Inequality

[Mig]

I was wondering how inequality is viewed by Daoists practitioners or Masters or those who have a good knowledge of Daoists scriptures and classics.  It seems that in later years inequality has been disproportionately bigger in the past years but nothing new in humankind history. How can you observe inequality and just let the nature takes its ways and then continue in life as nothing has happened or just accept it while you are living the good life both spiritual and economical. It makes me wonder about Daoists who are secluded or hermits not having responsibilities as every human living in society. Any ideas?

[RiverSnake]

I remember a story of Lao-Tzu advising the Emperor and how the Emperor tried to enter retreat and practice cultivation, but only meet with failure and frustration....then the Sage explained to him, what he was doing was against his "nature". So he goes back to court, finishes his duties as Emperor and then in retirement began his cultivation journey....or something to that effect. Daoist scholars may have a name for the story. 

 

In short.....each person has there nature....if you try to grind against it and pursue areas that are not resonant....your gonna find yourself in unwelcoming spaces. Root consciousness is a blank slate.....but we all manifest differently. There is nothing Equal about manifestation. 

[Mig]

It seems that if we look at history, especially in China, all you can see is famine, misery, wars, revolts and much more inequality. The religions of China have been an essential element in all the conflicts you read in Chinese history and the more I read the more I see how much the regular people, the poor people have been victims of a flagrant inequality. What have Daoists done to make changes or where in the Daoists scriptures mention about how to deal with inequality in society or in their community?

[JohnC]

17 minutes ago, Mig said:

It seems that if we look at history, especially in China, all you can see is famine, misery, wars, revolts and much more inequality. The religions of China have been an essential element in all the conflicts you read in Chinese history and the more I read the more I see how much the regular people, the poor people have been victims of a flagrant inequality.

 

You may find more discussion pertaining to this in a political forum, especially if you want to address those things with political activism. The political forum would also be the place where you look to discuss systemic inequality or the like.

 

24 minutes ago, Mig said:

What have Daoists done to make changes or where in the Daoists scriptures mention about how to deal with inequality in society or in their community?

This isn't the focus of Daoism.

 

Upon finding realizations they may comment or speak to that, but their focus is less societal and more personal in finding their true nature, and developing and following that.

 

If you are looking for discussion on cultivation and personal development via the spiritual path, you are in the right place.

[Wu Ming Jen]

There is no inequality until balance moves to extremes favoring one thing over another. If we are still living in this or that then extremes and inequality will be as it is.

 

Cut the root and be free. Give it energy and it will grow. Blame the external and one can never be whole.

 

Who's life is this? is it not your own?  Do we identify ourselves with social injustice.

 

If we wish to change the world it can not be done with the acquired spirit that lives without knowing all things are one light.

[welkin]

On 10/10/2020 at 11:49 AM, Wu Ming Jen said:

There is no inequality until balance moves to extremes favoring one thing over another. If we are still living in this or that then extremes and inequality will be as it is.

 

Cut the root and be free. Give it energy and it will grow. Blame the external and one can never be whole.

 

Who's life is this? is it not your own?  Do we identify ourselves with social injustice.

 

If we wish to change the world it can not be done with the acquired spirit that lives without knowing all things are one light.

 

Can you describe in detail how the world would be changed if people  acquire spirits knowing all things are one light?

 

In your idea of one light and many others, it seems to negate the idea of inequality or oppression. Many speak about this, and i'm genuinely interested in the logic of how it makes sense.

 

In other words what are the essential ideas or  factors of 'one light' that explains why there isn't inequality?
 

[thelerner]

On 9/23/2020 at 12:39 PM, Mig said:

I was wondering how inequality is viewed by Daoists practitioners or Masters or those who have a good knowledge of Daoists scriptures and classics.  It seems that in later years inequality has been disproportionately bigger in the past years but nothing new in humankind history. How can you observe inequality and just let the nature takes its ways and then continue in life as nothing has happened or just accept it while you are living the good life both spiritual and economical. It makes me wonder about Daoists who are secluded or hermits not having responsibilities as every human living in society. Any ideas?

hard one. Here's my take.  There is wisdom in knowing the limits of your power.  Being a sincere Daoist does not confer super powers.  Sometimes the best you can do is, be an example, live simply according to the way.

