Thanks everyone.

 

Edited October 15, 2020 by Bindi