Locking threads, discuss it here

[welkin]

There is blame for the moderators, yet no responsibility taken for yourselves as a community. It doesn't take a genius to see that certain acts are wrong and harmful. And if you don't see that, then the level of perspective is way too low. Without the moderators, the community would sink itself into the ground, not because there is a lack of moderators, but because the community has proved that they can't hold themselves accountable for what they allow to occur within it. Through lack of voicing any opinion against others' wrong acts.

 

I haven't seen Earl Grey's posts on threads elsewhere, only my own. So i can't comment on those. Personally, i don't think he needs to get suspended based of my interactions with him. Whether he's getting banned mostly for other threads, that's out of my hands.

 

When people say that the community looks like a representation of the much bigger world, yeah i would say that's accurate. And yet why is that even an accepted observation. How can it be that community for the purpose of development and cultivation is a reflection of the supposed outside less developed world. That means there's very little difference between the two at the end of the day. It proves knowledge itself does not mean development or consciousness, or that one's own peace without caring the peace of another is enough to create a stronger maybe never before seen community. There are moments where we should care for more than just ourselves, that to create peace you sometimes need to break your own perceived idea of peace, which may not even be actual peace in the first place. But of mix of greed and something else.

 

Blaming authority as to why certain people are suspended or jailed, etc. Instead of calling out what's wrong, keeping eachother accountable in the first place is exactly what goes on everywhere else. Taught to rely on a specific authority role instead of putting the responsibility on ourselves.

 

I say bring Earl Grey back or at least cut the ban much shorter. Pardon him with the agreement of the community realizing it's condoning that behavior in the first place and the reason for the ban. Next time it happens, there should be no reason to doubt for the suspension and the community should just blame themselves. And if they don't they don't think they're condoning anything wrong, then man.. there's a lot to say about what's justified around here.

 

Why do i defend in Earl Grey coming back? Because at the end of the day i know those actions have rooted reasons that he may not be aware of. Just as i have my own. We're all to blame than just he or the moderators. The idea that each person is responsible for their own actions is false. It's funny how there is a preaching of how we're all one, yet on the basis of how we act we just say each is responsible for themselves. Yet there is so much influence created upon eachother just based on interactions, hierarchy, friendships, society, etc.

 

I also defend him because i know that  not even so deep down, he's not a bad person. He has helped me when i needed it. Whether or not he or other people have hidden agendas here is another thing. Those agendas will be met by their own consequence. But if one looks for the positive while trying to avoid being cynical, then forgiveness is possible here.

 

60 days is a long time. And just as others have stated. For some, the community is a very important part of their lives.

 

I say bring him back, and next time it happens there should no question about the consequence. As it should be realized at that point that it is only in the communities best interest.

 

 

Edited September 23, 2020 by welkin

[Apech]

First a request : please can we have more threads about Early Grey - his banning, his unbanning, his crimes and his innocence - because this is the subject in which we must consume ourselves for all time.

 

Nothing is more fascinating than going round and round the same subject endlessly seeking some kind of eternal and immutable truth.  The moderators must be infallible, like the Pope, and their every decision held up to measure against the universal and undying light of the Logos to see that it is perfect.  This is how we must spend our time, for if we don't, mountains shall crash into the sea and we shall cease to be, eventually.

 

Is not TDBs the very centre of the cosmos and does not the fiery sun revolve around it?  Let us erect the pillars of our certainty, with unshakable resolve, vault the heavens to the welkins infinite breadth and height, so that they may say, these truly are the bums of the Dao.  And no one shall doubt it.

 

 

 

 

[old3bob]

next up: a fascinating and consuming counter-point of eternal and immutable truth,  where are you Hawkeye?

 

(serious and valid concerns don't mind me i'm just being a smart ass)

Edited September 23, 2020 by old3bob

[liminal_luke]

5 hours ago, welkin said:

There is blame for the moderators, yet no responsibility taken for yourselves as a community. It doesn't take a genius to see that certain acts are wrong and harmful. And if you don't see that, then the level of perspective is way too low. Without the moderators, the community would sink itself into the ground, not because there is a lack of moderators, but because the community has proved that they can't hold themselves accountable for what they allow to occur within it. Through lack of voicing any opinion against others' wrong acts.

