Quote or misquote

[Mig]

I was checking here and saw a quote as follows:

do not struggle go with the flow of things and you will find yourself at one with the mysterious unity of the universe

 

Is it really from ZZ or another made up quote. If it is real where can I find it in the original ZZ?

[lrn2livorlive2lrn]

The different translations can  vary pretty dramatically but this snippet kind of fits the last line of a story in chapter 6 . 
 

When one rests in what has been arranged, and puts away all thought of the transformation, he is in unity with the mysterious Heaven."  
 

The story is roughly giving the advice of the quote, but it’s not what one would expect from the quote alone. 
 

I can see how you could turn that into that quote. Your quote is much more broad and immediately relatable though.  It could be somewhere else in there.

[Mig]

23 hours ago, lrn2livorlive2lrn said:

The different translations can  vary pretty dramatically but this snippet kind of fits the last line of a story in chapter 6 . 
 

When one rests in what has been arranged, and puts away all thought of the transformation, he is in unity with the mysterious Heaven."  
 

The story is roughly giving the advice of the quote, but it’s not what one would expect from the quote alone. 
 

I can see how you could turn that into that quote. Your quote is much more broad and immediately relatable though.  It could be somewhere else in there.

Indeed, it seems this is what Mair translations say:
Repose in what has been arranged for you and leave transformation behind, then you will be able to enter the unity of
vast heaven.

大宗師  7: 造適不及笑，獻笑不及排，安排而去化，乃入於寥天一

[Mig]

I still don't understand the translation nor the message. I have trouble with the saying go with the flow as being Daoist or new age saying and not meaning what was in the original text and the way is understood.

[lrn2livorlive2lrn]

Honestly this story is not the clearest in  message. It’s spoken by Confucius making it even more unclear about the intentions of the whole thing.  Different translations also really change the overall intention of it. 
 

the original quot you posted, attributed to zhuangzi, seems like an overall simplified paraphrase of zhuangzi.

 

My feeling about “go with the flow” is that it’s in a way accurate and also so broad that it could apply to many philosophies. 
 

this chapter is about connecting with or going with the way, he describes a sort of primitive man in touch with the way.  In this case (story)they’re already talking about an advanced thinker who seems to accepted certain unknown things in life as unknowable and in this way doesn’t attach all the false proclamations or worry of self or identity. He questions self and reality trying to link back to the idea that if you lose yourself (kind of like we can imagine an animal or primitive man from the beginning) you can get in touch with the way. Mengsun is concerned with his current state not  worried about what is next.  
 

That’s what I got from it. I haven’t put much thought into this section because I’m caught up in human life and took it as  advanced level detachment. I’m more of a dao sympathizer when it comes to these things, they would have dramatic impact on everything in your life —much easier for a recluse or something. (Not ready for them)
 

 

Edited October 1, 2020 by lrn2livorlive2lrn

[Mig]

On 10/1/2020 at 6:38 AM, lrn2livorlive2lrn said:

Honestly this story is not the clearest in  message. It’s spoken by Confucius making it even more unclear about the intentions of the whole thing.  Different translations also really change the overall intention of it. 
I wonder where those misquotes start and become valid and taken for granted

the original quot you posted, attributed to zhuangzi, seems like an overall simplified paraphrase of zhuangzi.

 

My feeling about “go with the flow” is that it’s in a way accurate and also so broad that it could apply to many philosophies. 
Where in this quote says go with the flow in the original text?
 

 

 

[shunka]

Lrn2 and Mig went to "the source" , which I always find to be a good idea.

 

This quote sounds more like something Uncle Iroh would say from "The Last Airbender", so,

being a curious sort, I thought, lets work backwards, "where did this 'new age' type quote originate?"

 

if one googles it, one finds tens of thousands of places using it, but it originates from only one book -

one of those fluffly "inspiring quotes from all over" books with vague attributions and no good "cites"  .

 

It turns out it was a compilation "edited" by Kim Lim, a newl graduate of the University of Virginia from Singapore

who came to the U.S. to study and stayed working at "Skyhorse Publishing" as an editor. I could not find any other

authorship, translations,  or scholarly works attributed to her, only as "editor". But , hey, that's more than I have done !

 

So, from a scholarly perspective, I would be inclined to discard that quote and line of thinking.

 

what I found:

=======================

Do not struggle. Go with the flow of things, and you will find yourself at one with the mysterious unity of the Universe. — Chuang Tzu

Quoted in Kim Lim (ed.), 1,001 Pearls of Spiritual Wisdom: Words to Enrich, Inspire, and Guide Your Life (2014), 184

=======================
from amazon:
 Editorial Reviews
About the Author
Kim Lim is a recent graduate of the University of Virginia, where she wrote her final year thesis on the translations and eros of Vladimir Nabokov. Her concerns are laughter and food, and she edits poetry at OF ZOOS, an online literary and art magazine. She is from Singapore.

