Emotions are the path

[Mark Foote]

8 hours ago, old3bob said:

"Perhaps" somewhere between "to be or not to be" ...

 

By Yutang Lin

"Teaching of "Non-form" indicates non-attachment to form.

Misinterpreted, it is adopted as holding to absence of form.

Abiding in no forms at all, one falls into the abyss of void.

Only in no grasping to form or non-form lies true liberation".
 

Yeah... Stirling!  Ha ha!  

I will pick up on some of the rest of your post later, as I am interested.  Love the quotes, for sure! 

You know me too well, Nungali.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

22 hours ago, steve said:

 

I suspect your question is rhetorical but I'll offer a response anyway for anyone interested.

 

One way to approach this question is the recognition that cessation is already always there - it's the stillness within movement, the silence beneath sound, the spaciousness that hosts form.

It is the foundation of what and who we are, ever-present yet too close to notice. 

There is nothing we can do or think about that will cause cessation to occur, it is non-doing that allows cessation.

Leaving everything that arises just as it is, not engaging, not suppressing, not even observing.

This is the direction we go and is referred to as non-meditation.

The process starts out very active by necessity due to our habitual patterns. 

 Observing and noticing distraction and engagement, then releasing and resting - over and over again.

The use of energetic methods can help the clearing and opening to occur.

Eventually the process requires less and less effort until the releasing occurs of itself with an inertia all its own,.

 

I'm still working on the post that I quoted from, that caused old3bob and manitou to abandon ship.

As I said, the flogging must continue:

 

Of course, the cessation of volition in activity happens all the time.  Zen master Eihei Dogen detailed the apparent contradiction in teaching a practice that’s intended to bring a person to a place that they already know intimately:

 

Fundamentally speaking, the basis of the way is perfectly pervasive; how could it be contingent on practice and verification?  The vehicle of the ancestors is naturally unrestricted; why should we expend sustained effort? Surely the whole being is far beyond defilement; who could believe in a method to polish it? Never is it apart from this very place; what is the use of a pilgrimage to practice it?
 

(Koroku Kukan zazen gi, tr Carl Bielefeldt, “Dogen’s Manuals of Zen Meditation” UC Press 1988 p 175)   

The difficulty may lie in an unconscious habit that many people adopt to overcome a particular frailty of the body.

Moshe Feldenkrais spoke about how people hold their breath for an instant when getting up out of a chair:
 

The tendency to hold one’s breath is instinctive, part of an attempt to prevent the establishment of shearing stresses or forces likely to shift the vertebrae horizontally, out of the vertical alignment of the spinal column that they constitute.
 

(“Awareness Through Movement”, Moshe Feldenkrais, p 83)

 

 

That's a recent bit that I think ties in nicely with your contention that "cessation is always already there."

I go on to offer that the Tai Chi classics emphasize awareness of the ligaments, as essential to strength.  Somewhere down the page from there, I add:
 

Feldenkrais described the origin of the automatic movement in the legs as “the old nervous system”.  While the movement may indeed be coordinated by the autonomic nervous system, I suspect the activity is initiated through the stretch of ligaments.  Feldenkrais’s exercises allow for the relaxation of the muscles of the lower body, so that the weight of the upper body can rest on particular ligaments.  When the stretch in those ligaments is sufficient, they initiate the activity of standing.

... The Tai Chi classics emphasize relaxation. For me, calm is also required with regard to the stretch of ligaments, if automatic movement is to be allowed.  The stretch prior to strain is small (6%)...

Cheng Man Ch’ing mentioned a Chinese description of seated meditation, “straighten the chest and sit precariously” (“Master Cheng’s Thirteen Chapters on T’ai-Chi Ch’uan”, Douglas Wile, p 21).

 

Blast it, Smee; where's the crew!

I go into some detail about the three levels and nine stages in the development of ch'i, according to the classics.  The final stage of the third level is "perfect clarity":
 

In my estimation, “perfect clarity” is the “purity by the pureness of mind” that Gautama associated with “the cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing” in the fourth concentration.

... “The pureness of (one’s) mind” is an experience of the choiceless placement of attention in the movement of breath, a placement that is marked by the cessation of volition in the activity of the body and a feeling of freedom.

 

"The use of energetic methods can help the clearing and opening to occur"--who said that!  I hope I can pin down a little more closely what those methods are, but I'm with Gautama (and Feldenkrais)--at least initially, some attention must be paid to the activity of the body in the movement of breath.

 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2023 by Mark Foote

[stirling]

21 hours ago, steve said:

Who is mother to what is unborn?

I think this is what stirling refers to when he says "all purpose is illusory."

 

Yes, that works wonderfully.

 

Purpose is a story we tell that has an illusory past and/or future about how things change or evolve. In reality there is just now, and those stories are just stories. Stories about the past and future ALWAYS arise and pass NOW.

 

So - the little girl plays with her doll, NOW, and imagines what it would be like to be a mother, NOW. Maybe she remembers wanting to be like her mother in the past - that is a story happening now too. 

 

To add to that: It is entirely possible to be present in the world in ONLY this moment and see that the past and the future are always stories we tell in the present. It is possible to go about life with no sense or belief in an illusory "self", and also possible to see that the world is flat and empty of things that have existence of their own as separate from everything else. As I said in a previous post, NOTHING GOES ANYWHERE. The form is emptiness, and the emptiness is form.  The world looks more or less precisely as it does now, only the "emptiness" (non-dual nature) is seen as its deeper, persistent, unchanging reality from which its separateness emerges as an illusion. 

 

There are multiple people on this board that see the world this way, and many more in the world at large. It isn't impossible to see or understand. It is possible to introduce many people to in a few minutes, with a teacher that sees and understands it.

[Mark Foote]

18 hours ago, stirling said:

 

The cessation of intentional activity comes about by the realization of the emptiness of self - Satori. That is the ONLY way it comes about. You could make a story about the method that creates that situation, but there ISN'T one that is somehow true for everyone, and definitely not one that you can predictively use for yourself. It is realized to be strangely uncomplicated once revealed. This is why Suzuki said:  

“Gaining enlightenment is an accident. Spiritual practice simply makes us accident-prone.” – Suzuki Roshi
 

 

I would say, there is an experience of activity in the absence of volition to be had, at the right time, but it's like falling asleep awake.  Falling upright, as I described the basics of free-style to someone who described me as a "dancing machine", Saturday night (take that, Nungali!).

