Emotions are the path

[Apech]

@Yueya thank you for that, it was quite beautiful, even though I'm not sure I understand it all - due to my limited grasp of some things.

 

@Bindi, @dwai, @freeform - and anyone else - I think we lack a common agreed set of terms for some of the 'things' we are dealing with here.  I have tried to stick to normal English and not go off into Buddhist tantra or Egyptian mysticism or other systems because sometimes technical language can help and sometimes it can obscure.  I am not saying this to discourage you from posting as you will  because I am enjoying reading it all and hope you will all continue but perhaps we need to accept among us as a group that there will be problems when mixing say, yoga terms with Daoist alchemy.  If we accept first that we are all speaking from our own experience and expressing something valid in our own sense then we can look more for common ground and affirmation - and move forward that way.

 

I have been thinking, in terms of emotion as the path, how Buddhism and some other systems characterise emotions as poisons or delusion or confusion etc.  It is as if they are saying we need to get rid of them - and then we will get to some pure state.  This to me is very dualistic.  It is valid to a certain extent for a person who is in regular emotional turmoil to think about purging anger and passion and so on - because they feel sick with it all.  And beyond that someone might look at their emotions and say I will transform them into something higher.  But I think 'emotions are the path' is saying something even more profound than that and something more real and human too.  What it is saying I can't at the moment access in words that make a whole lot of sense.  So I'm going to leave it there for now and wait for a more inspired moment.

 

 

[Bindi]

In non-technical language another piece of the puzzle was given to me from a friend who had a dream for me - in her dream she was a messenger who had to deliver a letter to me - and in short her dream was about passing three tests. The first was a test of courage, I had to ‘use my strength’ to face what I most feared In the world, the second was a requirement to ‘climb the mountain’ which to me in retrospect was surmounting a multitude of emotional issues, and the third test was to ‘not respond’, in full I was informed that to pass this test I had to “Do not speak, do not move, do not look to the left or the right, do not respond”. This is a non-emotional test, and only to be done after the first two had been completed. 
 

‘Do not respond’ sounds more ‘spiritual’, more in line with Buddhism or Daoism, but in this message to me it was the third test, there was a definite order in which to do things. This all boils down in my mind to 1. Face the fear in the gut, 2. Attend to the feelings in the heart, and 3. Get out of the way and allow the subtle body system to do its thing, don’t be distracted by Siddhi’s, and don’t engage in the dynamics of the two polarised side channels. It’s doing the third test at the beginning where I think things can go wrong. 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

I have been thinking, in terms of emotion as the path, how Buddhism and some other systems characterise emotions as poisons or delusion or confusion etc.  It is as if they are saying we need to get rid of them - and then we will get to some pure state.  This to me is very dualistic.  It is valid to a certain extent for a person who is in regular emotional turmoil to think about purging anger and passion and so on - because they feel sick with it all.  And beyond that someone might look at their emotions and say I will transform them into something higher.  But I think 'emotions are the path' is saying something even more profound than that and something more real and human too.  What it is saying I can't at the moment access in words that make a whole lot of sense.  So I'm going to leave it there for now and wait for a more inspired moment.

 I think you will find this difference in approach depending on the system. One very clear illustration is in that between tantra and Advaita Vedanta. 
 

In one approach within Advaita Vedanta, emotions are to be observed as the witness consciousness and they will lose their “power” (of both degeneration and transformation) on the personality that is seeking some specific goal/outcome of their practice. Since the personality and it’s story is just an appearance in YOU the Nondual Consciousness, nothing real remains to be done as you have total clarity as to what your real nature is. 
 

Tantra takes the approach that emotions are to be sat with, and transformed — not just for catharsis but from the realization that the emotion arises in YOU, the nondual consciousness. In this way, you are not the unaffected witness consciousness but all that is happening is within you alone, so are very much part of you. So by recognizing that, it becomes clear that emotion is not something that needs to be avoided or chased after, there is a release from its (earlier) grips. 
 

