“Golden Elixir is another name for xing and ming” – Liu Yiming

[anshino23]

8 hours ago, dwai said:

Who is that? 

 

You responded to my question about signs of enlightenment... I take it you just jumped over the videos in the same comment then? I used him as an example because he claims to have attained enlightenment based on Realization of Truth. He does not have the transformations that I've seen mentioned in Daoist lineages however.

 

 

I am simply curious how you view something like what happened to him... Because it gives me a very good idea about what sort of attainment that your lineage and teachers' Path leads to.

 

[Michael Sternbach]

Just happened to come across this song... Found it talks about the ancient art of alchemy and how she would feel about what people made out of her over the ages...

 

 

[dwai]

20 hours ago, anshino23 said:

 

You responded to my question about signs of enlightenment... I take it you just jumped over the videos in the same comment then? I used him as an example because he claims to have attained enlightenment based on Realization of Truth. He does not have the transformations that I've seen mentioned in Daoist lineages however.

 

 

I am simply curious how you view something like what happened to him... Because it gives me a very good idea about what sort of attainment that your lineage and teachers' Path leads to.

 

 oh I see. I’ll be happy to check him out and let you know. Will I get a “certified by Anshino” label if I pass? 😜

 

PS: Okay I saw the video. He does touch upon most of the key “concepts”, though i think he has over-dramatized/over-reacted to experiences — experiences are not the realization.

Yes there may or may not be such experiences. I know some who haven’t — these people don’t deal with the energy path — rather,  just direct inquiry alone.
 

Personally, I’ve had many — like while walking outside,  suddenly everything is nothing but my own Being — the road, the trees, houses, people, cars etc etc. But these are still experiences. Even experience of extreme joy (so much so that tears streaming down my face for long periods of time), and so on have occurred during meditation. I’ve also entered deep cessation (nirvikalpa samādhi some would call it). None of that is the “realization”. They are simply milestones on a path. Not everyone needs to have them. If you don’t, and you are not on a mystic path, one should not feel inadequate or unqualified for it.

 

Based on what I know, the “truth” is not anything earth-shattering, the sky is not going to part and rain “milk and honey or flowers

” or anything like that. It is simply a sudden and permanent shift in your mind. You suddenly realize, that which you were looking for, you already were, always have been and always will be. 
 

In Vedanta it is explained this way — “you gain what you already have, and you lose what was never yours anyway”. 
 

The truth can not be experienced in the way of subject-object experiences, as it is that which makes experiences possible. The most you can “experience” is your own face in a mirror (if that makes sense). You are Being itself. How can you experience your being? 
 

But no amount of words can help anyone else but direct realization of this simple fact. No amount of inner experiences can cause it — it has to happen via inquiry into experience itself. No need for mystical experiences — just seeing your own hand, or a flower, or a leaf is sufficient. 

Edited October 12, 2020 by dwai

[anshino23]

@dwai: Okay great. Thanks for sharing  

[Creation]

@freeform I wanted to return to some of the issues raised in this thread about realization of the illusoriness of self, and shengren vs zhenren attainment.

 

Just to review, you have described the Daoist alchemical path (path to zhenren attaiment? immortal/xian attainment?) as one where the body and mind (jing, qi, shen) are developed to high levels of functioning through rigorous training, and on this basis one enters dhyana/jhana for long periods (days even) and if all goes well the formless energy of the jhana creates a permanent shift in the body, with tangible physical effects.  The crucial thing for this physical shift to occur is proper preparation of the energetic substances of the body.  This is then done with deeper and deeper levels of jhana.  You have also mentioned that there are alchemical Theravada schools that do this also, though the methods for preparing the body are different.  You have also mentioned a different path in Daoism, the shengren path, that involves the conversion of emotion into virtue and the dropping of preferences, but which doesn't use alchemy. 

So my questions are:

1. Could you describe more about what the shengren path entails as opposed to the alchemical path, in general terms?

2. You mentioned that non-alchemical schools that test for the absence of preference by, eg. having someone eat feces rather than a tangible physical change as in alchemical Daoism, but then you said that the shengren (a non-alchemical path, correct?) will display a physical change as a result of dropping preferences.  Can you clarify?  Why would a physical change manifest in one path vs not manifest in another for the same attainment?

3. In the suttas, the Buddha defines a stream-enterer as one who has relinquished the fetters of self-view, dependence on rights and rituals, and skeptical doubt.  Damo has mentioned that in the Chinese tradition, a Ruliu (Chinese term for stream-enterer) is one who has freed themselves of the illusion of self, reliance on preference and any lack of clarity.  What is a stream-enterer in alchemical Theravada?  How does stream entry related to the process of alchemically transforming the body through successively higher jhanas?

4. You have mentioned that when third (?) jhana is fully integrated with the  body, emotions are dropped, but that there is still a form of energy in the body that performs the function that emotions had performed.  Is it the same with dropping preferences, that is, I suppose there still something in the body/mind performing the function preferences played, ie. navigating experience?  Then, what exactly has dropped away?

 

A lot of questions, I know.  I've been sitting on them for a while.

Edited November 26, 2020 by Creation

[freeform]

5 hours ago, Creation said:

I've been sitting on them for a while.

 

I can see!

 

Great questions by the way.

 

I'll do my best to answer - but there's a caveat...

 

Which is that what I say about these subjects is very much my understanding and interpretation of what I've been told - not experience. Although I've met and trained with people at or near some of these levels of attainment I'm nowhere near any of this myself. The truth is that the map is not the territory - so this theoretical understanding is only really an approximation - and there are definitely exceptions to the rule...

