Emotions are the path

[Apech]

15 minutes ago, Nungali said:

(not relevant now )

 

Oh!  Nungas you are as relevant as ever!!!!!

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

 

There are a few ways to deal with a wound.

.....

 

I have been thinking about bringing up   'The Wound ' .   Not a wound but THE wound .

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/moral-landscapes/201711/how-heal-the-primal-wound

 

A life long friend of mine has harassed me about this most of my life . 'Not owning my wound '  ... apparently .

 

She has been on about, all her life ,  her 'wound' . It appears it relates to this ; her father (who I only met in latter life )  was a Norwedgian immigrant, a healthy robust outdoors type, he would take her camping, bush walking , a nature lover and educator, she adored him. Then he somehow picked up an encephalic infection that gradually destroyed his brain.  he appeared to have become an imbecile, would run off and cause havoc in the neighbourhood and  embarrassment to the family. She witnessed the degeneration .

 

She has told me for years and years that I have not faced my wound and my emotional state is a cover up ,  I trued explaining things  but nope .  Now, only about 2 weeks ago she drops this bombshell casually in a conversation  about her 'wound '  "  ... so I felt this and that .... but its different for you as you dont have a Wound . "

 

 

But it is also something deeper , the way we respond or react to it, or something  ?    I mean, I described how I feel that grief has never left me over the passing of Sumer , but I dont feel that has changed my behaviour or outlook on life . My friend however feels her Wound  constantly impacts her , her moods, feelings , decisions, etc . It seems to be an underlying  base or singular  trauma  that effects us throughout life .

 

So I wanted to look into that .  I suppose the closest thing would have been the death of my own father . It happened when I was  late teen , so I was already 'drifting away' and becoming independent . I imagine if it happened when younger (as in the case of my friend ) I would have been effected immensely . Because back then he was great dad ... did all the things a father was supposed to be doing .

 

I sorta got a reverse wound .   My father had a high conditioning of 'Christian work ethic' . he had a bad hear attack early in life but had a 'miraculous recovery' . The Doc told him ; " Retire early , have fun, relax, you can still go out fishing , but put a motor on the boat, dont row it, you can still go out in the surf, but no more marathon swims , dont go way out or out in big seas ... etc " Now, I thought , after all that work, he gets to finally chill and have more fun.  Nope .  he just mopped around feeling sorry for himself . I remember asking him why he said he was useless now and a waste of space . That really shocked me , I didnt understand it , he went back to wrok and was dead in 2 months .

 

I think I made an unconscious resolve NEVER to do that  and moved the enjoyment and fulfilment of life up to number one priority, fuck working for the man, fuck the system ... I'm having fun while I can .     Some might see that as a problem and the reason I didnt 'get on ' in life   ( no permanent career, no firm base , no 'own family', no security no debts and no mortgage  ....     - a social failure    ) . Well, if that IS what happened , what a priceless gift !

 

The earlier damage is done to a child, the more likely it is to 'stick'  well into and maybe throughout adult life .  I have been involved with helping some  very young children through the vulnerable years ... just seemed to happen, some sort of karmic thing .  They where at risk. I would think, if I can get them through to 3 or 4 without them having a major trauma /s then they might have a chance .  I was able to do that in  ( thinks )   6 circumstances .    And for some reason, just after that 'danger period' has passed, they are removed  from my influence ... one way or another  (sometimes to be put back in danger again    ... but they all seem to have survived well and be moving forward now ). 

 

That used to,   be a source of sadness for me  , but I now realise that those little guys dont last long anyway ..... they grow up very fast  and that period of their life is gone soon, even if you stay together .

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

28 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Oh!  Nungas you are as relevant as ever!!!!!

 

 

Spoiler

I was asking Damla a question  .... he appears to have left .... do you want him back ? 

 

 

I wasn't sure you appreciated his 'offerings'

 

 

"

 

[Bindi]

5 hours ago, Apech said:

 

You do, though choose to remove the energy blockage - which previously you chose not to.  But I won't belabour the point.