 

I'm also reminded of the 70's Kung Fu TV episode, that had this as the theme.  An ex-monk cursed the Shaolin order for its lack of compassion and involvement, yet was always returning to it, wounded.  Surviving but having led people to there deaths.  The master gives a speech to Kwai Chaing about why they have this position.  I forget what it is and can't find it on the net.

 

But the example is, the angry exmonk keeps getting people killed needleesly.  If more acted like the monks, living with kindness, thrift and simply the problem would be solved.  <ie there activism, there statement, is their lives and their community.  Example is their most powerful statement>

 

 

As an American, upper middle class, I face this quandary.  I'm no paragon, saint or rebel.  I have a list charities and give regularly.  Hope in some way I leave the world a little better for being here, though that might be a coin flip. 

[Paradoxal]

I find that the more progress I make spiritually, the less I care about inequality, injustices, or political issues. I used to be extremely militant about wanting equality, a fair system, and good leadership; I was probably *too* extreme back then, actually. However, as my awareness of the world outside the physical grows, so too does my awareness of circumstance. I find it hard to condemn those that do "evil" deeds, and even harder to hate such individuals. Afterall, if I had taken a different path, I could have easily ended up being worse than they. 

 

It truly is an amusing paradox that as one gains more true power, one has less desire to use that power. 

 

4 hours ago, welkin said:

Can you describe in detail how the world would be changed if people  acquire spirits knowing all things are one light?

 

In your idea of one light and many others, it seems to negate the idea of inequality or oppression. Many speak about this, and i'm genuinely interested in the logic of how it makes sense.

 

In other words what are the essential ideas or  factors of 'one light' that explains why there isn't inequality?

 

From what I understand of what @Wu Ming Jen is referring to, it's not something that functions on logic, nor does it function on emotion. What is meant by "one light", is mostly a state of being. It exists outside of human perspective, which is why those that enter it no longer perceive most things as inequalities. Words will not do this state justice, no matter how many are used. Humans and animals will die, no matter who does what. If seen from these animals' perspectives, it could indeed been seen as "unfair" to die in the way that they do, but from outside that perspective, where is the inequality? 

[welkin]

1 hour ago, Paradoxal said:

From what I understand of what @Wu Ming Jen is referring to, it's not something that functions on logic, nor does it function on emotion. What is meant by "one light", is mostly a state of being. It exists outside of human perspective, which is why those that enter it no longer perceive most things as inequalities. Words will not do this state justice, no matter how many are used. Humans and animals will die, no matter who does what. If seen from these animals' perspectives, it could indeed been seen as "unfair" to die in the way that they do, but from outside that perspective, where is the inequality? 

 

I would have a tough time explaining those ideas in regards to inequality and unfairness being justified by one light to a 7 year old. Though i wouldn't have a tough time explaining death.

 

The idea of death or animal ways of dying to further the point of one light and inequality is bit of a stretch. We'd have to open a can of worms questioning if we're just animals. Then talk about we all just die anyways is justifying anyhting that happens in this life based on an end experience which is death. Therefore putting the highest emphasis on the death itself rather than the experience of life.

 

idk...

 

[Paradoxal]

1 hour ago, welkin said:

I would have a tough time explaining those ideas in regards to inequality and unfairness being justified by one light to a 7 year old. Though i wouldn't have a tough time explaining death.

Children have a hard time understanding many adult concepts because they are not mentally developed enough yet. What we're referring to as "one light", is really simply a state. I've not heard it by that name before, but it sounds like the state I know of. You can think of that state as the spiritual equivalent to "growing up", much like when we grow from children to adults, we suddenly gain the ability to understand and learn more things. For better or worse, not everyone reaches this state of spiritual maturity during their lifetime; I have met elderly men who have the spiritual maturity of a twelve-year-old, and I have met people in their twenties and thirties who have already grown up spiritually. It truly depends on one's experiences and talents. 