Maybe it's a form of sleep paralysis:

 

During sleep paralysis, a person is awake and cognitive, but they cannot move their body. This occurs when a person's mind and body are out of sync at the point of falling asleep or waking up. During sleep paralysis, a person may experience audio, visual, and sensory hallucinations.

... There is no treatment for sleep paralysis, and it is not a medical emergency. However, episodes can cause significant distress.

(MedicalNewsToday)

 

The "dragon's gate", significant distress, hallucinations?  The author above didn't say that the body couldn't move, only that the person cannot move their body.
 

 

18 hours ago, stirling said:

 

He also said:
 

"There are, strictly speaking, no enlightened people, there is only enlightened activity." - Shunryu Suzuki

 

Why? Because there ARE no enlightened people. Enlightenment is seeing through the delusion of intention or control or any "self" that is in charge. Enlightenment is the end of ignorance.

 

Sleepwalking fools, wide-awake zombies.

 

18 hours ago, stirling said:

 

After meditation, do not allow the experience of resting evenly to dissipate, no matter what form of activity you engage in. Continually foster the feeling of knowing that all appearances, yourself, others, animate or in-animate, appear though they seem to be nothing - be like a child of illusion. - Jamgon Kongtrul

This is enlightened view. 

Is this bill from the dentist an illusion, then?
 

18 hours ago, stirling said:

 

All purpose is illusory for the same reason. Purpose implies the absolute reality of "self", others, things, space, and time. All of these aspects are ultimately non-dual. Having said this, the phenomenal world doesn't go away it is just seen for what it is, illusory, populated by the ornaments of emptiness.

 

"All of these aspects are ultimately non-dual. Having said this, the phenomenal world doesn't go away..."  alas, I must pay the dentist.

You and I only disagree in this:  "There are, strictly speaking, no enlightened people, there is only enlightened activity."   

Now I will allow that there is a path, if you will allow that one-pointedness of mind does not refer to the volitive placement of attention:
 

“And what… is the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations, with the accompaniments?  It is right view, right purpose, right speech, right action, right mode of livelihood, right endeavor, right mindfulness.  Whatever one-pointedness of mind is accompanied by these seven components , this… is called the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations and the accompaniments.”

(MN III 71, MN vol III p 114; similar at SN V 17; “noble” substituted for Ariyan)

 

Ok, you're right, there must be a mistake--I don't see "right emotion"!

 

18 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Extemporaneous Koan:

 

To make a fire, you will require two sticks. What kind of fire do you make when you rub two illusory sticks together?
 

[stirling]

28 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

I would say, there is an experience of activity in the absence of volition to be had, at the right time, but it's like falling asleep awake.  Falling upright, as I described the basics of free-style to someone who described me as a "dancing machine", Saturday night (take that, Nungali!).

 

My experience is different. It isn't like falling asleep, it is being intensely awake. When "self" drops away it is completely obvious that no-one has ever been in charge of the body, or anything else. "Volition" is just a fiction permanently. It isn't an experience or some temporary state, but the permanent underlying quality of reality. Enlightenment. 

 

 

Quote

Sleepwalking fools, wide-awake zombies.

 

Who, Shuryu Suzuki? Kobun Chino? Nah... just objects in consciousness, like all other objects. If there is an "I" it is everything. 

 

Quote

Is this bill from the dentist an illusion, then?

 

Sometimes there is a big refund check in the mail. Sometimes there is a bill. Neither one have any reality of their own as separate things or events. If it is time to pay the bill there will be cash in your account, and a checkbook and pen nearby. If you are sitting zazen in the forest without those things, or without even a phone or the internet, that's your clue that it isn't time for the bill to be paid. Instead, allow your thoughts to drop away and be present as the pageant of emptiness once again crosses your vision.  

 

Quote

"All of these aspects are ultimately non-dual. Having said this, the phenomenal world doesn't go away..."  alas, I must pay the dentist.

 

Does the dentist get paid... doesn't get paid... we'll see. 
 

Quote

You and I only disagree in this:  "There are, strictly speaking, no enlightened people, there is only enlightened activity." 

 

You are disagreeing with Shuryu Suzuki, and Dogen, not me.  Still, experientially, I support this statement without any reservation. 

 

Quote

Now I will allow that there is a path, if you will allow that one-pointedness of mind does not refer to the volitive placement of attention:

 

Shikantaza is one-pointedness of mind. The mind experiences moment to moment vipassa, but there is no single object other than the dharmakaya itself, full of arising and passing appearances. The arising and passing dharmakaya IS the object. The quiet, empty mind of Shikantaza is none other than enlightened mind, though most often insight is missing to see it. Self, time, and space drop out in shikantaza... anyone can observe this with some pointing. With self dropping out, volition (doership, put more broadly) drops out though we may not see it.

 

Quote

“And what… is the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations, with the accompaniments?  It is right view, right purpose, right speech, right action, right mode of livelihood, right endeavor, right mindfulness.  Whatever one-pointedness of mind is accompanied by these seven components , this… is called the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations and the accompaniments.”

(MN III 71, MN vol III p 114; similar at SN V 17; “noble” substituted for Ariyan)

 

I may be missing what you are trying to illustrate with this passage.

[Nungali]

On 4/24/2023 at 7:58 AM, steve said:

 

Who is mother to what is unborn?

I think this is what stirling refers to when he says "all purpose is illusory."

 

Mother of the Unborn ..... got a great 'ring to it though'  .... it could possibly be  a title to Binah  ?

 

Eg. her other titles ;  The Great Sea , The Gate of Life and Death - that which we come through into life and pass back out into death.

 

" It is likened to a 'palace of mirrors' that reflects the pure point of light of Chokhmah, wisdom, increasing and multiplying it in an infinite variety of ways *. In this sense, it is the 'quarry', which is carved out by the light of wisdom. It is the womb, which gives shape to the Spirit of God "  - Wiki.