 

-----

 

So first of all it's not the case that Shengren (Sage), Zhenren (Enlightened) and Xian (Immortal) are different paths per se. They're attainments that could be achieved by various paths...

 

However it is said that Sagehood is achievable without specific training - it can unfold spontaneously as a result of your karma/ming and probably past lives of cultivation (though it's extremely rare)

 

-----

 

What's a lot more common is 'sudden awakening' - which I've heard described as 'Wu' (awakened) - and that is an experience of the realisation of the illusory nature of self (but not the transformation of it). This can happen spontaneously and almost randomly - this state isn't discussed very much because it's not seen as an 'attainment' by the Daoists... although it's a major topic of modern 'self-awakened' teachers in the west.

 

I've heard my teachers explain that this is not necessarily a positive thing either (if it happens outside of formal spiritual training) - and can result in a spiral into deep depression or egotism that often turns into 'evil'. Once you realise that your nature is empty, without the light of your spirit (or a spiritual tradition) to guide you - you can easily turn this 'meaninglessness' into dark despair, and an uncanny ability to hurt yourself and others without feeling guilt or remorse. Basically it can be the making of a sociopath

 

-----

 

Even if you have the karma, and thousands of lifetimes of cultivation behind you, it's considered that the attainments of Zhenren or the higher levels of Xianhood are not possible without an external method and teacher. (Though you can become a ghost immortal )

 

-----

 

6 hours ago, Creation said:

1. Could you describe more about what the shengren path entails as opposed to the alchemical path, in general terms?

 

There's a Daoist path that predates alchemy - and the result of it is becoming a Shengren - and the very best explanation (and in fact coded instruction) of this is the Dao De Jing. Although saying this, the DDJ does have some alchemical methodology in it too - probably added later in history. The primary practices that lead to Shengren are Zuowang (sitting forgetting) and Xin Zhain (heart-mind fasting)... This is what transforms the emotions into 'De' or virtues.

 

From what I've been told, that actually the path of the DDJ is pretty much closed to people because of various cyclical factors. And that for the vast majority some 'tantric' or energetic work is also required... (probably why some alchemical methods were added to the DDJ) Although I also suspect if you live in the wilderness with no human contact or modernity, you might just manage it.

 

-----

 

6 hours ago, Creation said:

2. You mentioned that non-alchemical schools that test for the absence of preference by, eg. having someone eat feces rather than a tangible physical change as in alchemical Daoism, but then you said that the shengren (a non-alchemical path, correct?) will display a physical change as a result of dropping preferences.  Can you clarify?  Why would a physical change manifest in one path vs not manifest in another for the same attainment?

 

Basically it's to do with Qi. Qi works as a catalyst between different 'states'... it's the catalyst between heaven and earth, mind and body, physical and spiritual etc etc. If you have (a lot of) Qi, then change can occur on all levels, including the physical... If you don't have a lot of qi, to keep your transformed state of consciousness, you must become a renunciate - live in a cave in the wilderness or become a monk etc. If you have Qi and you're transformed on all levels, your state is not subject to external forces and the change becomes permanent and irreversible. Hopefully that makes some sense.

 

-----

 

6 hours ago, Creation said:

3. In the suttas, the Buddha defines a stream-enterer as one who has relinquished the fetters of self-view, dependence on rights and rituals, and skeptical doubt.  Damo has mentioned that in the Chinese tradition, a Ruliu (Chinese term for stream-enterer) is one who has freed themselves of the illusion of self, reliance on preference and any lack of clarity.  What is a stream-enterer in alchemical Theravada?  How does stream entry related to the process of alchemically transforming the body through successively higher jhanas?

 

So I can't discuss the alchemical specifics - but stream entry in the Quanzhen Daoist tradition is the development of the alchemical pill and entry into the Xuan Men (Mysterious Gate). This stage and up is also a period of becoming a renunciate for some years for Daoists (and usually forever for non-alchemical paths).

 

Practice at this stage tends to transcend the laws of nature - when you hear of people meditating for years without food and water and almost no breath or heartbeat. Appearing in different places at the same time... Levitating... transforming physical structures... etc etc - basically all those other hard to believe supernatural things. This is that process.

 

In many ways you cease being 'human'. One does not enter the stream without years of preparation (including practical preparation!) Usually you need a place that will be undisturbed, you'll need assistants to come watch that nothing goes wrong with your body... any friends and family will need to say goodbye to you - because it won't really be 'you' that comes back (after 9yrs or however long it takes) - but a physical representation of your Original Spirit...

 

This is the stage past the 4th Jhana. The Buddhist group I know that does this type of stuff uses 'external' alchemy along with transmission from teachers past this level (mostly out of body as I understand it).

 

This stage is considered past Sagehood and entering into the initial stages of Enlightenment... One reason is that when someone comes back from this retreat they physically radiate light (not in the 'inner vision' - it's visible light that a camera would pick up) - and the light is often strongest around the head...

 

-----

 

7 hours ago, Creation said:

4. You have mentioned that when third (?) jhana is fully integrated with the  body, emotions are dropped, but that there is still a form of energy in the body that performs the function that emotions had performed.  Is it the same with dropping preferences, that is, I suppose there still something in the body/mind performing the function preferences played, ie. navigating experience?  Then, what exactly has dropped away?

