“Golden Elixir is another name for xing and ming” – Liu Yiming

[Cleansox]

2 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

I would say systems all have quite different goals. On paper every spiritual path strives for the same ending. 

But teachers of old used to argue that, in practice, only their system went far enough. You can find that in the history of Kashmir Shaivism, and probably in the public "discussions" between Buddhists and Daoists in China. All of them contesting for patronage. 

Quote

We are faced with a wide array of systems with different goals and methods.  

So we can only, tentative, compare those systems that on the surface seems to describe the same process, acessed by similar methods. 

[dwai]

3 hours ago, Cleansox said:

But teachers of old used to argue that, in practice, only their system went far enough. You can find that in the history of Kashmir Shaivism, and probably in the public "discussions" between Buddhists and Daoists in China. All of them contesting for patronage. 
 

Indeed. It is a good idea to learn how to separate the rhetoric from the truth. Only experience will give us that ability. 

3 hours ago, Cleansox said:

 

So we can only, tentative, compare those systems that on the surface seems to describe the same process, acessed by similar methods. 

Or you can go the distance with any one system and then you will realize the similarities, differences, strengths, weaknesses and limitations of other systems just be reading/hearing about them. 
 

Once we have a good grounding/realization in one system, the truth will shine through from others which have it. 
 

There are two kinds of people in the world, imho. Those who dissect, and those who assimilate.

 

The dissecting kind, like to find reasons to reject something based on differences. The assimilative kind, like to consolidate and grow from similarities. 

 

I’ve been both kinds. Dissecting when I was younger, and gradually became assimilative. It is good to have both, but I’ve seen that the dissecting/dismissive tendency goes away as one matures in their practice.  

[Cleansox]

9 hours ago, dwai said:

 

Or you can go the distance with any one system and then you will realize the similarities, differences, strengths, weaknesses and limitations of other systems just be reading/hearing about them. 
 

Once we have a good grounding/realization in one system, the truth will shine through from others 

Yes, we cannot compare an unknown with another unknown, that would be a blind leading a blind. 

So familiarity with a process increases the chance of seeing the same process even if it is clothed in a different garb. 

[freeform]

13 hours ago, dwai said:

There are two kinds of people in the world

I think you’re more dissecting than you might think 

 

The truth is that dissecting or assimilating are both useless if we’re still led by our preferences.
 

Whether we dissect or we assimilate, we invariably shape things to fit our preferred ideas.

 

In alchemical Daoism the true dropping away of preference is recognised through a specific physiological change.

In non alchemical schools it’s just tested by - for example, feeding the aspirant some human excrement, or having them meditate amongst rotting corpses. But this is not so accurate because if you’re motivated enough, you could use willpower to get through the ordeal...

 

Until we have dropped all preferences, I believe it's best to let traditions be. No over-interpretation or creative analysis needed. All that's needed is following the training methodology coupled with a keen awareness of the changes happening inside.

 

However mature we think we are, we're probably not at the level of Jesus, Buddha, Lu Dongbin, or Lao Tzu - so we don't need to make any alteration or reinterpretation of any system.

 

And in a way that's quite freeing - especially when you become aware of the karmic issues regarding leading others down a wrong path in spiritual cultivation.

Edited October 8, 2020 by freeform

[dwai]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

However mature we think we are, we're probably not at the level of Jesus, Buddha, Lu Dongbin, or Lao Tzu - so we don't need to make any alteration or reinterpretation of any system.

Why do we need to be any of those personalities? We are already the Truth that shines from within them.

 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Why do we need to be any of those personalities? We are already the Truth that shines from within them.

 

Why do you think I’m saying we need to be any of those personalities?

I’m saying that to alter, create or reconfigure a spiritual system, you need to have achieved the pinnacle of spiritual transformation - like ‘those personalities’ did. 

