“Golden Elixir is another name for xing and ming” – Liu Yiming

[dwai]

57 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

What are the specific signs of enlightenment to you?

There are no signs of enlightenment in the way I consider to be enlightenment. Only, one who has the realization can directly recognize it in another. No one walks around with a stamp of "I am enlightened" on their sleeves etc. 

 

A good (indirect) way to see it is in the life of the person via close and continuous contact -- how they behave, not just in public gatherings or during seminars, but even in those moments when they are off-guard and caught unaware.

 

Energetic transmissions etc are part of it, but those are secondary imho. Some might never (need to) delve into that side at all. I have had the opportunity to see a few such people, one of whom is my own teacher. 

 

Also never for a moment should we ever try to paint all such people with the same brush strokes and in the same color. Enlightened people will often vary in personality, but the truth will shine forth all the same. 

 

Here is an Advaita Vedantic/Tantric view of different types of enlightened persons --

 

 

[Vajra Fist]

1 hour ago, anshino23 said:

 

 

To use a modern example, there's this guy Frank Yang... It appears he's convinced that he is fully enlightened now. 

 

 

That was a fascinating video. I've no doubt that whatever he's going through is very profound, but does seen very imbalanced. Feels like he's teetering on a fine line between genuine insight and insanity. That level of intensity must be exhausting.

 

Also, if that's what full enlightenment looks like, I wonder if its even desirable.

 

[dwai]

29 minutes ago, Creation said:

So, to be clear, what this is referring to dropping of the of identifying with a local or limited self, agent, or center, not as a samdhi state but as a recognition that such a thing was always an illusion - one is then walking around in waking consciousness with no sense of self or center, and it is seen that this was actually always so, just unrecognized.  Those whose experience is like this still report the arising of preferences, emotions, etc, but say the difference is there is no identification of those as "me".  

 

This is considered the most crucial shift in a number of traditional paths (Advaita, Zen, Dzogchen); whatever other elements of the path there are are secondary to this.  And yet, there are other elements of these paths - the idea that when you get this shift you are completely finished is not in Zen or Dzogchen, I will defer to dwai's understanding of Advaita on the matter.  Some Zen and Dzogchen teachers will emphasize the teaching that it is always already so or any notion of path is an illusion in order to facilitate that shift, but it is understood that this doesn't negate that on a conventional level, there is a path both before and after the shift.  This certainly confuses a lot of Westerners ("If my true nature is already enlightened, why are you telling me to a hundred thousand prostrations???")

Indeed in Nondual traditions, the clear recognition of one's True Nature is true enlightenment, not in the entry of samādhi states or in the development of siddhis (the 8 types of yogic siddhi - anima, laghima, etc etc). It is a very subtle but very permanent shift that occurs in the mind of the individual -- a clear and unshakeable recognition of one's True Nature, and thereby in the knowledge that the material universe is simply an appearance of names and forms within True Nature itself. Nothing more is to be done, nothing more is needed to be known. 

 

That's why we say, True Nature is that, by knowing which, everything is known. By that, it doesn't mean one knows every detail of every event that is occurring in the material world, but rather, an absolute fulfillment ensues, which evaporates the need for any kind of objective knowledge, period.

 

Why this often gets scoffed at is because most of us are addicted to causality and method --  "Do this and that happens, don't do that and this happens". The nature of the mind is to latch onto "things". So given that True Nature is not a "thing", there is nothing for the mind to latch on to. So people either get confused into thinking True Nature is a nihilistic void (nothing), or chase after more experiences (things) assuming that it (True Nature) is nonsense.

 

This is also the reason why many people think there is always something more to be done, something more that needs to happen -- because they don't recognize their True Nature, but are always acting based on the ego/mind, no matter how rarified or transparent it might get. 

 

That is due to the veiling, the effect on the scattered (or polluted) mind -- we call it ignorance (avidya/maya) in Hindu traditions. It is said to both exist and not exist at the same time. It has no beginning, but it has an end. When it ends, you realize that it was not a real veiling at all -- just an illusion.