 

What exactly has been dropped - basically 'movement' - and it's been replaced with stability... There is no longer emotional movement - there's no reactivity, no changes in emotional states. You see something that used to please you, and at this stage you feel no reactive joy... Apparently it's one of the most difficult stages to go through.

 

When this stage matures, you start to radiate the virtues instead of the emotions... The virtues are constant, stable, balanced and non-reactive... for instance you cant help but love someone cutting you off in traffic as much as you love your child or spouse... conversely you also can't love your child more than Trump say...

 

You navigate the world not through its appearances, but through the causal plane of reality (this is the De of 'Wisdom')... In essence it's like you're reading the Yi Jing process unfolding in front of you and below the apparent nature of reality.

 

This level of transformation is what makes one into a Sage

 

The Sage's actions are often seen as crazy (crazy wisdom) - their behaviour appears random - they might ride on an ox backwards like a weirdo for example... or they might slap a man that greets them warmly... but the outcome of their action always unfolds in a benevolent direction because they respond at the causal level underlying the appearance of reality.

 

-----

 

So I've probably not aanswered any of your questions properly

 

But that's what I've got.

 

I typed fast - so please forgive the rambling nature of the post.

 

As you cna imagine, each question deserves a a book of its own!

 

But hopefully it's at least somewhat useful.

[Miffymog]

Some very good questions resulted in some very good answers - thank you both.

[idiot_stimpy]

If one recognizes their true nature that is good. If one works to integrate their everyday life with their true nature that is great. I would think this integration would take years if not a lifetime.

[mrpasserby]

On 11/26/2020 at 4:11 AM, freeform said:

So I can't discuss the alchemical specifics - but stream entry in the Quanzhen Daoist tradition is the development of the alchemical pill and entry into the Xuan Men (Mysterious Gate). This stage and up is also a period of becoming a renunciate for some years for Daoists (and usually forever for non-alchemical paths).

 

Practice at this stage tends to transcend the laws of nature - when you hear of people meditating for years without food and water and almost no breath or heartbeat. Appearing in different places at the same time... Levitating... transforming physical structures... etc etc - basically all those other hard to believe supernatural things. This is that process.

 

In many ways you cease being 'human'. One does not enter the stream without years of preparation (including practical preparation!) Usually you need a place that will be undisturbed, you'll need assistants to come watch that nothing goes wrong with your body... any friends and family will need to say goodbye to you - because it won't really be 'you' that comes back (after 9yrs or however long it takes) - but a physical representation of your Original Spirit...

 

This is the stage past the 4th Jhana. The Buddhist group I know that does this type of stuff uses 'external' alchemy along with transmission from teachers past this level (mostly out of the body, as I understand it).

 

Thanks, freeform this post is really informative and does bestow light into the darkened areas of the available information.

 

Edited November 30, 2020 by mrpasserby
clarity

[awaken]

On 2020/10/1 at 7:38 AM, Yueya said:

 

No way can I give any meaningful answer to this in a few words, if at all. I’ve written about my ever-evolving practice and perspective in numerous threads over the several years I’ve been a member of Dao Bums. But to give you some small idea of my connection with Neidan, back around 1990, when I first read Zhang Boduan's (Chang Po-tuan) "Understanding Reality" [The Wuzhen pian, 悟真篇] with a commentary by Liu Yiming as translated by Thomas Cleary, the alchemical language sent shivers up my spine: 

 

The tiger leaps, the dragon soars, the wind and the waves are rough. In the correct position in the center is produced the mysterious jewel. Fruit grows on the branches, ripe at the end of the season; how can the child in the belly be any different? 

 

Even though on an intellectual level I had no way of understanding this, on a deeper level it felt totally familiar. I felt I knew it and reading it was like coming home. Hence, shortly afterwards I packed up my belongings and went on a worldwide search for teachings. From there it’s been a long and interesting journey to say the least!   
 

 

虎躍龍騰風浪麤，中央正位產玄珠。

果生枝上終期熟，子在胞中豈有殊。

 

這段的原文，我認為子在『胞』中是比較恰當的，但是劉一明的原文是說子在『腹』中，這一點我認為是很有問題的。

 

因為『胞』在丹道裡面指的是『玄關』的空間，也就是出現烏肝兔髓的空間。練到一個程度，烏肝兔髓化陰成熟之後，會產生更清淨的玄關空間。而這個更清淨的玄關空間狀態，就可以開始出現曼陀羅的進化。曼陀羅進化到一個程度，就會出現『子』，也就是人形的光。人形光是出現在曼陀羅成熟之後，也就是圓月大型曼陀羅。成熟之後的圓月曼陀羅，會在中間出現人形光，就好像胎中嬰兒一樣。

 

因此腹中的說法是有問題的，胎中才是比較符合實際狀況。

 

虎躍龍騰風浪麤。這句話裡面有一個字，有三個鹿。這個字的意思是『粗』。

意義參考古人的註解如下：

 

《説文解字》：行超遠也。

段玉裁注：鹿善驚躍，故從三鹿。引申之為鹵莽之稱。《篇》《韻》雲：“不精也，大也，疏也。”皆今義也。俗作‘麁’，今人既用‘粗’，粗行而麤廢矣。

 

意思就是粗魯，不精細。

 

也就是講在龍騰虎躍階段的狀態，相對於『中央正位產玄珠』的狀態是非常粗的狀態，不精細的狀態。

 

可是各位要知道喔，龍騰虎躍講的可是烏肝和兔髓階段，這已經是很少人練到的地方了，相比中央正位產玄珠的狀態，還是粗。更別說在產生烏肝之前的氣感階段，那更粗了。

 

所以這也是我為什麼一直強調，不要把注意力鎖定在呼吸和氣感，這樣後面的『烏肝』『兔髓』『玄珠』『子在胞中』都練不出來了。

 

The tiger leaps to the dragon, the wind and waves are rough, and the center is right to produce mysterious beads.