 

 

aka - giving birth to the ' ten thousand things'   ( myriad forms )   TTC - 42 .

[Nungali]

18 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

So God is in the human. 

 

Is the human purposeless?  Perhaps made to use up left-overs?

 

 

 

Oh no .... I am going to bet on ;

 

perhaps made to CREATE left overs ;

 

 

 

 

 

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

My experience is different. It isn't like falling asleep, it is being intensely awake.

 

I think we've had this discussion before.

 

In the dissolution process of the bodily elements as outlined previously, consciousness progressively relies on less elements [dissolution of the elements and three subsequent stages of creative energies are described].  After this comes the Clear Light Dharmakaya experience which can be had at death, falling asleep, fainting or in advanced tantric meditations.

 

(“The Mahamudra:  Eliminating the Darkness of Ignorance”, Wang Chug Dor-je, Alexander Berzin, Beru Khyentze Rinpoche; p. 51-52; commentary by Beru Khyentze Rinpoche on a 16th century C.E. text by the head of the largest sub-school of the four major Tibetan schools of Buddhism; material in brackets by yours truly summarizes original)
 

 

Hot off the presses, thanks to all the folks here (and I am profoundly grateful for the folks here, for the reverence with which they regard these topics):

 

Feldenkrais described the origin of the automatic movement in the legs as “the old nervous system”.  While the movement may indeed be coordinated by the autonomic nervous system, I suspect the activity is initiated through the stretch of ligaments.  Feldenkrais’s exercises allow for the relaxation of the muscles of the lower body, so that the weight of the upper body can rest on particular ligaments.  I believe that when the stretch in those ligaments is sufficient, they initiate the activity of standing.

... Stretch and activity can follow from the “one-pointed” placement of attention in the movement of breath, yet the initiation of automatic activity may require a conscious relaxation of particular muscles and a conscious calm with regard to the stretch of particular ligaments. 

Gautama recommended a mindfulness that included relaxation of the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation, and a calming of “the mental factors” in inhalation and exhalation.  The recommended mindfulness also included the contemplation of a detachment from thought in inhalation or exhalation, and the contemplation of a “casting away” (of “latent conceits that I am the doer, mine is the doer”) in inhalation and exhalation.

... Many people in the Buddhist community take enlightenment to be the goal of Buddhist practice.  I would say that when a person consciously experiences automatic movement in the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation, finding a way of life that allows for such experience in the natural course of things becomes the more pressing matter.  Gautama taught such a way of living, although I don’t believe that such a way of living is unique to Buddhism.

(hopefully coming soon, in full)
 

 

Quote

"Volition" is just a fiction permanently. It isn't an experience or some temporary state, but the permanent underlying quality of reality. Enlightenment. 

 

 

…I say that determinate thought is action. When one determines, one acts by deed, word, or thought. 
 

(AN III 415, Pali Text Society Vol III p 294)

 

 

"Determinate thought", choice, volition.  Actions that follow "determinate thought" I believe constitute the "activities":

 

“And what are the activities?  These are the three activities:--those of deed, speech and mind.  These are activities.”
 

(SN II 3, PTS vol II p 4)

“…I have seen that the ceasing of the activities is gradual. When one has attained the first trance, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second trance, thought initial and sustained has ceased. When one has attained the third trance, zest has ceased. When one has attained the fourth trance, inbreathing and outbreathing have ceased… Both perception and feeling have ceased when one has attained the cessation of perception and feeling.”

(SN IV 217, PTS vol IV p 146)
 

So when you say, "It (the cessation of volition) isn't an experience or some temporary state", you and I disagree.

 

 

Quote

 

"There are, strictly speaking, no enlightened people, there is only enlightened activity." 

You are disagreeing with Shuryu Suzuki, and Dogen, not me.  Still, experientially, I support this statement without any reservation. 

 

I wasn't disagreeing with Suzuki.  I was disagreeing with the notion that seeing into the nature of things is of foremost importance. 

I believe it's settling into one's own nature that gives rise to enlightened activity, and the mental insight is just a tulka for the recollection of how to set that up.  That's important, yes, and we're all sketching tulkas here on Dao Bums!

I know Gautama spoke of emptiness, but at least in the first four Nikayas I think it was only to say, "this is empty of that", like:  the state in which "determinate thought" in "feeling and perceiving" ceases, is empty of "neither feeling and perceiving nor yet not feeling and perceiving" (the characteristic of the state before the cessation of "feeling and perceiving").
 

Quote

With self dropping out, volition (doership, put more broadly) drops out though we may not see it.

Ok, "volition drops out" with one-pointedness of mind--we agree.  I think it's natural to touch on the cessation of volition in the activity of the body in in-breathing and out-breathing consciously, in the course of daily living.  To the extent that we haven't yet discovered that "frailty of the body" that Feldenkrais sought to address, and incorporated the cessation necessary to live a natural life in spite of that frailty in the course of our daily lives, we suffer.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

My experience is different. It isn't like falling asleep, it is being intensely awake. When "self" drops away it is completely obvious that no-one has ever been in charge of the body, or anything else. "Volition" is just a fiction permanently. It isn't an experience or some temporary state, but the permanent underlying quality of reality. Enlightenment. 

 

May I play with your statement  ?  (That is 'empty politeness , I am going to anyway )  ;

 

It isn't like falling asleep, it is being intensely awake. When ( the illusion of  A )  "self" drops away it is completely obvious that no-one has ever been in charge of the body, ( hence, considering all those things we are 'in charge of' ) -  or anything else. "Volition" is just a fiction permanently ( if considered from this 'single self' perspective ) . It isn't an experience or some temporary state, but the permanent underlying quality of reality.

 

In my practice the only controlling , mental, volition producing , 'singular faculty' is the process itself . What I mean by that  (in simplified language ) is that the concept we have of  singular 'self'  is a handy  operative concept, but we are a collective, as far as self is concerned  *  .  It is the 'interactive process' that makes 'self' ... when the process breaks down or malfunctions, self can 'fracture' , in a variety of ways (including 'multiple personality disorder - see my writings on 'spirit possession'  and clinical psychiatry / 'hallucinations' ).