Maybe I am ‘the Truth’ that shines from within them... but that ‘Truth light’ is marred, manipulated, refracted and overshadowed by my acquired self. Which means I’m not qualified to create spiritual traditions.
 

Or are you saying you can, because you’re fully enlightened?
 

Just not to waste time with the ‘we’re all already enlightened’ type rhetoric... Yes, the potential to become a surgeon is within everyone - but that potential is not enough to start operating on people. I’m sure you understand this  

And just as another reason not to start messing with your own spiritual amalgamation. From what I’ve been told, the karma associated with leading people astray with false spiritual teachings (whether the intent is malevolent or benevolent) - the karma accrued can be huge.
 

When you restrict and manipulate someone’s spirit (even when genuinely wanting the best), the damage can last lifetimes for them... and the karmic fallout for the one doing the manipulating is severe.

 

Edited October 8, 2020 by freeform

[dwai]

28 minutes ago, freeform said:

Why do you think I’m saying we need to be any of those personalities?

I’m saying that to alter, create or reconfigure a spiritual system, you need to have achieved the pinnacle of spiritual transformation - like ‘those personalities’ did. 

Maybe I am ‘the Truth’ that shines from within them... but that ‘Truth light’ is marred, manipulated, refracted and overshadowed by my acquired self. Which means I’m not qualified to create spiritual traditions.
 

Or are you saying you can, because you’re fully enlightened?

 

I'm saying that "the truth light is marred" is a misconception and will be corrected when we recognize ourselves as "the truth light" directly. 

Everyone is already fully enlightened, only haven't realized that yet. 

28 minutes ago, freeform said:

Just not to waste time with the ‘we’re all already enlightened’ type rhetoric... Yes, the potential to become a surgeon is within everyone - but that potential is not enough to start operating on people. I’m sure you understand this  

Enlightenment is not a potential. It is our True Nature. I can sit and logically prove to you why you're perspective is based on incomplete logic, but I won't. It is up to each one of us, how we choose to act out in this soap opera called "life". 

28 minutes ago, freeform said:

And just as another reason not to start messing with your own spiritual amalgamation. From what I’ve been told, the karma associated with leading people astray with false spiritual teachings (whether the intent is malevolent or benevolent) - the karma accrued can be huge.
 

When you restrict and manipulate someone’s spirit (even when genuinely wanting the best), the damage can last lifetimes for them... and the karmic fallout for the one doing the manipulating is severe.

 

I hope no one is being led astray by anyone else on this forum. After all, its purpose is to share thoughts and ideas. If you want teachings, go find a live teacher.   

[Piyadasi]

21 minutes ago, dwai said:

Everyone is already fully enlightened, only haven't realized that yet. 

I'm sorry but this is so goofy to me

"Everyone is already fully enlightened, only we are not enlightened yet."

Edited October 8, 2020 by Piyadasi

[dwai]

3 minutes ago, Piyadasi said:

I'm sorry but this is so goofy to me

"Everyone is already fully enlightened, only we are not enlightened yet."

Yes it is paradoxically goofy alright  

It feels like we are not. But then after realization, it dawns on us that there was never a moment we were not already enlightened. But don't take anyone's word for it -- find out yourself  

[freeform]

49 minutes ago, dwai said:

Everyone is already fully enlightened, only haven't realized that yet. 

Quote

Just not to waste time with the ‘we’re all already enlightened’ type rhetoric... Yes, the potential to become a surgeon is within everyone - but that potential is not enough to start operating on people. I’m sure you understand this  

 

 

 

Silly me! I thought I could stop things going in this direction! But it's as inevitable as this constant move towards homogenization of the modern 'spiritual' scene.

 

(I came across Yoqi the other day on youtube - combining yoga with qi gong )

 

31 minutes ago, Piyadasi said:

I'm sorry but this is so goofy to me

 

These sorts of statements are very common nowadays.

 

But look in the classics - particularly in Daoism and you never hear anything like this. In fact, it's very much the opposite. And often quite harsh - such as calling 'normal' people the 'vulgar' people...