 

I haven't seen Earl Grey's posts on threads elsewhere, only my own. So i can't comment on those. Personally, i don't think he needs to get suspended based of my interactions with him. Whether he's getting banned mostly for other threads, that's out of my hands.

 

When people say that the community looks like a representation of the much bigger world, yeah i would say that's accurate. And yet why is that even an accepted observation. How can it be that community for the purpose of development and cultivation is a reflection of the supposed outside less developed world. That means there's very little difference between the two at the end of the day. It proves knowledge itself does not mean development or consciousness, or that one's own peace without caring the peace of another is enough to create a stronger maybe never before seen community. There are moments where we should care for more than just ourselves, that to create peace you sometimes need to break your own perceived idea of peace, which may not even be actual peace in the first place. But of mix of greed and something else.

 

Blaming authority as to why certain people are suspended or jailed, etc. Instead of calling out what's wrong, keeping eachother accountable in the first place is exactly what goes on everywhere else. Taught to rely on a specific authority role instead of putting the responsibility on ourselves.

 

I say bring Earl Grey back or at least cut the ban much shorter. Pardon him with the agreement of the community realizing it's condoning that behavior in the first place and the reason for the ban. Next time it happens, there should be no reason to doubt for the suspension and the community should just blame themselves. And if they don't they don't think they're condoning anything wrong, then man.. there's a lot to say about what's justified around here.

 

Why do i defend in Earl Grey coming back? Because at the end of the day i know those actions have rooted reasons that he may not be aware of. Just as i have my own. We're all to blame than just he or the moderators. The idea that each person is responsible for their own actions is false. It's funny how there is a preaching of how we're all one, yet on the basis of how we act we just say each is responsible for themselves. Yet there is so much influence created upon eachother just based on interactions, hierarchy, friendships, society, etc.

 

I also defend him because i know that  not even so deep down, he's not a bad person. He has helped me when i needed it. Whether or not he or other people have hidden agendas here is another thing. Those agendas will be met by their own consequence. But if one looks for the positive while trying to avoid being cynical, then forgiveness is possible here.

 

60 days is a long time. And just as others have stated. For some, the community is a very important part of their lives.

 

I say bring him back, and next time it happens there should no question about the consequence. As it should be realized at that point that it is only in the communities best interest.

 

 

 

I appreciate your post Welkin.  Personally, I don´t want to shorten Earl´s suspension but you make a lot of great points.

[ilumairen]

12 hours ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

 

The lack of any visible action in regard to welkin has also been privately expressed to me, but having been a moderator I know that not all moderator action is visible and a lot depends upon the previous history of the individual concerned.  Among other things if no one reported welkin's behavior it is possible that no action would have been taken on him.  It certainly makes the moderator's job easier if they have a specific infraction to look at rather than have to go through several pages of posts just to find examples of bad behavior to see if a person whose behavior has been reported has any mitigating provocation for their actions.

 

Maybe one of the moderators will indulge me and say if there were any reports about welkin's behavior in the thread, and if there were none the lesson is, if you want action to be taken about rudeness in a thread, report it.

 

Zhongyongdaoist

There were two reports generated in the previous thread which the member hid (owing to his misunderstanding of moderator communications, and in compliance with what he (at the time) believed was a moderator request).

 

Then, there was “spillover” from the then hidden thread when nungali brought his queries regarding the hidden thread to the second thread - which generated no reports on the member who hid the initial thread, but did generate reports on both earl grey and nungali 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2020 by ilumairen
wrote “posts” instead of “reports”

[welkin]

7 hours ago, Apech said:

First a request : please can we have more threads about Early Grey - his banning, his unbanning, his crimes and his innocence - because this is the subject in which we must consume ourselves for all time.

 

Nothing is more fascinating than going round and round the same subject endlessly seeking some kind of eternal and immutable truth.  The moderators must be infallible, like the Pope, and their every decision held up to measure against the universal and undying light of the Logos to see that it is perfect.  This is how we must spend our time, for if we don't, mountains shall crash into the sea and we shall cease to be, eventually.