 

I liken it to the physical way the brain works .... no part centers consciousness , it is the interaction of the parts that creates it . Consciousness and 'self' are not singular things , they come about by process , which is rather 'immaterial ' , process is not part of the 'real' world (material / concrete  / physical world ) but part of the 'ideal' world ( feelings, concepts, principles, ideas , etc )

 

8 The Maatian view is 'the onion'  -  its  fairly common in modern psychology and therapy to get top your 'real self' , but in this 'magical view , we consist of layers and layers , the inner most layer surrounds a void .

 

Spoiler

14

 

ΚΕΦΑΛΗ ΙΔ

 

ONION-PEELINGS

The Universe is the Practical Joke of the General at the Expense of the Particular, quoth FRATER PERDURABO, and laughed.
But those disciples nearest to him wept, seeing the Universal Sorrow.
Those next to them laughed, seeing the Universal Joke.
Below these certain disciples wept.
Then certain laughed.
Others next wept.
Others next laughed.
Next others wept.
Next others laughed.
Last came those that wept because they could not see the Joke, and those that laughed lest they should be thought not to see the Joke, and thought it safe to act like FRATER PERDURABO.
But though FRATER PERDURABO laughed openly, He also at the same time wept secretly; and in Himself He neither laughed nor wept.
Nor did He mean what He said.

 

 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

 

 

Who, Shuryu Suzuki? Kobun Chino? Nah... just objects in consciousness, like all other objects. If there is an "I" it is everything. 

 

 

Sometimes there is a big refund check in the mail. Sometimes there is a bill. Neither one have any reality of their own as separate things or events. If it is time to pay the bill there will be cash in your account, and a checkbook and pen nearby. If you are sitting zazen in the forest without those things, or without even a phone or the internet, that's your clue that it isn't time for the bill to be paid. Instead, allow your thoughts to drop away and be present as the pageant of emptiness once again crosses your vision.  

 

 

Does the dentist get paid... doesn't get paid... we'll see. 
 

 

I prefer the Sufi version;

Our old friend Mullah Nasrudin of course ;

A sage was trying to convince hi of the illusory nature of all things  and how actually they have no reality and do not exist .

 

So Nasurdin punched him in the nose and asked  'What hurts ?'

 

 

 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

You are disagreeing with Shuryu Suzuki, and Dogen, not me.  Still, experientially, I support this statement without any reservation. 

 

 

Shikantaza is one-pointedness of mind. The mind experiences moment to moment vipassa, but there is no single object other than the dharmakaya itself, full of arising and passing appearances. The arising and passing dharmakaya IS the object. The quiet, empty mind of Shikantaza is none other than enlightened mind, though most often insight is missing to see it. Self, time, and space drop out in shikantaza... anyone can observe this with some pointing. With self dropping out, volition (doership, put more broadly) drops out though we may not see it.

 

 " Doership "  .  Interesting .   I remember younger years being a long distance runner cross country , when 'in the zone' it isnt really 'you' thats doing it .... the landscape goes by as if you are watching from somewhere else , and without feeling or awareness the body seems navigate by itself , striding, leaping over rocks, up on to logs .... even along the beach rocks, leaping over rock pools  .

 

  more from 'The Book of Lies' '

 

 

Spoiler

32

 

ΚΕΦΑΛΗ ΛΒ

 

THE MOUNTAINEER

Consciousness is a symptom of disease.
All that moves well moves without will.
All skillfulness, all strain, all intention is contrary to ease.
Practise a thousand times, and it becomes difficult; a thousand thousand, and it becomes easy; a thousand thousand times a thousand thousand, and it is no longer Thou that doeth it, but It that doeth itself through thee. Not until then is that which is done well done.
Thus spoke FRATER PERDURABO as he leapt from rock to rock of the moraine without ever casting his eyes upon the ground.

 

 

 

Aside :  I have a wonderful new vibrant alive young 'honey '  .... she produces magical / healthy  honey products . Early on  I suggested the above theory ... the look in her eyes !   ( that look means ; 'My GOD ! Maybe this person can understand me ? ! "     .... I know the feeling ) .... what does she come out with ? ' Consciousness is a bee hive . "   OH yeah !  .... AND  each of us in our way , manages our collective  via the internal hierarchies of the system we study .   ( Interested ? See Steiner's lectures on bee keeping ) .

 

How on earth can bees do all that amazing stuff they do ?  Via the interaction of the collective .

 

 

and if anyone wants to buy any wonderful , make you feel great , boost your love life, gain money fame and immortality honey .....

 

 

 

https://www.embodybee.org/

 

 

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

I would say, there is an experience of activity in the absence of volition to be had, at the right time, but it's like falling asleep awake.  Falling upright, as I described the basics of free-style to someone who described me as a "dancing machine", Saturday night (take that, Nungali!).

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Maybe it's a form of sleep paralysis:

 

During sleep paralysis, a person is awake and cognitive, but they cannot move their body. This occurs when a person's mind and body are out of sync at the point of falling asleep or waking up. During sleep paralysis, a person may experience audio, visual, and sensory hallucinations.

... There is no treatment for sleep paralysis, and it is not a medical emergency. However, episodes can cause significant distress.

(MedicalNewsToday)

 

The "dragon's gate", significant distress, hallucinations?  The author above didn't say that the body couldn't move, only that the person cannot move their body.

 

Awww man ! I had experience trying to help a girl that had that . problem was she would wake up at night  and be awake, check herself that she was not having sleep paralysis by getting up walking around , picking up things etc. then the thing that happened that usually  happened  ; a demonic form of her own self would come through the door  and paralyze her then start ripping parts of her body off and eat them ... and then she would wake up screaming .

 

Sleepwalking ?  One time, 2 am her father checks on her ... gone ! Searched everywhere, no. So got in car and drove, found her 2 km from home walking down the highway naked ... totally 'not there' , until we 'woke her up ' .

 

  Yikers !

 

 

 

[stirling]

8 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

After this comes the Clear Light Dharmakaya experience which can be had at death, falling asleep, fainting or in advanced tantric meditations.

