7 Precious Metals

[Mercurial]

Hi, maybe someone who reads this is familiar with an already posted topic? I am just looking for dialogue on the 7.

 

[thelerner]

Hi Mercurial, what a specific inquiry.  For some reason when I think of 7 metals I think of Tibetan Bells.  They're reputed to be made of 5 or 7 metals, mixed specially to get the unique round sound.  Course that probably has nothing to do with dialogue on the 7.  You may want to explain what you mean by the 7 metals.  Welcome to the board.

 

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[Nungali]

On 17/10/2020 at 11:55 AM, Mercurial said:

Hi, maybe someone who reads this is familiar with an already posted topic? I am just looking for dialogue on the 7.

 

 

I am familiar with the subject but dont recall  a thread on it .  It has been mentioned in passing in some threads on alchemy and  Tibetan ritual objects  .... probably by me , although I am sure  some others around here are familiar with the subject ( that is, if they are still here) .

 

What aspects 

of the 7 metals do you want to start dialogue on ? For a start are you looking at the Eastern tradition or the Western ?

 

I dont do much of this any more on a practical level ,  my favourite metal to play with is  bismuth   (one atomic number off lead ) as it is non toxic and has a low melting point and after a bit of practice and simple tools you can extract rather wonderful crystals from it in its molten  state ;

 

 

 

For clarity ;

 

On 22/10/2020 at 4:13 AM, thelerner said:

Hi Mercurial, what a specific inquiry.  For some reason when I think of 7 metals I think of Tibetan Bells.  They're reputed to be made of 5 or 7 metals, mixed specially to get the unique round sound.  Course that probably has nothing to do with dialogue on the 7.  You may want to explain what you mean by the 7 metals. 

 

 

A metal is assigned to each planet ... its very basic magical correspondence  .

 

Some Tibetan ritual objects were made of a mix of 7 metals. That would be a 'planetary mix. When 5 metals it could be an elemental mix  or maybe they were just short of  2   .  They often 'cheat' and substitute , nowadays the most common  ingredient is a mix called 'white metal' , who knows whats in that ?  Old melted down saucepans and car engine blocks ...  anything .... as long as its  end product is shiny.

 

In western magic  tradition the 7 metal mix is called 'Electrum Magicum' .  In both traditions you start with an alloy of gold and silver, made during an appropriate sun Moon conjunction. next the other planetary metals are added via a smelting process during that planets appropriate aspects , so the whole process can take some time .

 

Paracelsus :

 

"There are seven elementary powers or principles – four lower ones belonging to mortal and changeable things (Sthula sharira, Linga sharira, Prana, and Kama), and a trinity of celestial power (Atma, Buddhi, Manas), which is also called the quinta essentia. The four elements (lower principles) can in no way interfere with the quinta essentia. The heavenly and the hellish power is not obedient to the four elementary powers, but each section stands for itself." (De Mercurio, vol. vi. p. 378)

 

Regarding amounts, various authors have made suggestions ;  Bardon's are the same  ratios as Paracelsus, just increased .

 

Paracelsus;  " ten parts gold, ten parts silver, five parts copper, two parts tin, two parts lead, one part of powdered iron and five of mercury. "  -   obviously its going to be a toxic experiment .

 

But I note one alchemists interesting comment ;  " Thanks to the discovery of other planets in our solar system and our ever increasing knowledge of the Universe, I decided to capture all of this to aid the experimenter into Hermetic’s by adding an eighth metal “bismuth”. This metal can be molded into any shape and take into its self the Electrum Magicum wonderfully."

 

One big problem is that the high melting point of the other metals causes mercury to vaporise  ... nasty !  and worse !

