Does Daoists lean where the money is

[Mig]

I have posted some questions about Daoists in general regarding inequality, their precepts, etc. to understand how it is perceived or understood by fellow Daoists or well educated individuals in this forum. One thing, I keep noticing is that Daoism as well as other religious groups, they tend to lean where the money is. I don't see their temples or congregations in low income areas or impoverished neighborhoods. It seems in the past Daoists where in full battle against buddhists for the sake of power. Am I wrong or can you give examples of the contrary?

[JohnC]

Daoist mountain temples aren't around any money.

 

I think that their temples tended to be where people were at, and low income and impoverished neighborhoods just didn't have the money for construction.

 

Getting a temple going is no easy feat, and construction is as well expensive. Neighborhoods that have more money, tend to be able to donate more money.

 

I know that many court Daoists struggled with being in civilization due to moral conflicts or similar, and would often only stay in court at the directive from the emperor.

Edited October 3, 2020 by JohnC

[Sketch]

Vermilion ink certainly isn't cheap.

[EmeraldHead]

Cultivators are smart and organized. They are likely to succeed in high paying, difficult positions. They are also the ones to strive hard and not cut corners and fall to bribery.

 

I see nothing wrong with the money if they are gathered by a virtuous daoist. S/he will put them to use and likely use a large share for charity. Even seen a billionaire cultivator? No. You don't need thousands of millions (aka thousands of lottery once in a lifetime jackpots).

Edited October 3, 2020 by EmeraldHead

[Gerard]

Stop stereotyping. FYI, Buddhist monasteries in Thailand and Taiwan are very well-off!

 

In a particular and very famous Thai monastery I saw something I didn't like, which is what in the West is called slavery. 
 

Organised religion is a big problem.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Gerard

[Gerard]

3 hours ago, JohnC said:

Daoist mountain temples aren't around any money.

Maybe in the 1600s. Not today in modern China where is all about enticing Westerners to spend big. The native Chinese are remotely interested in Taoism. Christianity is in fact a rising religion in that country.

 

https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/China-s-Christians-keep-the-faith-rattling-the-country-s-leaders

 

We know more than them as a matter of fact.

[EmeraldHead]

15 minutes ago, Gerard said:

Christianity is in fact a rising religion in that country.

Maybe because they don't promote reincarnation in China : )))

[freeform]

14 hours ago, Mig said:

I don't see their temples or congregations in low income areas or impoverished neighborhoods.

 

I can tell you that (at least in alchemical Daoism) - ‘temples’, in modern times do not represent it in any way. You’re more likely to find these groups at dawn in parks or at the teacher’s house - than in any temples.

[lrn2livorlive2lrn]

For what it’s worth I think laozi and zhuangzi would be very disapointed to be associated with anything like this. maybe”daoist” is a better term for modern organized and religious groups but in my understanding it represents the whole gamut . In my head using the simple broad brush term, daoist, to pose this question is..not the best. 

[Master Logray]

18 hours ago, Mig said:

One thing, I keep noticing is that Daoism as well as other religious groups, they tend to lean where the money is. I don't see their temples or congregations in low income areas or impoverished neighborhoods. It seems in the past Daoists where in full battle against buddhists for the sake of power. Am I wrong or can you give examples of the contrary?

 

It is not true.  In Hong Kong and Taiwan there are temples everywhere.  Actually no temple is built in well-off areas except some historical ones.  Hong Kong has many temple on upper stories of tall buildings. plus very small temples.  Taiwan has more magnificent temples.  China Taoist temples are now flourishing with money.  They make a lot of money and the government subsidize for tourist sake.  Temple is part of the "industries".  China is all internal tourists. 

 

If you mean temples like Buddhist monasteries, have Taoist residing, then they are very rare.   One of the main reasons is that ZhengYi Taoist is actually the majority.  They can eat meat, raise family and live as normal persons.  So living quarters is not that necessary.  Cultivators don't have temple.