 

 

I see it more that you for instance start with a chaotic life, one without real purpose perhaps, and you decide at some point that you need to get your shit together.  To do this you make a personal vow (or a public one for that matter) to try to be better.  So you do adopt a code which puts you under pressure - actual pressure in your life to change.  This might be to be more compassionate and loving ... but then the difficulty, the learning curve is to understand what these are in practice and not just nice sounding theory.  The bypassing occurs I think when people prefer to sit in a room thinking about compassion or how to 'be nice' so that they can feel better about themselves.  This is useless at best and counter productive at worst.

 

 

My motivation was the desire to feel ‘happy’ which I would recognise now as a desire to feel content. But where you made a vow and decided to adopt a code I worked on expelling what was making me unhappy. 
 

Do you agree with this (below) from Welwood, the originator of the term ‘spiritual bypassing’? Have you genuinely considered whether you are using your adopted codes to bypass your emotions?
 

http://www.johnwelwood.com/articles/TRIC_interview_uncut.doc

[Apech]

46 minutes ago, Bindi said:

My motivation was the desire to feel ‘happy’ which I would recognise now as a desire to feel content. But where you made a vow and decided to adopt a code I worked on expelling what was making me unhappy. 
 

Do you agree with this (below) from Welwood, the originator of the term ‘spiritual bypassing’? Have you genuinely considered whether you are using your adopted codes to bypass your emotions?
 

http://www.johnwelwood.com/articles/TRIC_interview_uncut.doc

 

Thank you for the download - I read most of it but it got a bit repetitive.  I can say without a shadow of doubt that spiritual bypassing is not me.  In fact I abhor it.  I was trying to explain why a code could be helpful to one's development, that's all.  I wasn't suggesting it as the be all and end all of the path.  But it is important for most people to corral their chaotic lives.

 

Do you still consider a desire for happiness or a desire to be content sufficient as a goal?

[Bindi]

23 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Thank you for the download - I read most of it but it got a bit repetitive.  I can say without a shadow of doubt that spiritual bypassing is not me.  In fact I abhor it.  I was trying to explain why a code could be helpful to one's development, that's all.  I wasn't suggesting it as the be all and end all of the path.  But it is important for most people to corral their chaotic lives.

 

It’s always worth checking, it’s an easy trap to fall into. I am truly glad to hear that you don’t do this. 

 

23 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

Do you still consider a desire for happiness or a desire to be content sufficient as a goal?

No! In following what has been presented to me, my goals have concomitantly adapted and morphed out of sight! 

[Michael Sternbach]

On 14/10/2020 at 10:30 PM, Nungali said:

 

Yup !    We can look at it several ways .

 

Conscious / unconscious  ( 'the Underworld ' )   -  Mercury can travel between both realms - the 'Psychopomp'  ( in Greek mythology, a guide of souls to the place of the dead. ;  the spiritual guide of a living person's soul ).

 

Nunga,

 

First off, an after-thought (or two) on your previous post:

 

Well, didn't Crowley say somewhere in the Book of Thoth that Anubis is actually another form of Thoth (Hermes)?

 

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Also in my model the way the inner (personal ) planets align with the  unconscious and its 'drives'   ( where here, Mercury is in its aspect  within the unconscious )   The Moon is the symbol of the unconscious and around it in an upright  triangle  with Mercury at apex and Venus / Mars as the base line .

 

In what you mentioned above  ( Sun Moon Mercury )  we can see mercury as air   Sun as Fire and Moon as water *   we have   Fire and water as the base line with 'Air' above as the 'regulator '.  This is not the air of the 4 fold elemental plan of nature and manifestation but the 'spiritual air '  / 'pneuma' ( pre-Socratis meaning ;  " Pneuma, "air in motion, breath, wind", is equivalent in the material monism of Anaximenes to aer (ἀήρ, "air") as the element from which all else originated . " ) of the triangular 3 fold pattern  behind  manifestation and nature , ie.  'the ideal' .. . . that manifests in 'the real '

 

Comes to mind that the Greek words 'aer' and 'aether' are in fact related to each other.

 

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And the 4th way  .....   I forgot about while writing about the 3 above .    

