Inequality

[thelerner]

46 minutes ago, Mig said:

I was expecting more from a Daoist perspective based on the Daoists classics..

thanks a bunch

Doesn't matter what a Daoist does. 

What matters is what you do.

Or is this all theoretical.. for study not for action.  Which is fine.  Most of us, Daoist or not, are not diving into poverty stricken areas to 'save' them.  Some, God bless them will, but it takes a special self sacrificing person.  

 

for me, its chickens, I send out a flock or two each month thru Heifer.org, or so they claim.  Over a life time, I'll be responsible for 10,000's of birds.. maybe some bird flu too, but it's something. 

 

It might be the best thing one could do is work smart, work hard, get lucky and wealthy enough to open up some factories in poverty stricken areas that hire locals.  Pay'em a decent wage, and lift some families out of dire poverty.  How to make $$?  I find its very Daoist to find value in other people's garbage.  My family's business was reselling used corrugated boxes.  Bought'em by the ton, sold'em by the box.  Started in the 1930's, did quite well. 

[Mig]

On 11/4/2020 at 8:15 PM, thelerner said:

Doesn't matter what a Daoist does. 

 

** True enough although if we look at history episodes Daoists were involved in revolts or participated in uprising when inequality was beyond control. IMHO, at least we can learn something about this since we are living moments of disparity, misery and inequality.

 

On 11/4/2020 at 8:15 PM, thelerner said:

What matters is what you do.

Or is this all theoretical.. for study not for action.  Which is fine.  Most of us, Daoist or not, are not diving into poverty stricken areas to 'save' them.  Some, God bless them will, but it takes a special self sacrificing person.  

 

Indeed, is about doing not just talking about that issue. This is not about saving them, it is much more complicated but donating to those in need doesn't help. I would imagine that bringing everyone together to find ways to solve the problem is a start and then having a plan of action, bringing results and see if that works.

 

On 11/4/2020 at 8:15 PM, thelerner said:

 

for me, its chickens, I send out a flock or two each month thru Heifer.org, or so they claim.  Over a life time, I'll be responsible for 10,000's of birds.. maybe some bird flu too, but it's something. 

 

It might be the best thing one could do is work smart, work hard, get lucky and wealthy enough to open up some factories in poverty stricken areas that hire locals.  Pay'em a decent wage, and lift some families out of dire poverty.  How to make $$?  I find its very Daoist to find value in other people's garbage.  My family's business was reselling used corrugated boxes.  Bought'em by the ton, sold'em by the box.  Started in the 1930's, did quite well. 

 

Good for you and I applause your initiative. My curiosity started as I am reading the DDJ and ZZ , wondering how Daoism faces inequality whether is social or economical or how we can learn to find a balance living in society and how to move thru in society. Simple, certainly is to find that balance although my interest is how Daoists found in the DDJ or ZZ ideas  where you can inspire or leading by example. We are living interesting moments mostly thanks to digital revolution although we are forgetting what is around us and how much unbalance one can find in our little world and around the world.

 

[Master Logray]

If we approach the scriptures of religions, we can always find references to all types of issues, inequality being one of them.  However the religions and the societies or even the culture may pay little attention to such.  

 

Inequality, unfortunately, is one.  As in previous posts from different members, it is not a prominent nor explicit teaching of Taoism.   The Chinese societies and religions pay scant attention to it, even up to today.

 

Perhaps the idea of inequality stems from an equal citizenship.  In the age of empires, who would dare to think of being equal to the kings and emperors.  Confucianism divides the societies into strata, let say the teachers are so much above a person, only slightly below the father. No equality here.

 

The Taoism influenced societies do appreciate fairness and justice which has an element of inequality.  But the modern western concept of inequality is almost nonexistent in the 2000 years.

 

As China is under communist rule, Communism does stress on equality.  Perhaps @Mig can look into communist equality, which is now more relevant than a few writings in the scriptures.

