Emotions are the path

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Apech said:

 

If you wish to see me as a guru, I don't mind.

 

Not the 'laughing Buddha' but the 'Damn Strange Buddha '.

 

Now you can start giving teachings over the internet  .... and then transform it into your own astral sex cult .

 

- you lucky cat !

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

That was a joke.

 

Exodus 33:18-23  New International Version

¹⁸ Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”

¹⁹ And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. ²⁰ But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

²¹ Then the Lord said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. ²² When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. ²³ Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”

 

 

As you may recall from Boulay, it may be that the Lord of the Jews is reptilian and hence forbids any human  from looking at him as he goes past

 

https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/serpents_dragons/boulay-index-en.htm 

 

 

Ummmm ... no, I dont 'recall' anything from  Boulay .  ( What a strange assumption !  )

 

 

 

.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Nungali

[Taoist Texts]

14 hours ago, Apech said:

 

If you wish to see me as a guru, I don't mind.

 

[Taoist Texts]

12 hours ago, Nungali said:

But I thought anything could be 'the path' , as long as it is understood in the right way ?

hmmm, no. i am certain you know of this trick where to understand  a concept you have to take it to the extreme. now instead of 'anything' substitute 'crack'. as in 'crack is whack'. see how it works out now. 

[Mark Foote]

On 3/6/2023 at 8:13 PM, Bindi said:

To me there is a twofold mundane mind process, consisting of emotional and cognitive strands, that are entangled from issues and ultimately beyond issues needs to become fully complementary and fully engaged. Not analysing or engaging cognitively as in your model leaves half the work undone in your model IMO. Beyond these two is a third process that I don’t know much about yet. 

 

 

My emotional state usually has a sort of positive uplift to it, if I've taken care of my health.  If the positive uplift goes missing, then I find I need to revisit recent experience, oftentimes to review what belongs to me and what belongs to someone else, so far as the intention in the events that have transpired.

At the same time, I realize that the sense of a positive upwelling in my being is in part a function of my posture and carriage.  It's been a life-long endeavor for me, to realize the relaxed posture and carriage inherent in my being, at least from time to time.  To the extent that I have succeeded, I feel a little more at home in my body.

My long-term memory has always been poor.  Last night and this morning I realized that maybe it's not so much that my long-term memory is poor, as it is that I didn't feel at home in my body much, growing up.  There's a kind of uneasiness present with the memories, and that makes it difficult for me to access them.

Folks seldom talk about kinesthesiology on Dao Bums, and I can understand that.  I've had very good fortune to have been able to find the studies and the cases (many of the cases being just practical kinesthesiology) that guide my current practice.  I want to say that there's a reason those renaissance figures we all admire secretly dissected corpses (or in the case of Gautama, sat in the graveyard and noted the stages of decomposition).  

I would have to say that overcoming the uneasiness I felt in my youth was my principal motivation to undertake a practice.  That I can see the uneasiness in my early memories now, I think speaks to the greater ease that I experience these days, and I owe a large part of that to the studies and the cases.  As difficult as it is to discuss the way the stretch of ligaments give rise to activity, or the way the displacement of fascia supports the spine, I think that's a part of emotions as a path too, especially in consideration of all the ways these physiological phenomena have been alluded to in the literature over millennia (like the central channel that some of us, not naming names, Bindi, refer to).

Emotions as road signs, on the path of life.  Is that the same as emotions as a path?  
 

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

overcoming the uneasiness I felt in my youth

 

Most humans are born carrying some sort of trauma.   Unfortunately Western culture rarely teaches how to love oneself - so healing ancient trauma can take many lives as the human gradually lifts its vibration and discards the substance in which the trauma (and karma) exist.

 

 

[Nungali]

On 08/03/2023 at 10:18 PM, Taoist Texts said:

hmmm, no. i am certain you know of this trick where to understand  a concept you have to take it to the extreme

 

No . 

if I took anything to its 'extreme' , I dont think I would understand it at all .

 

 

Quote

 

 

 

now instead of 'anything' substitute 'crack'. as in 'crack is whack'. see how it works out now. 

 

 

Interesting example ..... I expected to be  challenged more on things like murder, war and other atrocities .

 

However I was hoping  people would understand my 'anything' .... as related to the concept in  the discussion that generated my comment ..... ie  '  in context '  .