 

Clear light is the nature of mind, precisely what I am alluding to. There is no need to wait for death, or advanced practices. The practice is actually very simple - allowing the contrived nature of mind to drop away. Clear light is what is left underneath.

 

Quote

 

The fundamental innate mind of clear light (Tib. འོད་གསལ་, Wyl. ‘od gsal) is considered to be the nature of mind, or the ultimate root of consciousness, and can be understood at several levels: according to the teachings of the sutra system, in the context of the tantric teachings, and in the context of Dzogchen.

 

The unique feature of the Dzogchen approach is that right from the beginning you make the experience of clear light itself manifest, almost as if it were something tangible – a direct, bare experience of clear light. ^[1]

 

In Dzogchen, on the basis of the clear light itself, the way in which the clear light abides is made vivid and certain by the aspect of rigpa or knowing. This is free from any overlay of delusion and from any corrupting effect, due to conceptual thoughts, that will inhibit the experience of clear light. ^[2]

 

 

 

Shikantaza is the same practice with slightly different terminology. 

 

The Zen and Dzogchen are predicated on starting at the top - getting a glimpse of the nature of mind/enlightenment, then stabilizing that view. The glimpse isn't that hard, some people get it in minutes.  This is at odds with the practice stack at the heart of early or "Theravada" Buddhism, a more involved journey. 

 

Quote

To see directly the absolute state, the Ground of our being, is the View; the way of stabilizing that View and making it an unbroken experience is Meditation; and integrating the View into our entire reality, and life, is what is meant by Action.

 

https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=View,_Meditation_and_Action

 

8 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

Hot off the presses, thanks to all the folks here (and I am profoundly grateful for the folks here, for the reverence with which they regard these topics):

 

Feldenkrais described the origin of the automatic movement in the legs as “the old nervous system”.  While the movement may indeed be coordinated by the autonomic nervous system, I suspect the activity is initiated through the stretch of ligaments.  Feldenkrais’s exercises allow for the relaxation of the muscles of the lower body, so that the weight of the upper body can rest on particular ligaments.  I believe that when the stretch in those ligaments is sufficient, they initiate the activity of standing.

... Stretch and activity can follow from the “one-pointed” placement of attention in the movement of breath, yet the initiation of automatic activity may require a conscious relaxation of particular muscles and a conscious calm with regard to the stretch of particular ligaments. 

Gautama recommended a mindfulness that included relaxation of the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation, and a calming of “the mental factors” in inhalation and exhalation.  The recommended mindfulness also included the contemplation of a detachment from thought in inhalation or exhalation, and the contemplation of a “casting away” (of “latent conceits that I am the doer, mine is the doer”) in inhalation and exhalation.

... Many people in the Buddhist community take enlightenment to be the goal of Buddhist practice.  I would say that when a person consciously experiences automatic movement in the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation, finding a way of life that allows for such experience in the natural course of things becomes the more pressing matter.  Gautama taught such a way of living, although I don’t believe that such a way of living is unique to Buddhism.

 

For what it is worth, this is the clearest version of your conception that I have read yet. Thank you. 

 

I am not clear though on how such a minor possible insight could be more desirable than enlightenment. Enlightenment would make all of this doing to achieve some level of not doing irrelevant, in my experience. I don't believe that the Buddha was ever pushing for anything but at least the insight of no-self. No-self IS the entry into the eventual extinguishing of suffering. How would what you suggest be a more pressing matter?

 

8 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

So when you say, "It (the cessation of volition) isn't an experience or some temporary state", you and I disagree.

 

Ah... good. OK. Does it end suffering, and if so, how?

 

8 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

I wasn't disagreeing with Suzuki.  I was disagreeing with the notion that seeing into the nature of things is of foremost importance.

 

This is the basis of the Zen tradition, the same as Dzogchen: View, Meditation, Action. See above. You can see how the Tripitaka and Zen are somewhat incompatible in a number of respects, though the eventual insight is the same. Realization of the nature of mind is stream entry, the first true step on the path to the end of suffering. Complete insight into no-self is the 4th path understanding, the end of suffering as a "self". 

 

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I believe it's settling into one's own nature that gives rise to enlightened activity, and the mental insight is just a tulka for the recollection of how to set that up.  That's important, yes, and we're all sketching tulkas here on Dao Bums!

 

The realization of the nature of mind (the nature of "Self") is enlightenment in many realizations. I know what a tulku is, but I'm honestly not sure what a tulka is. Enlighten me? 

 

Quote

I know Gautama spoke of emptiness, but at least in the first four Nikayas I think it was only to say, "this is empty of that", like:  the state in which "determinate thought" in "feeling and perceiving" ceases, is empty of "neither feeling and perceiving nor yet not feeling and perceiving" (the characteristic of the state before the cessation of "feeling and perceiving").

 

As I recall you discount it, but the Bahiya sutta is certainly one of the great statements of emptiness existing. The reason why there is "neither feeling and perceiving, nor yet not feeling and perceiving" is because there is no "self" present to apprehend it. 

 

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Ok, "volition drops out" with one-pointedness of mind--we agree.  I think it's natural to touch on the cessation of volition in the activity of the body in in-breathing and out-breathing consciously, in the course of daily living.  To the extent that we haven't yet discovered that "frailty of the body" that Feldenkrais sought to address, and incorporated the cessation necessary to live a natural life in spite of that frailty in the course of our daily lives, we suffer.

 

If I put it like this, do we agree?

 

Where there is a lack of insight into the true nature of "self" there is suffering.

[Lairg]

54 minutes ago, stirling said:

allowing the contrived nature of mind to drop away. Clear light is what is left underneath.

 

My observation is that there is an intelligence that does the contriving.

 

Don Juan referred to the mind as a foreign installation.

 

In Western traditions that is referenced as The Dweller on the Threshold.

 

In my experience it operates as the will of the personality - to defend itself against both higher and lower energies

 

 

[stirling]

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

It isn't like falling asleep, it is being intensely awake. When ( the illusion of  A )  "self" drops away it is completely obvious that no-one has ever been in charge of the body, ( hence, considering all those things we are 'in charge of' ) -  or anything else. "Volition" is just a fiction permanently ( if considered from this 'single self' perspective ) . It isn't an experience or some temporary state, but the permanent underlying quality of reality.