 

Like seeing a mirage in the desert. When you go close and investigate, it turns out there was never any water. Yet, when you step back to the right distance, the mirage appears again.

 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2020 by dwai

[Geof Nanto]

11 hours ago, MIchael80 said:

Well the philosophers stone is Material....it is the external elixir (as oppossed to the internal elixir).

Ancient neidan schools still make it.

Indian schools also...like the Tamil Siddhas and there are schools that have it their main focus. 

 

It can come in 2 forms: as a stone (red or purple in color)....or as a liquid. 

Both boost the shen to unimaginable levels (hence philosophers) keep the body young and very long lasting.

 

 

Both eastern and western alchemy are hugely diverse traditions. My purpose here is not to attempt an objective overview, that’s a task for academia, but rather to find within those traditions accounts that give me insight into my own experiences. Beginning with my OP, that’s been my focus with my comments on this topic. 

 

I personally have no interest in alchemical substances, hence my avoidance of the subject. But that’s not meant to negate the path of those who are. 
 

[freeform]

16 hours ago, Creation said:

a recognition that such a thing was always an illusion - one is then walking around in waking consciousness with no sense of self or center, and it is seen that this was actually always so, just unrecognized.  Those whose experience is like this still report the arising of preferences, emotions, etc, but say the difference is there is no identification of those as "me". 

Ok thanks. Yes definitely very different to Daoism.

 

I think the closest attainment in Daoism is Shengren or sage. But in the case of Shengren it’s a permanent dropping away of acquired identity and having transformed ones preferences, emotions etc into De or the classical virtues. 
 

It seems quite different to ‘the recognition of the illusion of self’ - which sounds like a temporary experience that might produce a shift in outlook (like a psychedelic experience might also) - but then you operate back from your limited, local self.

 

Even then, a Shengren is not considered to be fully enlightened in Daoism either.

 

What is obviously clear to me is that paths are different. Very different. Which is great.
 

I’m genuinely happy that Dwai has achieved his realisation according to his path. 
 

But what I find incredibly troubling is his constant, relentless insistence that all paths are essentially the same and that they all need to lead to what he believes they need to lead to.
 

I think apart from being plain wrong, the constant attempt to homogenise all paths together is extremely damaging and shows a massive lack of humility.
 

Imagine if I loved Britney Spears so much that any time any other music was mentioned I’d assimilate it under the Britney umbrella.
 

“I love Beethoven’s 9th”

”Omg yes - he’s clearly communicating the same feelings as Britney’s Toxic”

 

”Roots Manuva’s baseline on Witness is amazing”

”Yeah it’s just like the live version of Britney’s Baby One More Time!”

 

I think seeing as these traditions have been around for thousands of years, they really don’t need to be assimilated or reinterpreted. You can just leave them be and respect that not everything has to fit in with your views and preferences.

[Master Logray]

I think these arts have the same or similar root, and going to the same end point.   But the paths are very different.  Just like a person walks/swims from Bombay to New York, another one takes the plane and the third one takes a ship.  They would encounter totally different experiences and life learning. 

 

By the way, enlightenment is not the end point for Taoist cultivators.  It is only an essential mid-point that must be mastered and maintained and make used for further endeavors.

 

[johndoe2012]

There is a clear description of enlightenment from Ramesh Balsekar: the end of suffering, the end of uncomfortable sensations in the body.

 

The uncomfortable sensations are caused by the identity that calls itself 'me', thus the end of 'me' is enlightenment.

 

Another stage, which is mentioned in Actualism, is the end of all instinctual passions.

 

Ramesh Balsekar was apparently ok with anger which I personally see as a symptom of aggression. But it depends on what you call anger.

 

I find a good marker of progress to be silence of mind and tension in the body. Both things anyone can feel internally, so not mystical at all.

 

Namkhai Norbu said the state of rigpa was lack of difference between you and an object, something I have not achieved myself so cannot talk about it. I only had glimpses so far.

