Luxin Posted October 8, 2020 (edited) Luxin deleted Edited November 21, 2020 by Luxin I have moved on.... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted October 8, 2020 That's right...Atman is not the Soul. Atman is Pure Objectless Consciousness that powers/illuminates all jivas. Because it is the source of Being, it is called the Self (Atman). It is also known as Brahman (the Expanding Principal). 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
old3bob Posted October 8, 2020 (edited) there is the word atma and there is the word Atman, there is the word Brahma and the word Brahman. (also Brahmin) Westerners may get such words and meanings mixed up which is no major revelation nor a revelation about certain westerners to brag about...btw. the red ink is overblown and in a sense you did share your "affirmation" that you said you could not share? Edited October 8, 2020 by old3bob 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted October 8, 2020 10 minutes ago, old3bob said: there is the word atma and there is the word Atman, there is the word Brahma and the word Brahman. (also Brahmin) us westerners may get such mixed up which is no major revelation nor a revelation about certain westerners to brag about...btw. the red ink is overblown Actually, Atma and Atman are the same word, used varyingly. In the Upanishadic mahavakya from Mandukya Upanishad, you will find the statement 'Ayam Atma Brahma'. This means this "Atman is verily that Brahman". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahāvākyas Quote सर्वं ह्येतद् ब्रह्मायमात्मा ब्रह्म सोऽयमात्मा चतुष्पात् ॥ २ ॥sarvaM hyetad brahmAyamAtmA brahma so.ayamAtmA chatuShpAt[web 9][web 10] sarvam hyetad - everything here,[19] the Whole,[18] all this[web 11] hi - (is) certainly brahma - Brahman ayam - this[web 12] ātmā - Atman, self, essence brahma - Brahman sah ayam atman - "this very atman"[19] chatuShpAt - "has four aspects"[19] While translations tend to separate the sentence in separate parts, Olivelle's translation uses various words in adjunct sets of meaning: सर्वं ह्येतद् ब्रह्मा sarvam hyetad brahma - "this brahman is the Whole" ब्रह्मायमात्मा brahma ayam atma - "brahman is ātman" ब्रह्म सोऽयमात्मा brahman sah ayam atman - "brahman is this (very) self" 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
old3bob Posted October 8, 2020 (edited) Not exactly : "in Hindu scriptures, atman sometimes refers to the ego-personality, and its meaning must be determined according to context" From 'Dancing with Siva' Lexicon, page 689. Apparently small and capitals letters in English translations may be part of the context but I'm that not up on same. We can also add the word Paramatman for further clarification on meanings. Edited October 8, 2020 by old3bob 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted October 8, 2020 11 minutes ago, old3bob said: Not exactly : "in Hindu scriptures, atman sometimes refers to the ego-personality, and its meaning must be determined according to context" From 'Dancing with Siva' Lexicon, page 689. Apparently small and capitals letters in English translations may be part of the context but I'm that not up on same. We can also add the word Paramatman for further clarification on meanings. Typically if you want to refer to the limited "soul", then the right term is jīvātmā. But further on in Advaita understanding, Jiva and Atman are realized as being non-different (brahma satyam jagat mithya, jiva brahmaiva naparah). 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
old3bob Posted October 8, 2020 btw, maybe this should be moved to the Hindu forum? typically it is also said to look at the context used in Hindu scriptures. And of course we could spend lifetimes in debate going over the differences between the major branches and vast numbers of sects in Hinduism and their meanings - which do not agree with each other on all points, although respectfully so compared to most other religions... 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted October 8, 2020 7 hours ago, Luxin said: Atman is not the Soul. Atman is only one thing called variously the Self, Spirit, Spiritual Consciousness, and in the poetry of Rumi and Kabir, the Beloved. Atman is also symbolized by the Swan (Skt. Hansa or Hamsa). In Hinduism and Jainism, the Soul is called Jiva. The Soul or Jiva may attain to eternal life in certain circumstances. The Romans called the Soul a "Genius", and the Greeks called it a "Daimon." Both the Romans and the Greeks called them "tutelary deities", tutelary meaning protective; I add to that that Eternal Souls are also instructive. There wasn't a single reference to "Atman is not the Soul" on the internet; now there is one. ... Sorry .... 2nd hit in the index page of a search ' Atman is not the soul ? ' " Dec 12, 2017 — (Jeeva) Atman is referred to in English as the Spirit. This is the one that takes birth again and again, not the soul; and ...: and 7th ; " It is vaguely similar to the Western concept of the soul, as each person “possesses” or partakes of the atman, but it differs from a soul in that the atman is not ... Your problem might be that you are comparing Hindu concept of ' Atman ' with the western concept of the 'soul' .... Westerners themselves cant even agree on what soul actually is . Of course , no such arguments exist in Hinduism . 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Luxin Posted October 9, 2020 (edited) Luxin says, "I deleted this post...." Edited October 19, 2020 by Luxin post superseded Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
old3bob Posted October 9, 2020 (edited) Hello Luxin, There are no words in any language (including a very powerful and deep energetic Sanskrit) that can prove the Self to anyone; anyway words are used to point to and also can help one reach the threshold boundary. Thus a discussion on words and of words (or concepts) is or may be interesting and informative to a point but again are not an end all or proof or disproof that can nail down that which they point to or echo. So in that sense I suggest that you might want to re-evaluate trying nail down the word Atman. Btw. one can find differing maps so to speak and or summations' (that quick internet search's won't cover) that the different sects of Hinduism have as to the full meaning regarding the terms of soul and Atman, thus what is agreed and disagreed upon across their many different schools. Edited October 10, 2020 by old3bob 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