 

Nicely done.

 

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

In my practice the only controlling , mental, volition producing , 'singular faculty' is the process itself . What I mean by that  (in simplified language ) is that the concept we have of  singular 'self'  is a handy  operative concept, but we are a collective, as far as self is concerned  *  .  It is the 'interactive process' that makes 'self' ... when the process breaks down or malfunctions, self can 'fracture' , in a variety of ways (including 'multiple personality disorder - see my writings on 'spirit possession'  and clinical psychiatry / 'hallucinations' ).

 

I liken it to the physical way the brain works .... no part centers consciousness , it is the interaction of the parts that creates it . Consciousness and 'self' are not singular things , they come about by process , which is rather 'immaterial ' , process is not part of the 'real' world (material / concrete  / physical world ) but part of the 'ideal' world ( feelings, concepts, principles, ideas , etc )

 

8 The Maatian view is 'the onion'  -  its  fairly common in modern psychology and therapy to get top your 'real self' , but in this 'magical view , we consist of layers and layers , the inner most layer surrounds a void .

 

  Reveal hidden contents

14

 

ΚΕΦΑΛΗ ΙΔ

 

ONION-PEELINGS

The Universe is the Practical Joke of the General at the Expense of the Particular, quoth FRATER PERDURABO, and laughed.
But those disciples nearest to him wept, seeing the Universal Sorrow.
Those next to them laughed, seeing the Universal Joke.
Below these certain disciples wept.
Then certain laughed.
Others next wept.
Others next laughed.
Next others wept.
Next others laughed.
Last came those that wept because they could not see the Joke, and those that laughed lest they should be thought not to see the Joke, and thought it safe to act like FRATER PERDURABO.
But though FRATER PERDURABO laughed openly, He also at the same time wept secretly; and in Himself He neither laughed nor wept.
Nor did He mean what He said.

 

 

Also nicely said. The void, strangely, is where the "action" is. 

 

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

I prefer the Sufi version;

Our old friend Mullah Nasrudin of course ;

A sage was trying to convince hi of the illusory nature of all things  and how actually they have no reality and do not exist .

 

So Nasurdin punched him in the nose and asked  'What hurts ?'

 

The correct answer is: Everywhere.

 

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

" Doership "  .  Interesting .   I remember younger years being a long distance runner cross country , when 'in the zone' it isnt really 'you' thats doing it .... the landscape goes by as if you are watching from somewhere else , and without feeling or awareness the body seems navigate by itself , striding, leaping over rocks, up on to logs .... even along the beach rocks, leaping over rock pools  .

 

  more from 'The Book of Lies' '

 

 

  Hide contents

32

 

ΚΕΦΑΛΗ ΛΒ

 

THE MOUNTAINEER

Consciousness is a symptom of disease.
All that moves well moves without will.
All skillfulness, all strain, all intention is contrary to ease.
Practise a thousand times, and it becomes difficult; a thousand thousand, and it becomes easy; a thousand thousand times a thousand thousand, and it is no longer Thou that doeth it, but It that doeth itself through thee. Not until then is that which is done well done.
Thus spoke FRATER PERDURABO as he leapt from rock to rock of the moraine without ever casting his eyes upon the ground.

 

 

 

We have experiences of enlightenment (and by association non-doership) every day, we only lack the insight to recognize them. In Mahayana we maintain that ALL beings are already enlightened and only need to insight to see that they are. I approve of this message. 

 

 

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Aside :  I have a wonderful new vibrant alive young 'honey '  .... she produces magical / healthy  honey products . Early on  I suggested the above theory ... the look in her eyes !   ( that look means ; 'My GOD ! Maybe this person can understand me ? ! "     .... I know the feeling ) .... what does she come out with ? ' Consciousness is a bee hive . "   OH yeah !  .... AND  each of us in our way , manages our collective  via the internal hierarchies of the system we study .   ( Interested ? See Steiner's lectures on bee keeping ) .

 

How on earth can bees do all that amazing stuff they do ?  Via the interaction of the collective .

 

 

and if anyone wants to buy any wonderful , make you feel great , boost your love life, gain money fame and immortality honey .....

 

 

 

https://www.embodybee.org/

 

 

Congratulations. Indeed all phenomena are interconnected. Thich Nhat Hahn's presentation of dependent origination is a nice doc to go with this conversation:

 

https://www.lionsroar.com/the-fullness-of-emptiness/

 

I've got love, money, and immortality taken care of, but I love it all conceptually. 

 

So, are you a Thelemite magician?

 

[stirling]

26 minutes ago, Lairg said:

My observation is that there is an intelligence that does the contriving.

 

Don Juan referred to the mind as a foreign installation.

 

In Western traditions that is referenced as The Dweller on the Threshold.

 

In my experience it operates as the will of the personality - to defend itself against both higher and lower energies.

 

In relative terms there IS an intelligence that does the contriving - it is the thinking (m)ind. It also gets called the "ego" or "self". The mind IS foreign in its way, in that it is primarily a source of discursive thought before it is seen through.

 

I agree that it appears to operate as the "will", but enlightenment lays bare that both the "mind" and "will" are illusory conceptual constructions that have no intrinsic reality. 

 

[Lairg]

The personal will forces the human to get its act together - to protect the self-esteem of the personal will.   It hates to be wrong.

 

As the human approaches first stage enlightenment the personal will is brought under control and moves from defense to creativity - in the cases I have observed

 

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by Lairg

[old3bob]

if your head hurts don't worry it's an "illusion", btw its suggested to have one's feet on the ground.  

 

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by old3bob

[Mark Foote]

18 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Clear light is the nature of mind, precisely what I am alluding to. There is no need to wait for death, or advanced practices. The practice is actually very simple - allowing the contrived nature of mind to drop away. Clear light is what is left underneath.

 

"After this comes the Clear Light Dharmakaya experience which can be had at death, falling asleep, fainting or in advanced tantric meditations"--I think it's clear that Beru Khyentze Rinpoche was referring to a singular experience, not the nature of mind.  

 

Quote

 

For what it is worth, this is the clearest version of your conception that I have read yet. Thank you. 