 

 

Nevermind. I forgot my comment on it too! 

 

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Yup ² .

 

Yup squared? Wow, I am really overwhelmed by this kind of agreement! 

 

Ok, now to your latest post in reply to me:

 

On 14/10/2020 at 11:53 PM, Nungali said:

Yes. This point has led to some confusion with modern occultists .  

 

As well as in SO many forum debates! 

 

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The Mothers of 'Invention'    

 

 

 

yes.  the model contains 3 triangles .... of course       Jupiter and Saturn (which in my model is below the 'abyss' ) are the valve or gateway to the 3 outer planets and the transpersonal forces . They represent the forces of 'mercy and severity ' .

 

I did make an attempt to overlay the Tree of Life with your astrological scheme, but I did not get very far... The sephiroth just don't seem to match up with the positions of the planets in the latter!

 

On another note, while I can see how Venus and Mars may represent our instinctive drives working through our 'lunar' unconscious mind, your model implies that Jupiter and Saturn stand in a similar relationship to our 'solar' conscious mind. Now this does make sense in certain terms, but do you have any thoughts to share on this?

 

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Could you explain that more for me  ? 

 

Sure.

 

Just like the signs of the zodiac can be divided into diurnal and nocturnal ones, so can the classical planets. Here, Jupiter and Saturn, along with the Sun, are considered diurnal - note that all these, unbeknownst to the ancients who came up with the theory, are gaseous bodies! Venus and Mars, along with the Moon, are of nocturnal nature - and hey, all these consist of solid rock! Only Mercury - always the odd ball - can be either diurnal or nocturnal, depending on whether he rises before or after the Sun (i.e., if he is on an earlier or later degree of the zodiac than the latter).

 

This doctrine (almost forgotten in modern astrology) was traditionally commonly used to help determine a planet's strength in a chart, depending on whether its own nature was or wasn't in line with the nature of the chart overall, that is, with its being a 'day chart' or a  'night chart' (the Sun being above or below the horizon respectively).

 

But little has been said by the classical authors about the implications of the two planetary types in terms of psychological functions (which was not exactly astrology's strength in pre-Jungian days)... And that's where the scheme you worked out really seems to come in handy, even including Mercury's ambivalent position in it.

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Nunga,

 

First off, an after-thought (or two) on your previous post:

 

Well, didn't Crowley say somewhere in the Book of Thoth that Anubis is actually another form of Thoth (Hermes)?

 

Probably.   Maybe he got it from 'The Secret Wisdom'  or from looking at  stele

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

Comes to mind that the Greek words 'aer' and 'aether' are in fact related to each other.

 

 

Nevermind. I forgot my comment on it too! 

 

 

Yup squared? Wow, I am really overwhelmed by this kind of agreement! 

 

Ok, now to your latest post in reply to me:

 

 

As well as in SO many forum debates! 

 

 

I did make an attempt to overlay the Tree of Life with your astrological scheme, but I did not get very far... The sephiroth just don't seem to match up with the positions of the planets in the latter!

 

Nah,   you have  to overlay my astrological scheme on   MY Tree of Life  .      Mine shows  ' The Fall of  Man  ( Mars ) ' .  In the (cosmic) Tree of Life , Mars is 'up there'  as  a directional and focusing force . And of course , I am using extra planets (and Pluto)

 

From the bottom going up ;

 

At the bottom ;   ' Personna '  ( all the above forces are expressed through this  but are 'flavourde' changed and adapted by one's interaction with environment (any thing or   external to the self )

 

Then an upright triangle Mars Venus  with Mercury at apex, Moon in centre

 

Then a  point down (Sun ) triangle with Jupiter Saturn  above

 

Then an upright triangle  Uranus Neptune   Pluto

 

(and again, above this in a kind of 'Tzim-trum ' arrangement  another upright triangle ; Nuit Hadit RHK  (or one's chosen and preferred )

 

(The details are starting to get foggy ... its all in my  records ..... in my magical chest , along with the bats ) 

 

Quote

 

On another note, while I can see how Venus and Mars may represent our instinctive drives working through our 'lunar' unconscious mind, your model implies that Jupiter and Saturn stand in a similar relationship to our 'solar' conscious mind. Now this does make sense in certain terms, but do you have any thoughts to share on this?

