“Golden Elixir is another name for xing and ming” – Liu Yiming

[MIchael80]

3 hours ago, EmeraldHead said:

Oh I missed that <3

 

But, what are the NAMEs of these concepts and practices?

Hi! 

 

Well there is a lot under the umbrella of "neidan " . However what the russians termed ancient neidan seems to be one method but with different practices. 

Later neidan seems to be different from this ancient approach. 

I am not saying this is good or bad or real or not real neidan....just that the approach is different. 

 

In this ancient approach there is no xing first...only xin first and then ming and xing (ancient northern) and ming first (ancient southern) then xing.

Xing is yuan shen which these schools actually call soul and ming is yuan jing/ chi. ( till puberty this is one Energy with the onset of puberty it becomes yuan jing and yuan chi).

 

From my perspective these ancient neidan is a unique approach and cannot be compared to tantra, yoga etc.

 

These yuan energies (xing and ming = preheaven Yin and Yang)  are the first split in the dao to produce something individual.  In these schools one does not awaken to the dao but "returns or repairs the dao" within a person which results in realization of the dao (non duality) by fixing this primordial split.

In tantra,  yoga there is no pre heaven method one only works with energies within the body.

Using Hindu/yoga terminology i would say that pre-heaven energies work in the causal body as opposed to the Energy body.

 

Xing and ming (pre heaven Yin and Yang are united which creates the elixir) ( that is the stage of chi to shen).Then the elixir developes further/matures on its own but can be supported with methods in that maturing.

 

No book etc. about ancient neidan has been written but i hope that changes.

 

:-)

Edited October 2, 2020 by MIchael80

[dwai]

54 minutes ago, MIchael80 said:

In tantra,  yoga there is no pre heaven method one only works with energies within the body.

Using Hindu/yoga terminology i would say that pre-heaven energies work in the causal body as opposed to the Energy body.

The entirety of Vedanta (Jnana Yoga) and Kashimir Shaivism's Sambhavopaya works on awareness alone and in simple recognition of one's true nature (Xing).  All the other energy really has to deal with the other aspects of "yoga". 

 

Is Kundalini pre-heaven or Post-heaven?

Which is the one you consider? Prana Kundalini or Chit Kundalini?

 

When you work with the higher chakras (outside the body), is that pre-heaven or post-heaven?

 

That might be a ludicrous topic to consider from a Hindu/yogic system, as Yoga/Tantra doesn't really differentiate in pre-heaven/post-heaven manner. There is Awareness, and it's activity - Energy. Under limitation, it appears to be individual mind and energy, once limitation has been removed, it is realized as being none other than awareness and its action alone.

 

Instead of getting caught up in the weeds of Pre-heaven/post-heaven methods, if we look at what is being pointed to, then I think we've got a better chance of grasping the 'truth'. 

[Cleansox]

1 hour ago, MIchael80 said:

 

Well there is a lot under the umbrella of "neidan " .

Absolutely. 

1 hour ago, MIchael80 said:

However what the russians termed ancient neidan seems to be one method but with different practices. 

Later neidan seems to be different from this ancient approach. 

Can you give some sort of time frame for this? 

Is ancient =predates yellow court classic? 

Or is ancient =Follows the methodology that Zhan Boduan/the Zhong-Lu tradition laid down in well known texts? 

Or is there another point in time where we can see that tradition changed? 

1 hour ago, MIchael80 said:

I am not saying this is good or bad or real or not real neidan....just that the approach is different. 

Approaches have changed. 

[MIchael80]

12 minutes ago, dwai said:

The entirety of Vedanta (Jnana Yoga) and Kashimir Shaivism's Sambhavopaya works on awareness alone and in simple recognition of one's true nature (Xing).  All the other energy really has to deal with the other aspects of "yoga". 

 

Is Kundalini pre-heaven or Post-heaven?

Which is the one you consider? Prana Kundalini or Chit Kundalini?

 

When you work with the higher chakras (outside the body), is that pre-heaven or post-heaven?

 

That might be a ludicrous topic to consider from a Hindu/yogic system, as Yoga/Tantra doesn't really differentiate in pre-heaven/post-heaven manner. There is Awareness, and it's activity - Energy. Under limitation, it appears to be individual mind and energy, once limitation has been removed, it is realized as being none other than awareness and its action alone.