 

I think the idea is that from the perspective of an 'enlightened' being, there's a sort of full-circle of coming back to the notion that nothing has changed, and all that's between you and enlightenment is realising that it is so.

 

Another reason people say this is that it's another way of saying that you're enlightened without actually saying it. Or sometimes as a form of 'the humbe brag' - where in answer to "are you enlightened?" - they would say "everyone is enlightened already - some (aka you) just haven't realised it yet (whereas I have)"

 

The thing is, it's a semantic trick. Whether it's a case of peeling away of the layers of the acquired self to reveal an enlightened self that was always already there... or it's a case of 'creating' enlightenment within yourself through some process - pragmatically, it doesn't matter, because either way it's a process of going from A (unenlightened) to B (enlightened).

 

And even then - peeling away the layers of the acquired self and reaching this 'original self' - for the high-level teachers I've met, this is not enlightenment... It's simply the realisation of your true self... it's the opening to begin true spiritual cultivation... everything before this isn't technically spiritual cultivation, because you never had access to your spirit - now you have... now the spiritual part of the process begins.

 

I'd be keen to hear where this 'you're already enlightened' talk comes from. You mostly hear it in Neo Advaita and Newage groups... However, I'm sure they picked it up from somewhere. I suspect some modern teachers within Buddhism, or Hinduism have said it... Does anyone know the root of it?

[Sketch]

I'd say it grows from fictional sources - from the "Thou Art God" Martian gnosis in "Stranger in a Strange Land",  through to the Green Lantern and Thors Hammer, protagonists instantly realizing "The power was in YOU all along", all the Chosen Ones, it's all confusing lines all wiggy waggy. 

 

[Piyadasi]

17 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

 

I agree with all of your points, which is why it's absurd/goofy to me to say you're enlightened of course, expect wait you're not, but we're not going to say you're not, we are going to use other words... how does that make any sense? - Sorry dwai to me it's just not the right way of thinking/speaking of things

The Pali Canon is stark in it's differentiation between enlightened and not. Normal people are 'puthujjana' - translated along the lines of 'run-off-the-mill worldling' while awakened ones and up are 'Ariya' Noble Ones. Pretty stark contrast imo. In fact the contrast is so stark that every living entity is referred to as 'beings' - from humans, to animals, spirit, demons, literal gods - but the Ariya are not considered as 'beings'. The Buddha denies being either a human or a deity... Just an example I was familiar with.

To get a sense of what they mean by these words the Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta goes about 'sensuality' (ie. your average householder's life) as:

"Yo cāyaṁ kāmesu kāma-sukhallikānuyogo,

Hīno gammo pothujjaniko anariyo anattha-sañhito..."
=
"That which is devoted to sensual pleasure in sensuality: base, vulgar, common, ignoble, unprofitable; "

I'm sure nobody cares about the continuation of the Sutta at this point, but just to drive this point home it ends with literally all the heavenly realms and beings "crying out" and more as the first disciple of the Buddha gains awakening:

"Ayañ-ca dasa-sahassī loka-dhātu,

Saṅkampi sampakampi sampavedhi,

And this ten-thousandfold cosmos shivered & quivered & quaked,

Appamāṇo ca oḷāro obhāso loke pāturahosi,

Atikkammeva devānaṁ devānubhāvaṁ.

while a great, measureless radiance appeared in the cosmos, surpassing the effulgence of the devas."

Listening to the ending was so cathartic to me once or twice in the past that I had a little Zifagong happen   But that's probably just me..

Just to drive home that I think they thought about enlightenment along different lines in the past...
 

-

I think this misunderstanding(or it's popularization) certainly has it's roots in the first Western encounters with Buddhism and probably Hinduism.

In Buddhism I'd guess it's a misunderstanding of the Mahayana idea of Tatagathagarbha or Buddha-nature... Theravadins might cynically say that that idea is a misunderstanding already The early Canon never talks about true nature in any great detail, possibly because of it being prone to misunderstanding.

