Dao Bums reflecting on the world

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

 

Would you like to define yin/yang which is non-patriarchal?  

 

 

Yin is black, yang is white, and they can be functionally and usefully viewed as female and male, but this doesn’t extend to yin + yang = all conceivable paired opposites. It is the endless extension of the principle that is patriarchal thinking. 

 

Non-patriarchal yin/yang is how it presents in the subtle energy field, where yin and yang are ‘male’ and ‘female’ polarities, and the subtle mind equivalent of the two physical brain hemispheres, empowering the subtle body. In this sense yang is the ‘hemisphere’ that gives the command to the yin ‘hemisphere’ which carries out the action. 

 

Quote

 

Also on the word 'quick' it is essentially the same word as witch - so hardly patriarchal - or am I missing something?

 

 

I don’t have any issue with the words quick or witch. 
 

 

Edited November 2, 2020 by Bindi

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

 

yin/inert yang/active is another patriarchal assignation as far as I’m concerned. If this is what Daoists believe, then IMO Daoism has not been spared the patriarchal brush. 

 

 

 

In original taoism not molested  invaded  influenced by other modalities there's no such connotations.  There's a comprehensive picture of attributes which processes and phenomena exhibit, and each of them is understood as either "predominantly" or "more" yin or "predominantly" or "more" yang when they are compared to each other. 

 

So "active-inert" can be an alternating process within the same phenomenon.  Besides, there's better and worse translations. ))  "Active" is sometimes translated as "creative" and  "passive" as "receptive," but it's not to say that the receptive yin is not creative (in its characteristic yin way that allows, e.g., for the creation of life in a slow, steady, hidden process of pregnancy of which only the superficial visible part, the growing and sticking-out belly, is yang, while the invisible inner part, the creation of a new human being from scratch to completion, in watery darkness and silence, is yin.)  Nor that the active yang can't mean destructive (destruction is a form of creation -- of chaos out of order.)  There's myriad yin-yang interactions within every phenomenon, and a solid taoist education allows a follower to discern them without making mistakes or jumping to conclusions, while in the absence of such, this unique and magnificent system of cognition can easily get mistaken for some "same old" or other one is already familiar with from elsewhere.    

Edited November 2, 2020 by Taomeow

[Bindi]

21 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

In original taoism not molested  invaded  influenced by other modalities there's no such connotations.  There's a comprehensive picture of attributes which processes and phenomena exhibit, and each of them is understood as either "predominantly" or "more" yin or "predominantly" or "more" yang when they are compared to each other. 

 

So "active-inert" can be an alternating process within the same phenomenon.  Besides, there's better and worse translations. ))  "Active" is sometimes translated as "creative" and  "passive" as "receptive," but it's not to say that the receptive yin is not creative (in its characteristic yin way that allows, e.g., for the creation of life in a slow, steady, hidden process of pregnancy of which only the superficial visible part, the growing and sticking-out belly, is yang, while the invisible inner part, the creation of a new human being from scratch to completion, in watery darkness and silence, is yin.)  Nor that the active yang can't mean destructive (destruction is a form of creation -- of chaos out of order.)  There's myriad yin-yang interactions within every phenomenon, and a solid taoist education allows a follower to discern them without making mistakes or jumping to conclusions, while in the absence of such, this unique and magnificent system of cognition can easily get mistaken for some "same old" or other one is already familiar with from elsewhere.    

 

I admittedly don’t have a solid Taoist education, all I have is a solid subtle energy education which sometimes has remarkable similarities to Taoism/neidan. Taoism/neidan as it is presented reminds me in turn of a very long and intricate game of Chinese whispers. 

[Taomeow]

12 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

I admittedly don’t have a solid Taoist education, all I have is a solid subtle energy education which sometimes has remarkable similarities to Taoism/neidan. Taoism/neidan as it is presented reminds me in turn of a very long and intricate game of Chinese whispers. 