 

" Stage one would be to melt the lead & tin together in a 4oz kiln. Pull out the plug and allow the molten liquid temp to drop down below mercury boiling point between 327 C & 357 C. Warning if the mercury is added at 357 C or above it will vaporize instantaneously and be breathed in or re-condense in the surrounding area. This part of the melting process is best done outside to avoid or reduce the danger to yourself or home. However, at say 345 C the mercury should be added as the kilns temperature is falling lower by the minute. It’s very important to carefully pour the molten liquid metal into a graphite mold, before the melting point of lead is reached.
Stage one is completed with the mercury, lead and tin successfully combined. Second words of warning “Do not under any circumstances” add this alloy directly to molten metal in solid form it will explode! The combined mercury will melt and then boil within seconds not an experiment to be repeated. "

 

[Michael Sternbach]

Hi Nungars

 

Which alchemist suggested adding bismuth to Paracelsus' Electrum Magnum? Is he the very same one who provided that  recipe you shared?

 

The only modern alchemist that comes to mind ascribing a central role to Bismuth is Archarion. Not sure if he has been translated to English.

 

Traditionally sometimes metallic Antimony was seen in a similar light like the seven planetary metals, however - representing planet Earth. And Bismuth is really similar to Antimony - in fact, its name may have been derived from the Arabic name for Antimony (although it should be mentioned that that is not the only theory as to the origin of its name).

 

The recipe you gave is rather interesting. I would suggest using an infrared thermometer for monitoring the changing temperature. And do make sure you attempt this only in a well ventilated place, better yet under a fume hood. Those mercuric fumes are nothing you want to mess with!

[Bindi]

8 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

I am familiar with the subject but dont recall  a thread on it .  It has been mentioned in passing in some threads on alchemy and  Tibetan ritual objects  .... probably by me , although I am sure  some others around here are familiar with the subject ( that is, if they are still here) .

 

What aspects 

of the 7 metals do you want to start dialogue on ? For a start are you looking at the Eastern tradition or the Western ?

 

I dont do much of this any more on a practical level ,  my favourite metal to play with is  bismuth   (one atomic number off lead ) as it is non toxic and has a low melting point and after a bit of practice and simple tools you can extract rather wonderful crystals from it in its molten  state ;

 

 

Awesome! Where can I get some bismuth for my son who loves melting stuff with a propane torch?

 

I was reading this article just yesterday, bismuth is apparently the easiest metal to turn into gold https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-lead-can-be-turned-into-gold/

 

8 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

For clarity ;

 

 

A metal is assigned to each planet ... its very basic magical correspondence  .

 

Some Tibetan ritual objects were made of a mix of 7 metals. That would be a 'planetary mix. When 5 metals it could be an elemental mix  or maybe they were just short of  2   .  They often 'cheat' and substitute , nowadays the most common  ingredient is a mix called 'white metal' , who knows whats in that ?  Old melted down saucepans and car engine blocks ...  anything .... as long as its  end product is shiny.

 

In western magic  tradition the 7 metal mix is called 'Electrum Magicum' .  In both traditions you start with an alloy of gold and silver, made during an appropriate sun Moon conjunction. next the other planetary metals are added via a smelting process during that planets appropriate aspects , so the whole process can take some time .

 

Paracelsus :

 

"There are seven elementary powers or principles – four lower ones belonging to mortal and changeable things (Sthula sharira, Linga sharira, Prana, and Kama), and a trinity of celestial power (Atma, Buddhi, Manas), which is also called the quinta essentia. The four elements (lower principles) can in no way interfere with the quinta essentia. The heavenly and the hellish power is not obedient to the four elementary powers, but each section stands for itself." (De Mercurio, vol. vi. p. 378)

 

Regarding amounts, various authors have made suggestions ;  Bardon's are the same  ratios as Paracelsus, just increased .

 

Paracelsus;  " ten parts gold, ten parts silver, five parts copper, two parts tin, two parts lead, one part of powdered iron and five of mercury. "  -   obviously its going to be a toxic experiment .

 

But I note one alchemists interesting comment ;  " Thanks to the discovery of other planets in our solar system and our ever increasing knowledge of the Universe, I decided to capture all of this to aid the experimenter into Hermetic’s by adding an eighth metal “bismuth”. This metal can be molded into any shape and take into its self the Electrum Magicum wonderfully."

 

One big problem is that the high melting point of the other metals causes mercury to vaporise  ... nasty !  and worse !