I don't know much more about it though... Probably has it's roots in Western Romanticism too. Actually it's such a big sore thumb for one Western Thai Forest teacher I know, that he wrote a whole book solely dedicated to tearing down the blend of Western Romanticism and Buddhism

[dwai]

27 minutes ago, Piyadasi said:

. how does that make any sense? - Sorry dwai to me it's just not the right way of thinking/speaking of things

It makes sense when you understand/realize. It won’t until that point.  

 

Does that mean I understand/realize and you don’t? Yes.

 

Does it mean I’m saying I’m better than you? No!

 

The ‘not knowing’ is a veiling of our own nature because of the distracted mind. What distracts the mind? Objects, emotions, feelings — in essence the world. 
 

How can the mind be made to become undistracted? By practicing meditation/methods etc etc.

 

All the meditation and neigong and neidan in the world will not make you realize your True Nature. What they will do, is allow your mind to become focused and clear again, so your True Nature will become apparent to you. 

 

That’s why the wisdom path is called the Direct Path.  All words like mine (or perhaps far more authoritative than mine coming from many nondual masters) will do, is point to the truth. 

 

 

[Piyadasi]

8 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

I don't think you are correct dwai, but I don't know the truth Hopefully we will both see it eventually!

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Piyadasi said:

I don't think you are correct dwai, but I don't know the truth Hopefully we will both see it eventually!

That's a good attitude IMHO (saying that without any intention of being patronizing)...

 

[Geof Nanto]

Here's an extract from Lindy Abraham, A Dictionary of Alchemical Imagery that outlines how the Philosopher’s Stone is born. Anyone with even a passing familiarity with Neidan will see the similarities. I’ve gone to the trouble of adding it because it goes to the heart of the alchemical method and relates directly to the preceding discussion:    

 

Philosophical Child

 

The philosopher’s child is the philosopher's stone when it is first born from the union of Sol and Luna at the chemical wedding. The Emerald Table states of this child that 'the father thereof is the Sun, the mother the Moon'. Isaac Newton wrote in his commentary on the Emerald Table: 'And this generation is similar to the human, truly from a father and a mother, which are the Sun and the Moon. And when the Infant is conceived through the coition of these, he is borne continuously in the belly of the wind until the hour of birth, and after birth he is nourished at the breasts of foliated Earth until he grows up'.

 

The generation of the philosopher's stone is frequently likened to the birth of an infant or homunculus. An anonymous treatise says that after the wedding of Sol, the 'red man', and Luna, the 'white woman', 'she will come to him again and lye with him on bed and then she shall conceive and bear a Son, that shall worship all his Kin... For this Man and this Woman getteth our Stone’.

 

The Glory of the World observed: 'Hence it is well, though somewhat enigmatically said by the Sages, that there takes place a conjugal union of husband and wife, and that of the two a child is born after their likeness, just as men generate men'. Morienus wrote: 'For the conduct of this operation you must have pairing, production of offspring, birth and rearing. For union is followed by conception, which initiates pregnancy, whereupon birth follows. Now the performance of this [alchemical] composition is likened to the generation of man, whom the great Creator most high made not after the manner in which a house is constructed, nor as anything else which is built by the hand of man'.

 

The infant Stone is also sometimes personified as a female child representing sophia or wisdom.  (see Andreae, The Chymical Wedding, and Mylius, Philosophia reformata).

 

During the conception and birth of the Stone the alembic is known as the womb or the bed of birth. The Stone is known as the orphan and the alchemist plays the role of its foster-parent. As Ruland noted,  'The Chemical Philosophers find their infant ready formed by nature'. During the cibation, the alchemist must gradually nourish the infant Stone with 'milk' and 'meat' (the white and red mercurial waters) so that it may become sweet and strong. When it has grown to maturity this infant has the power to conquer all disease and transform all things to perfection.