 

 

[Luxin]

On 12/10/2020 at 8:56 AM, Paradoxal said:

I find that the more progress I make spiritually, the less I care about inequality, injustices, or political issues. I used to be extremely militant about wanting equality, a fair system, and good leadership; I was probably *too* extreme back then, actually.

I too was concerned about injustice. Compassion for victims is normal, but the emotional disturbance of the "resistance mindset" doesn't bring peace. thelerner's example of the resistance monk who gets people killed is apt. Scripture and Star Trek's The Borg ("Resistance is futile") recommend nonresistance.
The concern for equality, a worldly matter, is self-defeating in the sense of the individual or masses feeling hurt or disappointed when any expectation is not met. Lao Tzu writes "accept being unimportant." The matter of peace of mind should be top priority.... Peace before the end of this life; if peace is not found in this life, it cannot be found when it's over. What is to come in this life or after is based on what is now.

[Master Logray]

44 minutes ago, Luxin said:

. Lao Tzu writes "accept being unimportant." The matter of peace of mind should be top priority.... Peace before the end of this life; if peace is not found in this life, it cannot be found when it's over. What is to come in this life or after is based on what is now.

 

Indeed, it is what we set out to do. 

[freeform]

Historically times of the greatest level of equality have always followed massive bloodshed.

 

Great equality after each of the world wars... amazing levels of equality after the French Revolution. Cultural Revolution too...

 

Want a proven method to get more equality? Then be prepared to commit mass murder 

 

Things work in cycles.

 

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

 

The Daoism I know, seeks to elevate an individual past this repeating cycle (and all such cycles) - not try to micromanage or try to manipulate the cycle in some way.

[Rara]

On 14/10/2020 at 8:25 PM, Mig said:

I am surprised about the responses as it seems that nobody sees inequality in Do they do something to make changes or just keep doing their thing and play ostrich, head in the ground and everything is okay?

 

Hi Mig. Can I answer your question here with another question? Have Daoists ever been oppressed?

[Rara]

On 14/10/2020 at 8:27 PM, Mig said:

And what do you do after? Understood to work on yourself first but again, don't we try to do the best we can though we live our lives comfortably? If you have experienced to live in the streets, you know the world is different when you are privileged and it is not an experience to enjoy. What is the right action?

 

And yes, trying your best can still be done as well. We keep it simple - personal cultivation is primary but when outside in the world, we do our best/what we can to help diminish inequality (and other things) But please remember that it isn't as simple as "fighting the good fight". Alas, the oppressors and non-cultivators are the majority and we cannot force change here. We need to accept that this has always been, and always will be the case.

 

You can become the "Perfect Man". That's all you can do.

[Rara]

On 16/10/2020 at 4:47 AM, Paradoxal said:

 

I'm not the most "Daoist" person out there, as I've only studied the DDJ shortly, but what I've seen said can be traced directly back to the DDJ. That said, where I believe most of Daoism's value lies is the practices and thought-processes behind those practices. I tend to stick to Daoist-based practices as they feel best for me, so perhaps I could be considered Daoist, but perhaps not. 

 

 

This is the version of the DDJ that I'm most familiar with. Give it a listen while you relax, and you may find the answers you're looking for. 

 

Yes, the DDJ has plenty of chapters on governance, but no one wants to follow the Way. The one striving for the power is the least fit to be king.

[thelerner]

Change and reforms can be done by politics or rebellion.  Rebellion is messy, tends to eat it own, and much of the time leaves chaos in its wake.  Politics can be dirty,  slow and corrupt.  Still.. I find it better then rebellion.

 

I wonder if we can learn something from the story of the master Butcher, a Taoist who cuts meat; does it well and effortlessly.  If a Taoist's profession is politics, he'd be on good relations with all, low key, non-divisive.. steer his projects through with patience, quietly.. 

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

Politics are a low level of understanding being based on conflict and struggle. When there is friction the power will eventually run out. When we live in harmony and balance of higher laws, the same laws that allow politics and injustice to be born we will always be Intune with society, nature, race, gender and all separation and be at one with it  all.