The fruit is mature at the end of the branch, and the seed is special in the cell.

In the original text of this paragraph, I think it is more appropriate that the Zi is in the "cell", but Liu Yiming's original text says that the Zi is in the "belly", which I think is very problematic.

Because "cell" in Dan Dao refers to the space of "porch", that is, the space where black liver and rabbit marrow appear. After practicing to a certain extent, after the black liver rabbit's marrow becomes mature, it will produce a cleaner entrance space. And in this cleaner porch space state, the evolution of mandala can begin to appear. When the mandala evolves to a certain degree, the "son", that is, the human-shaped light, will appear. The human-shaped light appears after the mandala matures, which is the full moon large mandala. When the full moon mandala matures, a human-shaped light will appear in the middle, just like a baby in the womb.

Therefore, the statement in the abdomen is problematic, and the fetal position is more in line with the actual situation.

The tiger leaps and the dragon soars through the storm. There is a word in this sentence, there are three deer. The word means "thick".

The meaning refers to the ancient annotations as follows:

"Shuowen Jiezi": travel far too far.
Duan Yu cut a note: Lu Shan jumped, so he followed Sanlu. By extension, it is called reckless. "Chapter" and "Rhyme" say: "It is not refined, it is large, and it is sparse." These are all meanings. It is commonly called '麁', but today people use 'coarse', and they are rude and useless.

It means rude, not refined.

That is to say, the state in the stage of Dragon Soaring and Tiger Leaping is a very coarse state, not a fine state, compared to the state of "profound beads produced in the central position".

But everyone should know that Long Teng Hu Yue is talking about the stage of black liver and rabbit marrow. This is already a place that few people have practiced. Compared with the state of producing profound beads in the central position, it is still thick. Not to mention the qi sensation stage before the black liver is produced, it is even thicker.

So that's why I keep stressing, don't focus on breathing and the sense of breath, so that the later "black liver", "rabbit marrow", "profound pearl" and "child in the cell" will not be able to be practiced.

[awaken]

關於中國丹道的起源，是跟中國的夏朝歷史息息相關的。

 

請各位關注中國學者劉光保的微博

 

http://blog.sina.com.cn/u/1783503983

 

如果你能看懂中文，劉光保的書是一定要讀的。因為他已經找到無數的證據，證明中國的夏朝就是古埃及。

 

古埃及就是夏朝。夏朝就是中國遠古傳說中失落的一環。

 

也就是丹道的來源並非是殷商，而是古埃及，也就是夏朝。

 

The origin of Chinese Dan Dao is closely related to the history of China's Xia Dynasty.

Please follow the Weibo of Chinese scholar Liu Guangbao

http://blog.sina.com.cn/u/1783503983

If you can read Chinese, Liu Guangbao's book is a must read. Because he has found countless evidences that China's Xia Dynasty is ancient Egypt.

Ancient Egypt was the Xia Dynasty. The Xia Dynasty is a lost link in ancient Chinese legends.

That is to say, the source of Dan Dao is not Yin Shang, but ancient Egypt, that is, Xia Dynasty.

[awaken]

On 2020/11/26 at 12:25 PM, Creation said:

@freeform I wanted to return to some of the issues raised in this thread about realization of the illusoriness of self, and shengren vs zhenren attainment.

 

Just to review, you have described the Daoist alchemical path (path to zhenren attaiment? immortal/xian attainment?) as one where the body and mind (jing, qi, shen) are developed to high levels of functioning through rigorous training, and on this basis one enters dhyana/jhana for long periods (days even) and if all goes well the formless energy of the jhana creates a permanent shift in the body, with tangible physical effects.  The crucial thing for this physical shift to occur is proper preparation of the energetic substances of the body.  This is then done with deeper and deeper levels of jhana.  You have also mentioned that there are alchemical Theravada schools that do this also, though the methods for preparing the body are different.  You have also mentioned a different path in Daoism, the shengren path, that involves the conversion of emotion into virtue and the dropping of preferences, but which doesn't use alchemy. 

So my questions are:

1. Could you describe more about what the shengren path entails as opposed to the alchemical path, in general terms?

2. You mentioned that non-alchemical schools that test for the absence of preference by, eg. having someone eat feces rather than a tangible physical change as in alchemical Daoism, but then you said that the shengren (a non-alchemical path, correct?) will display a physical change as a result of dropping preferences.  Can you clarify?  Why would a physical change manifest in one path vs not manifest in another for the same attainment?

3. In the suttas, the Buddha defines a stream-enterer as one who has relinquished the fetters of self-view, dependence on rights and rituals, and skeptical doubt.  Damo has mentioned that in the Chinese tradition, a Ruliu (Chinese term for stream-enterer) is one who has freed themselves of the illusion of self, reliance on preference and any lack of clarity.  What is a stream-enterer in alchemical Theravada?  How does stream entry related to the process of alchemically transforming the body through successively higher jhanas?

4. You have mentioned that when third (?) jhana is fully integrated with the  body, emotions are dropped, but that there is still a form of energy in the body that performs the function that emotions had performed.  Is it the same with dropping preferences, that is, I suppose there still something in the body/mind performing the function preferences played, ie. navigating experience?  Then, what exactly has dropped away?