 

Instead of getting caught up in the weeds of Pre-heaven/post-heaven methods, if we look at what is being pointed to, then I think we've got a better chance of grasping the 'truth'. 

Well i do not know what you want from me? You appear triggered to me.

I explained these old neidan Systems to the best of my ability and not spirituality in general. If you want to do that fine but the topic is xing ming and elixir.

And they have certain terms and definition of these and i use them. 

 

Xing is not true nature ... dao is...xing is pre heaven yin.

 

I am familiar with highest yoga tantra and a little of other tantric Systems and several yoga Systems (kriya, kundalini,  laya)

I think i said what these neidan schools term pre heaven is causal in yoga.

 

Best.

[Cleansox]

24 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

Yoga/Tantra doesn't really differentiate in pre-heaven/post-heaven manner. There is Awareness, and it's activity - Energy. Under limitation, it appears to be individual mind and energy, once limitation has been removed, it is realized as being none other than awareness and its action alone.

I forgot, had you read the article? 

 

If you have, does this in your opinion relate to the true/false Ming/Xing as described there (page 51/207)?

[dwai]

1 minute ago, MIchael80 said:

Well i do not know what you want from me? You appear triggered to me.

I explained these old neidan Systems to the best of my ability and not spirituality in general. If you want to do that fine but the topic is xing ming and elixir.

And they have certain terms and definition of these and i use them. 

 

Xing is not true nature ... dao is...xing is pre heaven yin.

 

I am familiar with highest yoga tantra and a little of other tantric Systems and several yoga Systems (kriya, kundalini,  laya)

I think i said what these neidan schools term pre heaven is causal in yoga.

 

Best.

Hi Michael,

 

I’m not triggered by you at all. I saw what I felt was inaccurate so pointed it out.  
 

If you read the document linked in the OP, he clearly outlines xing as true nature. Xing is apparently classified into two, as is Ming. The heavenly Xing and the acquired xing. Similarly with ming - one is the qi of Dao and the other is inherited. He further classifies the heavenly xing and the qi of dao as the same as original nature. 
 

best,

 

dwai 

[MIchael80]

12 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

Absolutely. 

Can you give some sort of time frame for this? 

Is ancient =predates yellow court classic? 

Or is ancient =Follows the methodology that Zhan Boduan/the Zhong-Lu tradition laid down in well known texts? 

Or is there another point in time where we can see that tradition changed? 

Approaches have changed. 

I am not good with the history but what i was taught is that the System that i called ancient neidan (and was not called neidan at that time)is very old and that Lao Tze and the yellow emperor practiced that (method of the first emperors ...is the Name giving to that). And this System of the first emperors is the most powerful and complete. But it is not taught publicly anywhere.

 

The russians seem to have it but only teach it to higher teachers within their schools.

Edited October 2, 2020 by MIchael80

[MIchael80]

2 minutes ago, dwai said:

Hi Michael,

 

I’m not triggered by you at all. I saw what I felt was inaccurate so pointed it out.  
 

If you read the document linked in the OP, he clearly outlines xing as true nature. Xing is apparently classified into two, as is Ming. The heavenly Xing and the acquired xing. Similarly with ming - one is the qi of Dao and the other is inherited. He further classifies the heavenly xing and the qi of dao as the same as original nature. 
 

best,

 

dwai 

Good! :-)

 

As i said i critisize these kind of texts even though i find them interesting to a certain extend. I tried to provide knowledge from within these schools and how they frame it which is different from scholary Interpretation.

[dwai]

27 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

I forgot, had you read the article? 

 

If you have, does this in your opinion relate to the true/false Ming/Xing as described there (page 51/207)?

Yes I liked the article. What I understood from it is as follows — 

 

True xing is pure awareness Or chaitanyam, false xing is what we call chidābhāsa (or reflected consciousness). False xing is the mind which is reflected light of awareness. 
 

With the ming part, I think the correlation is in terms of chit/prana kundalini as true ming, while the panchavayu (five types of prana) can be likened to the false ming (acquired). 

 

Again, cosmologically, there are certainly differences between these traditions — but cosmology is after the fact of the “real thing”, imho.

 

 

 

Edited October 2, 2020 by dwai
Adding a graphic for illustratration

[Cleansox]

12 minutes ago, MIchael80 said:

I am not good with the history but what i was taught is that the System that i called ancient neidan (and was not called neidan at that time)is very old and that Lao Tze and the yellow emperor practiced that (method of the first emperors ...is the Name giving to that). And this System of the first emperors is the most powerful and complete. But it is not taught publicly anywhere.