 

Here is two  ;

 

"balance each thought with the opposite '

 

'  Remember that unbalanced force is evil; that unbalanced severity is but cruelty and oppression; but that also unbalanced mercy is but weakness which would allow and abet Evil. Act passionately; think rationally; be Thyself '

The two heads of the Eagle of the Senate

 

 

(masonic badge ^, , my senate  badge does not have 'St George ' and is all red as it doubles as an alchemical symbol )

 

 

(Saturn sorta replaces Mars here )

 

And now, this Jupiter Saturn gateway  'narrows '     

 

https://earthsky.org/astronomy-essentials/great-jupiter-saturn-conjunction-dec-21-2020

 

 

Quote

 

 

Sure.

 

Just like the signs of the zodiac can be divided into diurnal and nocturnal ones, so can the classical planets. Here, Jupiter and Saturn, along with the Sun, are considered diurnal - note that all these, unbeknownst to the ancients who came up with the theory, are gaseous bodies! Venus and Mars, along with the Moon, are of nocturnal nature - and hey, all these consist of solid rock! Only Mercury - always the odd ball - can be either diurnal or nocturnal, depending on whether he rises before or after the Sun (i.e., if he is on an earlier or later degree of the zodiac than the latter).

 

Ahhh ... its starting to sound familiar . 

 

 

 

Quote

 

This doctrine (almost forgotten in modern astrology) was traditionally commonly used to help determine a planet's strength in a chart, depending on whether its own nature was or wasn't in line with the nature of the chart overall, that is, with its being a 'day chart' or a  'night chart' (the Sun being above or below the horizon respectively).

 

But little has been said by the classical authors about the implications of the two planetary types in terms of psychological functions (which was not exactly astrology's strength in pre-Jungian days)... And that's where the scheme you worked out really seems to come in handy, even including Mercury's ambivalent position in it.

 

How I make it handy is look at the relationships of the positions in my model ( the overal map of human psychology ) and then overlay my natal chart on it  and observe what types of aspects are in my chart and how that realtes to their positions on my map .

 

But its been a while since I worked on that .

Edited October 16, 2020 by Nungali

[manitou]

23 hours ago, Nungali said:

But it is also something deeper , the way we respond or react to it, or something  ?    I mean, I described how I feel that grief has never left me over the passing of Sumer , but I dont feel that has changed my behaviour or outlook on life . My friend however feels her Wound  constantly impacts her , her moods, feelings , decisions, etc . It seems to be an underlying  base or singular  trauma  that effects us throughout life .

 

 

If your friend is conditioned to believe that life is two dimensional and doesn't understand the deeper dynamics, her whole consciousness would be undiluted within the grief, changing her outlook.  If someone understands the metaphysical workings of life and who is undergoing an alchemical change of his own - as many of us here seem to be doing here - your grief doesn't grab your totality, because your vision of 'reality' is different.  We sort of become one of those asses with human heads.  Something different altogether.  Maybe a better metaphor could be found......

[manitou]

On 10/15/2020 at 10:36 AM, freeform said:

 

There are a few ways to deal with a wound.

 

It could be an open wound - still excruciatingly sore, sensitive, vulnerable to infection... This is the reactive trauma - if someone pokes it, we lash out and react out of pain... It's possible for it to be infected and for it to spread to other parts of us. The pain of it colours all our experiences. The choices we make and what we do is out of 'service to' this open wound.

 

Sometimes these wounds will heal up to some extent with time. It's like they're scabbed over, but still sore. They're still causing us to limp, but we've forgotten all about it. It affects our actions in the background - we might decide not to go on that long hike with that promising love interest because of the limp... but we don't connect it to the wound any longer.

 

We could work to heal that wound. That starts with finding it if it's been forgotten. We must deal with what caused it. We disinfect it and bandage it, we soothe it with some healing salve... We deal with the limp it's created.