 

A lot of questions, I know.  I've been sitting on them for a while.

 

日記班雜談＿二禪與三禪的區別

藍石 20:23:07

二禪轉三禪的過程，有時候是漸進式的，會拖比較久，有時候就是一秒鐘的切換。這一秒鐘的霎那間切換，有一個現象，就是原來還在光感體感都還在的狀態下，突然一個切換，體感霎那間突然消失了，光感也突然改變成另外一種型態的光，這時候各位就可以知道，這是一種二禪轉三禪的切換。

藍石 20:24:58

當然意識狀態也會有切換，從原來尚可勉強移動的意識狀態，切換成完全無法移動的狀態，意識狀態會停在一種不動，但是也不會覺得無聊，也沒有時間感的狀態，但是人是醒著的，主觀感覺可能只過了一兩分鐘，但是事實上，可能一小時一下子就過去了。

藍石 20:27:40

二禪雖然有產生磁吸現象，也就是注意力牢牢地被光感吸住，不會像初禪那樣失控的雜念紛飛，此時雖然是所謂的無尋無伺狀態，但是『念』仍在，注意力仍在，而三禪則是『捨念』的剛開始，所以二禪轉三禪的一個特徵，就是這個注意力的消失，『念』的捨棄。

藍石 20:28:56

二禪注意力還在，只是被吸住，但是三禪注意力沒了，因此只剩下不會動的覺，純然的覺，此時只要一動念，馬上會被擠出三禪，掉回二禪。

藍石 20:29:45

所以二禪和三禪有這個很大的差異，注意力的有無，也就是最後一念是否還在。

藍石 20:30:55

如果你要判斷你是在三禪還是二禪，你就在你覺得已經入定的狀態下，動一下心念，如果功態情境沒有變，那你的狀態就不是三禪。因為三禪只要動一下，就會馬上功態情境轉變，會有一個轉變的功態發生，會掉回二禪。

藍石 20:31:59

三禪是出現兔髓的地方，但是兔髓只有出現一陣子，可能幾個月，然後就從此沒有了，因此兔髓不是一個常態性的存在，最後一念的捨棄，才是常態性的存在。

 

以上這篇文章是我在2021-9-13寫的

 

Diary class miscellaneous talk_The difference between the second meditation and the third meditation
Bluestone 20:23:07
The process of turning the second meditation into the third meditation is sometimes gradual, and it will drag on for a long time, and sometimes it is a one-second switch. There is a phenomenon in the switching of this second, that is, when the light sense and body sense are still still there, suddenly a switch, the sense of body suddenly disappears, and the sense of light suddenly changes to another At this time, you can know that it is a kind of switching from the second jhana to the third jhana.
Bluestone 20:24:58
Of course, the state of consciousness will also be switched, from the original state of consciousness that can barely move to a state of completely immobile, the state of consciousness will stop in a state of motionlessness, but it will not feel bored, and there is no sense of time, but people Is awake, the subjective feeling may be only a minute or two, but in fact, an hour may have passed in one fell swoop.
Bluestone 20:27:40
Although the second jhana has the phenomenon of magnetic attraction, that is, the attention is firmly absorbed by the light sense, and the distracting thoughts will not fly out of control like the first jhana. Now, the attention is still there, and the third jhana is just the beginning of "resignation", so one of the characteristics of the second jhana turning into the third jhana is the disappearance of this attention and the abandonment of "mindfulness".
Bluestone 20:28:56
The attention of the second jhāna is still there, but it is absorbed, but the attention of the third jhāna is gone, so there is only a sense of immobility, pure awareness. At this time, as long as you think about it, you will immediately be squeezed out of the third jhāna and fall back. Two Zen.
Bluestone 20:29:45
So the second jhana and the third jhana have this big difference, whether there is attention or not, that is, whether the last thought is still there.
Bluestone 20:30:55
If you want to judge whether you are in the third jhāna or the second jhāna, just move your mind when you feel that you have entered the state of concentration. If the state of your practice has not changed, then your state is not the third jhāna. Because as long as the third jhana moves once, the state of the state will change immediately, and a changed state will occur, and it will fall back to the second jhāna.
Bluestone 20:31:59
The third meditation is the place where the rabbit marrow appears, but the rabbit marrow only appears for a while, maybe a few months, and then disappears. Therefore, the rabbit marrow is not a normal existence. The abandonment of the last thought is a normal existence.

The above article was written by me on 2021-9-13

 

三禪的特徵是『捨念』，內景會伴隨模糊且不動的圓月，稱為兔髓。

 

四禪的特徵是『捨念清淨』，內景則是在『捨念清淨』之後的後段，出現陽生內景。

 

而陽生內景分成三階段，到了成熟的第三階段之後，就開始大曼陀羅的演化。

 

而大曼陀羅的演化終點，就是清晰且不動的圓月，這和三禪底下的兔髓圓月是完全不同的。

 

因為大曼陀羅圓月就是『子在胞中』的起點，也就是『清淨正玄關』的開始。

 

The characteristic of the three meditations is "repentance", and the interior scene will be accompanied by a vague and unmoving full moon, called rabbit marrow.

The characteristic of the Four Dhyanas is "purity of renunciation of mind", and the inner scene is the latter stage after "purification of renunciation of mind", the inner scene of yang life appears.

The interior scene of Yangsheng is divided into three stages. After reaching the third stage of maturity, the evolution of the big mandala begins.