 

[Creation]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

Ok thanks. Yes definitely very different to Daoism.

 

I think the closest attainment in Daoism is Shengren or sage. But in the case of Shengren it’s a permanent dropping away of acquired identity and having transformed ones preferences, emotions etc into De or the classical virtues. 
 

It seems quite different to ‘the recognition of the illusion of self’ - which sounds like a temporary experience that might produce a shift in outlook (like a psychedelic experience might also) - but then you operate back from your limited, local self.

In "textbook" Theravada Buddhism, the path is moral discipline, samadhi, and wisdom - in addition to samadhi attainments (8/9 jhanas) there are 4 path attainments which are something distinct than samadhi attainments, the first of which is primarily characterized by the dropping of the fetter "self".  There are records in the suttas of people (large numbers of people actually) simply hearing the Buddha preach a sermon and attaining first path then and there, with no prior meditation or moral discipline, and then just going back to their normal life and not cultivating (monastic) moral discipline or samadhi afterward.

 

How does the Theravada school you train in see first path attainment and its relation to samadhi attainment?

 

No argument from me about the importance of distinguishing clearly what different traditions get up to .

Edited October 10, 2020 by Creation

[freeform]

2 hours ago, Creation said:

No argument from me about the importance of distinguishing clearly what different traditions get up to .

I appreciate that - you’re always careful to state ‘from the point of view of...’ 
 

2 hours ago, Creation said:

There are records in the suttas of people (large numbers of people actually) simply hearing the Buddha preach a sermon and attaining first path then and there, with no prior meditation or moral discipline, and then just going back to their normal life and not cultivating (monastic) moral discipline or samadhi afterward.

One teacher answered this question that was raised by a student. His impression was that at the time of the Buddha, the ones who went to seek him out were in fact high level yogis or at least ones with a great amount of merit and at the edge of attainment anyway, and Buddhas transmission was like a lightning bolt that caused them to suddenly become Arahants. There was also talk of the time of the Buddha being very conducive to spiritual transformation. The tantric paths were a later development to overcome the difficulties of subsequent cycles of time.
 

I’ve also heard a teacher talk about sudden insight. This was described as something similar to what one hears of as enlightenment or awakening - where there’s a sudden, apparently causeless realisation of the illusory nature of self. In his opinion this form of sudden awakening is not enlightenment. In fact the majority of the gurus that then go on to ‘fall from grace’ and commit terrible atrocities began their spiritual journey this way.
 

When you read the stories of the moment of awakening in people like Werner Elkhart (and, strangely a few other Ekharts) - this ‘sudden insight’ is what happened to them.

 

According to my Daoist teacher, this is a momentary awakening. In some people, if the underlying causes are present (generally created over several past lives) this is the start of a step by step process of the dismantling of the illusory sense of self until they eventually become a Shengren. But this is very rare. Momentary awakening is not rare at all on the other hand.

 

From the Daoist perspective it’s possible to become a Shengren without a spiritual path - living in balance with nature and aiming to purify ones emotions can be enough, but to develop the attainment of Zhenren or Immortal invariably requires a teacher, a method and a lineage.

 

 

[johndoe2012]

Sudden enlightenment doesn't work because the human psyche is too complex to revert to the natural state.

 

It might work for one person but average folks need more work.

 

Releasing just one emotion can take a toll on the psyche, so releasing 1000 emotions plus being integrated afterwards is not possible in real life.

 

If you instead focus on feeling good in the present then quickly you stop worrying about enlightenment because you are feeling good, why worry about something in the future?

 

It also stops the psyche from blaming others etc because you quickly see that the psyche generates suffering so the solution is very close to home.

[Creation]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

I’ve also heard a teacher talk about sudden insight. This was described as something similar to what one hears of as enlightenment or awakening - where there’s a sudden, apparently causeless realisation of the illusory nature of self. In his opinion this form of sudden awakening is not enlightenment. In fact the majority of the gurus that then go on to ‘fall from grace’ and commit terrible atrocities began their spiritual journey this way.
 