Both lead to the same outcome, but depending on the individual personality, one might be more applicable than the other. 
 

There isn’t (and I’m not suggesting that you are saying this at all) One correct way to approach this — all nondual approaches are valid in this regard. 

[manitou]

I think too that we are all approaching the Void, but from our different traditions.  Personally, I love the mixture because of the dynamics of many paths meeting together in the void hub of the wheel.  The utility of the wagon wheel is because of the void in the center.  The utility of the cup is in the void.  (Lao Tzu)  So it may be desirable to be willing to blend viewpoints together because us moths are getting mighty close to the flame.    I think the real truth can be seen (and felt) in the connection of all, and we all dwell in the place of metaphysical understanding.

 

The action of the Dao is reversion.  Back to itself.  As the dao gets closer to reunion, time seems to speed up.  Things are totally upside down right now.

 

(buckles seat belt)

[freeform]

11 hours ago, Apech said:

But I think 'emotions are the path' is saying something even more profound than that and something more real and human too.

 

I'm embarrassed to admit this, but I've spent some time antagonising crabs at the beach...

 

I noticed that their running away behaviour is based on a set of rules that take into account my (the antagonist's) distance from them and the distance of the water from them. After a while I could see the exact 'animal algorithm' at work. I could eventually discern exactly the distance that triggered its response and what the response would be depending on my angle of approach... I knew exactly when it'll react, which direction it'll run and where it would stop.

 

Maybe one way of saying it is if you follow the emotions back to their source, then you'll find the deepest aspects of who you are.

 

Like miners that hit a vein of cobalt know that if they follow that vein they're likely to hit gold at some point.

 

The view of my particular tradition is that as the emotions become more free (through qigong/neigong), we progressively lose our 'autonomousness' - emotions stop being the automatic reaction that drives our behaviour. We stop being the crab that is triggered into an automatic response, and as a result we gain a little more room for our spirit to play in... some more freedom of experience and expression... The more subtle and nuanced emotional states that are often depicted in Eastern art (as @Taomeow pointed out) start to replace the more raw, reactive emotions.

 

It's something my friends and family noticed in me. That I simply stopped giving a f**k. The old buttons that they went for just didn't produce the same result. I stopped feeling triggered or offended. I stopped feeling automatically embarrassed, excited or angry at the stuff that used to trigger that sort of reaction.

 

Follow that vein further towards gold, and we come to the 'higher mind' that functions from the Virtues instead... It appears less like a stimulus-response algorithm because instead of sampling the tiny dataset of our acquired self, we sample a far broader dataset that includes previously unavailable responses - like true, unconditional compassion, true integrity ('true' as in it's not simply protecting some sort of self-image)... deep wisdom etc.

 

It's said that the virtues don't move and shift and respond like the emotions do - they're more like stable, constant states that shine through and continually inform our action.

 

It's not that emotions are got rid of or overcome, but that we've cleared the biases, delusions and obstructions to reveal their true nature - and their true nature is a pure, benevolent expression of our spiritual nature after it's been 'refracted' into our incarnate self.

 

That, at least in Daoism is the pinnacle of self development. This is what the attainment of Shengren is.

 

Spiritual development goes one critical step deeper... it reaches out past that point of refraction to our Original Spirit.

Edited October 20, 2020 by freeform

[dwai]

11 hours ago, manitou said:

The action of the Dao is reversion.  Back to itself.  As the dao gets closer to reunion, time seems to speed up.  Things are totally upside down right now.

Boy are they upside down! I decided to get off the roller coaster for a bit — the rat race was a bit too much for me this past year.
 

Give the world a pandemic and they’ll hunker down and bury their heads deeper in the ground (or up their backsides) — things seemed to go from crazy to ridiculous. People that have jobs end up working more hours with crazy demands on delivering results which are often arbitrarily made up given that there IS a pandemic underway and most business is not as usual anymore. 

