How do you get to the Truth

[thelerner]

How do you get to the truth? 

 

I guess it starts with self knowledge.  Knowing what your bias's, prejudices, preconditioning, filters are and taking care to balance them out.

 

Before the facts, finding good sources; on both sides, as well as dispassionate non-sided.  Digging deep, giving more credence to experts not mouth pieces, books not pop articles.  Even when something seems slam bang, one sided, you need to know the other side, if no other reason then to be able to communicate with them. 

 

I find humans to be more rationalizing then rational, so you beyond facts you need to know and respect the emotional entanglements.   Way too often people play the game of comparing our best against their worst.  It's something to be avoided.  We need to talk to the other side, get opinions face to face, preferable without confrontation.  When people open up, you learn, when people shout, you don't.

 

Is coming at things totally fresh, like an alien the best way to the truth?  Each term,  explained and quantified logically.  That helps but like Spocks problem on Star Trek, the most logical answer is not always the best one.  Because humans aren't logical.  We need a blend, a compromise to find the truths we can live with.

 

What do you think? 

Can you handle the Truth?  Does it even begin w/ a capital T?

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, thelerner said:

Can you handle the Truth?  Does it even begin w/ a capital T?

 

Hi Michael,

 

What truth?

 

 

 

- Anand

 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2020 by Limahong
Enhancement

[welkin]

 

1 hour ago, thelerner said:

How do you get to the truth? 

 

I guess it starts with self knowledge.  Knowing what your bias's, prejudices, preconditioning, filters are and taking care to balance them out.

 

Before the facts, finding good sources; on both sides, as well as dispassionate non-sided.  Digging deep, giving more credence to experts not mouth pieces, books not pop articles.  Even when something seems slam bang, one sided, you need to know the other side, if no other reason then to be able to communicate with them. 

 

I find humans to be more rationalizing then rational, so you beyond facts you need to know and respect the emotional entanglements.   Way too often people play the game of comparing our best against their worst.  It's something to be avoided.  We need to talk to the other side, get opinions face to face, preferable without confrontation.  When people open up, you learn, when people shout, you don't.

 

Is coming at things totally fresh, like an alien the best way to the truth?  Each term,  explained and quantified logically.  That helps but like Spocks problem on Star Trek, the most logical answer is not always the best one.  Because humans aren't logical.  We need a blend, a compromise to find the truths we can live with.

 

What do you think? 

Can you handle the Truth?  Does it even begin w/ a capital T?

 

There is no such thing as truth. It is constructed as something to find out as a result of a falsehood or lie. There is only what is. So if you're trying to find out what is, then its best not to try to find the truth or the falsehood. Unfortunately the truth, is everything that has be constructed for us to research and find, as well as the falsehoods. To find what is, it's necessary to bypass the 'truth'. Once you find out what is, then you can identify the falsehood, and therefore the truth of the falsehood.

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi Michael,

 

What truth?

 

 

 

- Anand

 

 

 

 

 

trust  Limi  to put a  different spin on things  .

[Nungali]

55 minutes ago, welkin said:

 

 

There is no such thing as truth. It is constructed as something to find out as a result of a falsehood or lie. There is only what is. So if you're trying to find out what is, then its best not to try to find the truth or the falsehood. Unfortunately the truth, is everything that has be constructed for us to research and find, as well as the falsehoods. To find what is, it's necessary to bypass the 'truth'. Once you find out what is, then you can identify the falsehood, and therefore the truth of the falsehood.

 

 

What was  that !  

 

I tried to make sense of it ... I really did  !  It seems one of the most  internally contradictory  confused things I have read . Perhaps one of the people that 'liked' it can explain it to me  ?

 

 

 

 

[welkin]

So i respond, the oppressor gets what he wants. believing he is stirring up emotions. Even if it didn't stir up emotions, the response is all it took for the fiend to feed. It didn't matter what truth lies on the other side of the conversation, the only thing that matters are the truths that the fiend has created for himself out of what he has chosen to manifest, which is unfortunately not tied to any actual beliefs or values.

 

One could assume a disingenuous response or claim considering his obviously high self belief of intelligence and comprehension, yet chooses to speak without putting the effort of thinking. If the person genuinely has the inability to think or at the very least imagination to try and understand the idea, then perhaps it's not even worth answering their question.

 

On the other hand, if the person is very capable of interpreting the ideas presented, but chooses to stir up conflict for their own selfish benefit whether personal or in a grander scheme of things, then the person is a danger to everyone. They feed off the chaos.

 

In either case, they are a virus that only spreads when given attention. Their existence only manifested out of something else that was already living.

 

Perhaps it is all related. Their self belief and consciousness came from the very truth I said to avoid finding. And so they have found their truth, and living on that truth that stemmed out of a lie.