When you read the stories of the moment of awakening in people like Werner Elkhart (and, strangely a few other Ekharts) - this ‘sudden insight’ is what happened to them.

OK, we're on the same page about this then, this sudden insight is what is emphasized as the real start of the path in the Chan/Zen and Dzogchen that I have been exposed to.  In Dzogchen in particular there are methods of based around integrating this sudden insight (they call it "rigpa" - knowledge) that lead to Rainbow Body.

 

This sudden insight is very interesting to me personally, being very oriented toward things like truth, knowledge, understanding.  Interesting to know it is known but not considered important in the classical alchemical Daoist path (correct me if I'm putting words in your mouth).  I asked Damo about it one time, seeing as he trains Chan, but he was really busy at the time and didn't get back to me.

Edited October 10, 2020 by Creation

[anshino23]

On 10/9/2020 at 9:35 PM, dwai said:

There are no signs of enlightenment in the way I consider to be enlightenment. Only, one who has the realization can directly recognize it in another. No one walks around with a stamp of "I am enlightened" on their sleeves etc. 

 

So is Frank Yang enlightened? 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, anshino23 said:

 

So is Frank Yang enlightened? 

Who is that? 

[Bindi]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

I appreciate that - you’re always careful to state ‘from the point of view of...’ 
 

One teacher answered this question that was raised by a student. His impression was that at the time of the Buddha, the ones who went to seek him out were in fact high level yogis or at least ones with a great amount of merit and at the edge of attainment anyway, and Buddhas transmission was like a lightning bolt that caused them to suddenly become Arahants. There was also talk of the time of the Buddha being very conducive to spiritual transformation. The tantric paths were a later development to overcome the difficulties of subsequent cycles of time.
 

I’ve also heard a teacher talk about sudden insight. This was described as something similar to what one hears of as enlightenment or awakening - where there’s a sudden, apparently causeless realisation of the illusory nature of self. In his opinion this form of sudden awakening is not enlightenment. In fact the majority of the gurus that then go on to ‘fall from grace’ and commit terrible atrocities began their spiritual journey this way.
 

When you read the stories of the moment of awakening in people like Werner Elkhart (and, strangely a few other Ekharts) - this ‘sudden insight’ is what happened to them.

 

According to my Daoist teacher, this is a momentary awakening. In some people, if the underlying causes are present (generally created over several past lives) this is the start of a step by step process of the dismantling of the illusory sense of self until they eventually become a Shengren. But this is very rare. Momentary awakening is not rare at all on the other hand.

 

I appreciate your contribution to this site, and I completely agree with your teacher, “step by step process of the dismantling of the illusory sense of self” captures the concept of the work that needs to be done perfectly IMO. I lose interest in this site when the alternative, a sort of mystical and surprising momentary awakening is overwhelmingly promoted as the ultimate aim, while the dismantling process it seems to me is condemned as unnecessary and futile action. 

 

Quote

From the Daoist perspective it’s possible to become a Shengren without a spiritual path - living in balance with nature and aiming to purify ones emotions can be enough, but to develop the attainment of Zhenren or Immortal invariably requires a teacher, a method and a lineage.

 

 

If the mind forms the subtle energy body system, it follows that it can’t be formed ‘correctly’ unless our minds are first informed as to what ‘correct’ is. Which is to say I agree that a teacher and a method are required, unless you are the one in a googolplex. Unfortunately I think most teachers don’t actually have a clue though. 
 

 

Edited October 10, 2020 by Bindi

[freeform]

2 hours ago, Creation said:

Interesting to know it is known but not considered important in the classical alchemical Daoist path (correct me if I'm putting words in your mouth).

Well in general momentary experiences are not considered important (though not completely without merit) in Daoism. The general emphasis is on ‘gong’ - a permanent quality.