old3bob Posted October 10, 2020 (edited) Hello Nungali, When you say, "Of course , no such arguments exist in Hinduism." What exactly do you? I ask because (and to begin with) in Hinduism we also hear the terms dualism, qualified non-dualism, and non-dualism and only experts on Hinduism and God know how many sects there are related to schools that posit those terms in general and also in particular ways per their schools, thus their different teachings on how the soul stands in relation to Supreme Being. Edited October 10, 2020 by old3bob 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Luxin Posted October 10, 2020 (edited) Luxin says, "Post moved to Post No. 1 in new thread, Goddess Sarasvati Examines an Alleged Reality" Edited October 11, 2020 by Luxin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted October 10, 2020 6 hours ago, old3bob said: Hello Nungali, When you say, "Of course , no such arguments exist in Hinduism." What exactly do you? I ask because (and to begin with) in Hinduism we also hear the terms dualism, qualified non-dualism, and non-dualism and only experts on Hinduism and God know how many sects there are related to schools that posit those terms in general and also in particular ways per their schools, thus their different teachings on how the soul stands in relation to Supreme Being. Indeed ! (I was being sarcastic .) 1 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
old3bob Posted October 10, 2020 Btw. I'd say Dwai is a very excellent resource of first hand information on Hinduism per his personal life and background, while I only consider myself a very fortunate outsider who was given a visitor's pass into Hinduism for some limited although important experiences. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
old3bob Posted October 11, 2020 (edited) 9 hours ago, Luxin said: Angel old3bob, I understand and respect that all religious human beings (angels) value their beliefs and cherish their religions. However, in my examinations of most belief systems I cherish only one thing above everything in the Universe, and that is Truth. I scan for the Truth alone, and do not have any significant interest in what anyone actually believes. I only believe in what is true if I can prove it is true through repeated examination and comparison across religions/philosophies. I also believe in my own capacity to identify Truth. Truth cannot be taught; it's something that a person either has the capacity to identify or not. This capacity, which is mostly intuition (i.e. direct apprehension without reason) when studying assumed spiritual truths, is a gift much like the gift of musical talent is a gift of God. I have no significant interest in religions etc. BECAUSE they are belief systems. When I talk about Hinduism's terms I'm detached from whatever Hindus think or believe, and I'm always thinking about ALL religions at the same time, and all the terms for the same thing (e.g. soul-jiva-genius-daimon). My only real interest is in those possibly true concepts that have significance across a number of religions. I don't say this because I'm glorifying myself, and I NEVER say anything that I haven't proven to be true, with one exception some years ago because I was ignorant regarding something. I'm not important -- none of us is important. Only the Truth, and all the Virtues that accompany it, are important. I hope you're having a pleasant day, and thank you for your feedback. Sat shree akaal (Sikh greeting, Truth is eternal). jiva all over except in Atman was my concept, but that might be changing, I don't know yet. Atman being the Sun (Self, Spiritual Consciousness) is correct. Have you studied some of the major Upanishads? They are not really religious beliefs per-se, more like directly inspired and given witness teachings from Hinduisms Self Realized Rishi's ! Granted that much of their context is from a whole different world and time of long ago India...(and much in the way of renunciates) so that has to be taken into consideration yet their truths and truth still brilliantly shine and can be applied universally in any age to help with the questions of and answers for mankind ! If we become very advanced in perception in a non-regular way, where is Truth not? What real illusion or the calling of Maya illusion can be? The great and various Yoga's proven over thousands of years are spiritually deep, and more than just passing, changing or man-made. Sanatana Dharma the eternal is the fuller name for Hinduism ! Om Shanti Edited October 11, 2020 by old3bob 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Luxin Posted October 11, 2020 (edited) Luxin says, "Post moved to new thread, Goddess Sarasvati Examines an Alleged Reality" Edited October 11, 2020 by Luxin finishing Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
old3bob Posted October 11, 2020 Why do you want an "argument" about Atman or a " yes or no" answer about a concept? We can share this or that along these lines and people can take it or leave it. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted October 11, 2020 (edited) Desires fall and rise... Awareness abides. Desire to know. to teach. to acquire. or release. to know The Truth to denounce through proof. Local mind slides through notions those oceans of knowledge like Life is some college clothing in concepts, and claiming truths unremittent and dripping with blaming seeking through conception through commiseration an abstinence from obliteration. seeking is seeking not finding while being is thee'ing one's beatification another's reprobation and all the while Awareness abides... A recent development that seemingly fosters contentment in local awareness and calms the waters of mind... abiding in presence and not needing to prop up notions as right or wrong, weak or strong. Awareness influences local mind it seems... and concepts may be listened to, or read and considered without instantly feeling a pull to accept or reject. Simple abidance in the presence of... consideration without a need for worship or demonization. Edited October 11, 2020 by silent thunder changed a word 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
old3bob Posted October 11, 2020 "There but for the grace of God go I" 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted October 11, 2020 9 hours ago, Luxin said: Luxin says, "Post moved to new thread, Goddess Sarasvati Examines an Alleged Reality" Nungali asks why do that ? ? ? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Damla Posted October 17, 2020 (edited) . Edited November 2, 2020 by Damla Account closing 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