[Nungali]

22 hours ago, Yueya said:

I’ve been reading this topic with interest. It’s a great comfort for me to hear discussion circling around the essence of the type of practice that’s central to my life. Much has been mentioned that I could follow up on, however due to my own energy restraints I’ll limit myself to what for me is a central theme: 

 

The term ‘shen ming’ has many associations in Daoism.

 

And what you wrote below has many associations in other spiritual paths . As I read through your post, a few different concepts from different traditions / understandings arose .  In many cases they are complex, but 'vague' in other  areas , perhaps due to their 'subtle' nature and action . As you wrote, they have  been   ;  " mentioned in the mythologies of many cultures."

 

 

 

22 hours ago, Yueya said:

 

 

The usage that most interests me is Shen Ming as bright spirits. These sun-like ‘shining ones’, mentioned in the mythologies of many cultures, have what seems to we humans as infinite compassion and wisdom. They can be felt ‘inside’ but have an objective existence of their own and live in realms of subtler energies. 

 

Here I am thinking of the bright shining spirits of the Amesha Spenta Mainyu . 

 

" A brilliant, positive, constructive, and beneficent spirit that seeks wisdom is called a spenta mainyu.

 

Mainyu is beyond our senses, though perhaps not beyond our feelings and intuition.

 

Amesha

The Amesha Spentas (amesha meaning eternal or ageless & spenta meaning brilliance, enlightenment and beneficence) are also ideals to which humans can aspire ^1. 

• Vohu Mano in human beings is the good mind.
• Asha is principled, honest, beneficent, ordered, lawful living - for some, righteousness and piety.
• Khshathra is having dominion and sovereignty over one's life.
• Armaiti is serenity.
• Haurvatat is being holistic and healthy. It is also seeking excellence in all we do.
• Ameretat is transcending mortal limitations through good health, by handing down the spiritual flame or mainyu athra, and by building an enduring, undying spirit ^2., the united fravashi.

Amesha Spenta

a brilliant, positive, constructive, and beneficent spirit - allows a person to perceive their higher calling. "

 

-  ZHI   (Zoroastrian Heritage Institute )

 

 

 

 

22 hours ago, Yueya said:

 

Beginning with the Neiye, various Daoist writings suggests they will come to us if we cleanse our heart-minds. Perhaps this is true. I’d say it’s a mystery why they make themselves known to some people but not others. The Shen Ming choose, not us. They are definitely not at our beck and call. 

 

I think that, by our previous actions and aspirations we may be able to 'help them decide ' .

22 hours ago, Yueya said:

 

The Shen Ming do not want us to worship them, nor do they want dependence. They reveal glimpses of themselves only to show their existence. They may give us guidance when absolutely necessary but mostly leave us to find our own way. It’s like they’re there but always just out of reach. Hence, their presence feels like it’s always receding. 

 

In a totally different contest, this description reminded me of what is called 'the Diving Thought-Adjuster ' in the Urantia Book.  We can be encouraged but not actually 'led along'  we need to make certain decisions ourselves .  One thing about them 'being just out of reach' and 'receding'  , it drives us onwards , in our aspirations . See note 1 above .

 

22 hours ago, Yueya said:

 

What the Shen Ming want is for people who are on this path of shen ming realisation is for each of us to cultivate ourselves so that the seed of our own unique Shen Ming will find suitable nourishment to germinate and grow within us.

 

In Zoroastrian terms , to continue from the above source material , here I am reminded of  Khvarenah;

 

" The khvarenah is the archetype of the person one can grow to if allowed to grow to the limit of her or his capacity in grace, that is, in keeping with the fravashi and thereby in keeping with Divine purpose.

 

The khvarenah is also a person's higher calling - their meaning in life , i.e. the higher calling.