 

So Shengren is indeed a very important attainment - but momentary awakening is not. As far as I understand shengren isn’t considered enlightenment, but a kind of deep wisdom and a sort of perfection of humanness...

 

[Michael Sternbach]

On 9.10.2020 at 4:43 AM, Yueya said:

Although these European alchemists worked externally with chemicals and some actually believed the Philosopher’s Stone to be a substance (as do some Neidan practitioners believe the Golden Elixir is a substance) right from the time alchemy entered Europe from Alexandrine and Islamic sources it inherited a spiritual component. Many medieval and Renaissance alchemists in Europe were well aware of the fact that the Stone and the 'matter' for making the Stone were to be found within the alchemist. 

 

 

Yes, alchemy has been regarded as a spiritual science right from its earliest known sources in Hellenistic times. However, it has also been a hands-on laboratory practice ever from its very beginnings.

 

The erroneous belief that the so-called Great Work (the creation of the Philosopher's Stone) was exclusively an internal process (at most projected onto chemical processes that practitioners at the time actually had little understanding of) was taken up even by C.G.Jung - a statement he earned much criticism for, and in this case deservedly so. Meanwhile, modern academics like William R. Newman and Lawrence Principe did an excellent job showing the intricate laboratory practices employed by some of the best known alchemists as well as the elaborate theories of natural philosophy they were based on.

 

But despite their shortcomings, Jung's alchemical studies were valuable in their own right, as they served to correct the then-prevalent view of alchemy as nothing more than a form of protochemistry pursued by naïve and superstitious practitioners and to demonstrate its connection to occidental metaphysical traditions such as Hermetism and Gnosis.

 

On 9.10.2020 at 10:54 AM, MIchael80 said:

Well the philosophers stone is Material....it is the external elixir (as oppossed to the internal elixir).

Ancient neidan schools still make it.

Indian schools also...like the Tamil Siddhas and there are schools that have it their main focus. 

 

It can come in 2 forms: as a stone (red or purple in color)....or as a liquid. 

Both boost the shen to unimaginable levels (hence philosophers) keep the body young and very long lasting.

 

 

You said that well.

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

I lose interest in this site when the alternative, a sort of mystical and surprising momentary awakening is overwhelmingly promoted as the ultimate aim, while the dismantling process it seems to me is condemned as unnecessary and futile action.

It’s a popular way for sure. But different paths work differently - and Daoism is one of the more methodical ones.

 

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

If the mind forms the subtle energy body system, it follows that it can’t be formed ‘correctly’ unless our minds are first informed as to what ‘correct’ is.

Yes - exactly. It’s a two way street. And ‘correct’ depends upon a lineage. There are different ‘corrects’.

 

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

Which is to say I agree that a teacher and a method are required

To achieve sagehood, a teacher isn’t required - it can be attained with a method alone (and a lot of luck, discipline and natural talent of course)... The DDJ is a method to become a shengren for example.
 

But to go deeper, to the various stages of immortality for instance, a teacher is required because you need a living lineage connection. 

 

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

Unfortunately I think most teachers don’t actually have a clue though. 

Yeah. Sadly true.

 

The rampant assimilation and homogenisation is sadly killing off any real growth of the spiritual arts.
 

And we get shit like ‘Yoqi - combining the best of the ancient practices to improve your sex life in jus 8 minutes a day’. 
 

So teachers fall under the spell of ‘we understand things better now’ and so we optimise, simplify, combine, reinterpret, hack, assimilate, scientifically validate, modernise, improve...

[Michael Sternbach]

On 9.10.2020 at 8:21 AM, Cleansox said:

It is interesting that the western tradition uses terms that overlap the eastern traditions' vocabulary. 

 

It would be equally interesting to know if they code similar practice methods, but since I have no time to expand my studies beyond that which is relevant to my current practice, I guess I will never know. 

 

At least as far as "external practice" (i.e., in the laboratory) and its underlying concepts are concerned, there are definitely many parallels. I find Joseph Needham's extensive work particularly enlightening in this regard.