 

Is not TDBs the very centre of the cosmos and does not the fiery sun revolve around it?  Let us erect the pillars of our certainty, with unshakable resolve, vault the heavens to the welkins infinite breadth and height, so that they may say, these truly are the bums of the Dao.  And no one shall doubt it.

 

 

 

 

 

No points actually made or spoken to. Only a pointless game being played in their own mind that never translates into reality. Stuck in the mind of theatre.

 

[Zhongyongdaoist]

4 hours ago, ilumairen said:

16 hours ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

 

The lack of any visible action in regard to welkin has also been privately expressed to me, but having been a moderator I know that not all moderator action is visible and a lot depends upon the previous history of the individual concerned.  Among other things if no one reported welkin's behavior it is possible that no action would have been taken on him.  It certainly makes the moderator's job easier if they have a specific infraction to look at rather than have to go through several pages of posts just to find examples of bad behavior to see if a person whose behavior has been reported has any mitigating provocation for their actions.

 

Maybe one of the moderators will indulge me and say if there were any reports about welkin's behavior in the thread, and if there were none the lesson is, if you want action to be taken about rudeness in a thread, report it.

 

Zhongyongdaoist

There were two reports generated in the previous thread which the member hid (owing to his misunderstanding of moderator communications, and in compliance with what he (at the time) believed was a moderator request).

 

Then, there was “spillover” from the then hidden thread when nungali brought his queries regarding the hidden thread to the second thread - which generated no reports on the member who hid the initial thread, but did generate reports on both earl grey and nungali 

 

 

Thank you ilumairen, I appreciate the transparency.  Also after my post when I followed this:

 

14 hours ago, ilumairen said:

 

 

You were clearly aware at this point in the discussion that there were moderator interactions with Welkin.

 

 

I realized that "visible" action of a sort had been taken as a post had apparently been hidden at moderator's request.  This goes along with what I said about not all moderator actions are visible, though someone who was familiar with the thread might have noticed that something, probably rather rude, was missing.  I know moderator's prefer to solve matters in this fashion and as long as the member is cooperative with Staff, such matters are likely to be passed over without much fuss, unless Staff finds that a repeat offender needs constant admonition and correction in which case further action may be taken.  I  have no idea what welkin's record is, so I cannot comment further on the matter.

 

Thanks to all the staff for their hard work and dedication.

 

Zhongyongdaoist

[doc benway]

9 hours ago, Apech said:

The moderators must be infallible, like the Pope, and their every decision held up to measure against the universal and undying light of the Logos to see that it is perfect. 

 

Speaking of fallibility, I’ve got to share that I regret the posts I made earlier in this thread.

 

I genuinely did not mean to equate Earl and his friends with Trump and his supporters in order to insult or degrade anyone but I see how it would seem like I was. I was simply trying to make a point about how we each have our different realities and it seemed like a powerful and obvious example. That analogy, and my comments about Earl, were clumsy and careless. I was in a bad place mentally at the time due to some personal challenges at home.

 

To be clear, I don’t disagree with the action taken. From a mod’s perspective it was necessary. I do regret making matters worse with my impulsive and inconsiderate comments. I felt it necessary to get that off my chest and I offer the board, and my fellow mods, my sincere apologies.

 

🙏🏽

[Geof Nanto]

10 hours ago, Apech said:

First a request : please can we have more threads about Early Grey - his banning, his unbanning, his crimes and his innocence - because this is the subject in which we must consume ourselves for all time.

 

Nothing is more fascinating than going round and round the same subject endlessly seeking some kind of eternal and immutable truth.  The moderators must be infallible, like the Pope, and their every decision held up to measure against the universal and undying light of the Logos to see that it is perfect.  This is how we must spend our time, for if we don't, mountains shall crash into the sea and we shall cease to be, eventually.

 

Is not TDBs the very centre of the cosmos and does not the fiery sun revolve around it?  Let us erect the pillars of our certainty, with unshakable resolve, vault the heavens to the welkins infinite breadth and height, so that they may say, these truly are the bums of the Dao.  And no one shall doubt it.