 

When it's healed, it becomes a scar.  But now when someone pokes it, it doesn't hurt as much. We have a little more choice in how we react to the poking. We don't avoid going near it as much. In fact we might wear this scar as a badge of honour. It still affects our actions - but quite likely in a rather positive way. We might go out of our way to help those with a similar wound. We might teach our children how to avoid this wound in the future.

 

That, to me is self development.

 

But in the Daoist traditions I'm in, we focus on one thing. We focus simply on shedding our skin - layer by layer, until we become light.

 

(Become light is an important part of this metaphor - as it appears that many paths forcus on realising that we are light - in the alchemical Daoist traditions our aim is to become the light fully in this lifetime.)

 

Well, I'm guessing that AA took a lot of wisdom from the Daoists.  If done earnestly, the light does finally emerge.  40 years of doing this earnestly has finally paid off.  I am finally seeing the benefits.  I am now a seer because of the inner journey that I've taken.  This was nothing I was looking for, it has just gradually happened.

 

On 10/15/2020 at 10:36 AM, freeform said:

There are plusses and minuses of doing things this way. In some way, having a scar can be a very positive lesson - it can help propel us to be better people. We might be kinder or more patient and understanding with people because we know that they also have sore wounds... we might be motivated to help others who suffered in a similar way.

 

The 12th step, and it's one that is worked for life.  It's no longer a step for me, it is my nature now.

 

On 10/15/2020 at 10:36 AM, freeform said:

The alchemical Daoist way is more about shedding everything. Including the kindness that comes about as a reaction to having healed a past wound. The idea is that eventually, as we start to become light, what shines out is pure virtue - or the five lights of virtue...

 

In the Daoist approach, the ideal circumstance in your story would be that you completely 'forget' that you were ever an alcoholic... like you might have a clear memory of it, but it would be no more pertinent than the memory that your first car was blue.

 

 

Yes, this happened many years ago.  You describe it accurately.   It affects me in no way any more, other than to reach my hand out to help when appropriate.

 

 

On 10/15/2020 at 10:36 AM, freeform said:

When I first understood this, I found it a little troubling to be honest.

 

First of all - I have scars. And I'm aware that they've shaped me and my behaviour in various beneficial ways.

 

Secondly - does this mean that someone who hasn't been a good person can simply shed their skin in the same way and not have to have a scar? (I later learned it's not that simple, of course).

 

There's the prodigal son, I guess.  Yes, recovery from anything that has required the inner work is cause for jubilation.  It ultimately leads to the I Am consciousness, as you described.  

 

On 10/15/2020 at 10:36 AM, freeform said:

There are definitely self development methods in Daoism. In fact martial arts training is one of the primary methods and Chinese Medicine (with all that entails) is the other. But in alchemical schools, self development isn't considered an end in itself... it might be required in so much as it might assist in actually going through the alchemical training - but to be healthy, strong, happy and virtuous isn't the goal.

 

 

 

What an exquisite post,  freeform. BTW, I love your name.  Freeform.  No structure needed any longer.

 

Your mention of martial arts and TCM does answer the question for me as to the Daoist route.  I see that a young boy can start in MA to be cool.  And down the road he finds out that the character building he's received in MA training is a precursor for the real path that lies ahead.  The inner journey.  The true warrior.  

 

I really appreciated your beautiful post, ff.  The beauty of all paths meeting within metaphysics, the nexus - is something that I am grateful for daily.

[Bindi]

On 16/10/2020 at 1:36 AM, freeform said:

 

There are a few ways to deal with a wound.

 

It could be an open wound - still excruciatingly sore, sensitive, vulnerable to infection... This is the reactive trauma - if someone pokes it, we lash out and react out of pain... It's possible for it to be infected and for it to spread to other parts of us. The pain of it colours all our experiences. The choices we make and what we do is out of 'service to' this open wound.

 

Sometimes these wounds will heal up to some extent with time. It's like they're scabbed over, but still sore. They're still causing us to limp, but we've forgotten all about it. It affects our actions in the background - we might decide not to go on that long hike with that promising love interest because of the limp... but we don't connect it to the wound any longer.