[welkin]

19 minutes ago, Paradoxal said:

Children have a hard time understanding many adult concepts because they are not mentally developed enough yet. What we're referring to as "one light", is really simply a state. I've not heard it by that name before, but it sounds like the state I know of. You can think of that state as the spiritual equivalent to "growing up", much like when we grow from children to adults, we suddenly gain the ability to understand and learn more things. For better or worse, not everyone reaches this state of spiritual maturity during their lifetime; I have met elderly men who have the spiritual maturity of a twelve-year-old, and I have met people in their twenties and thirties who have already grown up spiritually. It truly depends on one's experiences and talents. 

 

I don't think inequality is an adult concept though. Some argue that children have a higher ability to see things just as they are without influence. Inequality is pretty obvious and simple i would say, because a kid can identify it even if it isn't understood why it's happening. how would you ever know that the 'spiritual' you speak of isn't influenced to be what it is perceived to be and therefore the ideas that come with it?

Edited October 12, 2020 by welkin

[Paradoxal]

31 minutes ago, welkin said:

I don't think inequality is an adult concept though. Some argue that children have a higher ability to see things just as they are without influence.

Children find many things unfair that adults do not see as such, and if looked at rationally, are indeed fair. 

 

31 minutes ago, welkin said:

Inequality is pretty obvious and simple i would say, because a kid can identify it even if it isn't understood why it's happening.

 

I have found children who can accurately identify inequalities to be rare, but indeed they do exist. These children are often more mature than their peers mentally. That said, there are plenty who think it unfair that they do not have the same toy that another child has, and attempt to take that toy by force.

 

34 minutes ago, welkin said:

how would you ever know that the 'spiritual' you speak of isn't influenced to be what it is perceived to be and therefore the ideas that come with it?

 

All things are connected. I still question my sanity, given my involvement with magic and cultivation, but every time I attempt to test whether my theories or ideas are true or not, it is always proven to be true. I would say that such testing is the only logical way to confirm the unseen, but logic only serves as training wheels, and never the actual skill or mindset. Most people attempt to judge things with logic and emotion, both you and I included. Unfortunately, not everything can accurately be judged by those metrics. In fact, the very idea of "judgement" or "truth" is a concept that only works when we're rooted in the physical. The folks who are fully aware and awake spiritually (such as highly advanced practitioners from most spiritual practices, or folks with much older souls, to name a few examples) are those that do not think from the physical, and thus generally will not see most things as unfair. Those that they do see as truly unfair are seen as natural, and something that is not a problem as it is natural. As our debate is getting slightly off-topic, I would like to remind you of the classic phrase: "look not at the finger, but at the moon it is pointing to." 

 

I do hope that I've helped shed some light on the concept, no pun intended!

 

[welkin]

1 hour ago, Paradoxal said:

Children find many things unfair that adults do not see as such, and if looked at rationally, are indeed fair. 

 

 

I have found children who can accurately identify inequalities to be rare, but indeed they do exist. These children are often more mature than their peers mentally. That said, there are plenty who think it unfair that they do not have the same toy that another child has, and attempt to take that toy by force.

 

 

All things are connected. I still question my sanity, given my involvement with magic and cultivation, but every time I attempt to test whether my theories or ideas are true or not, it is always proven to be true. I would say that such testing is the only logical way to confirm the unseen, but logic only serves as training wheels, and never the actual skill or mindset. Most people attempt to judge things with logic and emotion, both you and I included. Unfortunately, not everything can accurately be judged by those metrics. In fact, the very idea of "judgement" or "truth" is a concept that only works when we're rooted in the physical. The folks who are fully aware and awake spiritually (such as highly advanced practitioners from most spiritual practices, or folks with much older souls, to name a few examples) are those that do not think from the physical, and thus generally will not see most things as unfair. Those that they do see as truly unfair are seen as natural, and something that is not a problem as it is natural. As our debate is getting slightly off-topic, I would like to remind you of the classic phrase: "look not at the finger, but at the moon it is pointing to." 

 

I do hope that I've helped shed some light on the concept, no pun intended!

 

 

I feel like you're rationalizing a lot through ideas that don't necessarily support the topic of argument. We're speaking about inequality right? I would say not having someone the same toy as someone else has to do more with natural egotistical envy than inequality, which is something that many kids wouldn't feel just as much as do. An example of inequality would be more like not being picked on a team based on the color of your skin or how you look. Which is something that every kid would innately feel if experienced. Just making sure we're on the same page.