 

I agree, and you're welcome; thank you for reading it, and for letting me know what you think.

 

Quote

 

I am not clear though on how such a minor possible insight could be more desirable than enlightenment. Enlightenment would make all of this doing to achieve some level of not doing irrelevant, in my experience. I don't believe that the Buddha was ever pushing for anything but at least the insight of no-self. No-self IS the entry into the eventual extinguishing of suffering. How would what you suggest be a more pressing matter?

 

"Such a minor possible insight"--very minor, very everyday, really.   

Yes, you're right, no-self:
 

Whatever… is material shape, past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, mean or excellent, or whatever is far or near, (a person), thinking of all this material shape as ‘This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self’, sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. Whatever is feeling… perception… the habitual tendencies… whatever is consciousness, past, future, or present (that person), thinking of all this consciousness as ‘This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self’, sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. (For one) knowing thus, seeing thus, there are no latent conceits that ‘I am the doer, mine is the doer’ in regard to this consciousness-informed body.”

(MN III 18-19, Pali Text Society Vol III p 68)

 

The old catch-22--can't arrive at perfect wisdom before abandoning latent conceits, can't abandon latent conceits without having perfect wisdom.  

 

 

Quote

 

 

Ah... good. OK. Does it end suffering, and if so, how?

 

 

 

That which we will…, and that which we intend to do and that wherewithal we are occupied:–this becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being there, there comes to be a station of consciousness. Consciousness being stationed and growing, rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and here from birth, decay, and death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow, and despair come to pass. Such is the uprising of this mass of ill.
 

Even if we do not will, or intend to do, and yet are occupied with something, this too becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness… whence birth… takes place.
 

But if we neither will, nor intend to do, nor are occupied about something, there is no becoming of an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being absent, there comes to be no station of consciousness. Consciousness not being stationed and growing, no rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and herefrom birth, decay-and-death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow and despair cease. Such is the ceasing of this entire mass of ill.
 

(SN II 65, Pali Text Society SN Vol II pg 45)


 

I would contend that the "one-pointed" mind is not stationary.  

 

 

Quote

 

The realization of the nature of mind (the nature of "Self") is enlightenment in many realizations. I know what a tulku is, but I'm honestly not sure what a tulka is. Enlighten me? 

 

I'm guessing you meant to say, "is enlightenment in many traditions".  For the sixth patriarch in China, evidently it was this line from the Diamond Sutra that opened his eyes:

 

Let the mind be present without an abode.
 

(Translation Venerable Master Hsing Yun, from “The Rabbit’s Horn: A Commentary on the Platform Sutra”, Buddha’s Light Publishing pg. 60)

My mistake, I meant tangka (thangka).  

 

Quote

 

If I put it like this, do we agree?

 

Where there is a lack of insight into the true nature of "self" there is suffering.
 

 

Dwelling on the nature of self might result in a stationing of consciousness, no?

I look to "an experience of the choiceless placement of attention in the movement of breath, a placement that is marked by the cessation of volition in the activity of the body and a feeling of freedom" (I'm quoting myself here ).  I'd say Gautama had it right when he said, "making self-surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of one-pointedness of mind", but there's an interesting bit of anatomy that comes into play, a bit that I think Feldenkrais put his finger on. 

That's the real subject of my post-to-be, I'll provide a link if I ever get it right (using a ouija board instead of a typewriter, takes a little time).  


 

Edited April 25, 2023 by Mark Foote

[manitou]

On 4/23/2023 at 12:16 PM, Mark Foote said:

Stirling wrote that "all purpose is illusory". 

 

How does a cessation of purposeful activity, of intentional activity, come about?  I get excited, to think that there's an approach to cessation, and I'm afraid I let myself get carried away.  Apologies, old3bob and manitou, for the level of detail.

Unfortunately, the floggings will continue until the morale improves... 

 

I can't help myself--I feel like I have a sense of purpose, and I love that.

Are emotions the path?  The path to good writing?  Maybe not! 

 

 

Maybe not The Path, but certainly A Path.

 

Just a few moments ago, I had a revelation into my own character.  It is a repressed emotion that has finally shown itself to me.  Through a particular situation (in this case, turning down an invitation to something where I know I would have a nice time) it suddenly occurred to me that I turn down things like that a lot.  Denying myself pleasure because I feel guilty.  This has been with me forever.  Not allowing myself to have too much fun, feeling guilty if I do.

 

I was second guessing my answer as the person drove away.  A snippet of a memory came into focus, and I knew the moment I saw the memory that there was total truth to it.  I saw a little girl putting a record of Oklahoma! on the record player one morning, as our family was preparing for vacation.  I turned it up real loud because I was so happy.  I thought my parents would love it.  Problem was, it was about 6 in the morning.

 

Dad came at me and overreacted, as always, hollering "You'll wake the neighbors up!"  My extreme happiness at that moment instantly turned into guilt because I had not thought about the neighbors at all.  

 

So what I need to do is replay the opposing dynamic (anti-guilt?)  I'll figure out some little reenactment where the dynamic turns to happiness, where the guilt surrenders to happiness. 

 

So, it seems to me that emotions (which are there because of your prior conditioning) can lead us back to ourselves, our pristine selves, whenever needed.  It is that type of self-discovery which is crucial for allowing enlightenment to occur from within.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by manitou

[manitou]

On 4/23/2023 at 9:10 PM, Lairg said:

 

So God is in the human. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It would seem so...

[Nungali]

19 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

My observation is that there is an intelligence that does the contriving.

 

Don Juan referred to the mind as a foreign installation.

 

 

How on earth did you get from that  ^

 

.....  to this  ;

 

19 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

In Western traditions that is referenced as The Dweller on the Threshold.

 

In my experience it operates as the will of the personality - to defend itself against both higher and lower energies

 

 

 

The dweller on the threshold represents the  mind as a foreign installation .  

[Lairg]

30 minutes ago, Nungali said:

The dweller on the threshold represents the  mind as a foreign installation .  

 

You have understood - seen what stands under.

 

There is a foreign intelligence that operates the personal/lower mind body.  It has its own agenda: never to be wrong.

 

Sound familiar?