 

[Geof Nanto]

Although these European alchemists worked externally with chemicals and some actually believed the Philosopher’s Stone to be a substance (as do some Neidan practitioners believe the Golden Elixir is a substance) right from the time alchemy entered Europe from Alexandrine and Islamic sources it inherited a spiritual component. Many medieval and Renaissance alchemists in Europe were well aware of the fact that the Stone and the 'matter' for making the Stone were to be found within the alchemist. 

 

Something that brings a wry smile to my face (in that it profoundly interests me too) is the way these Dao Bums discussions regularly seem to gravitate towards the end result of practice, be it enlightenment or whatever else one cares to call their goal. I personally strive for wholeness. After over three decades of practice, I relate the Golden Elixir and Philosopher’s Stone to atman or Self and hence the inner experience of wholeness. But, to use alchemical terminology, the work of purifying the complex web of yin and yang forces within me so that they naturally copulate in the right way is the work of half a lifetime at least. And only then with wise guidance. Early on in my Neidan practice, I conceived of ‘the child in belly’ as something akin to a tulpa (and so it might be conceived of as such within some Neidan lineages) but not now.

 

I’ll leave off adding anymore commentary until later. I’m impressed with the quality of discussion so far but I find in my oldish age (66) that I can best cope with the pace and multiple voices of these Dao Bums discussions by absenting myself for a while so I have time for reflection. Outside and beyond the words, there’s much that comes through directly from the participants, from people who read but don’t add comments. and from Spirit.  For me too, my best commentary is from outside of my words. 

 

Edit: I’m just back from a walk in the forest which surrounds my cabin. It’s a very warm spring day, 30 C. Little raiin the last few months. The land is fast drying out. Fortunately, the legacy of the devastating forest fires that swept through here Nov last year means this year at least is low fire hazard. My life is simple, quiet. My cabin is my hermitage. 

 

What I want to add here is that theory is increasing becoming nebulous for me. Within myself, word meanings and concepts tend to blur together. It takes much effort for me to focus enough to make the sort of reasonably coherent posts that are necessary to communicate on this forum.  Yet I know from past experience how much I’ve gained from writing as honestly as I can about my practice.   

 

Edited October 9, 2020 by Yueya

[Cleansox]

It is interesting that the western tradition uses terms that overlap the eastern traditions' vocabulary. 

 

It would be equally interesting to know if they code similar practice methods, but since I have no time to expand my studies beyond that which is relevant to my current practice, I guess I will never know. 

[MIchael80]

6 hours ago, Yueya said:

Although these European alchemists worked externally with chemicals and some actually believed the Philosopher’s Stone to be a substance (as do some Neidan practitioners believe the Golden Elixir is a substance) right from the time alchemy entered Europe from Alexandrine and Islamic sources it inherited a spiritual component. Many medieval and Renaissance alchemists in Europe were well aware of the fact that the Stone and the 'matter' for making the Stone were to be found within the alchemist. 

 

Something that brings a wry smile to my face (in that it profoundly interests me too) is the way these Dao Bums discussions regularly seem to gravitate towards the end result of practice, be it enlightenment or whatever else one cares to call their goal. I personally strive for wholeness. After over three decades of practice, I relate the Golden Elixir and Philosopher’s Stone to atman or Self and hence the inner experience of wholeness. But, to use alchemical terminology, the work of purifying the complex web of yin and yang forces within me so that they naturally copulate in the right way is the work of half a lifetime at least. And only then with wise guidance. Early on in my Neidan practice, I conceived of ‘the child in belly’ as something akin to a tulpa (and so it might be conceived of as such within some Neidan lineages) but not now.

 

I’ll leave off adding anymore commentary until later. I’m impressed with the quality of discussion so far but I find in my oldish age (66) that I can best cope with the pace and multiple voices of these Dao Bums discussions by absenting myself for a while so I have time for reflection. Outside and beyond the words, there’s much that comes through directly from the participants, from people who read but don’t add comments. and from Spirit.  For me too, my best commentary is from outside of my words. 