 

 

I completely disagree with this. For me, the health and psychology of this forum is a worthy subject of our attention. It's something we all can influence with our input and it helps determine the shape of this forum. For me, engaging with it and working through how it I feel about it all is a totally meaningful part of my practice.  To my mind it's far more productive to engage with this sort of discussion about our Dao Bums community than, for instance, countless words on American federal politics. From a practice perspective, that sort of discussion also its place but only in so much as people gain insight into hidden aspects of their own psyche. It can have no meaningful influence on American politics. 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Yueya said:

 

I completely disagree with this. For me, the health and psychology of this forum is a worthy subject of our attention. It's something we all can influence with our input and it helps determine the shape of this forum. For me, engaging with it and working through how it I feel about it all is a totally meaningful part of my practice.  To my mind it's far more productive to engage with this sort of discussion about our Dao Bums community than, for instance, countless words on American federal politics. From a practice perspective, that sort of discussion also its place but only in so much as people gain insight into hidden aspects of their own psyche. It can have no meaningful influence on American politics. 

 

Well I've been told already I'm on the wrong page as far as this forum is concerned but I may as well respond to your remarks.  If the DBs about practice and cultivation then why not discuss that, rather than the rights or wrongs of moderation decisions?  The shape of this forum is the membership with its 'discussions on the way' not circular arguments about the pathway of one individual or especially about the effectiveness or otherwise of moderation.  Effective moderation is almost invisible, it sits beside a stream occasionally pulling out a dubious looking fish and tends the riverbanks to avoid flooding or drought.  It is never supposed to be the subject matter.  As Lao Tsu said 'justice exists because of injustice' and so you could if you wished discuss, dispute and criticise every moderator decision till the cows come home.  But actually maybe we should just accept that they are sincere and doing their best.  People are not banned or suspended lightly - in fact you have to work quite hard to make it happen.  Moderators may say the wrong thing occasionally just as we all do.  So what?  They are volunteers and we owe them our support.  For my part I am just glad that there are a few good people like them willing to do this.  Let's all just beam positive energy at this place and move on.

 

 

[Nungali]

17 hours ago, ilumairen said:

 

 

You were clearly aware at this point in the discussion that there were moderator interactions with Welkin.

 

 

 

And ?   .... 

 

I was  actually responding to Donald up there  who suggested if we dont report things mods will not know about them .  I even said  it was valid generally, but in this specific case , mods knew .... so why report it .

 

Please try to read my comments and responses within the context  that they where given .

 

[Apech]

3 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

And ?   .... 

 

I was  actually responding to Donald up there  who suggested if we dont report things mods will not know about them .  I even said  it was valid generally, but in this specific case , mods knew .... so why report it .

 

Please try to read my comments and responses within the context  that they where given .

 

 

 

Hey I just noticed you got a quote from the Pyramid Texts in your signature!

 

God I love serpent deities - let's start a thread on them!!!!!!!!!

[liminal_luke]

Test

 

Place the following activities in order of personal preference from most to least appealing: (a) spiritual practice, (b) conversation about spiritual practice, (c) conversation about who should or shouldn´t be kicked out of spiritual forums

 

Spoiler

c,b,a 

 

[Apech]

2 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Test

 

Place the following activities in order of personal preference from most to least appealing: (a) spiritual practice, (b) conversation about spiritual practice, (c) conversation about who should or shouldn´t be kicked out of spiritual forums

 

  Reveal hidden contents

c,b,a 

 

a,a,b

[Nungali]

10 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

Hey I just noticed you got a quote    misquote from the Pyramid Texts in your signature!

 

God I love serpent deities - let's start a thread on them!!!!!!!!!

 

Well, that would be good !     While this kerfuffle was going on yesterday and the day before , I did make a series of posts on other subjects  .... as well as posts on other forums  .... work on my new computer , went to a home brew party etc etc ... I still have some spare arms ;

 

 

Edited September 23, 2020 by Nungali

[Geof Nanto]

16 minutes ago, Apech said:

Let's all just beam positive energy at this place and move on.

