Enlightenment

[Old Baby 108]

Hi Old Baby 108

excuse me for cutting and pasting some, but I even after your experienced reflection, I am still confused about whether or not enligtenment is being scientifically researhced. We are aware of the scientific research done on buddhist monks during meditation though.

 

To answer your question: yes, scientific research is being done on enlightenment (or higher states of consciousness) but our research is in its pilot phase and the research model is subject to bias in support of enlightenment (meaning that the organization who funds the research is convinced that states of enlightenment exist-they just want to know about the neurophysiological correlates of these states) We draw our self-reporting enlightened people from members of this organization and present our findings in the terminology of that organization...so in terms of scientific veracity-the study suffers...but where else are we going to get the money to even investigate this kind of stuff. There is no profit potential in researching enlightenment

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If we accept the possibility of enlightenment-then it appears that life does have some purpose.

Is this your scientific angle?

 

No-this was actually just an excercise in rhetoric-

 

"What is enlightenment and can it be objectively verified?"

 

Still working on this one

 

History (define history, sounds like you equal it to past stories...) is full of examples of enlightened individuals, as well as detailed descriptions of the enlightened state.

 

Well, yeah...you have thousands of years worth of stories with this concept of enlightenment at the heart of the story-people would love to believe that history is like a solid piece of granite with events as they actually happened chisled on the side but it is just not that way-as far as I can tell history is just stories.

 

One of our psychological methodologies was to find individuals who self report being enlightened (a difficult task to say the least) and then interview them to find out what experiences they have had which leads them to conclude that they have achieved enlightenment. We compare the interviews of these individuals with each other and determine the most commonly reported experiences. This process does not allow us to assess in an objective way the concept of enlightenment but it does allow us to find out more about people who report being enlightened.

AD HOC?

 

Exactly-I hope you might understand a little bit more about the limitations of this study from what I have written above.

 

"How do we overcome the subjective nature of human experience to verify that enlightenment is more than just a myth?"

problem 1 and 2.

How can you talk about verifying Enlightenment?

Isnt it too early to include yet another wide subject such as Myths?

 

I think you are a little confused by the connotation of the word "myth" in this context. Most people use myth differently than I use it here...like, "Oh, that's just a myth," which actually means, "Oh, that's not real."

I am using the word myth to describe a story that has persisted from the past...without regard for the truth value of that story. We know the story of enlightenment exists both in the past and in the present-that much is firmly established-what is not firmly established is the physiological basis for the subjective experience of enlightenment.

[rain]

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Edited April 18, 2008 by rain

[exorcist_1699]

Can Enlightenment be an object /target studied by science or psychology ?

 

Let me raise a metaphor :

 

A 2D " creature" once discovered that a strange object appeared in its 2D world , which was in fact a cross-section of a 3D creature as it was passing through it . Although this is a phenomenon happens repeatedly and can be observed from time to time , do you think , the 2D "creature" can understand what happens before its eyes ? It seems , no matter how hard the 2D " creature " thinks , how much data it collects , how many instruments from its world it uses , its effort is doomed to be fruitless .

 

And, can you say the 3D creature ( in fact, only its cross- section) is being studied and understand ?

 

Once the 2D creature has become a 3D creature itself , then everything about it will become very simple, any

expanation seems superfluous.

Edited April 3, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[Old Baby 108]

And, can you say the 3D creature ( in fact, only its cross-section) is being studied and understand ?

Once the 2D creature has become a 3D creature itself, then everything about it will become very simple, any expanation seems superfluous.

 

 

Consider this in terms of your metaphor: What if the goal of the 2D creature is not to understand the nature of the 3D creature (which is unfathomable from its own level of observation) but through its studies to better understand its own 2D nature and open its awareness to the existence of dimensions outside of its own?

[exorcist_1699]

To me, Awakening is a status different from just being mindless. It is an abrupt change , a jump from one status to another status, like there is a door suddenly open in your mind leading to some arena new...some people even find such a jump/change accompanied with some kind of sound....

 

Thinking it in terms of taoist qi gong practice, the quality of qi you experience in Awakening is totally different from what you experience under mindlessness or ordinary mental status . I call qi arising under Enlightenment , a deeper state of Awakening , as meta-qi ( just a translation ,other people may have better terms than mine) ; Kinds of diseases it can cure are also different from those you can cure by just applying ordinary qi . For example ,diseases such as Cancer and AIDS , can hardly be cured by qi you initiate under ordinary mental condition or just being mindless.

 

Of course, I do not say mindlessness is meaningless; absolutely not .Contrary to many people's thinking that concentrating of our mind on certain spot of our body or imagining something wonderful , in fact ,getting rid of mental interference , is a precondition of the appearance of qi . So, mindlessness is really an achievement provided that you are not trapped in it .

Edited April 5, 2008 by exorcist_1699

[exorcist_1699]

Some people may use whether there is an appearance of a "pearl" or "ball " before us as the proof of Enlightenment ; by observing its size ( at first may just look like a small bean ) and color , you know where you reach . However, although in most cases it is true, the shortcoming of such proof is that you are using a subjective thing to prove another subjective thing ; doubt still exists .

 

It is worse for people who adopt imagination as a method right from the beginning of their practice. At this stage , they will be puzzled by whether it is an illusory ball , imaginary ball or a real one ?

 

To solve the problem , Taoism cleverly adopts a way to prove it indirectly on the opposite side : as human beings , we are an unity of spirit and body, and ,Awakening and Enlightenment , as some kinds of huge accomplishment in our spirit, they must also generate deep impact on our physical body . So, why not proving it by seeing whether your cancer is cured, white hair disappear , fallen teeth re-grown ,wrinkles recede or sleeping becomes unnecessary ?

Edited April 5, 2008 by exorcist_1699