Funny enough, Bruce Frantzis claims that his method is the same as Lao Tze practiced. 

 

I was going to write earlier that I also, like so many others, have done cross-cultural studies and that I found striking resemblances of key points relating to the practice, rather that how the experience is framed. 

This resemblance is not found in modern public versions, where some aspects of energetics are changed and simplified. 

 

But I realised that this might still not be in the vincinity of what you was thinking about (and, seeing your clarification to my question, it probably isn't) , and I am reluctant to develope this thought further. 

 

Interesting thread though.

[MIchael80]

17 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

Funny enough, Bruce Frantzis claims that his method is the same as Lao Tze practiced. 

 

I was going to write earlier that I also, like so many others, have done cross-cultural studies and that I found striking resemblances of key points relating to the practice, rather that how the experience is framed. 

This resemblance is not found in modern public versions, where some aspects of energetics are changed and simplified. 

 

But I realised that this might still not be in the vincinity of what you was thinking about (and, seeing your clarification to my question, it probably isn't) , and I am reluctant to develope this thought further. 

 

Interesting thread though.

English is not my first language...and i am not sure if i understand you correctly.

 

But yeah there is a lot of similiarity of the practices of different traditions,  Systems etc.

 

It was not until i had access to these ancient neidan that i saw that it is to a certain extend different to most of the other practices out there. 

Merging of oposing energies is done in a variety of traditions though only within the Energy body and not the causal. 

And the replenishment of ming is of course not widely spread but seems to be present to some extend in the Tamil siddha tradition and in external alchemy as well. 

[Cleansox]

53 minutes ago, MIchael80 said:

English is not my first language...and i am not sure if i understand you correctly.

Mine neither, and I hesitated when I wrote that post partially because I didn't get the formulation clear in english, so it might be mine part more than yours that is the problem 😁

53 minutes ago, MIchael80 said:

 

Merging of oposing energies is done in a variety of traditions though only within the Energy body and not the causal. 

I might have to read up on those terms... 

53 minutes ago, MIchael80 said:

And the replenishment of ming is of course not widely spread 

No, that seems to be one of the first things that get left out, both the replenishing and actually working on the level of Ming instead of working with other energetics that are similar in apperence. 

[mrpasserby]

*To cultivate the real while living in the vulgar, to exit the world while dwelling in the dust, you should first awaken to your xing. (in my experience: we call it creating a functional spirit body, to be used, to gain experience within the ethereal planes, and coming into contact with others who are doing the same)

This is one of my favorite pics because it depicts so much of the required energy exchanges simultaneously going on within as the spirit/xing interacts with the physical/ming, both primordial and future real energies can be easily imagined to be involved in the exchange and the inverted exchange: the creative ethereal energies working together producing the 10k things and others being readied to become forms as the clouds of stardust/flux within the enveloping wrappings of the emerging waveforms molecular structure. Then as all the balanced actions are naturally accruing and manifest the central IM is shown as being current to the central balance and dispensing of the light energies to invoke the cultivation of the raw forms.  

My several decades of experience processing energies are within another lineage, and because the teachings have been mostly eliminated from the physical plane I have chosen to express what I can share within Taoist Neiden terminologies. Thanks to the added cultivation of this thread I can now add the information that expresses to me a deeper version of what this pic represents what I believe to be called the Cinnabar Field, which is within my new Deeper understanding of the terminology that represents the central dan ten, called by me the solar heart. In my experience: the act of assisting a student to move forward is paramount, in order for me to begin my higher levels of understanding, the training process of one student must be completed by me and the breath of life (I believe to be called the Golden Elixir) had to be issued by me in a ceremony.  I have posted the actual experience of this startup ceremony of a student in my ilk within another thread.

 .

**Apr 20, 2019 - In Daoism Xing and Ming are two interrelated concepts that can be understood in a variety of ways. ... First, the literal meaning of Xing and Ming, words when translated into ... In Daoist Neidan practices, Xing and Ming are sometimes ... They are thought to correspond to Spirit (Xing) and the Breath (Ming) ...