 

No need to be bottom feeders and be thrown off course with every wind and wave of social and political issues that are the ambition and agenda to benefit self, someone else, other and not all of humanity.

 

The world is never perfect, life is not perfect, the best we can do is eliminate the bad medicine in ourselves.

 

The original government is that the original sprit is in command. Most times the acquired spirit is in command this is the mistake of the guest being the host and the host being the guest of ones own home. So do we choose the tyrant, self concerned leader or the kind minister as the leader? It is ultimately our choice. Choose wisely and all goes well as the internal government can be set in order.

Edited November 14, 2020 by Wu Ming Jen

[Mig]

8 hours ago, Master Logray said:

If we approach the scriptures of religions, we can always find references to all types of issues, inequality being one of them.  However the religions and the societies or even the culture may pay little attention to such.  

 

Very true and certainly works to attract more believers.

8 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

Inequality, unfortunately, is one.  As in previous posts from different members, it is not a prominent nor explicit teaching of Taoism.   The Chinese societies and religions pay scant attention to it, even up to today.

Where do you base your as not being explicit teaching in Daoism?

 

8 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

Perhaps the idea of inequality stems from an equal citizenship.  In the age of empires, who would dare to think of being equal to the kings and emperors.  Confucianism divides the societies into strata, let say the teachers are so much above a person, only slightly below the father. No equality here.

 

The Taoism influenced societies do appreciate fairness and justice which has an element of inequality.  But the modern western concept of inequality is almost nonexistent in the 2000 years.

It seems that historically, poverty or inequality had already existed as a way of living but today the world is different and inequality is a common denominator.

 

8 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

As China is under communist rule, Communism does stress on equality.  Perhaps @Mig can look into communist equality, which is now more relevant than a few writings in the scriptures.

I guess there are new policies to eradicate poverty which is very unusual during this time of human history.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/b818aece-4cd7-4c99-8b62-e52ae4aa1b21

 

8 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

 

 

[Mig]

4 hours ago, Rara said:

 

Hi Mig. Can I answer your question here with another question? Have Daoists ever been oppressed?

Aren't they part of the population who was oppressed for centuries? I think they were in the same boat as everybody else and this is the reason why I think there are many thoughts to ponder from the Daoist perspective. Daoists seem to have had a tradition of utopias. An example of founding ideal societies is the Yellow Turban (Huangjin 黃巾) during times of oppression.

[Wu Ming Jen]

On Wudang mountain there are large stone turtles that have stone tablets 20 feet tall which says that Taoist are protected by the government.

 

During the cultural revolution the monks wrote on the walls of the temples long live chairmen Mao so the solders could not destroy the temples. Very smart.

 

Taoism is the foundation of Chinese culture for over 8000 years and continues to this day.   If you don't oppose the government you can not be oppressed. The revolution was an ideology to wipe out the old not focused on just Taoist and yes at that time in history you could call it oppression for sure but that was short lived.

 

Have Taoist ever oppressed others in their philosophy, way of life, religion? that may have been the question.

[manitou]

3 hours ago, thelerner said:

I wonder if we can learn something from the story of the master Butcher, a Taoist who cuts meat; does it well and effortlessly. 

 

 

Yet another translation says the master butcher never has to sharpen his knife.  I asked a master butcher about this once (he referred to himself as one).  He said, that's because the bone actually sharpens the knife, they cut it so close to the bone.  Pretty incredible.

 

I'm in full agreement that the very best we can do to change things is to change ourselves first.  The change to enlightenment affects all energy fields, and there's really nothing we have to do other than be kind.

[Rara]

16 hours ago, Mig said:

Aren't they part of the population who was oppressed for centuries? I think they were in the same boat as everybody else and this is the reason why I think there are many thoughts to ponder from the Daoist perspective. Daoists seem to have had a tradition of utopias. An example of founding ideal societies is the Yellow Turban (Huangjin 黃巾) during times of oppression.