=======================
possibly this person:
https://reedsy.com/lim-kimberley

https://www.zoominfo.com/p/Kim-Lim/2417889224

========================
in 2018 from here
http://www.marcusyilaw.com/o1-immigration-visa-lawyer-nyc-blog/client-interview-series-kimberley-lim

 I’ve been working in the publishing industry for four years, editing and acquiring books for Skyhorse Publishing, an independent publisher in New York City. I’m originally from Singapore. I studied English at the University of Virginia.

========================
I can only find one other book by a "Kim Lim", and it is clearly a different person:
https://www.amazon.com/Inoculate-Your-Biotech-Product-Market/dp/1537703668
=======================

 

hope this helps,

walk in beauty

 

shunka

 

 

[lrn2livorlive2lrn]

I don’t think zhuangzi ever says “go with the flow”. But I don’t speak ancient Chinese or modern Chinese so I rely on varying translations. I’m not sure the origins of the phrase “ go with the flow” but I’m pretty indifferent to it. There’s no way you’re going to,capture what zhuangzi is talking about in such a short phrase. It sounds like some 60s slogan, catchy easily.. I just looked his up

Origin

This expression was first recorded to be used by the Roman Emperor, Marcus Arelius, in his writings "The Meditations". He penned a lot about the flow of happiness and thoughts and he surmised that most things flow naturally and in his opinion it was better to go with the flow than to try and change society. Then sometime in 1960s America, this expression was ascribed to the hippies, who liked outdoor activities but also espoused a philosophy of taking life easy, not getting worked up, not struggling or fighting. These people drew an analogy from the way they kayaked and rafted on white water to the way life should be led, by going with the flow.

Source: theidioms.com

 

that is not surprising considering. Marcus’ stoic roots. A philosophy which shares some similarities with daoist ideas. Still I think no one knows the real origin and I think the phrase means different things to different minds (very broad)

 

Edited October 4, 2020 by lrn2livorlive2lrn

[silent thunder]

To me, 'go with the flow', seems a modern mind's paraphrase of the conceptual idea of wei wu wei.

[Mig]

On 10/4/2020 at 6:39 AM, silent thunder said:

To me, 'go with the flow', seems a modern mind's paraphrase of the conceptual idea of wei wu wei.

in which way the wei wu wei is equivalent to go with the flow? Any examples to provide to support that concept?

[silent thunder]

 

7 hours ago, Mig said:

10/4/2020 at 6:39 AM, silent thunder said:

To me, 'go with the flow', seems a modern mind's paraphrase of the conceptual idea of wei wu wei.

 

7 hours ago, Mig said:

in which way the wei wu wei is equivalent to go with the flow? Any examples to provide to support that concept?

Hey Mig.

 

Myriad examples. I use them on a physical level in scenic construction... every day.

I also use them subtlely in my inner practice and emotional life, but to talk of such would require more time than I'm willing to devote on a short weekend off, so I'll relate the purely physical one for now.

 

Any time you or anyone around you uses existing conditions to their benefit, or as an efficient way to move or use something they use wei wu wei in the manner I say "go with the flow".

 

One of my heroes put it way better than I can.  "Don't fight existing forces, use them"  Buckminster Fuller.

 

Whenever I or anyone uses existing energy (say gravity) to enhance a desired effect... (unloading a truck full of shit) it's in this way I'm considering ^{going with the flow, or acting without forcing, or acting by using existing conditions}

 

In the subtle realms this is equally applicable in my experience but it also becomes infinitely more malleable and adaptable and harder to describe in mental imagery and 'word/thought concepts'.

 

So I'll stick to the physical for this response...

Take moving large amounts of heavy boxes off of a truck that has transported them to your location.

 

We use gravity to our advantage when we move goods downward from the height of the trailer they were carried on, to ground level as an example.  Ramps off the back of a truck and two wheel carts allow a few guys to unload a 53' trailer full of heavy gear in about 20 minutes.

 

Or you build a ramp and spend some energy in that way that seemingly benefits one not a bit, but which when finished then allows you to roll the uncounted heavy boxes and myriad heavy equipment up to a higher level than the ground with much less effort than carrying it on your shoulders.

 

Using gravity instead of opposing it...

Or oppose it (by building a ramp) and then use wheels to assist one in defying it with much less effort required.

Edited October 11, 2020 by silent thunder
deleted a repetitive sentence and added another, for clarity

[Christopher Tricker]

On 10/1/2020 at 10:31 AM, Mig said:

I still don't understand the translation nor the message. I have trouble with the saying go with the flow as being Daoist or new age saying and not meaning what was in the original text and the way is understood.

 

I don't know of anywhere that Chuang Tzu says "go with the flow".

He does, however, use the imagery of flow and going along with.

 

In the story that opens Chapter 3, Chuang Tzu uses the imagery of our life energy (sheng 生) being like a river that flows between banks. He advises us to keep our attention on our life energy, as though keeping to the main current of a river, rather than crashing on the rocky shores of reputation and punishment. 

 

In the Chapter 3 story about the death of Old Longears (Lao Dan), Neglect to Breast Beat (Qin Shi) speaks about "residing on the current" as opposed to wailing against death.

 

In the Chapter 6 story quoted above, Second-Born Ni (Zhongni, Confucius's courtesy name) advises us to "easefully fall in line [with social norms] and go along with change".