 

We could work to heal that wound. That starts with finding it if it's been forgotten. We must deal with what caused it. We disinfect it and bandage it, we soothe it with some healing salve... We deal with the limp it's created.

 

When it's healed, it becomes a scar.  But now when someone pokes it, it doesn't hurt as much. We have a little more choice in how we react to the poking. We don't avoid going near it as much. In fact we might wear this scar as a badge of honour. It still affects our actions - but quite likely in a rather positive way. We might go out of our way to help those with a similar wound. We might teach our children how to avoid this wound in the future.

 

That, to me is self development.

 

But in the Daoist traditions I'm in, we focus on one thing. We focus simply on shedding our skin - layer by layer, until we become light.

 

(Become light is an important part of this metaphor - as it appears that many paths forcus on realising that we are light - in the alchemical Daoist traditions our aim is to become the light fully in this lifetime.)

 

There are plusses and minuses of doing things this way. In some way, having a scar can be a very positive lesson - it can help propel us to be better people. We might be kinder or more patient and understanding with people because we know that they also have sore wounds... we might be motivated to help others who suffered in a similar way.

 

The alchemical Daoist way is more about shedding everything. Including the kindness that comes about as a reaction to having healed a past wound. The idea is that eventually, as we start to become light, what shines out is pure virtue - or the five lights of virtue...

 

I’m curious, is shedding everything and becoming light a similar goal to creating and nurturing the ‘immortal foetus’, or is it something completely different? 

 

On 16/10/2020 at 1:36 AM, freeform said:

 

In the Daoist approach, the ideal circumstance in your story would be that you completely 'forget' that you were ever an alcoholic... like you might have a clear memory of it, but it would be no more pertinent than the memory that your first car was blue.

 

When I first understood this, I found it a little troubling to be honest.

 

First of all - I have scars. And I'm aware that they've shaped me and my behaviour in various beneficial ways.

 

Secondly - does this mean that someone who hasn't been a good person can simply shed their skin in the same way and not have to have a scar? (I later learned it's not that simple, of course).

 

There are definitely self development methods in Daoism. In fact martial arts training is one of the primary methods and Chinese Medicine (with all that entails) is the other. But in alchemical schools, self development isn't considered an end in itself... it might be required in so much as it might assist in actually going through the alchemical training - but to be healthy, strong, happy and virtuous isn't the goal.

 

 

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

I’m curious, is shedding everything and becoming light a similar goal to creating and nurturing the ‘immortal foetus’, or is it something completely different? 

 

 

 

I am thinking there is more to this immortal foetus  than  'Daoist Immortality '   ?   -  I mean ;  why a foetus rather than 'spirit', essence '  etc . 

 

In western magic it has been referred to as 'The Immortal Osiris'  .

 

regarding the use of term foetus , I am reminded of two things

 

The Minerval Degree  -    0 Degree ,  'preliminary to the 1st  ( and first 3 )  Degrees  (  Birth , Life and Death )  . The Minerval degree represents a 9 month gestation period  triggered by the  Minerval ceremony  ( a first dedication and declaration of 'stepping onto the path' ) .  A great space to be in  ,  nurtured ,   protected  from   ..... ' what is to come '         safe warm and fuzzy  .... with a feeling of something immanent

 

 

 

 

 

And this Egyptian  ' God'

 

 

After the 'Great Journey'   on the 'Great Wheel' , one comes back to the starting position  (although changed by the experience  / 'circulations'  . . .  in the alchemical sense     ) . I have found this personally ... the fruit of my shamanic practice and experience... the support of 'country'  ( 'Mum' , 'Mother Nature ' )  ,  a relaxing 'passive' acceptance .

 

 

                                                    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2020 by Nungali

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

I am thinking there is more to this immortal foetus  than  'Daoist Immortality '   ?   -  I mean ;  why a foetus rather than 'spirit', essence '  etc . 

 

In western magic it has been referred to as 'The Immortal Osiris'  .