 

[old3bob]

well many aspects of emotions have been submitted here, my two cents is that emotions are or can be fuel for an evolving or devolving path or situation.  Aka human love and hate, both being powerful like fuel... 

[Mark Foote]

My cousin responded:

 

See a great deal of people who repeat the same emotional trip that got them into a bad place in the first place..its a comfort factor. If you stop to think about it, you might think to change what you're doing. But if you did that, you would acknowledge that you were wrong and need to change something and that would be uncomfortable and admitting you were wrong, so....

 

I had to ponder that for a couple of days.  Tonight I'm replying:

 

An online friend in Portugal posted that topic, "Emotions Are the Path", and I found it stirred many thoughts in me, even though I'm not sure emotions ARE the path. I think we come to believe in things that reinforce habitual ways that are comfortable, that bring up emotions that are pleasant. That's pretty natural.
 

Unnatural is finding happiness in stepping out of the comfort zone, but believing in some things can cause a person to take a chance and do that.
 

I think we all need to be very careful in arriving at what we choose to believe, and maybe emotions are a path in that regard, if we're honest.

[Apech]

9 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

My cousin responded:

 

See a great deal of people who repeat the same emotional trip that got them into a bad place in the first place..its a comfort factor. If you stop to think about it, you might think to change what you're doing. But if you did that, you would acknowledge that you were wrong and need to change something and that would be uncomfortable and admitting you were wrong, so....

 

I had to ponder that for a couple of days.  Tonight I'm replying:

 

An online friend in Portugal posted that topic, "Emotions Are the Path", and I found it stirred many thoughts in me, even though I'm not sure emotions ARE the path. I think we come to believe in things that reinforce habitual ways that are comfortable, that bring up emotions that are pleasant. That's pretty natural.
 

Unnatural is finding happiness in stepping out of the comfort zone, but believing in some things can cause a person to take a chance and do that.
 

I think we all need to be very careful in arriving at what we choose to believe, and maybe emotions are a path in that regard, if we're honest.

 

If we picture our lives or our minds as a landscape, then it will have hills and valleys and so on.  It is much easier to follow the valleys because the erosion of water has moulded a channel and removed any steep inclines and obstructions to flow.  But if we never struggle to get out of the valley, we would never climb to the high places to see the whole land spread out and actually be able to tell where we are in relation to where we have been or where we are going.  On earth the force that makes the water flow and creates the valley is gravity.  In our minds it is something like habitual patterns and habitual patterns are determined by emotional charge.  For instance we like the freer feeling of going down hill compared to the struggle of ascending.  That is unless we train ourselves to prefer effort, like a sportsman or mountain climber.  Going with and going against are both things we do.  But one takes much more energy than the other.  And energy is what moves things, and movement in energy is e-motion.  Do what is easy to enjoy the free flow of being alive, do what is difficult to learn.

 

The path, for us cultivators, towards self-knowing, is to negotiate the landscape of 'being' - a landscape shaped and formed by emotional charge, the stored imprints of previous actions, karmic charge. Habit and the 'out of the frying pan and into the fire' situations it generates for us is one of our main adversaries.  The ancients sometimes pictured this force as serpents and like a game of snakes and ladders, we are either climbers or slitherers, and from time to time, one or the other.  Work, play or rest emotion is the path.

 

That's how I see it.

 

 

 

 

[doc benway]

My opinion is that emotions are a part of the path, a very important part, but only a part. 

My approach is that everything is the path, how could it be otherwise?

Our emotions, beliefs, thoughts, aversions, attachments, our body, our work, our relationships... all of it. 

Our practice should touch every part of our lives in some way.

 

 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, steve said:

My opinion is that emotions are a part of the path, a very important part, but only a part. 

My approach is that everything is the path, how could it be otherwise?

Our emotions, beliefs, thoughts, aversions, attachments, our body, our work, our relationships... all of it. 

Our practice should touch every part of our lives in some way.

 

 

 

What percentage of your life is void of emotion?

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

What percentage of your life is void of emotion?

 

Excellent question to which I don’t have an answer. Given how subtle emotional content and reactivity can be, quite likely a very small percentage. 

[liminal_luke]

Perhaps the trick is to feel whatever emotion is present in a matter-of-fact way, without making a career out of emotional expression.  There are two errors -- avoidance and stewing.  If possible, I think it's best to observe emotion unemotionally.  Emotion is not preferable to lack of emotion or vice versa.  As Steve says: everything is the path.