 

 

[Nungali]

Well, that didnt clear things up much !

[welkin]

neither has wit

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, welkin said:

So i respond, the oppressor gets what he wants. believing he is stirring up emotions. Even if it didn't stir up emotions, the response is all it took for the fiend to feed. It didn't matter what truth lies on the other side of the conversation, the only thing that matters are the truths that the fiend has created for himself out of what he has chosen to manifest, which is unfortunately not tied to any actual beliefs or values.

 

One could assume a disingenuous response or claim considering his obviously high self belief of intelligence and comprehension, yet chooses to speak without putting the effort of thinking. If the person genuinely has the inability to think or at the very least imagination to try and understand the idea, then perhaps it's not even worth answering their question.

 

On the other hand, if the person is very capable of interpreting the ideas presented, but chooses to stir up conflict for their own selfish benefit whether personal or in a grander scheme of things, then the person is a danger to everyone. They feed off the chaos.

 

In either case, they are a virus that only spreads when given attention. Their existence only manifested out of something else that was already living.

 

Perhaps it is all related. Their self belief and consciousness came from the very truth I said to avoid finding. And so they have found their truth, and living on that truth that stemmed out of a lie.

 

 

 

 

I wonder who you are talking about  ?  

 

I suppose you think the 'no insult ' rule  only applies if you put the  actual name of the target of your insult in the post  ?

[Mithras]

8 hours ago, Nungali said:

Well, that didnt clear things up much !

Haha, I feel a bit the same. I can explain welkin's first post from my POV though. I tend to have a bad habit of lecturing (sorry for the times I've done in the past, I keep it to my ppd now) so I'll try to keep things short to my personal experience.

One day I am full of knowledge, and another day I am full of ignorance. Where has knowledge gone and ignorance appeared? One can point to the neuron behavior and so on, how the brain store memory etc, and how physical laws provide a basis for all of this but even physical laws eventually fade away. Science is beginning to touch on this with the heat death of the universe, but personally I didn't arrive at the conclusion through scientific theory. So basically the question remains that where do all these things go? Happiness, sorrow, laws, movement, etc. They all seem to arise and disappear, and even that which does appear seems to be like a heavily colored canvas, which lacks any substantiality. Just like how a fruit painted in a picture, cannot be tasted or grasped.

Ex: perception of time is based on past, present and future but all things are observed in the present so how can there be past or future?

Yada yada yada and bam. All that can remain is the undifferentiated and unattributed self, in which all things can momentarily arise and disappear as if they have never arisen. Just as how many differently shape bracelets can appear out of the same gold. Yet the gold remains unchanged. For me even knowing this isn't really worth anything, as the sage and the fool are of no difference. The self does not distinguish between the one who knows and the one who doesn't. Similarly, the villain and the hero are of the same merit, for when the truth remains unchanged, what wrong deed or even good deed could have been committed? What is gained from purity that is only obtained momentarily and then lost? What is lost from impurity or sin, that seems to make one lose greatly yet disappears easily. What is even gained from knowing the truth or liberation? Samsara itself is but a play, whether it happens or not do not concern me or anyone, whether they seem to believe it or not. All these things are like dream objects, they do not obtain or lose anything. It is a mirage, without substance though appearing to be solid. Hence all that remains is the truth, which cannot be perceived as an object, but simply is.

sidenote/this might be easier to understand: I would feel that getting to the Truth has to do with more of the destruction of knowledge than the obtaining of it. Knowing what the truth is, really isn't more significant from not knowing what the truth is, but it at least allows for one to establish clear vision and sort things out. Seeing clearly means looking past personal emotions/attachments. When someone starts to hear about the world is unreal yada yada it becomes a lot easier to see clearly or enquire. This can be mistake for detachment a lot of times but it isn't really necessary for this process, just indifference or constant enquiry into the personal experience. Even those things aren't necessary, for even worms can attain "liberated". That point aside, at some point knowledge starts to get destroyed faster and faster, regardless of what you do. When all knowledge is finally destroyed, that is liberation/enlightenment. Though enlightenment itself is like a change to an object in a dream.

Edited October 12, 2020 by Mithras
Felt that I had to add more stuff, then felt like going back and editing it again... You guys know how it goes

[Nungali]

Wow !  You got all that from what Welkin wrote  !     
 

 

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

Wow !  You got all that from what Welkin wrote  !   

 

 

 

[idiot_stimpy]

Suffering so deep it cuts you to the bone. 

 

When one suffers so terribly, then they start asking questions. What is real an unreal.

 

Sometimes suffering can be a blessing as it sets us free.

[Limahong]

No pain ~ no gain? 

[idiot_stimpy]

2 hours ago, Limahong said:

No pain ~ no gain? 