 

[Master Logray]

11 minutes ago, lrn2livorlive2lrn said:

For what it’s worth I think laozi and zhuangzi would be very disapointed to be associated with anything like this. maybe”daoist” is a better term for modern organized and religious groups but in my understanding it represents the whole gamut . In my head using the simple broad brush term, daoist, to pose this question is..not the best. 

 

Taoism is probably the most diverse and immersive religion? in the world.  There are so many diverse arms and many of the Taoist beliefs and practices immerse into every aspect of Chinese societies, namely fortune telling like Feng Shui, martial arts like Taichi, Chinese medicine, Food Therapy among others   All these are followed by Buddhist, Christian, Muslims. There are Taichi courses in  Christian church as well. 

[lrn2livorlive2lrn]

26 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

Taoism is probably the most diverse and immersive religion? in the world.  There are so many diverse arms and many of the Taoist beliefs and practices immerse into every aspect of Chinese societies, namely fortune telling like Feng Shui, martial arts like Taichi, Chinese medicine, Food Therapy among others   All these are followed by Buddhist, Christian, Muslims. There are Taichi courses in  Christian church as well. 

I agree with what you’re saying. I’m not trying to discredit any of the practices under the umbrella. I’m saying laozi and zhuangzi would not like to be associated with political/religious power struggles and some idea of only temples for the rich.

 

I’m saying this question should be much more specific and wish I could’ve wrote what you did instead of “ I believe it represents the whole gamut”. Whose  perspective under such a broad group are we trying to get?? What one group does  does not represent the whole.

Edited October 4, 2020 by lrn2livorlive2lrn

[Master Logray]

13 minutes ago, lrn2livorlive2lrn said:

I agree with what you’re saying. I’m not trying to discredit any of the practices under the umbrella. I’m saying laozi and zhuangzi would not like to be associated with political/religious power struggles and some idea of only temples for the rich.

 

 

The All True (QuanJan) faction, other than ZhengYi, is the largest in China. They are the religious and cultivation faction. Their founder Wang was invited to palace of the Jin Dynasty to preach and teach Taoism.   Don't forget at that time the Jin occupied some Chinese soil and was the arch enemy. 

 

Wang's disciple Qiu, who is a very important figure in Taoism and cultivation, not only visited the Jin court, received emperor's commendations, helped in pacifying rebellions.  And the most notable event was he traveled to the west to personally meet with Genghis Khan, promoting Taoism in the Mongolian empire.  When Mongols invaded China, he mediated and saved life of many people.  Genghis Kan highly respected him and named him as "Immortal" and made him the head of all Taoists within the Mongolian empire (not only China).   He died 3 days before Genghis Khan did.  These are true historical events happened around AD1160-1227.

 

These 2 founders are very important in cultivation teachings.   But their lives are highly political. 

 

[silent thunder]

Master Wang described three types of Daoist practioner. 

 

Mountain Daoist:  Cultivation is full time, lives in seclusion, minimal to no socializing on any regular basis.

 

Temple Daoist:  Cultivation is full or part time, socializing daily/regularly within the context of temple activities.  Cultivation is balanced with social/temple responsibilities.

 

Family Daoist:  Part time cultivation when duties of daily life and family/social obligations permit.

[lrn2livorlive2lrn]

I appreciate what your saying  but  I’m only commenting in hopes that original poster will not look at these things they’re talking about as a representation of all under the umbrella daoist  or  in some way to write off the whole. I don’t want to hijack this thread. I’m not saying I’m not somehow misguided, if you want to PM me about this I’m “all ears”, thanks

[Master Logray]

7 minutes ago, lrn2livorlive2lrn said:

I appreciate what your saying  but  I’m only commenting in hopes that original poster will not look at these things they’re talking about as a representation of all under the umbrella daoist  or  in some way to write off the whole. I don’t want to hijack this thread. I’m not saying I’m not somehow misguided, if you want to PM me about this I’m “all ears”, thanks

 

I don't mind what you say.  Just expressing my opinion which is Taoist is heavily involved in money, politics and power struggle.   And clarify they have plenty of temples in low income areas.   If you don't intend to write off the whole, then I do it for you.  My teacher who is a famous cultivator, said the Taoist is corrupt and not as pious as Buddhist monks.