The end point of the evolution of the Great Mandala is the clear and unmoving full moon, which is completely different from the rabbit marrow full moon under the three meditations.

Because the big mandala full moon is the starting point of "the son is in the cell", that is, the beginning of "the pure and pure entrance".

 

如果你想要知道什麼是烏肝，什麼是兔髓，什麼是陽生，什麼是圓月，什麼是『子在胞中』，那你的第一步，就是要捨棄把注意力集中在下腹部的練法。

 

雖然你把注意力集中在下腹部，你可以練出很強烈的氣感，但是這樣的練法，正是阻擋你演化的主要障礙。

 

If you want to know what is black liver, what is rabbit marrow, what is yangsheng, what is full moon, and what is "child in the cell", then your first step is to give up the focus on the lower abdomen practice.

Although you can develop a strong sense of qi by focusing on the lower abdomen, such practice is the main obstacle to your evolution.

[damdao]

21 minutes ago, awaken said:

關於中國丹道的起源，是跟中國的夏朝歷史息息相關的。

 

請各位關注中國學者劉光保的微博

 

http://blog.sina.com.cn/u/1783503983

 

如果你能看懂中文，劉光保的書是一定要讀的。因為他已經找到無數的證據，證明中國的夏朝就是古埃及。

 

古埃及就是夏朝。夏朝就是中國遠古傳說中失落的一環。

 

也就是丹道的來源並非是殷商，而是古埃及，也就是夏朝。

 

The origin of Chinese Dan Dao is closely related to the history of China's Xia Dynasty.

Please follow the Weibo of Chinese scholar Liu Guangbao

http://blog.sina.com.cn/u/1783503983

If you can read Chinese, Liu Guangbao's book is a must read. Because he has found countless evidences that China's Xia Dynasty is ancient Egypt.

Ancient Egypt was the Xia Dynasty. The Xia Dynasty is a lost link in ancient Chinese legends.

That is to say, the source of Dan Dao is not Yin Shang, but ancient Egypt, that is, Xia Dynasty.

 

A paper by Liu in english. For those interested

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2851675

[awaken]

中國有句成語，緣木求魚。

 

出處是孟子。

《孟子·梁惠王上》：「以若所為，求若所欲，猶緣木而求魚也。」

意思如下：

猶如爬上樹去找魚，根本無法獲得魚。比喻行事的方向、方法不對,必將勞而無功。

 

如果今天我們練的是丹道，那我們應該參考的是悟真篇和參同契的說法，應該去了解悟真篇當中反覆講的概念，例如陰陽，烏肝兔髓，龍虎，鉛汞等等。

 

而不是只把注意力放在下腹部的呼吸。

 

我不反對把注意力放在下腹部的呼吸作為起點行為，但是把執念放在呼吸，會導致演化的障礙，是非常明顯的事實。

 

There is an idiom in China, the edge of the wood begs the fish.

The source is Mencius.

"Mencius, King Hui of Liang": "If you want to do what you want, and ask for what you want, it is like asking for a fish because of wood."

The meaning is as follows:

It's like climbing a tree to find fish, but you can't get any fish at all. Metaphor to act in the wrong direction, method, will work in vain.

If we are practicing Dan Dao today, then we should refer to the statement of Wuzhen and Shentongqi, and we should understand the concepts repeatedly mentioned in Wuzhen, such as yin and yang, black liver and rabbit marrow, dragon and tiger, lead and mercury, etc. Wait.

Instead of just focusing on your lower abdominal breathing.

I have no objection to focusing on the breath in the lower abdomen as a starting point, but it is a very obvious fact that obsessing on the breath can lead to an evolutionary obstacle.

[Cleansox]

3 hours ago, awaken said:

 

I have no objection to focusing on the breath in the lower abdomen as a starting point, but it is a very obvious fact that obsessing on the breath can lead to an evolutionary obstacle.

Yes, it is an entry point, nothing more. 

[awaken]

很高興看到有人看得懂，並且有回應。

那我就繼續多寫一點。

呼吸可以當成下手處，也就是起點。那麼其他現象是否也可以當成起點呢？

答案是可以的。

呼吸並非是唯一可當成起點的生理現象。

『跟隨氣機而移動的動作』同樣也可以當成下手處，也就是起點。

『烏肝的光』同樣也可以當成起點。

開心竅同樣也可以當成起點。

也就是說，起點可以是動態的。

呼吸並非是可以當成起點的唯一生理現象。

 

Glad to see someone understand and respond.

Then I will continue to write a little more.

Breathing can be used as the starting point, that is, the starting point. Could other phenomena be used as a starting point?

The answer is yes.

Breathing is not the only physiological phenomenon that can be used as a starting point.

"The action of moving with the qi machine" can also be used as the starting point, that is, the starting point.

"Light of Black Liver" can also be used as a starting point.

Opening the heart Qiao can also be used as a starting point.

That is, the starting point can be dynamic.

Breathing is not the only physiological phenomenon that can be used as a starting point.