Edited March 15, 2023 by liminal_luke

[Mark Foote]

8 hours ago, Apech said:

 

For instance we like the freer feeling of going down hill compared to the struggle of ascending.  That is unless we train ourselves to prefer effort, like a sportsman or mountain climber. 

 

As any mountain climber will confirm, it's actually tougher coming down a mountain than going up.  Maybe stair-climbing in a skyscraper or hiking the hills in San Francisco is a different thing, but for mountains, up is easier.

I think folks with some kind of internal practice are like mountain climbers, in that they come to appreciate the surrender of volitive activity in spite of the effort, and find the apparent ease of picking up volitive activity again a caution.  So, yes, we train ourselves to prefer effort, or rather we find the happiness we experience in the midst of our effort so rewarding that we are drawn to repeat the exercise, regardless of the effort.

I do see the power of belief in my life.  It's apparent that people will often sacrifice the truth in order to experience the emotions they associate with their beliefs--religious beliefs, scientific beliefs, patriotic beliefs.  That's why I think we all need to be very careful in arriving at what we choose to believe (and maybe emotions are a path in that regard).

[Nungali]

In magical / hermetic training we see the emotional body as one of the valid receptors and expressors ,  but it needs to be valid and in order , ie   'spirit' ( personal spirit ) , self , inspiration , will ,  'higher connections' , etc . relates to fire , next in the hierarchy is  water and the emotional body , then the mind and intellect as air then body and the material world as earth .  The ideal is , basically, we receive inspiration or 'idea' , we see how we feel about it , does it resonate , we might want to 'sleep on it ' ( put it through the unconscious , another realm related to water ) . Next we think on it, access its viability and work out how to put it into action or manifest it, and lastly with earth we do or create it .   For the general populace (in an unbalanced culture ), most are removed or confused by 'spirit' , have confused or disturbed emotions , so with those two levels knocked out, they assume it is the mind that should be running things  - a big mistake .   (Like most things in nature the process is  not digital but works via 'analog '  - it should not be  one system following the other but all working together ) .

 

But here is the thing ;  most of us would realize that someone with a disturbed  unbalanced mind , will have trouble 'working things out ',   but the same applies to the emotional 'mind' .   It can help people to recognize the difference in themselves between an emotional reaction and an intellectual response . The reaction is quick, often not thought out and not considering consequences .  I taught this to year 10 school kids in  special 'Know Yourself ' course ... it took a bit for them to get  it , but then they did well ( in the acting out of scenes to express the difference  ) ... basically, for a start ... the good old  " Count to 10 first " ... the emotional reaction is quick and  even a short time can allow mind to 'intrude' .

 

So emotions, I feel,  (  )   are valuable , but, like the mind, if it is unbalanced and damaged, can be a hindrance and throw the whole system out of balance .   So  although emotions may not be THE path , they are part of a balanced path .

 

But if you practice this  .... you might be tagged as 'being on the spectrum'  because you are rot emotionally reactive enough !

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

If possible, I think it's best to observe emotion unemotionally.

 

It's a bit like waking up in a dream. The emotion is happening.

I am aware of the experience, as opposed to being wrapped up in the blindness of the story and thoughts and feelings,

I look at who it's happening to, who is feeling and reacting, what is this I?

Ultimately it is unanswerable; no matter how long and deep I look, I don't find anything.

Then the practice is simply to embrace that sense of me in the warmth of openness and naked presence.

Emotion is a direct door to the Natural State.

 

Vision is mind

Mind is empty

Emptiness is clear light

Clear light is union

Union is great bliss

     ~ Dawa Gyaltsen, 8th century

[Apech]

3 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Perhaps the trick is to feel whatever emotion is present in a matter-of-fact way, without making a career out of emotional expression.  There are two errors -- avoidance and stewing.  If possible, I think it's best to observe emotion unemotionally.  Emotion is not preferable to lack of emotion or vice versa.  As Steve says: everything is the path.

 

i am not suggesting that we should indulge in emotions but just to admit they are there and functioning.  Even states like cold unemotionality ... being strictly rational and so on, actually I see these as emotional states.  Why else are they 'cold'.?  I think the resistance to this idea comes from the modern therapeutic way - which tries to make our feelings the most important and central thing.  Whereas actually it's all part of a play.  In fact, oddly, seeing everything as a kind of emotional display is very freeing.