 

In my childhood this game was called simply "broken telephone," and in different countries of the Old World it goes under different names -- "Russian scandal" and "Arabic telephone" and a host of other names.   I was not surprised to learn that "Chinese whispers" is what it's called by native English speakers.  From the Wiki article on the subject:

 

"Historians trace Westerners' use of the word Chinese to denote "confusion" and "incomprehensibility" to the earliest contacts between Europeans and Chinese people in the 17th century, and attribute it to Europeans' inability to understand China's culture and worldview.^[5] Using the phrase "Chinese whispers" suggested a belief that the Chinese language itself is not understandable.^[6] Additionally, Chinese people have historically been stereotyped by Westerners as secretive or inscrutable.^[7] The more fundamental metonymic use of the name of a foreign language to represent a broader class of situations involving foreign languages or difficulty of understanding a language is also captured in older idioms, such as "It's all Greek to me".   

 

I agree it's all Greek to most.  Takes a combo of a spark of interest, curiosity, considerable personal effort in satisfying it, luck, and possibly predestined relationships to discern what those Chinese whispers are about.  Most people who overhear them proceed to demand that they cut it out and speak plain English. Or even assert that they do!  (I don't mean the purely linguistic aspects of course.  One can be fluent in Chinese and the telephone will still spew garbage to them.)  It's been whispering for seven thousand years, give or take, so frustration with the message or its total loss is guaranteed to most who overhear a snippet of it.  No argument there.    

[Sketch]

It was called "Whispering down the lane" in my old neighborhood. 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Sketch said:

It was called "Whispering down the lane" in my old neighborhood. 

 

I call it DaoBumming down the topic. 

[Apech]

I'll start by confessing my complete lack of qualifications for discussing YinYang but what I do have is an old olive tree in my garden.  One side is noticeably straighter, dryer, lighter than the other - which is more rounded, mossy and damp.  There aren't two trees but the tree is only possible because of the 'tension' or interaction between the two sides.  The first is the South facing and the second is the North.  Now you can produce lists of associations like male, active, light and female, passive, dark and such - but I am seeing these as illustrative and not as definitions.  You could say Yang is active ... but then you would have to explain what induced the Yang to act!  So in a sense the Yin is active ... and so on.  To be a real man you have to be quite female

 

 

[Nungali]

22 hours ago, Bindi said:

Yes agreed, the patriarchal comprehension of yin and yang reflects the patriarchal mindset, not the subtle reality. Alive and dead, strong and weak, in Masonic lore good and bad. Ultimately they’re only shortchanging themselves and anyone willing to go along with their concepts without examining them. 

 

 

yin/inert yang/active is another patriarchal assignation as far as I’m concerned. If this is what Daoists believe, then IMO Daoism has not been spared the patriarchal brush. 

 

 

 

Not that I have any  'classical understanding' , I am more of a ' backyard Daoist '  or  ' Dao a la Nungali ' , still I have never considered yin / yang as   alive / dead or  strong / weak   .... what appears here (mislabeled IMO ) as dead and weak  I would more correctly call active and 'receptive'      Eg 'energy' or force in Aikido can be projective or receptive , I dont consider the receptive force 'weaker' .  Dead / alive are just opposites  " alive " has yin / yang qualities ...   I think the problem lies at just looking at , or attempting to look at  duality alone, divorced from triplicity ;  ie. it isnt life / death  but  life (in this example ; taking a 'thing' , life -   birth death ( with life running between them ) .   You dont have a coin  /  heads  . You have a coin  with heads / tails . You dont just have life ... are 'in life' / alive  then die . You are born  .... have life ... then it ends in death . 

 

I am not sure what you meant about your mention of  'like in Masonic lore '  ?   I do agree this other viewpoint is short changing yourself .

 

Then again ... things are pretty different in my backyard .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2020 by Nungali

[Sketch]

I remember my Father teaching me to catch a spiral pass,

shouting "Soft Hands"

as I ran across the field.