*Merging of Xing and Ming” (“Xingming hunrong lun” 性命混融論), his second-generation disciple, Wang Jie, points out that the sole cultivation of xing or ming leads to incomplete states of realization. Focusing only on xing, he says, makes it impossible to manifest the “pervading” power of Spirit (shentong 神通), by which he seems to refer to the supernatural knowledge of aspects of the sensible world (in the sense of Buddhist abhijñā, that is, in order to comprehend or to renounce them, according to their kind); focusing only on ming may grant long life, but not transcending the world: If you only cultivate your xing and do not cultivate your ming, after your body dies your Nature becomes a yin spirit (yinshen), and you cannot manifest the pervading power of Spirit. If you only cultivate your ming and do not cultivate your xing, your body may live a long life, but you will forever reside in the phenomenal world and will be unable to transcend the cycles of kalpas.100 苟有只修性而不修命，身死之後，性為陰靈，不能現神通。只修命而 不修性，身雖長生，終住於相，不能超劫運。 Both xing and ming, therefore, should be cultivated. However, analogously to Li Daochun, Wang Jie emphasizes the priority of xing over ming, and states that by knowing one’s xing one can also know one’s ming: To cultivate the real while living in the vulgar, to exit the world while dwelling in the dust, you should first awaken to your xing. 在俗修真，居塵出世，當以悟性為先。 In cultivating the real, xing is the first principle; as you see your xing, you do the work for refining your ming. 101 100 Huanzhen ji, 2.5b. The purpose of Neidan is often described as the creation of an immortal “yang spirit” (yangshen 陽神). See van Enckevort, “The Three Treasures,” especially 136–41, whose discussion is based on Wu Shouyang’s views but also applies to other Neidan traditions. 101 Huanzhen ji, 3.39a and 3.27

 

*http://www.fabriziopregadio.com/files/PREGADIO_Destiny_Vital_Force_or_Existence.pdf

**www.internalartsinternational.com 

Edited October 5, 2020 by mrpasserby
clarity

[freeform]

My experience of the Northern approach is most certainly not a 'xing only' approach that @dwai mentioned.

 

I believe the higher level Neidan practices - the ones that @MIchael80 mentioned as the 'ancient Neidan' that works on the causal level - from what I understand, are indeed part of modern Neidan schools - and are known as the higher vehicle of cultivation. The lower vehicle being the direct work on the Ming level, the middle vehicle being work on the Xing level.

 

On 02/10/2020 at 8:16 PM, MIchael80 said:

Merging of oposing energies is done in a variety of traditions though only within the Energy body and not the causal.

 

If I've got it right - that what you mention as the ancient Neidan, is indeed the same as the 'higher vehicle' as I've been taught - then yes, there is no manipulation of energy as the work is done in a different 'body'... Except you can't really access this level of practice without having created form within the formless - in other words, created the causal body first. Even if you have the methods, you can't put them into practice, just as a pianist without hands can't play the piano.

 

That's probably why it's reserved for the higher-level teachers in the school you're talking about.

 

As I understand it, when it's said to have been developed before the yellow emperor, it is not really talking of true historical time, but of a certain cataclysmic shift in human consciousness. After this shift, the higher vehicle became inaccessible to people, unless they went through certain processes (the lower vehicle and middle vehicle).

 

On 02/10/2020 at 7:07 PM, dwai said:

Instead of getting caught up in the weeds of Pre-heaven/post-heaven methods, if we look at what is being pointed to, then I think we've got a better chance of grasping the 'truth'.

 

ahh the perennial move towards homogenization

 

Daoist systems of cultivation are not about truth - they're about setting in motion a step by step transformation along a certain causal chain...

 

On 02/10/2020 at 3:37 AM, dwai said:

in my eyes, I don't see any difference in essence, only in labels (and associated trappings of language, cultural context, etc).

 

Kind of like saying the cuisines and recipes all across the world are all the same because the end result is a pile of poop

 

I don't think it's up to you Dwai, to correct the old sage's apparent 'mistake' of getting caught in the weeds of post/pre-heaven concepts. Being a practical bunch they don't come up with stuff for no good reason.

 

On 02/10/2020 at 9:17 PM, Cleansox said:

 

Quote

And the replenishment of ming is of course not widely spread 

No, that seems to be one of the first things that get left out, both the replenishing and actually working on the level of Ming instead of working with other energetics that are similar in apperence. 

 

That's because 1) The methods are largely secret and 2) They are hard to achieve 3) There's a step by step chain of causality - miss even one small link in the chain (even right at the beginning) and the result won't be correct. You'll have some results, certainly... you can even get amazing results - but they're still not 'correct' and won't lead you to the 'final result'.