 

Yes, I think it's safe to say that if there is a call to action, Daoists respond accordingly.

[Luxin]

On 15/11/2020 at 2:35 AM, Wu Ming Jen said:

During the cultural revolution the monks wrote on the walls of the temples long live chairmen Mao so the solders could not destroy the temples. Very smart.

 

Taoism is the foundation of Chinese culture for over 8000 years and continues to this day.   If you don't oppose the government you can not be oppressed. The revolution was an ideology to wipe out the old not focused on just Taoist and yes at that time in history you could call it oppression for sure but that was short lived.

Pindar made it known that he respected and kept on good terms with all the autocrats he knew or knew of. To voice (even privately) any objection to the thoughts or demands of those in power is inadvisable.... Silence and acting ability can save you. Authorities, like all of us, make mistakes unconsciously; to speak of them is a mistake.**

// PS ** Though pointing out another's errors frequently leads to some level of chaos, someone I don't recall said that instead of pointing out another's errors we can, more safely (sometimes) just express how we feel about the situation resulting from the mistakes (disgusted etc.) without naming anyone; this I sense is better than direct criticism of another, but  may only be relevant in a democracy or at home.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Luxin
adding a PS

[manitou]

On 11/15/2020 at 2:39 AM, Rara said:

 

Yes, I think it's safe to say that if there is a call to action, Daoists respond accordingly.

 

 

LOL.  By not doing?

[Michael Sternbach]

4 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

LOL.  By not doing?

 

Right. And yet nothing is left undone.

[Rara]

2 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

LOL.  By not doing?

 

2 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Right. And yet nothing is left undone.

 

By doing without doing.

 

Let's not do this lol...there's a wu wei thread somewhere on this forum 

[Mig]

I found this clearly explained about inequality and something to think about comparing to Daoist thinking:

 

 

[freeform]

On 18/11/2020 at 9:50 PM, Mig said:

I found this clearly explained about inequality and something to think about comparing to Daoist thinking:

 

 

 

Just commenting on the first image of this video.

 

The people pictured - protesting in the middle of time square - are very much the top 5% of the world... not the 95%... not even close.

 

People have a very narrow perspective... usually one that puts them at the centre of everything, and makes everything distant from their reality very vague and insignificant.

 

Is there inequality? Of course there is - that is the nature of things.

 

Inequality rises in times of prosperity and redistributes more equally in times of great calamity... it's a pattern that has played out throughout history.

 

But it's important to note that most people in the west - who feel that they're at the disadvantaged end of the inequality spectrum have no idea of the hardships they'd face in a true, global, equally-redistributed world...

 

For a start, they'd be a lot more concerned about feeding their donkey than about filming a protest on their fancy new smartphone.

[SongShuhang]

So it's like body-positive movement when people realize unfairness and inequality that is out there, but instead of actually working on themselves, they deny the reality and protest for their rights to change nothing and feel good about it.

 

[anshino23]

7 hours ago, SongShuhang said:

So it's like body-positive movement when people realize unfairness and inequality that is out there, but instead of actually working on themselves, they deny the reality and protest for their rights to change nothing and feel good about it.

 

 

Working as a doctor and seeing these types of patients in the ER every single day it is not only frustrating but also deeply depressing to see such a development in mainstream thought. These types of patients are usually riddled with comorbidities and when they experience trauma, they break not just one thing but usually multiple things and have reduced healing and decreased mobility. 

[Mig]

17 hours ago, SongShuhang said:

So it's like body-positive movement when people realize unfairness and inequality that is out there, but instead of actually working on themselves, they deny the reality and protest for their rights to change nothing and feel good about it.

 

I don't see the point about inequality. One thing for sure the image distortion in this image says it all. It seems obvious that her face is taken as a model, not the average type of facial and her body doesn't show what it really looks like. Reality is different and marketing images we see everywhere are another way to manipulate medias.