 

One further info.  In China temples can be manned by paid professionals who are not Taoist but put on the "uniforms". 

[JohnC]

18 hours ago, Gerard said:

Maybe in the 1600s. Not today in modern China where is all about enticing Westerners to spend big. The native Chinese are remotely interested in Taoism. Christianity is in fact a rising religion in that country.

 

https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/China-s-Christians-keep-the-faith-rattling-the-country-s-leaders

 

We know more than them as a matter of fact.

How China monetizes them now as McMonasteries, is different than their original intent.

[Mig]

5 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

It is not true.  In Hong Kong and Taiwan there are temples everywhere.  Actually no temple is built in well-off areas except some historical ones.  Hong Kong has many temple on upper stories of tall buildings. plus very small temples.  Taiwan has more magnificent temples.  China Taoist temples are now flourishing with money.  They make a lot of money and the government subsidize for tourist sake.  Temple is part of the "industries".  China is all internal tourists. 

 

If you mean temples like Buddhist monasteries, have Taoist residing, then they are very rare.   One of the main reasons is that ZhengYi Taoist is actually the majority.  They can eat meat, raise family and live as normal persons.  So living quarters is not that necessary.  Cultivators don't have temple.

 

 

What about those in western countries, i.e. USA, Europe or others places around the world?

[Master Logray]

17 hours ago, Mig said:

 

What about those in western countries, i.e. USA, Europe or others places around the world?

 

I have no idea.  But I suppose they are confined to China towns.  Their deities are totally unknown in western countries.  Who would go to worship there?   Furthermore Taoist don't really preach like other religions.  They are rather passive and mostly serve the communities (not free).

[Mig]

5 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

I have no idea.  But I suppose they are confined to China towns.  Their deities are totally unknown in western countries.  Who would go to worship there?   Furthermore Taoist don't really preach like other religions.  They are rather passive and mostly serve the communities (not free).

 

It made me think about this:

 

https://www.taoist.org/50years/

 

[Mig]

Just like other proselytizing religious movement, churches or temples, I have not seeing them in impoverished areas, always where the money is, well off areas. In Taiwan I guess is a different story because of the social strata and community cohesion. I guess during Chinese history there were power struggles between Daoists and Buddhist in the imperial court but not sure their involvement in impoverished areas of the empire.

[Rara]

Hi Mig, I swear you asked this same question a year or two ago.

 

From what I know, no, not really. Scammers on the other hand...

[dwai]

Typically temples are built by patrons (historically nobility and royalty) — and patrons usually have money. They live in neighborhoods where there is money. Ergo, temples usually are built in well-to-do neighborhoods. 
 

[Rara]

6 hours ago, dwai said:

Typically temples are built by patrons (historically nobility and royalty) — and patrons usually have money. They live in neighborhoods where there is money. Ergo, temples usually are built in well-to-do neighborhoods. 
 

 

Also, it's down to supply and demand. There is no real demand for Daoist temples compared to any if the 6 major world religions.

[Master Logray]

15 hours ago, Mig said:

Just like other proselytizing religious movement, churches or temples, I have not seeing them in impoverished areas, always where the money is, well off areas. In Taiwan I guess is a different story because of the social strata and community cohesion. I guess during Chinese history there were power struggles between Daoists and Buddhist in the imperial court but not sure their involvement in impoverished areas of the empire.

 

Temples/Churches can be easily few hundred years old.  What was the original situation on the choice of location, no one knows. 100 years ago a place can be impoverished, but it can be city centre now, 20 years later the place could be a slum.

 

You are seeing the temples that SURVIVED!  

 

Don't forget religion is about supernatural.  Temples oftenly develop from small shrines, small shrines develop from a piece of rock or a tree.  There is always a divine/supernatural element in the development of a temple.