 

Nothing is given for free.

 

But the ever present being is not given or taken, therefore cannot be bought or sold.

[Mithras]

8 hours ago, Nungali said:

Wow !  You got all that from what Welkin wrote  !     
 

 

Hehe I probably added a lot on my own. Sorry sorry bad habit
 

 

5 hours ago, idiot_stimpy said:

Suffering so deep it cuts you to the bone. 

 

When one suffers so terribly, then they start asking questions. What is real an unreal.

 

Sometimes suffering can be a blessing as it sets us free.

Yeah... that's how it tends to be. It's kind of hard to want to see past objects if they're giving you deep satisfaction.

On another note though there are some who say liberation/getting to the truth is as easy as picking up a piece of straw and then others who say it is very difficult, extending into heavy effort over multiple lifetimes. I don't remember where I saw this, but I read somewhere that a lot of times one doesn't start looking till they've cultivated dispassion over multiple lifetimes. What's your guy's feel on the dynamic of effort involved?

[RiverSnake]

3rd eye cultivation

[Limahong]

2 hours ago, Mithras said:

What's your guy's feel on the dynamic of effort involved?

 

Hi Mithras,

 

Try and embrace critical realism philosophically...

 

"Critical Realism (CR) is a branch of philosophy that distinguishes between the 'real' world and the 'observable' world. The 'real' cannot be observed and exists independent from human perceptions, theories, and constructions. The world as we know and understand it is constructed from our perspectives and experiences, through what is 'observable'. Thus, according to critical realists, unobservable structures cause observable events and the social world can be understood only if people understand the structures that generate events. We can use the analogy of a scientist to understand some core tenets of CR. When a scientist conducts an experiment, they establish the conditions to create the experiment and they observe the results (events). However, the results are caused by underlying theoretical mechanisms, structures and laws that they cannot observe (unobservable structures)."

(University of Warwick ~ UK)

 

      

 

2 hours ago, Mithras said:

It's kind of hard to want to see past objects if they're giving you deep satisfaction.

 

- Anand

 

Edited October 12, 2020 by Limahong
Enhancement

[Mithras]

38 minutes ago, Limahong said:

"Critical Realism (CR) is a branch of philosophy that distinguishes between the 'real' world and the 'observable' world. The 'real' cannot be observed and exists independent from human perceptions, theories, and constructions. The world as we know and understand it is constructed from our perspectives and experiences, through what is 'observable'. Thus, according to critical realists, unobservable structures cause observable events and the social world can be understood only if people understand the structures that generate events. We can use the analogy of a scientist to understand some core tenets of CR. When a scientist conducts an experiment, they establish the conditions to create the experiment and they observe the results (events). However, the results are caused by underlying theoretical mechanisms, structures and laws that they cannot observe (unobservable structures)."

(University of Warwick ~ UK)

Cool idea. I'd look it up more if I wasn't so lazy. Though It reminds me of an idea that everything that is observed isn't real, it is a construct. An example being colors don't really exist, we are just made to see colors, etc

Edited October 12, 2020 by Mithras

[welkin]

To find truth, you don't balance or counterbalance. You don't go to one end of the extreme or the other without the assistance of the opposite. You also don't find a middle point, because the middle point doesn't exist. It's an allusion as a result of the previously created false. Instead you assist each side by understanding and experiencing each while maintaining the opposite, therefore finding the "truth" or the "Fact".

 

-___________________________-___________________________-

 

 

<-___________________________<--->-<--->___________________________->

Edited October 13, 2020 by welkin

[welkin]

You start at any point of the circle or sphere. Then you go in any direction until you reach the edge. Your next decision is whether you go along the edge to continue drawing it out with higher risks because all of the edges are unknown and with less possibility of going back from where you started. Or, you go back in the same direction from where you started and go in the opposite direction to reach the edge. The goal however isn't to know the edge or to every part inside the circle/sphere. The goal is to find the the middle point, so that you can find or create the next circle/sphere.

[thelerner]

hmnn, maybe if someone asks about getting to the truth,

we should ask- Truth about what?

 

Often the wisest listen closely enough to find the question, behind the question.  Not what the persons asks, but what they are really looking for.

[old3bob]

one could frame the question  a little differently by asking how do you get an unchanging and indivisible?

A partial analogy: splitting hairs and atoms can go on and on...yet with an implosion instead of a chopping in half over and over again - such splitting ends.

Edited October 15, 2020 by old3bob

[welkin]

Make a dent in this reality. One step closer...

 

No dent, regurgitation.

 

When will no dent be needed, when enough dents have been made. Until then, no dent no truth.

Edited October 15, 2020 by welkin

[welkin]

is truth really being sought after? More than likely probably not