 

The khvarenah is specific to a person and is different for each person

 

 

 

 

22 hours ago, Yueya said:

 

That germinated seed is known as the Golden Embryo or Golden Elixir. Once grown to maturity our Shen Ming can leave the womb of our body and exist independently in the realm where other Shen Ming live. I suspect this happens at the time of bodily death for those rare few who succeed with such profound cultivation.

 

See  note 2  above .  Going on from a 'United Fraveshi '  :

 

" A person's spiritual components, that is, the person's urvan (soul), mainyu (spirit), fravashi and khvarenah can unite and the spirits of the departed are generally referred to collectively as that person's (united) fravashi "

 

22 hours ago, Yueya said:

 

But our embryonic Shen Ming can only grow to maturity in so much as we are able to nourish it with the pure essence of the wisdom (xing) we’ve gained through a thorough engagement with life. Without this hard-won wisdom essence – a wisdom that’s been emptied of ego and desire; this profound compassion born of a lifetime’s struggle – we would have nothing to offer the realm of the Shen Ming. Working with qi alone can never give us this but it can give us a solid basis (ming) from which to proceed in our engagement with life.  
 

 

There is a teaching in the western initiation tradition  that is unlike the common understanding in the west's main religion, that is, that not 'the whole person'  survives death, only that art that is immortal and  the idea is to imprint  that aspect  with  one's life's important and relevant lessons and wisdom, otherwise these aspects of our learning may be lost at death .

 

But I detect a difference in your explanations ;  from reading, especially the above passage , it seems there is a sort of 'separation' of  us and  Shen Ming. Its not as if we join together and 'go on'   but we offer them our learnt wisdom and nourish them to maturity by our association with them in our life ;  " Once grown to maturity our Shen Ming can leave the womb of our body and exist independently in the realm where other Shen Ming live. I suspect this happens at the time of bodily death . "

 

.... if I understood right ?

 

This aspect interests me in that  it might describe  something which makes the Shen MIng  something other or more than I  cited above . I won;t get too into it , but briefly it is an evocative process where 'legions of spirits' under a leader are attached to oneself, 'bought along' in one's life , developed  and 'raised up '  / ascended   with one after death  .....  'lifted up on thy sepulchre '.

 

I had considered it was also beneficial and compassionate action, but for some reason, assumed a continuation .  What I liked about your explained concept  is this  " exist independently in the realm where other Shen Ming live. "  .  Which gives me cause to meditate on and consider  that after 'lifting up' something , of course, it needs to be released.  ... thanks for that !

 

..... even if it had become part of  'me' 

 

 

[Nungali]

20 hours ago, Apech said:

@Yueya thank you for that, it was quite beautiful, even though I'm not sure I understand it all - due to my limited grasp of some things.

 

@Bindi, @dwai, @freeform - and anyone else - I think we lack a common agreed set of terms for some of the 'things' we are dealing with here.  I have tried to stick to normal English and not go off into Buddhist tantra or Egyptian mysticism or other systems because sometimes technical language can help and sometimes it can obscure.  I am not saying this to discourage you from posting as you will  because I am enjoying reading it all and hope you will all continue but perhaps we need to accept among us as a group that there will be problems when mixing say, yoga terms with Daoist alchemy.  If we accept first that we are all speaking from our own experience and expressing something valid in our own sense then we can look more for common ground and affirmation - and move forward that way.

 

I have been thinking, in terms of emotion as the path, how Buddhism and some other systems characterise emotions as poisons or delusion or confusion etc.  It is as if they are saying we need to get rid of them - and then we will get to some pure state.  This to me is very dualistic.  It is valid to a certain extent for a person who is in regular emotional turmoil to think about purging anger and passion and so on - because they feel sick with it all.  And beyond that someone might look at their emotions and say I will transform them into something higher.  But I think 'emotions are the path' is saying something even more profound than that and something more real and human too.  What it is saying I can't at the moment access in words that make a whole lot of sense.  So I'm going to leave it there for now and wait for a more inspired moment.