 

Masculine can be very yin.

[Taomeow]

Observing the natural world closely is always very helpful when tackling taoist concepts.  As an old folk taoist song goes (which I saw quoted in a Chinese novel, Soul Mountain), 

"What do men cultivate?  A stick!  

What do women cultivate? A hole!"

 

The I Ching's yang and yin lines, "solid" and "broken" (bad translation and/or bad idea to call the yin line that --  "with an opening" doesn't equal "broken" in the case of a woman, a cup, a mouth, an ear, a door, a gateway to all mysteries or anything else receptive and provided with an opening), are 2D schematic pictures of 3D real-life objects.  Male-female distinctions are observational, not ideational.  Ideology and its bias came later.

 

 

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

In my childhood this game was called simply "broken telephone," and in different countries of the Old World it goes under different names -- "Russian scandal" and "Arabic telephone" and a host of other names.   I was not surprised to learn that "Chinese whispers" is what it's called by native English speakers.  From the Wiki article on the subject:

 

"Historians trace Westerners' use of the word Chinese to denote "confusion" and "incomprehensibility" to the earliest contacts between Europeans and Chinese people in the 17th century, and attribute it to Europeans' inability to understand China's culture and worldview.^[5] Using the phrase "Chinese whispers" suggested a belief that the Chinese language itself is not understandable.^[6] Additionally, Chinese people have historically been stereotyped by Westerners as secretive or inscrutable.^[7] The more fundamental metonymic use of the name of a foreign language to represent a broader class of situations involving foreign languages or difficulty of understanding a language is also captured in older idioms, such as "It's all Greek to me".   

 

I agree it's all Greek to most.  Takes a combo of a spark of interest, curiosity, considerable personal effort in satisfying it, luck, and possibly predestined relationships to discern what those Chinese whispers are about.  Most people who overhear them proceed to demand that they cut it out and speak plain English. Or even assert that they do!  (I don't mean the purely linguistic aspects of course.  One can be fluent in Chinese and the telephone will still spew garbage to them.)  It's been whispering for seven thousand years, give or take, so frustration with the message or its total loss is guaranteed to most who overhear a snippet of it.  No argument there.    

 

It works good with ENGLISH whispers as well    ;

 

I .....  (bless her heart ) is susceptible highly  to it . recently she was all in a panic  and came to me distraught :

 

" There is this woman that used to live here and now she has got really rich and has all this money and she is going to buy all three houses, including your wife's " (which is next door to mine ) " ... its like some type of take over m, she is trying to take ocer the community, this should not be allowed and  .... "

 

Me ;   " No . I just talked to my wife about it .  J is the one that is really rich and she moved out and its her house that is one of the one's for sale. The woman that wants to buy ONE of the houses got a small inheritance, she used to live here with her two girls and is very nice , calm, shy and quiet . She was inquiring about how much the three houses where as she is thinking of choosing one . There is no one rich woman that used to live here and is going to start playing monopoly , now, how about a nice cup of tea ? "

 

English whispers   

 

 Special  " Panther Massage " anyone ?

Edited November 2, 2020 by Nungali

[Apech]

This bamboo not yarrow - but hey:

 

 

I came across the idea that the 'broken' yin line is a piece with a join in it, while a yang line a plain piece.  Hence 'broken' actually means joined.

 

This is how I think of it - whether its true or not

 

 

 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

I'll start by confessing my complete lack of qualifications for discussing YinYang but what I do have is an old olive tree in my garden.  One side is noticeably straighter, dryer, lighter than the other - which is more rounded, mossy and damp.  There aren't two trees but the tree is only possible because of the 'tension' or interaction between the two sides.  The first is the South facing and the second is the North.  Now you can produce lists of associations like male, active, light and female, passive, dark and such - but I am seeing these as illustrative and not as definitions.  You could say Yang is active ... but then you would have to explain what induced the Yang to act!  So in a sense the Yin is active ... and so on.  To be a real man you have to be quite female

 

 

 

But what is a female trait  ?