 

 

 

 

[Apech]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

In magical / hermetic training we see the emotional body as one of the valid receptors and expressors ,  but it needs to be valid and in order , ie   'spirit' ( personal spirit ) , self , inspiration , will ,  'higher connections' , etc . relates to fire , next in the hierarchy is  water and the emotional body , then the mind and intellect as air then body and the material world as earth .  The ideal is , basically, we receive inspiration or 'idea' , we see how we feel about it , does it resonate , we might want to 'sleep on it ' ( put it through the unconscious , another realm related to water ) . Next we think on it, access its viability and work out how to put it into action or manifest it, and lastly with earth we do or create it .   For the general populace (in an unbalanced culture ), most are removed or confused by 'spirit' , have confused or disturbed emotions , so with those two levels knocked out, they assume it is the mind that should be running things  - a big mistake .   (Like most things in nature the process is  not digital but works via 'analog '  - it should not be  one system following the other but all working together ) .

 

But here is the thing ;  most of us would realize that someone with a disturbed  unbalanced mind , will have trouble 'working things out ',   but the same applies to the emotional 'mind' .   It can help people to recognize the difference in themselves between an emotional reaction and an intellectual response . The reaction is quick, often not thought out and not considering consequences .  I taught this to year 10 school kids in  special 'Know Yourself ' course ... it took a bit for them to get  it , but then they did well ( in the acting out of scenes to express the difference  ) ... basically, for a start ... the good old  " Count to 10 first " ... the emotional reaction is quick and  even a short time can allow mind to 'intrude' .

 

So emotions, I feel,  (  )   are valuable , but, like the mind, if it is unbalanced and damaged, can be a hindrance and throw the whole system out of balance .   So  although emotions may not be THE path , they are part of a balanced path .

 

But if you practice this  .... you might be tagged as 'being on the spectrum'  because you are rot emotionally reactive enough !

 

I think what becomes unbalanced is the protected self.  The emotions are like the weather. 

 

 

[C T]

Anger is an emotional reaction. Lust  & greed also arise out of delusion. So are all other emotions, positive or negative - all arise and subside within samsara.

 

In authentic tantra, thru sadhana, initiates practice the transmutation of gross emotions, uniting base desires with their transformed essence, eventually leading to non dual bliss after years of establishing a view that is unperturbed and free, where thoughts and feelings spontaneously dissolve into space within the perfected mandala of self arisen perfection. Only after mastery can one take on the practice of tummo, supported by karmamudra. So it's possible, from the 1st to the 8th Yanas, that one can use emotions as the path. Though there are other approaches available. 

 

Dzogchen is the 9th yana (level). 

At this level it's advised to let go of the previous 8. Here, emotions are no longer relevant because one no longer operates within the confines of mundane pleasure and pain inherent within sense perceptions and therefore, limited and habit-bound. 

[doc benway]

I appreciate your comments CT.

While you're probably aware of everything I write below, I think it worthwhile to share for others as well.

It may be that dzogchen is approached differently in Bön and Buddhism.

I don't know much about the Buddhist approach (or the Bön for that matter! )

 

Bön geshe programs provide instruction in sutra, tantra, and dzogchen, as well as the causal levels, somewhat concurrently. The majority of monks are being exposed to the dzogchen view and practice long before completing the generation and completion stages of tantra. They are studied in such a way as to allow the geshes to be able to hold and pass on the lineage but, from a personal perspective, they tend to focus on specific areas and specialize. Hence many are practicing dzogchen while still subject to the five poisons. Even in practice, the 9 levels are not strictly hierarchical. The majority of monks I know are actively practicing elements of sutra, tantra, and dzogchen at any given time while also engaging in the causal stages like astrology, medicine, working with the natural elements, and so on.

 

As you imply, there was a time when dzogchen teachings were kept highly secret and reserved for a small minority of practitioners that satisfied very stringent pre-requisites. In Bön history, it is said there was a time when each master shared the dzogchen teachings with only one student in a lifetime, with rare exception. That changed around the 8th century when the teachings were first written down and then much more so with China's invasion of Tibet and the destruction of many monasteries, monastics, and lay practitioners. Now it is taught freely and widely, at least in Bön, after a few key lamas had visions of the permanent loss of the teachings should they not be made more accessible.