 

As you stated with the idea of 'one light', it's not something you need to rationalize. Is inequality not obvious? It stirs up negative emotions and thoughts without question. As i stated previously, the kid doesn't need to explain it to someone else or to themselves to know or identify what it is. The only thing that makes them think it's okay is the acceptance by society and more specifically the adults.

 

I don't think think any light has been shed. What you speak of is more of a belief system based on concepts and things you hear.

 

Why not give it a shot and explain how the idea of 'one light' consciousness creates the possibility that inequality doesn't exist? Even if it is impossible to explain with logic, mind, or by the physical.

 

 

 

[Paradoxal]

31 minutes ago, welkin said:

What you speak of is more of a belief system based on concepts and things you hear.

Then you are simply not ready to understand what I am conveying. That is okay, as everyone has to progress gradually, but you won't find your answer until you are ready to understand your answer. I hope that someone gains at least some understanding from my posts, whether it be you, me, or someone else. 

[welkin]

20 minutes ago, Paradoxal said:

Then you are simply not ready to understand what I am conveying. That is okay, as everyone has to progress gradually, but you won't find your answer until you are ready to understand your answer. I hope that someone gains at least some understanding from my posts, whether it be you, me, or someone else. 

 

How do you know I don't understand you or that i haven't believed and reached the same state that you mentioned only to arrive at further questions later? I use the word believe because at the end of the day that's what it is. Your assumption is that you've arrived at the conclusion to which needs no more questioning.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2020 by welkin

[freeform]

What does inequality mean in this context?

[liminal_luke]

I know I´m at my best when I´m more disciplined about spiritual practice.  To worry about societal issues, like inequality, before working on oneself is to get things backwards: it doesn´t work.  When we work on ourselves first, right action emerges spontaneously.

[Mig]

I am surprised about the responses as it seems that nobody sees inequality in today's societies but everybody knows it and they are quite aware, just don't want to talk about it, not to confront the issue that in many societies, inequality is a real issue whether is a third world country or an industrialized country. Let us take an example of large cities, cosmopolitan city in the world, i.e. Paris, Los Angeles, New York and a poor country as Bangladesh, Tegucigalpa or Manila. Don't you think people see inequality where corruption reigns and there are those who cannot make it because of different reasons, some reasons are out of their control, some other reasons they are responsible of their actions. So what do Daoists say about this situation? Do they do something to make changes or just keep doing their thing and play ostrich, head in the ground and everything is okay? Which Daoist text can help me to understand what are my options based on their guidance as they guide in other things as being like the water, be content, be compassionate, etc. Where?

[Mig]

On 10/12/2020 at 1:25 PM, liminal_luke said:

I know I´m at my best when I´m more disciplined about spiritual practice.  To worry about societal issues, like inequality, before working on oneself is to get things backwards: it doesn´t work.  When we work on ourselves first, right action emerges spontaneously.

And what do you do after? Understood to work on yourself first but again, don't we try to do the best we can though we live our lives comfortably? If you have experienced to live in the streets, you know the world is different when you are privileged and it is not an experience to enjoy. What is the right action?

[welkin]

[Mig]

54 minutes ago, welkin said:

 

precisely the way I feel about it so I can understand what Daoists or Daoists schools or Daoists religions say about this. Every time I have mentioned this type of questions, it seems that nobody wants to answer. Very true in the past, there were Daoists who were involved in helping society for a better society (I guess) but never mentioned their accomplishments. Also, I cannot find a Daoist text or canon that say at least something about inequalities in society, where there are more poor than those who have something or more than others.

[liminal_luke]

On 23/9/2020 at 10:39 AM, Mig said:

I was wondering how inequality is viewed by Daoists practitioners or Masters or those who have a good knowledge of Daoists scriptures and classics.  

 

1 hour ago, Mig said:

And what do you do after? Understood to work on yourself first but again, don't we try to do the best we can though we live our lives comfortably? If you have experienced to live in the streets, you know the world is different when you are privileged and it is not an experience to enjoy. What is the right action?