 

 

 

I think all traditions have struggled with this, regardless of their opinions on its worth or not . Hence all the differing complex terms . My approach is to embrace them all and look for the common threads . . . .  without going down too deep into any one particular rabbit hole ( ie, the over complexity of a specific system . )

[Nungali]

18 hours ago, dwai said:

 I think you will find this difference in approach depending on the system. One very clear illustration is in that between tantra and Advaita Vedanta. 
 

In one approach within Advaita Vedanta, emotions are to be observed as the witness consciousness and they will lose their “power” (of both degeneration and transformation) on the personality that is seeking some specific goal/outcome of their practice. Since the personality and it’s story is just an appearance in YOU the Nondual Consciousness, nothing real remains to be done as you have total clarity as to what your real nature is. 
 

Tantra takes the approach that emotions are to be sat with, and transformed — not just for catharsis but from the realization that the emotion arises in YOU, the nondual consciousness. In this way, you are not the unaffected witness consciousness but all that is happening is within you alone, so are very much part of you. So by recognizing that, it becomes clear that emotion is not something that needs to be avoided or chased after, there is a release from its (earlier) grips. 
 

Both lead to the same outcome, but depending on the individual personality, one might be more applicable than the other. 
 

There isn’t (and I’m not suggesting that you are saying this at all) One correct way to approach this — all nondual approaches are valid in this regard. 

 

 

 

[Bindi]

@Apech, you’ve asserted multiple times that emotions are the path, and you’ve held on to this assertion in a way that makes me wonder what has informed your view, why are you asserting this as a fundamental truism? 

[Apech]

9 hours ago, Bindi said:

@Apech, you’ve asserted multiple times that emotions are the path, and you’ve held on to this assertion in a way that makes me wonder what has informed your view, why are you asserting this as a fundamental truism? 

 

Good question.  Well it was the OP of the thread so in a way I am just trying to keep on topic.  But obviously there's more to it than that.

 

My father is a scientist/mathematician and I was brought up with a strong emphasis on being rational - in fact I am fairly sure he would not even admit to emotions being a real concern.  Which used to piss me off but now I find amusing.  His hard rationality probably pushed me, when I was a teenager, to seeking a mystical/meditation path which I saw then very much as a path of seeing.  What I mean is I was convinced there was more than ordinary objective reality and wanted a find a way to open up a world behind the everyday world.  This was probably due mostly to experiences I had as a child with changes in states of consciousness.  After some time practicing and through experiences I realised that what was key was energy - mostly energy in the body of the K type - and experienced some kind of awakening.  This changed my view of things but it was quite unbalanced and lead to a number of problems I had to work through.  Quite a number of years later I realised that my inability to make progress was because I was still clinging to the path of seeing and the path of body energy (if you can call it that).  I realised after some examination that every position that people take up, even my fathers extreme rationalism, are emotionally based.  That 'seeing' and 'energy' although valid are incomplete and that the path can be best expressed as emotion.  By this I don't mean we have to be emotional - in fact this can be a big pit fall of self indulgence - I mean that we have to perceive that the 'terrain' we travel through is an emotional one.  Systems for practice as formal presentations of the way can seem to squeeze the emotion out of the path - or demote emotion to disturbances or 'poisons' for example - but this in itself is an emotional position towards emotions itself, if you see what I mean.  Without wishing to desiccate the word if we take emotion to mean a motion in life-force (if I am allowed that New Agey expression) it is something real, dynamic, present and alive, which is why tantra pictures it as female, attractive, threatening, amazing, inspiring and terrifying.

 

This is not all I could say but perhaps explains my interest in the subject.

Edited October 21, 2020 by Apech

[Michael Sternbach]

On 17/10/2020 at 11:19 PM, Apech said:

@Nungali and @Michael Sternbach particularly because you posted Egyptian symbolism before - I just wanted to reference this to do with the idea of the goal as the creation of a foetus.  Below is a downloadable pdf entitled 'The sunrise as the birth of a baby'.  It's an Egyptological paper so they see things at best in terms of cosmology - while actually its alchemical.  I would suggest read page 4 onward ...