 

Edit: I’m just back from a walk in the forest which surrounds my cabin. It’s a very warm spring day, 30 C. Little raiin the last few months. The land is fast drying out. Fortunately, the legacy of the devastating forest fires that swept through here Nov last year means this year at least is low fire hazard. My life is simple, quiet. My cabin is my hermitage. 

 

What I want to add here is that theory is increasing becoming nebulous for me. Within myself, word meanings and concepts tend to blur together. It takes much effort for me to focus enough to make the sort of reasonably coherent posts that are necessary to communicate on this forum.  Yet I know from past experience how much I’ve gained from writing as honestly as I can about my practice.   

 

Well the philosophers stone is Material....it is the external elixir (as oppossed to the internal elixir).

Ancient neidan schools still make it.

Indian schools also...like the Tamil Siddhas and there are schools that have it their main focus. 

 

It can come in 2 forms: as a stone (red or purple in color)....or as a liquid. 

Both boost the shen to unimaginable levels (hence philosophers) keep the body young and very long lasting.

 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, MIchael80 said:

Ancient neidan schools still make it.

Indian schools also...like the Tamil Siddhas and there are schools that have it their main focus. 

There are also several lines in Myanmar that make ‘external alchemical preparations’.

 

In Daoist Neidan traditions external alchemical pills are very common... there are many different ones. They tend to go along with certain processes in inner cultivation - in many cases a pill would be completely poisonous (or at least ineffective) unless you’ve had specific physiological changes take place through inner cultivation.

 

It is definitely not the case that you take a pill and it magically makes you enlightened.

[Feng69]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

 

 

It is definitely not the case that you take a pill and it magically makes you enlightened.

But to make you live very much longer? 

[freeform]

10 minutes ago, Feng69 said:

But to make you live very much longer? 

Yes there are certain pills designed for longevity.
 

But as far as I’m aware, they always go hand in hand with inner cultivation. Without specific cultivation most of these pills will have an adverse effect or no effect.

 

Neigong pills are openly sold in Asia for example. These are low-level pills designed to increase the production of yin and yang Qi... but if you don’t have a consolidated Dantien and relatively open channels they will give you a burst of uncomfortable levels of energy while depleting your essence. Generally people feel manic, excited, unable to sleep for a period before crashing.
 

For someone who has trained extensively, they gently upregulate the production of Qi in your system and the Qi will begin to ‘fill’ the Dantien. 

[Feng69]

10 minutes ago, freeform said:

Yes there are certain pills designed for longevity.
 

But as far as I’m aware, they always go hand in hand with inner cultivation. Without specific cultivation most of these pills will have an adverse effect or no effect.

 

Neigong pills are openly sold in Asia for example. These are low-level pills designed to increase the production of yin and yang Qi... but if you don’t have a consolidated Dantien and relatively open channels they will give you a burst of uncomfortable levels of energy while depleting your essence. Generally people feel manic, excited, unable to sleep for a period before crashing.
 

For someone who has trained extensively, they gently upregulate the production of Qi in your system and the Qi will begin to ‘fill’ the Dantien. 

Thank you freeform for your reply. Didn't know that there are such pills sold in asia...interesting but also dangerous. 

One of my teachers in the past told me, if practicing longer sitting and standing sessions for a longer period of time it could help to supplement cordyceps. But if one don't practice intensively, one should abandon it. 

Sounds a bit similar to what you wrote. 

Edited October 9, 2020 by Feng69
Mistake in a word

[anshino23]

 

On 10/8/2020 at 5:00 PM, dwai said:

Yes it is paradoxically goofy alright  

It feels like we are not. But then after realization, it dawns on us that there was never a moment we were not already enlightened. But don't take anyone's word for it -- find out yourself  

 

To use a modern example, there's this guy Frank Yang... It appears he's convinced that he is fully enlightened now. 