 

careful now ....

 

   

 

 

To be a 'real man' in Samurai  tradition you need to be able to make a nice flower arrangement (Ikibana ) , write a good poem , in beautiful handwriting (calligraphy ), make a good cup of tea , and be able to kill people with a sword or barehanded . )  My question would be , which one of those , in samurai tradition  are male traits and which are female traits   ?     

 

 

[Apech]

4 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

But what is a female trait  ?

 

careful now ....

 

   

 

 

To be a 'real man' in Samurai  tradition you need to be able to make a nice flower arrangement (Ikibana ) , write a good poem , in beautiful handwriting (calligraphy ), make a good cup of tea , and be able to kill people with a sword or barehanded . )  My question would be , which one of those , in samurai tradition  are male traits and which are female traits   ?     

 

 

 

 

well you caught me out slipping into male/female ... but they are all YinYang traits.

 

 

[Nungali]

12 minutes ago, Apech said:

This bamboo not yarrow - but hey:

 

 

Its highly inappropriate to make fun of a Chinese accent , and very old school Benny Hill humor ! 

 

Besides ... that bamboo  IS  yellow  !

 

12 minutes ago, Apech said:

I came across the idea that the 'broken' yin line is a piece with a join in it, while a yang line a plain piece.  Hence 'broken' actually means joined.

 

I prefer  lines and rings

and bits of strings

its just a theory

but I think that really

gluons and gravitons

are just things .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

12 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

This is how I think of it - whether its true or not

 

 

 

 

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

This bamboo not yarrow - but hey:

 

 

I came across the idea that the 'broken' yin line is a piece with a join in it, while a yang line a plain piece.  Hence 'broken' actually means joined.

 

This is how I think of it - whether its true or not

 

 

 

 

Whoever came up with that idea misled you. 

 

Theoretically, you could probably use bamboo to imitate the yarrow stalk method (provided it's thin enough for you to hold 50 stalks between your fingers, in which case chances are it hasn't had a chance to grow long enough to form enough straight space between knots yet, or knots as such for that matter), just like you could use chopsticks, plastic straws or pencils.  But the yin and yang lines are formed based on the numeric values of numbers which are either yang (odd) or yin (even).  That's because tao, which is symbolically represented as an empty circle -- think zero -- which precedes One, is the Great Mother, so the number following the female, Mother number, is yang, male -- One, the stick.  In Chinese it looks like this:

 

So, the female yin tao begets one -- the male 1, the odd, yang number.  Next, One begets Two.  The even number 2, the female, yin number.  It looks like this:

 

     

So there's your yin opening, between those two lines -- not a joint but a hole.  In modern renditions of the I Ching lines that line is positioned differently -- with two strokes side by side for writing convenience, so it turns into a "line" like this: 

______    ______

It represents, however, the same opening as in the "two" above, not a joint and not something "broken."  An open receptive inner in-between space.  "Yang embracing yin" in the original taoist understanding of the primordial relationship between them.  

 

So, the yin or yang lines are obtained and interpreted in strict accordance with the inner logic of taoist conceptual thought -- while  the concept of a "joint" is, if anything, the opposite of the openness of yin which presupposes inner space in between, the space between the visible surface yang manifestations.  This is a system that is based on a unified theory, and that's why mistakes of interpretation, mutually exclusive inherent contradictions, stick out -- they can't be unified with the rest of the theory, they are disjointed (despite having joints in this case) and random mental constructs that don't constitute a piece of the puzzle which, for all its complexity (arising smoothly and gradually from the foundational simplicity), is neither. 