 

From Pregadio's translation of Foundations of Internal Alchemy:

Quote

“...It is said, moreover, that when the Cinnabar Field is as firm as a stone; when one’s pace is as light as flying; and when, each time one begins to practice, the “source of the Medicine” is lively and brisk, the “celestial mechanism” is unobstructed and flourishing, and the “substance of Water” is clear and true when all this happens, one has begun the work of “refining Essence and transmuting it into Breath.”

 

This simple sentence gives an indication of what causes must be in place for the beginning of jing to qi work.

 

Yet how many people do you know with a 'cinnabar field (LDT) as firm as a stone' - for a start... Let alone the brisk flow of the jade fluid when beginning practice. Because people don't manage to achieve it, they lower the bar to meet what the have managed to achieve - might say that it's metaphorical, and it means you should have a big round belly... or worse still they might say 'imagine a red stone in your belly'

 

[edit] I've even heard of Mantak equating the jade fluid with gargling your own urine...

 

On 01/10/2020 at 5:50 PM, MIchael80 said:

personally find those articles based on neidan texts are little tiring because these texts are purposefully coded as to not make any sense to people not in the practice system of the author. And methods have never been written down and that is why the ming gong stuff is still not in the public.

 

I completely agree.

 

The reality is that for the recipe to come together as intended, there are many prerequisites - one built upon the other... Classical texts might talk about what to expect when things go right and what to watch out for when things aren't right (if you're even able to decode the meanings)

 

A cookbook might tell you that when flour is mixed correctly in the right proportions, the mix should rise. But the classics won't tell you how to mix it correctly, or even what the right proportions are... that's the teacher's role. To discuss the picture of the final loaf of bread without knowing the method or working towards your own bread baking skill - well that's often just a waste of time.

 

Although - saying that... some people can touch the transmission within the text (as @Yueya seems to) - and that can certainly bring a certain deep connection to a tradition, though it probably would not result in a nice, crusty loaf of sourdough.

Edited October 5, 2020 by freeform

[Cleansox]

24 minutes ago, freeform said:

@dwai

[edit] I've even heard of Mantak equating the jade fluid with gargling your own urine...

10-15 years ago when the David Verdasi crowd had an open access site, they discussed this use of morning urine. 

[dwai]

@freeform erudite as always  

 

[freeform]

40 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

10-15 years ago when the David Verdasi crowd had an open access site, they discussed this use of morning urine. 

Ha! Really? 
 

I know that David had access to some genuine high level teachers... so maybe there’s something to it

Cheers!🍻

[mrpasserby]

Another, big thanks to the cultivation within this thread: I connected the lower and middle levels of growth to my ilks initiations:

In my lineage, these lower level and middle level are called initiations, each one preceded by a challenge to overcome, and then an increase/*gift that also has to be earned, so a challenge to overcome in the front and a gift that has to be earned in the back. In another thread, I posted about one who made it to what is being called the middle level (30 years), which is a functional ethereal body that can traverse the ethereal plane.

*the gifts are not usually discerned by a person's physical senses but in the formless state, they become available.

Edited October 6, 2020 by mrpasserby
clarity

[Geof Nanto]

On 02/10/2020 at 12:37 PM, dwai said:

This is an excellent article and thanks @Yueya for sharing it. It is no surprise to me that this mirrors precisely what I've learnt in the Hindu traditions (Vedanta and Yoga/Tantra). 

 

Allow me to point out the correlation as follows --

 

The Northern School of Neidan with its focus on Xing, correlates to the Direct Path of Jnana Yoga (Vedanta/Sambhavopaya of Kashmir Shaivism) in the form of aphorisms such as ---

 

The Southern School of Neidan with its focus on either Xing and Ming together, or Ming and then Xing reflects the Yoga tradition or the Kashmir Shaivism Shaktopaya (Xing and Ming together) or Anvopaya (First Ming and then Xing). 

 

According to the Hindu traditions, not everyone is ready for The Direct Path, because there are karmic causes for the obscuration of one's True Nature in one's mind (scattered or polluted). Then such people need to follow the path of Xing and Ming together or Ming first (and then Xing) depending on how deeply karma influences the delusions of the mind.

 

https://ikashmir.net/publications/doc/shaivism.pdf (read sections 7-1, 7-2 and 7-3 specifically). 