 

 

 

 

 

The thing is ... is he really enlightened or is it just a realization? Which begs the question... even if it's a genuine realization, does it mean he'll go further than that? Or is there any further to go? Will he be like Padmasambhva who can leave imprints in stones and has merged with Mind on all levels of manifestation? Or is he simply free of suffering right now? Is there any way to be sure? What are the specific signs of enlightenment to you? @dwai 

 

Does becoming enlightened to you also mean attaining the Golden Embryo?

 

Quote

The alchemist who has attained the stage of the ‘golden embryo’ then spends a long time training his spirit to move and behave independently. This process is said to take years; it is like bringing up a child. This is a stage of cultivating the consciousness which requires full isolation from society. It is the level of full hermits who live high in the mountains or deep in the forests. Only when they are ready do the alchemists choose to shed their physical body in order to live fully as a spiritual entity. When this happens, they actualize the famed ‘rainbow body’ of Buddhism, which is also known as the ‘diamond body’ within Daoism. At this stage the physical body fully dissolves, leaving only Shen behind. In the case of the rainbow body, there is a full dissolving into emptiness which results in the appearance of the five colours of the elements as they break down and return to Wuji. It has been recorded many times, mostly within the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, that the practitioner who actualizes the ‘rainbow body’ vanishes, leaving only their clothes in a heap, their hair and their nails. As they vanish, a rainbow-coloured light either radiates out from them or appears in the sky above the site of their death.

‘Heavenly immortals’ are those who are said to have truly attained immortality. They have purified the true consciousness and freed themselves form the bondages of both Xing and Ming. After a long life of vibrant health and wisdom, they fully attain the golden embryo and move into the various layers of the immortal realm, free from the cycle of rebirth. Very few are said to have attained this level of skill.

~ Damo Mitchell, White Moon on the Mountain Peak

 

Food for thought...  

Edited October 9, 2020 by anshino23

[Creation]

On 10/8/2020 at 9:02 AM, freeform said:

When you restrict and manipulate someone’s spirit (even when genuinely wanting the best), the damage can last lifetimes for them... and the karmic fallout for the one doing the manipulating is severe.

 

Always good to keep this in mind, thanks.

 

On 10/8/2020 at 11:41 AM, freeform said:

I'd be keen to hear where this 'you're already enlightened' talk comes from. You mostly hear it in Neo Advaita and Newage groups... However, I'm sure they picked it up from somewhere. I suspect some modern teachers within Buddhism, or Hinduism have said it... Does anyone know the root of it?

So, to be clear, what this is referring to dropping of the of identifying with a local or limited self, agent, or center, not as a samdhi state but as a recognition that such a thing was always an illusion - one is then walking around in waking consciousness with no sense of self or center, and it is seen that this was actually always so, just unrecognized.  Those whose experience is like this still report the arising of preferences, emotions, etc, but say the difference is there is no identification of those as "me".  

 

This is considered the most crucial shift in a number of traditional paths (Advaita, Zen, Dzogchen); whatever other elements of the path there are are secondary to this.  And yet, there are other elements of these paths - the idea that when you get this shift you are completely finished is not in Zen or Dzogchen, I will defer to dwai's understanding of Advaita on the matter.  Some Zen and Dzogchen teachers will emphasize the teaching that it is always already so or any notion of path is an illusion in order to facilitate that shift, but it is understood that this doesn't negate that on a conventional level, there is a path both before and after the shift.  This certainly confuses a lot of Westerners ("If my true nature is already enlightened, why are you telling me to a hundred thousand prostrations???")

 

Actually, I would be quite curious what the perspective of your lineages is on such a realization.  My impression is that when you talk about awakening, you are referring to a samadhi/jhana attainment, which then may or may not be fully integrated with the body via an alchemical method.  What about this other type of awakening?