 

http://www.franz-renggli.ch/en/artikel/The_surise_as_birth_of_a_baby.pdf

 

The sunrise or vision of the sunrise in Egyptian mysticism is about seeing the nature of things revealed - or the source or origin of things more precisely and is their version of the goal - or at least a stage toward that goal.

 

 

 

I actually didn't get that far, as I was stuck with the image of the lotus. It grows from the muddy ground (earth) through the water towards the air and Sun (fire).

 

This can be seen as a symbol for the gradual transformation of "low emotions" to "high emotions", in keeping with the gradual alchemical transformation I have spoken about above.

 

With reference to this, it also seems telling that the chakras are often symbolized by lotus flowers whose petals (hopefully) open as the result of transformational processes.

 

From this we also learn that higher frequencies of emotion are associated with light and spirit, lower frequencies with darkness and matter (read: materialism).

 

The alchemical process is to ever turn one into the other.

[C T]

I think recognising & working with emotions at the onset of the path is a good thing, but, at some point, i think its good to recognise limitations in that emotions are, by nature, reactions to stimulus, so they can be quite roller-coastery. But many artsy people thrive and create from this space, so its not all bad, but then, they also tend to pay some kind of price for the ride. The problem is they sometimes confuse artistic inspirations with spiritual awakening. One can be emotionally balanced, mature, even brilliantly so, and still be fukuppity neurotic. Conversely, one can be totally imbalanced emotionally, and be spiritually full of light. There are no hard and fast rules to fully address the quirks of spiritual evolution. 

 

#opinionated as usual

Edited October 21, 2020 by C T

[Apech]

12 minutes ago, C T said:

I think recognising & working with emotions at the onset of the path is a good thing, but, at some point, i think its good to recognise limitations in that emotions are, by nature, reactions to stimulus, so they can be quite roller-coastery. But many artsy people thrive and create from this space, so its not all bad, but then, they also tend to pay some kind of price for the ride. The problem is they sometimes confuse artistic inspirations with spiritual awakening. One can be emotionally balanced, mature, even brilliantly so, and still be fukuppity neurotic. Conversely, one can be totally imbalanced emotionally, and be spiritually full of light. There are no hard and fast rules to fully address the quirks of spiritual evolution. 

 

#opinionated as usual

 

I like it

[manitou]

On 10/20/2020 at 3:17 AM, freeform said:

Spiritual development goes one critical step deeper... it reaches out past that point of refraction to our Original Spirit.

 

 

The hole in the donut.  

[manitou]

11 hours ago, Apech said:

I mean that we have to perceive that the 'terrain' we travel through is an emotional one.

 

 

It is, at first.  The terrain must first be surveyed for blockages by merely standing aside of yourself and trying to see yourself as you really are.  But in a matter-of-fact way, (as in, 'oh, that's interesting).  To look at your own participation in arguments or events that didn't end well.  

Somebody mentioned buttons earlier.  These buttons get pushed and create a reaction.  But the buttons can be used as a tool.  When you find yourself getting angry about something, see if a childhood memory pops into your head around the same time.  It would be very helpful to be able to just 'see' the origin of the dynamic which created the button.  This can be done.  But if someone doesn't have luck that way, then following the emotion down to the source will get you there.  It might not happen all at once, it might be a longer process.  But you will be in awareness that the button is there; and once that happens, it's just a matter of time before your inner guidance system, in manifesting mode, will get rid of that puppy for you.  That's assuming that you want to.  Many people are unwilling to dive within unless their back is up against a wall.  Or if one is seeking self-realization.

[manitou]

13 hours ago, C T said:

fukuppity neurotic.

 

 

best cutely profane word ever.  I may borrow it.

 

Nice to see you CT!

[Apech]

Ok I'm hoping this discussion hasn't quite finished yet - despite the pause.