 

 

[Nungali]

18 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Nicely done.

 

 

Also nicely said. The void, strangely, is where the "action" is. 

 

 

The correct answer is: Everywhere.

 

Nice  answer !

 

18 hours ago, stirling said:

 

 

We have experiences of enlightenment (and by association non-doership) every day, we only lack the insight to recognize them. In Mahayana we maintain that ALL beings are already enlightened and only need to insight to see that they are. I approve of this message. 

 

 

 

Congratulations. Indeed all phenomena are interconnected. Thich Nhat Hahn's presentation of dependent origination is a nice doc to go with this conversation:

 

https://www.lionsroar.com/the-fullness-of-emptiness/

 

I've got love, money, and immortality taken care of, but I love it all conceptually. 

 

So, are you a Thelemite magician?

 

 

Errrmmmm .   Sorta  Thelemite .  I was curious about it, followed along for a bit but rejected a lot of its interpretation . As time went on, I saw some of its essential principles in other things so I accepted them as valid .  ( I dont like to accept things when I cant see a reflection in 'nature' -  and that includes macro and micro levels , eg 'cosmology', physics, etc .  Otherwise, nearly all the time, they are some type of aberrant ' human mind trip' ) .

 

Through the last few decades ( and up to about 8 years ago ) I had the opportunity to learn about Australian Aboriginal 'shamanism' , but each time , I had 'business' in the western initiation tradition, so it was defrayed ( I probably was not ready for that anyway ) . Eventually, reaching the 'hermit' level and 'retiring' , that world reopened to me .  Surprise surprise, things 'in there' where 'similar principles.    Also, a lot of the western hermetic tradition particularly Thelema  seems sourced from an ancient form of Zoroastrianism ( I have posts on all this stuff scattered about )  ... so in a way , lets say I am a ' Neo- Zoroastrian Thelemite  .......  *   '    

 

'Magic' and its operation is a very different thing now for me  .

 

 

* My teacher would introduce me to others as a 'white cleverman * '  .    I hesitate to use the word as it might give the wrong impression That does not mean I am a white person that is an Aboriginal cleverman , NO  !  It means I am  a 'cleverman' in white esoteric traditions  .... although they have seen me 'do magic'  ... they get a bit freaked out , but teacher would laugh at it .   

Eg

 

Spoiler

I think I am sometimes an 'animist' much more so than them ... they chuckle when I talk to wild animals and even more so to 'inanimate objects ; One takes up a chainsaw to cut a pole end off . Another ' Dont bother, that bastard will not start , we tried everything. "  The other : " No , no ... its been to chainsaw shop , paid a heap of money, all good now,  Kenny started it up in the shop, it went fine ."

 <pulls the  handle >   blub blub blub ..... again and again .... adjusts the choke, the brake bar ..... blub-blub , blub-blub  ...

 

" YOU ****** ARSEHOLE OF A ******** THING , YOU LITTLE TURD .... That ******* white bastard ripped us off .... *&%!X   (and so on ) "  The other join in

Me :  " Hang on, dont talk to him like that . "  I get down on a knee pat the chainsaw   and "Awwww, poor little fellah , everyone talk bad to you . But I won't . <give it a little pat and a caress > You are nice little chainsaw aren't you ... you'll start for me ."

 

The looks I got !   Teacher is starting to smirk .

 

One  soft gentle pull .... Brooom  ruummm rummmmm .... " There you go boys . " and go to hand it over  .   They are incredulous, abusive , walking away  or gawping at me . Teacher is   shaking his head doing facepalm . " 

 

 

 

Thing is  ( I reckon )  'you got magic in your blood '  ( one's genetic or traditional roots )  ' and you get magic from where you live' .

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, manitou said:

 

 

Maybe not The Path, but certainly A Path.

 

Just a few moments ago, I had a revelation into my own character.  It is a repressed emotion that has finally shown itself to me.  Through a particular situation (in this case, turning down an invitation to something where I know I would have a nice time) it suddenly occurred to me that I turn down things like that a lot.  Denying myself pleasure because I feel guilty.  This has been with me forever.  Not allowing myself to have too much fun, feeling guilty if I do.

 

I was second guessing my answer as the person drove away.  A snippet of a memory came into focus, and I knew the moment I saw the memory that there was total truth to it.  I saw a little girl putting a record of Oklahoma! on the record player one morning, as our family was preparing for vacation.  I turned it up real loud because I was so happy.  I thought my parents would love it.  Problem was, it was about 6 in the morning.

 

Dad came at me and overreacted, as always, hollering "You'll wake the neighbors up!"  My extreme happiness at that moment instantly turned into guilt because I had not thought about the neighbors at all.  

 

So what I need to do is replay the opposing dynamic (anti-guilt?)  I'll figure out some little reenactment where the dynamic turns to happiness, where the guilt surrenders to happiness. 

 

So, it seems to me that emotions (which are there because of your prior conditioning) can lead us back to ourselves, our pristine selves, whenever needed.  It is that type of self-discovery which is crucial for allowing enlightenment to occur from within.

 

 

 

 

 

here is the other side ;    if you dont get rid of guilt and move to finding joy and happiness in life , even seek it out and abandon yourself to it ,  how will  ' The Goddess'  (or insert the term of your choosing ) , be able to experience the fullness of life through the vehicle she made so she can experience that ?  You would be denying the purpose of creation, not to .  

 

And hey .... I live out in the country .... if you ever come on holidays down here , I INSIST the first thing you do is come here .... I will have my outside speaker system set up , the amp ready to go and the solar batteries fully charged  ...... at dawn .

 

 

[Nungali]

16 minutes ago, Lairg said:

 

You have understood - seen what stands under.

 

There is a foreign intelligence that operates the personal/lower mind body.  It has its own agenda: never to be wrong.

 

Sound familiar?

 

 

 

Yes it does sound familiar .... but that does not give the statement any validity .

 

I imagine I could hurl a few insults that might seem familiar  to you ..... would that give them validity ?

 

But dont worry , I DO realize that  with hurling compliments that seem   familiar ,  then familiarity gives them validity .

[Lairg]

It may be useful to develop experiments to test hypotheses.