 

regarding the use of term foetus , I am reminded of two things

 

The Minerval Degree  -    0 Degree ,  'preliminary to the 1st  ( and first 3 )  Degrees  (  Birth , Life and Death )  . The Minerval degree represents a 9 month gestation period  triggered by the  Minerval ceremony  ( a first dedication and declaration of 'stepping onto the path' ) .  A great space to be in  ,  nurtured ,   protected  from   ..... ' what is to come '         safe warm and fuzzy  .... with a feeling of something immanent

 

 

 

 

 

And this Egyptian  ' God'

 

 

After the 'Great Journey'   on the 'Great Wheel' , one comes back to the starting position  (although changed by the experience  / 'circulations'  . . .  in the alchemical sense     ) . I have found this personally ... the fruit of my shamanic practice and experience... the support of 'country'  ( 'Mum' , 'Mother Nature ' )  ,  a relaxing 'passive' acceptance .

 

 

                                                    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In sources related to the early Way of the Celestial Masters a rite called heqi is described which aims to create a perfected being:

 

 “On the left the Supreme, on the right the Mysterious-Old, and the Most High: These three pneumas are born together within our bodies and inchoately become one. This is named Peach Vigor  (Taokang)... The yang pneuma turns to the left, yin pneuma proceeds to the right... He [Peach Vigor] stands precisely in the gate of destiny (mingmen).“
 

Again there is one on the left and one on the right,  and a third Higher One which suggests to me in the middle and above the two on each side, not so different to many of the pics you’ve been posting. Together these three are the just formed or rudimentary immortal foetus, born in the mingmen which is at navel height towards the spine, thus starting the journey in the lower dantian. 

I see this as a description of a subtle energy event, it seems the immortal foetus is more substantial than ‘spirit’, that it has subtle substance, and that it has the capacity to develop. 
 

 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2020 by Bindi

[freeform]

10 hours ago, Bindi said:

I’m curious, is shedding everything and becoming light a similar goal to creating and nurturing the ‘immortal foetus’, or is it something completely different? 

Part of the same yes  

[Luxin]

We shouldn't have said that. Sorry

Edited October 24, 2020 by Luxin
inappropriate

[Apech]

Well ... ignoring the superfluous conversation of the last page or so - this brings us to an important question:  If emotions are the path, what is the goal?  Here is a quote from The Journey to the East by Herman Hesse pub. 1932, just for interest since I am reading it -

 

 

I'm not sure how valid it is for people to have their individual goals - but certainly what he writes here of the League applies to TheDaoBums I suspect.

 

 

[Damla]

On 17.10.2020 at 2:40 PM, Apech said:

Well ... ignoring the superfluous conversation of the last page or so - this brings us to an important question:  If emotions are the path, what is the goal?  Here is a quote from The Journey to the East by Herman Hesse pub. 1932, just for interest since I am reading it -

 

 

I'm not sure how valid it is for people to have their individual goals - but certainly what he writes here of the League applies to TheDaoBums I 

Edited November 2, 2020 by Damla
Accounnt closing

[manitou]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

Well ... ignoring the superfluous conversation of the last page or so - this brings us to an important question:  If emotions are the path, what is the goal?

 

As I see it, the goal is to remove as many conditionings as possible to get down to the I Am.  We are the living, breathing, sensory aspect of the Dao.  The meditations have gotten to the point where there are no distractions, the inner work has been done to clear the way to clarity.  Once that has been done, it is as though there is a well of untapped information that is pulled out as needed - even if you didn't 'know' the answer, you can 'see' it.  It never seems to end or diminish.

 

This is my experience only.  This, for me, has developed since Joe's death.

[manitou]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

I'm not sure how valid it is for people to have their individual goals - but certainly what he writes here of the League applies to TheDaoBums I suspect.

 

Goals confuse me.  I've never in my life set one.  As I look back over the 73 years of my life, it just sort of fell together.  But I imagine setting a goal in early adulthood would be a magnificent thing - 

 

I remember in the Gandhi movie, a reporter remarked to Gandhi 'You certainly are ambitions!'  Gandhi's response was 'I hope not'.