 

I'm going to slip into Ancient Egyptian thinking for a while as it feels more comfortable for me - but I think any system applies.  

 

Our 'perfected' or original being has three functions.  A generation cycle - a generator in fact which creates our energy field.  It's unified in its purpose and you might say 'fiery'.  It doesn't really care about anything except its own survival and the consumption of what is needed to survive.

 

As a kind of equal and opposite is a clear sighted observational awareness which feeds the being with pattern and insight.  Being a pure observer is a passive state for us, so we are being fed what might be called conceptual essences which give us the ideas and patterns with which we make sense of reality.  

 

We stand between these two - and what disturbs us is when they interact so that energy disturbs clarity and in turn the clarity resists or impedes the free flow of energy.  This is the emotional field.

 

Because the mind-substance is a perfect recording material the imprints of all past activity are recorded in it - this is our personal and ancestral line - our emotional inheritance - our baggage if you like which we have to deal with - it comes to us ultimately from the energy of being but via our own personal history, our parent's emotional state both at conception and during our childhood and beyond that all life through the biological record.  Not only does it contain unresolved issues and tensions - but also great wisdom.  In a sense unpacking this wisdom is the path.

 

 

 

 

[manitou]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

Ok I'm hoping this discussion hasn't quite finished yet - despite the pause.

 

I'm going to slip into Ancient Egyptian thinking for a while as it feels more comfortable for me - but I think any system applies.  

 

Our 'perfected' or original being has three functions.  A generation cycle - a generator in fact which creates our energy field.  It's unified in its purpose and you might say 'fiery'.  It doesn't really care about anything except its own survival and the consumption of what is needed to survive.

 

As a kind of equal and opposite is a clear sighted observational awareness which feeds the being with pattern and insight.  Being a pure observer is a passive state for us, so we are being fed what might be called conceptual essences which give us the ideas and patterns with which we make sense of reality.  

 

We stand between these two - and what disturbs us is when they interact so that energy disturbs clarity and in turn the clarity resists or impedes the free flow of energy.  This is the emotional field.

 

Because the mind-substance is a perfect recording material the imprints of all past activity are recorded in it - this is our personal and ancestral line - our emotional inheritance - our baggage if you like which we have to deal with - it comes to us ultimately from the energy of being but via our own personal history, our parent's emotional state both at conception and during our childhood and beyond that all life through the biological record.  Not only does it contain unresolved issues and tensions - but also great wisdom.  In a sense unpacking this wisdom is the path.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Damn, Apech!  I love this:  "It doesn't really care about anything except its own survival and the consumption of what is needed to survive."  Once again, straw dogs.  Impersonal.  Rain falling equally on everybody.  And we are its human form.

 

You said:  "As a kind of equal and opposite is a clear sighted observational awareness which feeds the being with pattern and insight.  Being a pure observer is a passive state for us, so we are being fed what might be called conceptual essences which give us the ideas and patterns with which we make sense of reality. "

 

What I see here is the same as the "is it a particle or a wave?" in quantum physics.

 

When I think of past, present, and future - in relation to ancestors and descendants - I like to remember that linear time is an illusion. I see it as a disc, not a stretched out slinky.  It's all here and now.  We are swimming with both our ancestors and our descendants.  

 

Yes, being a pure observer is a passive state - and to really see the truth contained within, it is best seen from a place of no-ego, not caring which way it appears because everything just 'is'.  The mind is quiet, with no preconceptions.

[Apech]

18 hours ago, manitou said:

.......

 

When I think of past, present, and future - in relation to ancestors and descendants - I like to remember that linear time is an illusion. I see it as a disc, not a stretched out slinky.  It's all here and now.  We are swimming with both our ancestors and our descendants.  

 

Yes, being a pure observer is a passive state - and to really see the truth contained within, it is best seen from a place of no-ego, not caring which way it appears because everything just 'is'.  The mind is quiet, with no preconceptions.