[Creation]

29 minutes ago, freeform said:

Well in general momentary experiences are not considered important (though not completely without merit) in Daoism. The general emphasis is on ‘gong’ - a permanent quality.

 

So Shengren is indeed a very important attainment - but momentary awakening is not. As far as I understand shengren isn’t considered enlightenment, but a kind of deep wisdom and a sort of perfection of humanness...

 

Ah, OK, so the people I have talked to that are deep in to the sudden awakening path report a permanent shift in their perception rather than a momentary experience, it's just that this shift is at the consciousness level so they still have regular emotions etc, though often dramatically reduced.  Then the work is to refine the insight (for instance if you initially replaced identification with your human personality with identification with a cosmic personality there is still work to be done) and to go into the emotions and find all the patterns that are still based in the momentum of ego structures and release those. 

[Michael Sternbach]

Regarding the discussion whether the Elixir is to be considered an internal or an external agent, I think we need to take the distinction between Neidan and Waidan into account. - Conveniently, Wikipedia got this one quite right.

 

Waidan, translated as external alchemy or external elixir, is the early branch of Chinese alchemy that focuses upon compounding elixirs of immortality by heating minerals, metals, and other natural substances in a luted crucible. The later branch of esoteric neidan "inner alchemy", which borrowed doctrines and vocabulary from exoteric waidan, is based on allegorically producing elixirs within the practitioner's body, through Daoist meditation, diet, and physiological practices.

 

By the way, one of the borrowed terms alluded to here is non other than dantian, which literally means "cinnabar field" - cinnabar and its two components sulfur and mercury being  substances that play an important role in Chinese alchemy, but also in its Western equivalent.

[freeform]

7 minutes ago, Creation said:

a permanent shift in their perception rather than a momentary experience, it's just that this shift is at the consciousness level so they still have regular emotions etc

That would still be considered an experience - (or at least incomplete)... For the Daoist teachers I’ve trained with, something isn’t complete until its quality has permeated from consciousness to the energetic and all the way to the physical.

 

Unless this permanent shift in consciousness has manifested physically, it’s still considered an experience... even if the experience lasts years. And in many cases this is exactly what happens - a change in consciousness is experienced for a time until it closes down again and the self subverts whatever inner changes have taken place back under its domain.

 

For example a Shengren has specific physical or physiological signs. And every step towards the transformation of self has these signs.

The way they name things kinda illustrates the thinking...

 

We think of ‘qigong’ as something we do - but in reality it’s an attainment - it’s the attainment of the mastery of your Qi. The exercises we do are the means by which we attain qigong. Most terminology is like that - and there’s a reason for it.

 

It’s a very practical, pragmatic system. Guarding against delusion is built in. 
 

In many ways other paths are often quicker because you can have all sorts of experiences without having to work for the transformations. But for the vast majority these will stay as experiences, for a few talented or just plain lucky ones they’ll result in true transformation.

 

In Daoism, possibly because it was a secretive tradition with fewer numbers of practitioners, they had to create a system that works for most people. So everything is achieved through gong... and through all the layers, including physical.

[Bindi]

15 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

Regarding the discussion whether the Elixir is to be considered an internal or an external agent, I think we need to take the distinction between Neidan and Waidan into account. - Conveniently, Wikipedia got this one quite right.

 

Waidan, translated as external alchemy or external elixir, is the early branch of Chinese alchemy that focuses upon compounding elixirs of immortality by heating minerals, metals, and other natural substances in a luted crucible. The later branch of esoteric neidan "inner alchemy", which borrowed doctrines and vocabulary from exoteric waidan, is based on allegorically producing elixirs within the practitioner's body, through Daoist meditation, diet, and physiological practices.

 

By the way, one of the borrowed terms alluded to here is non other than dantian, which literally means "cinnabar field" - cinnabar and its two components sulfur and mercury being  substances that play an important role in Chinese alchemy, but also in its Western equivalent.