[thelerner]

<Damla given week suspension, perhaps more pending discussion>

I admire how you kept the conversation going, ignoring the trolling.

[Apech]

3 hours ago, manitou said:

 

As I see it, the goal is to remove as many conditionings as possible to get down to the I Am.  We are the living, breathing, sensory aspect of the Dao.  The meditations have gotten to the point where there are no distractions, the inner work has been done to clear the way to clarity.  Once that has been done, it is as though there is a well of untapped information that is pulled out as needed - even if you didn't 'know' the answer, you can 'see' it.  It never seems to end or diminish.

 

This is my experience only.  This, for me, has developed since Joe's death.

 

 

So far I've noticed two versions of goals.  One is like yours - to remove or strip away to become 'I am' or maybe 'light' or some other definition of the underlying consciousness.  The other is to construct or create a foetus or body that is immortal.  I wonder if these two are in some way reconcilable(?).  And more importantly how do emotions or dealing with emotions result in either of these?

 

 

[liminal_luke]

17 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

So far I've noticed two versions of goals.  One is like yours - to remove or strip away to become 'I am' or maybe 'light' or some other definition of the underlying consciousness.  The other is to construct or create a foetus or body that is immortal.  I wonder if these two are in some way reconcilable(?).  And more importantly how do emotions or dealing with emotions result in either of these?

 

 

 

I´ll offer a nonexpert opinion.

 

The process of "creating the immortal fetus" is, in it´s essence, about being centered.  Yin and yang merge into one in the center, in this sacred protected place of stillness and silence.  And when yin and yang come together, babies cannot be far behind.  

 

Dealing with emotions is also a process of coming to center.  I like what Freeform says about connecting "through" an emotion to the underlying stillness.  The seeming storminess of emotions is actually a consequence of not feeling them.  When an emotion is felt completely and utterly, when there´s no resistence to emotion, the experience takes on this quality of centered stillness which is at the heart of alchemy.

Edited October 17, 2020 by liminal_luke

[Apech]

2 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I´ll offer a nonexpert opinion.

 

The process of "creating the immortal fetus" is, in it´s essence, about being centered.  Yin and yang merge into one in the center, in this sacred protected place of stillness and silence.  And when yin and yang come together, babies cannot be far behind.  

 

Dealing with emotions is also a process of coming to center.  I like what Freeflow says about connecting "through" an emotion to the underlying stillness.  The seeming storminess of emotions is actually a consequence of not feeling them.  When an emotion is felt completely and utterly, when there´s no resistence to emotion, the experience takes on this quality of centered stillness which is at the heart of alchemy.

 

Just for emphasis.

[Apech]

@Nungali and @Michael Sternbach particularly because you posted Egyptian symbolism before - I just wanted to reference this to do with the idea of the goal as the creation of a foetus.  Below is a downloadable pdf entitled 'The sunrise as the birth of a baby'.  It's an Egyptological paper so they see things at best in terms of cosmology - while actually its alchemical.  I would suggest read page 4 onward ...

 

http://www.franz-renggli.ch/en/artikel/The_surise_as_birth_of_a_baby.pdf

 

The sunrise or vision of the sunrise in Egyptian mysticism is about seeing the nature of things revealed - or the source or origin of things more precisely and is their version of the goal - or at least a stage toward that goal.

 

 

Edited October 17, 2020 by Apech

[Bindi]

 

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

Just for emphasis.

 

Hmm, what about Ananda from the phrase ‘Sat-Chit-Ananda’. 
 

From yogapedia:

• Ananda: bliss, a state of pure happiness, joy and sensual pleasure

 

And from a Chinese perspective there is Shen Ming:

 

There is a term in Chinese Medicine for when your eyes are shining brilliantly – we call it Shen Ming (神 明), and it often translated as ‘the radiance of the spirits.’ 
 

Shen Ming is a concept that appears throughout Chinese Medicine and philosophy that refers to the luminosity and radiance of our true Self. When you see someone whose eyes are shining brilliantly, like they are awake and filled with bliss, that is Shen Ming. We see it very often in babies, who for the most part don’t have much in the way of their pure joy in life.