 

Time is a mind boggling thing, the more you think about it.  The Egyptians had two types - linear and cyclic - in fact they measured things more in terms of time than space.  I had a conversation with @Michael Sternbach recently where he pointed out that even when you are looking at light from a distant galaxy, and this is supposedly what was happening billions of years ago because of the light travelling through space, its actually happening now as far as your frame of reference is concerned.  Same goes for the Big Bang - which distinct from something which occurred 14.6 billion years ago - is happening now in this sense.

 

The other idea I like to think about is that if you conceive of the spiritual journey as going back to the origin, then that origin is the creative centre of you and your world.  The closer you get, the closer you are to the beginning of you.  And so the closer you are to that which made the path you are on.  So you are walking backwards in time, getting more childlike and innocent as you go - and ultimately creating your own path, then walking it out from the origin to the most 'outer' you can get and back again, symbolically East to West and West to East - in a grand continuous loop or arc - and that as they say is life

 

 

 

 

[Maddie]

I'm not really sure how I missed this thread but just the title is so relevant to me. Like a lot of younger guys when I first started this path I wanted power. I basically thought it would be cool to be a real-life Jedi. So I begin some practices and oddly begin to notice that my emotional life is crap. Not that the practices made my emotional life go to crap, but caused me to realize that it was crap and I just didn't realize the extent. So I thought ok I'll real quick take care of these emotions and then get back to developing the ability to shoot lasers out of my eyes. Now over a decade later I'm still working on the emotions, developing powers now seems low, and base, and a waste of time. Additionally dealing with a few stray emotions that I thought of like a puddle became an ocean. 

[Apech]

29 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

I'm not really sure how I missed this thread but just the title is so relevant to me. Like a lot of younger guys when I first started this path I wanted power. I basically thought it would be cool to be a real-life Jedi. So I begin some practices and oddly begin to notice that my emotional life is crap. Not that the practices made my emotional life go to crap, but caused me to realize that it was crap and I just didn't realize the extent. So I thought ok I'll real quick take care of these emotions and then get back to developing the ability to shoot lasers out of my eyes. Now over a decade later I'm still working on the emotions, developing powers now seems low, and base, and a waste of time. Additionally dealing with a few stray emotions that I thought of like a puddle became an ocean. 

 

May the force be with you.

 

[manitou]

On 11/13/2020 at 3:37 AM, Apech said:

 

 

The other idea I like to think about is that if you conceive of the spiritual journey as going back to the origin, then that origin is the creative centre of you and your world.  The closer you get, the closer you are to the beginning of you.  And so the closer you are to that which made the path you are on.  So you are walking backwards in time, getting more childlike and innocent as you go - and ultimately creating your own path, then walking it out from the origin to the most 'outer' you can get and back again, symbolically East to West and West to East - in a grand continuous loop or arc - and that as they say is life

 

 

 

 

 

It is absolutely true, IMO, that the childlike innocence does return.  My roommate tells me that I'm the 'happiest, most joyful' person he's ever met.  Maybe it's because I've finally gotten through the heartbreak of Joe dying.  But it does feel lighter and lighter all the time.  Problems are gone.  

Acceptance is the key.

 

[Maddie]

13 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

It is absolutely true, IMO, that the childlike innocence does return.  My roommate tells me that I'm the 'happiest, most joyful' person he's ever met.  Maybe it's because I've finally gotten through the heartbreak of Joe dying.  But it does feel lighter and lighter all the time.  Problems are gone.  

Acceptance is the key.

 

 

Interesting point. Another take on that is that I've noticed the longer I work on this stuff the issues seem in general to come from earlier and earlier in my life.

[Apech]

3 hours ago, dmattwads said:

 

Interesting point. Another take on that is that I've noticed the longer I work on this stuff the issues seem in general to come from earlier and earlier in my life.

 

 

This is definitely true - like the proverbial onion ... but sometimes its not that linear as you can jump around - but generally earlier and earlier.