 

"Filling the conscious mind with ideal conceptions is a characteristic of Western theosophy, but not the confrontation with the shadow and the world of darkness. One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. The later procedure, however, is disagreeable and therefore not popular." ~ C G Jung

 

(I'd amend the first line to read: Filling the conscious mind with ideal conceptions is a characteristic of much of contemporary spirituality.)

 

I fully agree agree with your comments about the quality of moderation on this forum but for me the way I engage with discussions such as this one are definitely part of my practice. 

[Geof Nanto]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

Effective moderation is almost invisible, it sits beside a stream occasionally pulling out a dubious looking fish and tends the riverbanks to avoid flooding or drought.  It is never supposed to be the subject matter.  As Lao Tsu said 'justice exists because of injustice' and so you could if you wished discuss, dispute and criticise every moderator decision till the cows come home.  But actually maybe we should just accept that they are sincere and doing their best.  People are not banned or suspended lightly - in fact you have to work quite hard to make it happen.  Moderators may say the wrong thing occasionally just as we all do.  So what?  They are volunteers and we owe them our support.  For my part I am just glad that there are a few good people like them willing to do this.  

 

I agree with all this and have previously mentioned much of it. And yes, there’s been too much focus on the moderators.  I suspect that's because they're a new team, operating under new forum guidelines, and still working out what that means for the forum and for themselves. One of my concerns that I've previously expressed less explicitly  is that they will stress themselves out by being too self-critical and want to resign from staff. I don't want that to happen.  But I also like it that they show this degree of introspection. 

 

Hopefully, as they feel their way into their roles and we members adjust to the new guidelines, the focus on the moderators will naturally fall away and they will become more an invisible stabilizing presence as per the ideals of classical Daoism you mention.  

 

 

Edited September 24, 2020 by Yueya

[moment]

On 9/21/2020 at 7:18 PM, liminal_luke said:

@moment

 

Here´s a brief excerpt from an Earl Grey post in the Mona Lisa thread I find problematic.

 

If your ego matched your skill, you'd be quiet. 

 

If your actions matched your words, you'd be quiet. 

 

If you knew what's good for you, you'd be quiet. 

 

Can you imagine yourself writing these words?  Does the tone feel respectful or supportive or constructive in any way?  If a member habitually took such a stance vis a vis other members and you were a mod, would you let it go?

 

 

 

Yet; very taoistic! Let us not stretch here, because we have a distaste for the confrontational,  there must be a balance.

[moment]

On 9/21/2020 at 5:50 PM, EmeraldHead said:

Earl Grey has a habit of putting people or things he doesn't like OFF/DOWN! He would throw a lot of people out of this forum and impose some serious rules if he could. He seems to be a stable person by mundane standards but really he seems like Aladeen the dictator in playing games with strangers.

 

Some of the worst sujective extrapolation I have ever seen!  You must have an agenda, please explain it to us!

[moment]

20 hours ago, Apech said:

First a request : please can we have more threads about Early Grey - his banning, his unbanning, his crimes and his innocence - because this is the subject in which we must consume ourselves for all time.

 

Nothing is more fascinating than going round and round the same subject endlessly seeking some kind of eternal and immutable truth.  The moderators must be infallible, like the Pope, and their every decision held up to measure against the universal and undying light of the Logos to see that it is perfect.  This is how we must spend our time, for if we don't, mountains shall crash into the sea and we shall cease to be, eventually.

 

Is not TDBs the very centre of the cosmos and does not the fiery sun revolve around it?  Let us erect the pillars of our certainty, with unshakable resolve, vault the heavens to the welkins infinite breadth and height, so that they may say, these truly are the bums of the Dao.  And no one shall doubt it.

 

 

 

 

 

You are vey clever and funny.  I enjoy you even though you have become so predictable.  If a moderator shot someone on fifth avenue,  (New York City)  would you say anything negative about it?

Edited September 24, 2020 by moment

[moment]

15 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I appreciate your post Welkin.  Personally, I don´t want to shorten Earl´s suspension but you make a lot of great points.