The very earliest reference to waidan according to Pregadio was: 
 

Quote

Around 133 BCE, Li Shaojun suggested to Emperor Wu of the Han that he should follow the example of the mythical Yellow Emperor (Huangdi), who had performed an alchemical method at the beginning of human history. Li Shaojun said that the emperor should perform offerings to an alchemical stove in order to summon supernatural beings, in whose presence cinnabar would transmute itself into gold. Eating and drinking from cups and dishes made of that gold would prolong the emperor’s life and enable him to meet the Immortals. Then, after performing the major imperial ceremonies to Heaven and Earth, the emperor would obtain immortality. - Pregadio.

To me this is likely to be an already garbled early story that has mistaken internal subtle energy realities for external objects, a mistake that led to countless deaths and unrealisable hopes until it became obvious that the early alchemists were going the wrong way about it, at which time some bright person sought to discover what was now considered to be the golden ‘elixir’ within. 

[Michael Sternbach]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

The very earliest reference to waidan according to Pregadio was: 
 

To me this is likely to be an already garbled early story that has mistaken internal subtle energy realities for external objects, a mistake that led to countless deaths and unrealisable hopes until it became obvious that the early alchemists were going the wrong way about it, at which time some bright person sought to discover what was now considered to be the golden ‘elixir’ within. 

 

Yes indeed, this story seems already garbled. The procedure described in it has little to do with actual alchemy. If anything, it belongs to the field of magic and theurgy.

 

Many aspiring alchemists indeed !ost their lives throughout the ages. Just like alot of people meet their Maker while engaged in mountain climbing. In either case, if one doesn't have the required physical and mental attributes, knowledge and equipment, it would be better for them to stay away from those activities.

 

Neidan is a viable way of spiritual transformation. So are Waidan and most forms of Western alchemy, though. They both require the practitioner to carry the spiritual transformative power all the way into physical matter. It is this very union of spirit and matter that alchemy in its purest form is characterised by.

 

 Or as the famous Emerald Tablet puts it:

 

 "Its power is entire if it be converted into earth."

[Bindi]

18 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Yes indeed, this story seems already garbled. The procedure described in it has little to do with actual alchemy. If anything, it belongs to the field of magic and theurgy.

 

I don’t know, there’s an alchemical stove which became the ‘ding’ or tripod, there’s ‘supernatural beings‘ in the chakras/glands/organs, cinnabar to gold exists in alchemy as does being welcomed by the immortals when alchemy is successful. Heaven and Earth are also very important in the neidan journey, the only thing missing seems to be any later references to cups and dishes made of alchemical gold. 

 

18 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Many aspiring alchemists indeed !ost their lives throughout the ages. Just like alot of people meet their Maker while engaged in mountain climbing. In either case, if one doesn't have the required physical and mental attributes, knowledge and equipment, it would be better for them to stay away from those activities.

 

Neidan is a viable way of spiritual transformation. So are Waidan and most forms of Western alchemy, though. They both require the practitioner to carry the spiritual transformative power all the way into physical matter. It is this very union of spirit and matter that alchemy in its purest form is characterised by.

 

 Or as the famous Emerald Tablet puts it:

 

 "Its power is entire if it be converted into earth."

Absolutely agreed. 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

23 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

I don’t know, there’s an alchemical stove which became the ‘ding’ or tripod, there’s ‘supernatural beings‘ in the chakras/glands/organs, cinnabar to gold exists in alchemy as does being welcomed by the immortals when alchemy is successful. Heaven and Earth are also very important in the neidan journey, the only thing missing seems to be any later references to cups and dishes made of alchemical gold. 

 

Hmm, yes; it's conceivable that this curious story should be read metaphorically and actually refers to an internal process that properly belongs to neidan rather than to waidan.

 

And while this may be the earliest (known) text on waidan Chinese alchemy, the inclusion of several characteristic requisites for the practice of its external form strongly suggests that it actually refers to a longstanding tradition of the latter, albeit used symbolically to illustrate an internal process. 

 

23 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Absolutely agreed.