 

It's Western sciences' style--  to collect mountains of pieces of assorted puzzles that don't stick together, biology not knowing what physics is up to and the latter steering clear of geography and linguistics and genetics, let alone philosophy and religion.  But  taoist art-science-practices always share their fundamentals -- without any of them being irrelevant or contradictory.  A discovery in linguistics is a discovery in neidan, and developing cosmology means developing clinical medicine, and medicine yields understanding of mathematics and architecture and fortune telling...  it's all one snake.  The moment they don't work as a unit, they turn into meaningless "Chinese whispers" of new age.   

[Taomeow]

4 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

But what is a female trait  ?

 

careful now ....

 

   

 

 

To be a 'real man' in Samurai  tradition you need to be able to make a nice flower arrangement (Ikibana ) , write a good poem , in beautiful handwriting (calligraphy ), make a good cup of tea , and be able to kill people with a sword or barehanded . )  My question would be , which one of those , in samurai tradition  are male traits and which are female traits   ?     

 

 

 

 

As Apech already pointed out, these are yin-yang traits -- but we also have to keep in mind that our understanding of male-female traits is woefully skewed and our history grossly rewritten.  The fierce onna-bugeisha, female samurai warriors, constituted at least 30% among samurai warriors in medieval Japan, and the number wasn't 50-50 not because they were inferior to male warriors but because...  well, because women and men are both yin-yang but more women are more yin, and are either more suited for, or might prefer, endeavors that are more yin.  By the same token, a long-standing tradition (currently being revisited in Japanese fashion magazines) of effeminate males as the ideal of maleness among the Japanese aristocracy, emulating the style of Prince Genji that dictated what a "real man" should strive to be for centuries, still turned only some, not all, men into that ideal of pretty-as-a-girl softness, elegance, refinement and away from all things rough-and-tumble.

 

https://historydaily.org/female-samurai-warriors-of-japan

 

 

[Bindi]

16 hours ago, Apech said:

I'll start by confessing my complete lack of qualifications for discussing YinYang but what I do have is an old olive tree in my garden.  One side is noticeably straighter, dryer, lighter than the other - which is more rounded, mossy and damp.  There aren't two trees but the tree is only possible because of the 'tension' or interaction between the two sides.  The first is the South facing and the second is the North.  Now you can produce lists of associations like male, active, light and female, passive, dark and such - but I am seeing these as illustrative and not as definitions.  You could say Yang is active ... but then you would have to explain what induced the Yang to act!  So in a sense the Yin is active ... and so on.  To be a real man you have to be quite female

 

 

I decided today that I’ve been trying to fit my worldview into Daoism, and it just ain’t working, so from now on I will try to define my view in my own distinctive system. So I won’t refer to yin and yang which has already been defined to Taoist’s satisfaction, and instead I will refer to black and white subtle energy channels, and these are defined differently to yin and yang. They aren’t active and passive, strong and weak, or any other such pair, they are in fact almost opposite, the black/female is the emotions on the earthly level and the active doer on the subtle level, and the white/male is mental on the earthly level and gives the instructions to the doer on the subtle level. A bit clumsy, but a declared separate view at least, and in the end not at all like Taoism, but then again it’s not  Whew, this position was a while coming  

[Bindi]

16 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Not that I have any  'classical understanding' , I am more of a ' backyard Daoist '  or  ' Dao a la Nungali ' , still I have never considered yin / yang as   alive / dead or  strong / weak   .... what appears here (mislabeled IMO ) as dead and weak  I would more correctly call active and 'receptive'      Eg 'energy' or force in Aikido can be projective or receptive , I dont consider the receptive force 'weaker' .  Dead / alive are just opposites  " alive " has yin / yang qualities ...   I think the problem lies at just looking at , or attempting to look at  duality alone, divorced from triplicity ;  ie. it isnt life / death  but  life (in this example ; taking a 'thing' , life -   birth death ( with life running between them ) .   You dont have a coin  /  heads  . You have a coin  with heads / tails . You dont just have life ... are 'in life' / alive  then die . You are born  .... have life ... then it ends in death . 