 

" Stage one would be to melt the lead & tin together in a 4oz kiln. Pull out the plug and allow the molten liquid temp to drop down below mercury boiling point between 327 C & 357 C. Warning if the mercury is added at 357 C or above it will vaporize instantaneously and be breathed in or re-condense in the surrounding area. This part of the melting process is best done outside to avoid or reduce the danger to yourself or home. However, at say 345 C the mercury should be added as the kilns temperature is falling lower by the minute. It’s very important to carefully pour the molten liquid metal into a graphite mold, before the melting point of lead is reached.
Stage one is completed with the mercury, lead and tin successfully combined. Second words of warning “Do not under any circumstances” add this alloy directly to molten metal in solid form it will explode! The combined mercury will melt and then boil within seconds not an experiment to be repeated. "

 

 

[Nungali]

44 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Awesome! Where can I get some bismuth for my son who loves melting stuff with a propane torch?

 

I was reading this article just yesterday, bismuth is apparently the easiest metal to turn into gold https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-lead-can-be-turned-into-gold/

 

 

 

Look up metal and alloy suppliers . I get mine from  a place in Sydney. I found them on the internet and made a phone call to arrange it and they opened an account for me .  Its  heavy !  To heavy for post . I get it sent by delivery and dropped off at a depot and pick it up from there.

 

You can easily melt it with a propane torch or even on a stove top ( melts at around 280 C. )  in a saucepan ..... if you never want to use that saucepan again , a crucible is better .  You need 99.9 5 pure for a good result .   This will not give a pure result but it might be fun, and offer an insight into what Americans take as medicine   

 

 

 

 

Bismuth is next to lead on the chart and close to arsenic and antimony , all deadly metals , yet bismuth is relatively inert .

 

You will need more than  a  blowtorch to make crystals out of bismuth  .

[Nungali]

20 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

Hi Nungars

 

Sorry, I somehow missed your post and questions .. .    and the citation  

 

 

Quote

 

Which alchemist suggested adding bismuth to Paracelsus' Electrum Magnum? Is he the very same one who provided that  recipe you shared?

 

Karl Ben-Jedi        ( under cover  ? )

 

https://pdfslide.net/documents/how-to-make-electrum-magicum-for-a-magic-mirror.html

 

The addition of outer planets and adding and attributing bismuth is rather  ......  '  unique ' , but being a bismuth fan, it caught my eye .

 

Personally I would not add it .

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

The only modern alchemist that comes to mind ascribing a central role to Bismuth is Archarion. Not sure if he has been translated to English.

 

One can ascribe anything to anything else, what I am interested in is the reason given and its veracity  and the validity of the reasons / arguments  for it . 

 

 

Quote

 

Traditionally sometimes metallic Antimony was seen in a similar light like the seven planetary metals, however - representing planet Earth. And Bismuth is really similar to Antimony - in fact, its name may have been derived from the Arabic name for Antimony (although it should be mentioned that that is not the only theory as to the origin of its name).

 

The recipe you gave is rather interesting. I would suggest using an infrared thermometer for monitoring the changing temperature. And do make sure you attempt this only in a well ventilated place, better yet under a fume hood. Those mercuric fumes are nothing you want to mess with!

 

Not to mention microscopic mercurial 'rain' condensing all throughout your working area !  .

 

remember what happened to Jack Persons when he was experimenting with fulminate of mercury !

 

- he became ' dissolved unto Nuit '  .

 

 

There is Jack ...  under that chair , and under the washing machine , and  on the back wall,  and under the side window and ....

[Michael Sternbach]

4 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Sorry, I somehow missed your post and questions .. .    and the citation  

 

That's okay. It might just be a side effect of your experiments with mercury.

 

4 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Karl Ben-Jedi        ( under cover  ? )

 

https://pdfslide.net/documents/how-to-make-electrum-magicum-for-a-magic-mirror.html

 

Oh, so making a magic mirror is what this is all about. I was thinking alchemy, however, as you know all hermetic sciences/arts are interrelated, and a similar recipe can indeed be found already in Hellenistic alchemy.