 

這也就是我教的東西，雖然是自發功，但是任何一個點，都可以當成起點。

眼睛一閉上，光就出現，這對我來說，是幾十年來的經常出現的起點，這也是自發功。

所以停止污蔑自發功，自發功是非常好的起點，呼吸並非是唯一。

自發功也包含呼吸，但是呼吸只有呼吸。

 

有一個中國成語，以管窺天，意思是透過一根管子看到的天空是非常有限的。

我相信某些人看到自發功的練習是有問題的，但是卻因此而認定自發功是有問題的，甚至認定自發功不應該給初學者練，這種想法，都是以一種非常有限的範圍內，所做出來的片面認定。

 

https://24h.pchome.com.tw/books/prod/DJAO0Z-A900B81K5

 

在台灣，很多人所學習的自發功，都是沒有老師指導的，幾乎大部分的人都是買這位林孝宗教授的書，就自己練習了，大概有百分之九十以上的人都是如此。

而我的學生，也是同樣的情況。

我們並不教授自發功，而是教授丹道的原理原則。

 

我很遺憾，在這裡自發功變成指控他人的說詞，而誤人甚深的周天功竟然變成丹道主流。

這樣的顛倒是非黑白，真是令人非常遺憾。

 

This is what I teach. Although it is spontaneous gong, any point can be used as a starting point.

As soon as the eyes are closed, light appears. For me, this is the starting point of frequent occurrences for decades, and this is also spontaneous gong.

So stop slandering spontaneous gong, spontaneous gong is a very good starting point, and breathing is not the only one.

Spontaneous work also includes breathing, but breathing is only breathing.

There is a Chinese idiom, peeping through the sky, which means that the sky seen through a tube is very limited.

I believe that some people see that the practice of spontaneous gong is problematic, but because of this, they think that there is a problem with spontaneous gong, and even think that spontaneous gong should not be practiced for beginners. This kind of thinking is based on a very limited Within the scope, the one-sided determination made.

https://24h.pchome.com.tw/books/prod/DJAO0Z-A900B81K5

In Taiwan, many people learn the spontaneous gong without the guidance of a teacher. Almost most people buy the book of Professor Lin Xiaozong and practice it by themselves. About 90% of the people are It is so.

And my students are in the same situation.

We do not teach spontaneous gong, but the principles of Dan Dao.

I regret that spontaneous success here has become an accusation of others, and Zhou Tiangong, who has been deeply misunderstood, has become the mainstream of Dan Tao.

Such a reversal of black and white is very regrettable.

Edited March 18, 2022 by awaken

[Geof Nanto]

@awaken

 

Thank you for the effort you are putting into trying to educate us about your practice. I appreciate your presence here and the perspective of Daoism you present.  But please go slower with your posts. You are writing too much.  I can only understand a fraction of what you write because I do not know Chinese and the English I get from Google Translate is problematic.  The result is plenty of mutual misunderstanding.

 

For example you write:

 

On 19/03/2022 at 3:26 AM, awaken said:

我很遺憾，在這裡自發功變成指控他人的說詞，而誤人甚深的周天功竟然變成丹道主流。

 

Translation given: “I regret that spontaneous success here has become an accusation of others, and Zhou Tiangong, who has been deeply misunderstood, has become the mainstream of Dan Tao.” 

 

I took some time to try to understand what you are saying in just that one sentence, and consider this a better translation:
 

“I regret that my comments about spontaneous gong on this forum have become an accusation to others [about the limitations of their own practice], and celestial circuit gong (周天功 zhoutian gong), which has been deeply misunderstood, has become the mainstream teaching of inner alchemy.”

 

I have no problem accepting that because my own practice has originated spontaneously from qi flows within me. It’s not focused on microcosmic orbit (xiao zhoutian 小周天). However, I also uphold the validity and great importance of such practice. But you are certainly correct, it is central to the teaching of neidan here. Indeed, it is “widely considered the main practice performed in the first stage of the Nanzong (Southern Lineage) codification of Neidan and in other varieties of Neidan”. Anything you say against it will meet stiff opposition.  For good reasons. 

 

This is basically an English language forum so you need to adapt to that, the same way I would need to adapt to a Chinese language forum. So please be patient with us and present your perspective more slowly and in smaller amounts. And most importantly, please put more effort into trying to understand what people on this forum are saying before writing your reply. Too often, your replies have shown no understanding of what was said. Hence, based on misunderstandings, you have been dismissive of people here who have extensive cultivation experience and have plenty of wisdom to offer.  真是令人非常遺憾。(That is very regrettable.) 

 

 

 

Edited March 20, 2022 by Yueya

[Cleansox]

On 2022-03-19 at 12:16 AM, Yueya said:

@awaken

But you are certainly correct, it is central to the teaching of neidan here. Indeed, it is “widely considered the main practice performed in the first stage of the Nanzong (Southern Lineage) codification of Neidan and in other varieties of Neidan”. 

 

Key term being "first stage". 

Tong rendu, clearing the ren and du mai. And not every method use the acquired mind (Chia-style) to do the job (should really cross-link to the other thread where this came up today. 

 

Seing newer posts on the subject, there seems to be some kind of hang-up on this. 

 

This can be seen in older threads on the subject, where for example the DaoDe group (WLP and the other lineage they taught) over and over again tried to explain that it was not the main, almighty method used. 

Edited March 26, 2022 by Cleansox

[awaken]

10 hours ago, Cleansox said:

Key term being "first stage". 

Tong rendu, clearing the ren and du mai. And not every method use the acquired mind (Chia-style) to do the job (should really cross-link to the other thread where this came up today. 

 

Seing newer posts on the subject, there seems to be some kind of hang-up on this. 

 

This can be seen in older threads on the subject, where for example the DaoDe group (WLP and the other lineage they taught) over and over again tried to explain that it was not the main, almighty method used. 