 

Some feel that the dzogchen approach is uniquely suited to the modern world and for export to foreign lands due to its simplicity and lack of dependence on complex and unique cultural, religious, and social conventions, unlike the sutric and tantric practices. I think we're seeing a great experiment of releasing these high level teachings to a world-wide audience. Time will tell how it works out. In my little corner of the world, I already see many people from all walks of life benefiting from these precious practices and bringing them into their lives in a way that helps others, without having first perfected sutra and tantra, something they likely would not or could not hope to achieve.

 

In the dzogchen teachings I've received one thing is made very clear, the view excludes nothing and encompasses all without exception; nothing is irrelevant including emotions. Certainly there may be monks and ngagpas who have transcended the mundane such that there is little left to self-liberate on their path of dzogchen. To whatever extent, however, that thoughts and emotions do arise, they are very relevant to the practice. I've been told by some of the most accomplished masters of Bön dzogchen that thoughts and emotions continue to arise and thus are quite relevant to their practice. While it is taught that realizing the dzogchen view one realizes all stages of the path, in practice it is advised to continue to engage in whatever other practices benefit one's self and others. 

 

Just some food for thought.

[C T]

Thank you, Steve. Your experience and kindness shines clearly in your words. 

 

I'm not arguing that one should not use emotions as a means to further one's spirutual goals. 

 

Considering that Gautama alluded to emotions as veils, and repeatedly stated that dispassion is one of the fruits of practice, and personally having been exposed to karmamudra teachings, I can vehemently state that due to the unstable, incomplete,  often tricky and ephemeral nature (yin?) of emotions, the only benefit one can derive from working with them is the realization of their empty, unstable and therefore unreliable nature. Ultimately unfulfilling and imbued with its own set of obstacles. 

 

Dispassion is the fruit of cultivating equanimity. Without equanimity, bodhicitta can only be realised on a mundane, relative level. According to higher yoga tantras, knowing only relative bodhicitta is an obstacle of the path. The implications should be obvious to experienced mahayana practitioners. 

[old3bob]

unbounded joy and freedom are the emotions of "enlightenment",  and spring forth irresistibly. 

Om Tat Sat

 

[doc benway]

7 hours ago, C T said:

I can vehemently state that due to the unstable, incomplete,  often tricky and ephemeral nature (yin?) of emotions, the only benefit one can derive from working with them is the realization of their empty, unstable and therefore unreliable nature.

 

Agreed and this realization is very precious when it is authentic and non-conceptual.

Even more valuable is when we are able to notice and connect with what is actually present when they liberate. 

 

7 hours ago, C T said:

Ultimately unfulfilling and imbued with its own set of obstacles. 

 

I think this is one area where dzogchen is unique and sometimes controversial.

While emotions may be ultimately unfulfilling in a relative sense, they are nothing other than an energetic display of primordial wisdom and our ability to use them as a direct path to wisdom is priceless, consequently they are considered perfect just as they are.

Viewing them as negative tends to close us off or leads to rejection and interferes with the process of self-liberation.

This idea is central to the dzogchen view and expressed succinctly in this verse from The 21 Nails, a Bön dzogchen teaching:

 

Self-originated primordial wisdom is the base.

The five poisonous mental afflictions are the dynamic energy.

Chasing after them is the way you are deluded.

Viewing them as deficient is the error.

Leaving them as they are is the method.

Freeing them into vastness is the path.

Non-duality is the realization

 

8 hours ago, C T said:

Considering that Gautama alluded to emotions as veils, and repeatedly stated that dispassion is one of the fruits of practice,

 

I appreciate the use of "veils" as a metaphor which I see as analogous to the dynamic energy mentioned above.

For me, dispassion is not so much an absence, reduction or rejection of feeling and thinking, but rather the freedom born from not hanging onto and identifying with the object or subject of experience; a continuous leaving them as they are and freeing them into vastness leading to the realization of non-duality.

 

 

 

[doc benway]

13 minutes ago, old3bob said:

unbounded joy and freedom are the emotions of "enlightenment",  and spring forth irresistibly. 

Om Tat Sat

 

 

While I understand and agree with your message, I'd use caution referring to what "springs forth irresistibly" as 'emotion.'

By definition, emotion is "a natural instinctive state of mind deriving from one's circumstances, mood, or relationships with others."

What "springs forth irresistibly" is not derived from circumstances, mood, or relationships with others.

It is the natural state of [insert preferred noun for the source of all enlightened qualities here]. 

[old3bob]

that is one technical definition,  but there are others or different ways of description or meaning that can come across so why be a party pooper?