 

4 hours ago, Nungali said:

The addition of outer planets and adding and attributing bismuth is rather  ......  '  unique ' , but being a bismuth fan, it caught my eye .

 

Personally I would not add it .

 

Neither would I - the classical seven are doing fine standing on their own. But if you do wish to extend the formula to include a metal representing Uranus, then what about Neptune and Pluto (as well as hypothetical further 'outers')?

 

4 hours ago, Nungali said:

One can ascribe anything to anything else, what I am interested in is the reason given and its veracity  and the validity of the reasons / arguments  for it . 

 

I surely agree to this. Generally speaking, the origin of an information is of little consequence in the occult sciences, what matters is its ongoing viability and applicability. 

 

4 hours ago, Nungali said:

Not to mention microscopic mercurial 'rain' condensing all throughout your working area !  .

 

remember what happened to Jack Persons when he was experimenting with fulminate of mercury !

 

- he became ' dissolved unto Nuit '  .

 

 

There is Jack ...  under that chair , and under the washing machine , and  on the back wall,  and under the side window and ....

 

Too bad Jack ripped himself into pieces that way . Does that make him Jack the Ripper? Anyway... RIP, Jack!

[Nungali]

15 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

That's okay. It might just be a side effect of your experiments with mercury.

 

 

Oh, so making a magic mirror is what this is all about. I was thinking alchemy, however, as you know all hermetic sciences/arts are interrelated, and a similar recipe can indeed be found already in Hellenistic alchemy.

 

 

Neither would I - the classical seven are doing fine standing on their own. But if you do wish to extend the formula to include a metal representing Uranus, then what about Neptune and Pluto (as well as hypothetical further 'outers')?

 

Oh yeah ... I forgot ... please include  2 oz of Plutonium .

 

 

... best do that outside too .

 

 

Quote

 

 

I surely agree to this. Generally speaking, the origin of an information is of little consequence in the occult sciences, what matters is its ongoing viability and applicability. 

 

 

Too bad Jack ripped himself into pieces that way . Does that make him Jack the Ripper? Anyway... RIP, Jack!

 

 

Have you seen the   tv series 'Strange Angel '  ?  I read the book but have not seen any film .

 

 

( IT is 'blocked for viewing in Australia '       )

 

.

 

 

Edited October 24, 2020 by Nungali

[Nungali]

What happened to the  OP  ?

[Limahong]

On 10/23/2020 at 4:01 PM, Nungali said:

Bismuth is next to lead on the chart and close to arsenic and antimony , all deadly metals , yet bismuth is relatively inert .

You will need more than  a  blowtorch to make crystals out of bismuth  .

 

Hi Nun,

 

You are correct. On the Periodic Table ~ the atomic numbers of arsenic, antimony, lead and bismuth and lead are 33, 51, 82 and 83 respectively. They belong to the Nitrogen Group and they form stable compounds.

 

But in chemistry classes ~ we were not taught the use of blowtorches and more.

 

There are difference(s) between a chemist and an alchemist?

 

- Anand

 

[Nungali]

4 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi Nun,

 

You are correct. On the Periodic Table ~ the atomic numbers of arsenic, antimony, lead and bismuth and lead are 33, 51, 82 and 83 respectively. They belong to the Nitrogen Group and they form stable compounds.

 

But in chemistry classes ~ we were not taught the use of blowtorches and more.

 

 

 

Yes you where taught that .... or should have been !   You just made a stand for it so you can have both hands free .

 

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

There are difference(s) between a chemist and an alchemist?

 

Yes.  For a start , a chemist uses a 'blow torch'  - quick violent heat . The application of heat is  more gradual and gentle in alchemy .

 

 

4 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

- Anand

 

 

 

[Limahong]

2 minutes ago, Nungali said:

The application of heat is  more gradual and gentle in alchemy. 

 

Gentle foreplay? 

 

[Nungali]

more a type of  'coaxing'   than 'forcing' .  A main principle  in alchemy is  'circulation'