 

I apologize if my adding from the Hindu tradition muddies the waters, but in my eyes, I don't see any difference in essence, only in labels (and associated trappings of language, cultural context, etc). 

 

Although I’m not familiar enough with Hindu traditions to affirm your connections, I fully agree that finding such parallels is a great help for understanding the underlying reality that the differing culturally conditioned terminology tries to convey. I myself have found the work of Carl Jung extremely valuable in that regards, especially his extensively researched insights into Western alchemy. Although their methods have nothing in common with Neidan, the way they can never describe in straightforward language their realisations and goal (which they call the philosophers stone; “the stone that is not a stone”, also called an elixir) has striking parallels with the mysterious reality Neidan practitioners try to convey with surprisingly similar imagery. Both can only hint at their inner experiences using obscure metaphorical language. They do not intentionally write in code in order to guard their secrets, rather it reflects the impossibility of conveying the reality of, to use Neidan terminology, pre-Heaven ming-xing embodiment (‘the body that is not a body’) through the intellect. This reality is by its very nature secret. 

 

The beauty of a work like Fabrizio Pregadio’s ming-xing essay is that it gives an overview of over 1000 years of Neidan in China from which such comparisons as yours and mine can be made. That there are such connections makes sense in that all we humans have a similar psyche from which mystery traditions the world over have arisen. Although the various practice methods have evolved in line with their different cultures, once they reach into the fundamental forces shaping our human psyche, which Lui Yiming and Li Daochun describe as pre-Heaven, their insights are very similar: The Golden Elixir, the philosophers stone, the Atman, the Self, to give but a few names of the unnameable. 

 

However, knowledge such as this means nothing, in fact inhibits more than helps, actual ming-xing realisation. 
 

[Geof Nanto]

On 06/10/2020 at 4:05 AM, freeform said:

Although - saying that... some people can touch the transmission within the text (as @Yueya seems to) - and that can certainly bring a certain deep connection to a tradition, though it probably would not result in a nice, crusty loaf of sourdough.

 

Sourdough breadmaking just happens to be one of my best skills. I’ve been making it for myself every 4 or 5 days for at least 25years. (In fact, I have a loaf rising at this very moment. It will be ready to bake in a few hours.) I learnt from reading a variety of recipes and then by trial and error. I buy the organic grains in bulk and I fleshly grind them into flour as needed using my stone mill. Even after all these years, home-baked sourdough is still my favourite staple. I still delight in its aroma as it bakes and feel blessed by what feels like a miracle of new birth when I take the loaf out of the oven and place it on my cooling rack.

 

Over the years people who have tasted my bread regularly ask me for the recipe.  Early on I used to try and tell them exactly how I make it, including all the variations of ingredients possible and the many tricks I’ve learnt along the way. However, I slowly realised from the feedback I received that was unnecessary effort on my part because it was not possible for them to absorb so much theory. Also, my way evolved to suit my own lifestyle and constitution.  Now I just say: “Read some recipes and experiment yourself. That way you’ll come up with a loaf that suits your own taste.” Then I outline very briefly the basic method. Sometimes they have problems making their own starter and giving them some of mine helps them know what active starter qi feels like. When they later tell me the variations they’ve come up with through their own experimentation, their delight shines through.  And I delight in the fact that they’ve put in the effort and made the basic method their own. 

 

I guess there’s some basic pointers in this to how I view the learning of Neidan. For anyone starting out who feels drawn to it, I’d emphatically recommend working closely with a competent Daoist yangsheng teacher for an extended period of time, preferably within a small group of students. With that you’ll establish an active starter qi within yourself and enhance your felt alignment with Dao. From there, with experimentation, your own personal path will slowly reveal itself to you and become clearer as you proceed.  
 

[Geof Nanto]

@mrpasserby

 

I like what you’ve written in your above two posts. I haven’t read many of your contributions to this forum but I knew enough of you from what I have read to know of the importance you place on experiencing the ethereal realm. Hence I was puzzled by your adding the ‘confused’ emoticon to my OP. I can only assume you misunderstood what this topic was about, with Fabrizio Pregadio’s  account of Neidan practice reaching into (and perhaps beyond) the ethereal realm. 

 

Perhaps you’d like to explain your motive for adding that emoticon?  Further, do you consider that the addition of any of those ambiguous oppositional emoticons to a person's s comment creates disharmony in the ethereal realm? This is not meant as a challenge, but rather I'm genuinely interested to hear your perspective. 