 

I´m no expert on Daoist writings so it´s possible that there´s some established view about societal inequality that I´m unaware of.  Given that you haven´t got an answer that satisfies you yet though Mig, I kinda doubt it.

 

Inequality is an important issue and I´m sure various Daoists have various opinions about it.  Which is not to say that Daoism as a whole sees inequality in a particular light.  It´s as if you´ve wandered into a hardware store and are trying to buy an apple pie.  Apple pies are great and I buy one every chance I get, but they don´t sell them at the hardware store.  

Edited October 14, 2020 by liminal_luke

[freeform]

2 minutes ago, Mig said:

inequalities in society

Where do you see equality? In what natural system have you seen equality?

 

A plant sends out hundreds of seeds... some of the seeds land on deep, fertile soil, with good sun and humidity... some land in a pond... some land on concrete... some land on barren sandy soil... some land in the shadow of a mature plant... the ones that do grow to maturity invariably cast a shadow that will stunt the growth of other seeds.

 

There is no such thing as equality in nature.

 

We think that concepts in our minds should make perfect sense in the real world - but our concepts are based on a very limited perspective, they’re biased by everything from our emotionally reactive subconscious preferences to our upbringing, our language, our parents and their beliefs etc...

 

Reality is always far more complex than any ideology.

 

Political movements that have attempted to create equality have proven to be some of the most brutal. Yet the ideology that started them sounded so good.

 

If you truly wish to understand Daoism, or any other ancient tradition that has stood the test of time, then you need to approach it with humility. If you come to it with preconceived notions, then all you’ll see is a distorted reflection of yourself.

[Damla]

You mean it is like when you say you believe in jesus but dont feel saved?  I understand and agree , it should be the case you dont see any inequality if you are dao. That means understanding every bit of info you look at this level of our reality and society and seeing it perfect and just. I presume.

[Mig]

22 hours ago, freeform said:

Where do you see equality? In what natural system have you seen equality?

 

A plant sends out hundreds of seeds... some of the seeds land on deep, fertile soil, with good sun and humidity... some land in a pond... some land on concrete... some land on barren sandy soil... some land in the shadow of a mature plant... the ones that do grow to maturity invariably cast a shadow that will stunt the growth of other seeds.

 

There is no such thing as equality in nature.

 

We think that concepts in our minds should make perfect sense in the real world - but our concepts are based on a very limited perspective, they’re biased by everything from our emotionally reactive subconscious preferences to our upbringing, our language, our parents and their beliefs etc...

 

Reality is always far more complex than any ideology.

 

Political movements that have attempted to create equality have proven to be some of the most brutal. Yet the ideology that started them sounded so good.

 

If you truly wish to understand Daoism, or any other ancient tradition that has stood the test of time, then you need to approach it with humility. If you come to it with preconceived notions, then all you’ll see is a distorted reflection of yourself.

I am not sure why talking about equality and I don't think I implied if there is inequality there is equality. This is not the point, the more I see around the world, my little world living in a large cosmopolitan city where corruption reigns, the more I see inequality, there is an imbalance and chaos reigns until manu militari becomes the norm. Inequality is a man made issue not nature problem to solve. I don't see my emotions involved in what I see individuals who have to struggle to end meets and have to survive and it is not a small percentage of individuals. Granted, I practice minimalism to minimize cost of living but I can see other people who have to struggle because they cannot find a job to make it better and got to find whatever job minimum wage and still just barely surviving. And all this is not ideology, class struggle dialectics or political rhetoric, fake news or what have you, the problem is that there is an issue and one of them is inequality. Back in the days, people would ignore and nobody will say anything because of what they believed, so far I have not seen a Daoist being a leader to propose or show in actions for changes. Could you tell me which preconceived notions? How to apply humility in this context? Is it in the DDJ? Or DDJ Ch 67 line 7?
I have three treasures
I hold on to them and protect them
The first is called compassion
The second is called conservation
"The third is called not daring to be ahead in the world"
humility - the awareness that seeing oneself as being above or ahead of other people can only lead to failure.

Derek Lin  translation and comment.
 

Edited October 15, 2020 by Mig