 

How far out of your comfort zone have you truly gotten, Lim?

[moment]

21 hours ago, welkin said:

There is blame for the moderators, yet no responsibility taken for yourselves as a community. It doesn't take a genius to see that certain acts are wrong and harmful. And if you don't see that, then the level of perspective is way too low. Without the moderators, the community would sink itself into the ground, not because there is a lack of moderators, but because the community has proved that they can't hold themselves accountable for what they allow to occur within it. Through lack of voicing any opinion against others' wrong acts.

 

I haven't seen Earl Grey's posts on threads elsewhere, only my own. So i can't comment on those. Personally, i don't think he needs to get suspended based of my interactions with him. Whether he's getting banned mostly for other threads, that's out of my hands.

 

When people say that the community looks like a representation of the much bigger world, yeah i would say that's accurate. And yet why is that even an accepted observation. How can it be that community for the purpose of development and cultivation is a reflection of the supposed outside less developed world. That means there's very little difference between the two at the end of the day. It proves knowledge itself does not mean development or consciousness, or that one's own peace without caring the peace of another is enough to create a stronger maybe never before seen community. There are moments where we should care for more than just ourselves, that to create peace you sometimes need to break your own perceived idea of peace, which may not even be actual peace in the first place. But of mix of greed and something else.

 

Blaming authority as to why certain people are suspended or jailed, etc. Instead of calling out what's wrong, keeping eachother accountable in the first place is exactly what goes on everywhere else. Taught to rely on a specific authority role instead of putting the responsibility on ourselves.

 

I say bring Earl Grey back or at least cut the ban much shorter. Pardon him with the agreement of the community realizing it's condoning that behavior in the first place and the reason for the ban. Next time it happens, there should be no reason to doubt for the suspension and the community should just blame themselves. And if they don't they don't think they're condoning anything wrong, then man.. there's a lot to say about what's justified around here.

 

Why do i defend in Earl Grey coming back? Because at the end of the day i know those actions have rooted reasons that he may not be aware of. Just as i have my own. We're all to blame than just he or the moderators. The idea that each person is responsible for their own actions is false. It's funny how there is a preaching of how we're all one, yet on the basis of how we act we just say each is responsible for themselves. Yet there is so much influence created upon eachother just based on interactions, hierarchy, friendships, society, etc.

 

I also defend him because i know that  not even so deep down, he's not a bad person. He has helped me when i needed it. Whether or not he or other people have hidden agendas here is another thing. Those agendas will be met by their own consequence. But if one looks for the positive while trying to avoid being cynical, then forgiveness is possible here.

 

60 days is a long time. And just as others have stated. For some, the community is a very important part of their lives.

 

I say bring him back, and next time it happens there should no question about the consequence. As it should be realized at that point that it is only in the communities best interest.

 

 

 

Welkin, you post here like Earl is your friend, or that you actually like him, please explain how and when that happened or at least explain your view of fairness.  Mind you now,  this is just a friendly examination of current events and where you actually are at?

[moment]

11 hours ago, welkin said:

 

No points actually made or spoken to. Only a pointless game being played in their own mind that never translates into reality. Stuck in the mind of theatre.

 

 

Oh yes, I am so interested in this theater of which you speak.  Please, help me out with your view of what reality is, and also theatre of the mind.  You talk with such assuredness, that I just can't wait!

[Cleansox]

28 minutes ago, moment said:

 

Yet; very taoistic! Let us not stretch here, because we have a distaste for the confrontational,  there must be a balance.

It might be very taoistic, yet when it comes from a member who himself does not follow this, it is easier to see it as a way of saying "shut up". Especially in a context where that crossed my mind as well, but I choose not to be as explicit about it. It's a forum after all, people must be allowed to have ideas even though I disagree with them. 

 

I'm not saying anything about @Earl Grey's intention behind this since I do not read minds, but if a member have a history of being asked to be more diplomatic in his/her posts, that change is expected to be manifested in the posts. 

 

[Cleansox]

5 minutes ago, moment said:

Please, help me out with your view of what reality is

Noooooooo 🙈🙉🙊