 

 

很高興你能認知到後天意識所帶領的小周天不是主要的道路，甚至我跟你說，這個方法用來當作初學者的主要練習法，也是很有問題的。

因為丹道的主要練法是陰陽反覆。藉著陰陽反覆能夠產生『演化』的功能。練精『化』氣，練氣『化』神，練神『還』虛。

也就是丹道有一個『自動演化』的功能才是對的。但是後天意識帶動的小周天，這種練法是無法產生「演化」的功能。

不僅無法產生『演化』的功能，還造成阻礙『演化』的產生。

所以這種後天意識帶領的小周天功法，不僅不該練，甚至應該徹底放棄才對。

否則很難練出真正的丹道。

 

I am glad that you can realize that Xiao Zhoutian led by acquired consciousness is not the main path. Even I told you that this method is very problematic when used as the main practice method for beginners.

Because the main practice of Dan Dao is the repetition of yin and yang. Through the repetition of yin and yang, the function of "evolution" can be produced. Practicing essence "transforms" qi, practising qi "transforms" spirit, and practising spirit "returns" emptiness.

That is to say, it is right that Dan Dao has an "auto-evolution" function. However, Xiao Zhoutian, driven by acquired consciousness, cannot produce the function of "evolution" by this method.

Not only can it not produce the function of "evolution", but also hinder the production of "evolution".

Therefore, this kind of small Zhou Tian Gong method led by acquired consciousness should not only be practiced, but should even be completely abandoned.

Otherwise, it is difficult to practice the real Dan Dao.

 

[Cleansox]

11 hours ago, awaken said:

 

I am glad that you can realize that Xiao Zhoutian led by acquired consciousness is not the main path.

I believe most people who study nei dan shu is aware of that. 

11 hours ago, awaken said:

sXiao Zhoutian, driven by acquired consciousness, cannot produce the function of "evolution" by this method.

As far as I can tell, most people who practice beyond a beginner level knows this. 

11 hours ago, awaken said:

ot only can it not produce the function of "evolution", but also hinder the production of "evolution". 

And this. 

11 hours ago, awaken said:

Therefore, this kind of small Zhou Tian Gong method led by acquired consciousness should not only be practiced, but should even be completely abandoned. 

Quite a few agree on this as well. 

11 hours ago, awaken said:

Otherwise, it is difficult to practice the real Dan Dao.

Because they are not the same, and one has to release the acquired mind. 

Most seems to agree about this as well. 

[awaken]

18 hours ago, Cleansox said:

I believe most people who study nei dan shu is aware of that. 

As far as I can tell, most people who practice beyond a beginner level knows this. 

And this. 

Quite a few agree on this as well. 

Because they are not the same, and one has to release the acquired mind. 

Most seems to agree about this as well. 

 

既然都知道，為什麼一堆人還在練？

而且價值觀都支持這樣的練法？

難道是找不到正確的道路嗎？

 

Now that everyone knows, why are so many people still practicing?

And the values all support this practice?

Can't find the right way?

[Cleansox]

5 hours ago, awaken said:

 

Now that everyone knows, why are so many people still practicing?

Because not everyone are studying Nei Dan Shu? 

5 hours ago, awaken said:

 

Can't find the right way?

I'm positive that a lot of people can't find the right way, microcosmic orbit or not. 

Most texts about neidan seems to cover the subject of "most teachers are ignorant of the true way". 

[awaken]

18 hours ago, Cleansox said:

Because not everyone are studying Nei Dan Shu? 

I'm positive that a lot of people can't find the right way, microcosmic orbit or not. 

Most texts about neidan seems to cover the subject of "most teachers are ignorant of the true way". 

 

你是一個很好的銷售員，很可惜我不是來買功法的。

 

You are a very good salesperson, it is a pity that I am not here to buy exercises.

 

我來這裡是有使命的，就是來推廣真正的丹道，避免有心人被誤導。

I am here with a mission, to promote the real Dan Dao and prevent newcomers from being misled by wrong methods

[Cleansox]

1 hour ago, awaken said:

 

你是一個很好的銷售員，很可惜我不是來買功法的。

 

You are a very good salesperson, it is a pity that I am not here to buy exercises.

This also makes you look like an aggressive idiot. Your lack of understanding of the english language, combined with your "mission" stated below, really works against you. 

Especially since the one looking for students is... you. 

But maybe the problem lies in the fact that this is a discussion forum, and you will have to cope with the fact that anything you write can and might get disagreed with? If you find that a problem, and you have no other way to cope with that than being rude, you can always choose to stick to your ppd. 

1 hour ago, awaken said:

我來這裡是有使命的，就是來推廣真正的丹道，避免有心人被誤導。

I am here with a mission, to promote the real Dan Dao and prevent newcomers from being misled by wrong methods

 

[freeform]

@awaken - I’ve got to say, you seem to be quite unhinged from reality.

 

As far as I can see @Cleansox is one of the only people actually engaging with you in a friendly and meaningful way, taking time to read your posts, asking clarifying questions, giving you the space to explain your stuff better… 

 

And you try and insult him.

 

If your method of cultivation leads to the state you’re exhibiting here, then to me it’s clearly to be avoided! 
 

You’re exhibiting the exact opposite of the humour, humility and kindness that a Daoist (or any healthy, decent human being) should have.

 

All I keep seeing is an inflated ego, arrogance and self entitlement with an inability to connect with people.

 

Just because you don’t ask for payment doesn’t mean that a relationship with you is free.
 

Sometimes what’s by all appearance being given freely is the most costly option there is.