[mrpasserby]

After properly reading the essay, so that I could enjoy posting in the thread. I can say that there is no other emoticon that signifies discomfort. I have mentioned that I would delete any posts that were considered uncomfortable by others and I will change this emoticon as well. Reason: the first few pages of the essay were not clear to me and your comment "Comments welcome but please read this essay properly first!" caused me much discomfort because of the amount of effort that I usually put into properly reading anything. I am a doer not much of a reader, and at first, I wanted to stop reviewing the essay in its entirety without making any posts. But reading the excellent posts I thought that I should try to post some of my related experiences after studying the terminology and cultivating in and around Taoist Neidan for the past 3 years.

[mrpasserby]

On 9/30/2020 at 9:27 PM, Cleansox said:

From the info online, I would guess that Scott frames this context different than most. So I ordered one of his books, just to learn more 😁

 

Yes, not only sensing but inhabiting the peripersonal space (the technical term for that space) is a part of it. 

I agree, in my understanding: that filled space in its greater and greater levels, is sometimes called the higher chakras, I personally call the first three the Aura, Merkabah, Domain. 

[MIchael80]

12 hours ago, Yueya said:

 

Although I’m not familiar enough with Hindu traditions to affirm your connections, I fully agree that finding such parallels is a great help for understanding the underlying reality that the differing culturally conditioned terminology tries to convey. I myself have found the work of Carl Jung extremely valuable in that regards, especially his extensively researched insights into Western alchemy. Although their methods have nothing in common with Neidan, the way they can never describe in straightforward language their realisations and goal (which they call the philosophers stone; “the stone that is not a stone”, also called an elixir) has striking parallels with the mysterious reality Neidan practitioners try to convey with surprisingly similar imagery. Both can only hint at their inner experiences using obscure metaphorical language. They do not intentionally write in code in order to guard their secrets, rather it reflects the impossibility of conveying the reality of, to use Neidan terminology, pre-Heaven ming-xing embodiment (‘the body that is not a body’) through the intellect. This reality is by its very nature secret. 

 

The beauty of a work like Fabrizio Pregadio’s ming-xing essay is that it gives an overview of over 1000 years of Neidan in China from which such comparisons as yours and mine can be made. That there are such connections makes sense in that all we humans have a similar psyche from which mystery traditions the world over have arisen. Although the various practice methods have evolved in line with their different cultures, once they reach into the fundamental forces shaping our human psyche, which Lui Yiming and Li Daochun describe as pre-Heaven, their insights are very similar: The Golden Elixir, the philosophers stone, the Atman, the Self, to give but a few names of the unnameable. 

 

However, knowledge such as this means nothing, in fact inhibits more than helps, actual ming-xing realisation. 
 

We have to be careful as to not mix terma too much or some truths are lost.

 

The philosophers stone in alchemical work is an actual stone or a liquid depending on the tradition..... actual substances and neidan schools which have the ancient approach offen have methods to produce it.

 

There are also secret schools in india still teaching it. 

To make it is the same process as in neidan but with certain physical substances.  It is very dangerous to make it without a teacher but it is real and an incredible thing to use.

 

I think it is very good to look at the similiarities between Systems but also at the same time at the differences because not all have the same goal. 

[Master Logray]

2 hours ago, MIchael80 said:

We have to be careful as to not mix terma too much or some truths are lost.

 

The philosophers stone in alchemical work is an actual stone or a liquid depending on the tradition..... actual substances and neidan schools which have the ancient approach offen have methods to produce it.

 

There are also secret schools in india still teaching it. 

To make it is the same process as in neidan but with certain physical substances.  It is very dangerous to make it without a teacher but it is real and an incredible thing to use.

 

I think it is very good to look at the similiarities between Systems but also at the same time at the differences because not all have the same goal. 

 

The acutal alchemy in China was developed initially.  The inner work was the later development.  So they were named Outer Alchemy and Inner Alchemy (Neidan). 

 

I would say systems all have quite different goals. On paper every spiritual path strives for the same ending.  It is why knowledgeable persons keep on preaching all paths are the same.   To be practical, no one ever reaches the end and come back to publicly teach or write on internet.  We are faced with a wide array of systems with different goals and methods.  Mixing terms should be done very cautiously as you say.  They can mean conflicting things in different scenarios.