 

I am not sure what you meant about your mention of  'like in Masonic lore '  ?  
 

 

I read this in Richard Cassaro’s article here. Duality has a lot going for it in my worldview™, but when it devolves into good/bad it has lost the way. 

 

Quote

I do agree this other viewpoint is short changing yourself .

 

Then again ... things are pretty different in my backyard .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

I read this in Richard Cassaro’s article here. Duality has a lot going for it in my worldview™, but when it devolves into good/bad it has lost the way. 

 

 

Its actually a triplicity  ......   again     

 

Something is between those 'twin towers'   .   Its based on esoteric Judaism and the the two pillars of mercy and severity  , in this schema there are  3 pillars (as shown in the link ) the third is equilibrium . 

 

Also from that link ;

 

 

How the Masonic"Triangle" (above the Twin Headed Eagle) symbolizes the Unity or Reconciliation of Opposites—which reveals Freemasonry’s
Secret of Three (union or reconciliation of the"pairs of opposites")

 

or, we could call that reconciliation  'self discernment ' .   I often cite this passage, from 'The Book of the Balance' which is based on the above 2 pillars, two sephiroth and two principles ;

 

" Remember that unbalanced force is evil; that unbalanced severity is but cruelty and oppression; but that also unbalanced mercy is but weakness which would allow and abet Evil. Act passionately; think rationally; be Thyself "

 

Here the 3rd principle is us , sitting between those two extremes and using our discernment in application .

 

When we just think about 'opposites' we can fall into the good / bad trap , the principle of 2 is like a binary code , its either there, or not there ;    1100110100100111001001010. -  a digital signal ; on or off .

 

But triplicity is more like an analogue signal , its modulation or scale intensity is relaying the info

 

+ ............x............................................................ -

 

 

 

 

 

[Bindi]

26 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Its actually a triplicity  ......   again     

 

Something is between those 'twin towers'   .   Its based on esoteric Judaism and the the two pillars of mercy and severity  , in this schema there are  3 pillars (as shown in the link ) the third is equilibrium . 

 

Also from that link ;

 

 

How the Masonic"Triangle" (above the Twin Headed Eagle) symbolizes the Unity or Reconciliation of Opposites—which reveals Freemasonry’s
Secret of Three (union or reconciliation of the"pairs of opposites")

 

or, we could call that reconciliation  'self discernment ' .   I often cite this passage, from 'The Book of the Balance' which is based on the above 2 pillars, two sephiroth and two principles ;

 

" Remember that unbalanced force is evil; that unbalanced severity is but cruelty and oppression; but that also unbalanced mercy is but weakness which would allow and abet Evil. Act passionately; think rationally; be Thyself "

 

Here the 3rd principle is us , sitting between those two extremes and using our discernment in application .

 

When we just think about 'opposites' we can fall into the good / bad trap , the principle of 2 is like a binary code , its either there, or not there ;    1100110100100111001001010. -  a digital signal ; on or off .

 

But triplicity is more like an analogue signal , its modulation or scale intensity is relaying the info

 

+ ............x............................................................ -

 

 

 

 

 

Sure, I think Triplicity is true, I favour the yoga model of there being a central channel in between the two side channels, and in my worldview they all need to have the same ‘spiritual’ energy running through them in the end. 

[Michael Sternbach]

On 30/10/2020 at 12:34 AM, Apech said:

<snip>We recently had a thread 'emotions are the path' and I wonder, bearing that in mind where we strike the balance between being in the world but not worldly?  Or is this a faulty concept in itself anyway?  Do we see the world as a kind of testing ground - or is it just illusion anyway?<snap> 

 

This led me to question: What do we mean when we talk about "the world"? Many cultivators feel they are "not made for this world" - implying that they are experiencing difficulty dealing with certain aspects of it.

 

What are those aspects, though? What exactly is that we feel at odds with? Society? Our culture? Our own body? Physical reality as such?

 

Can we actually draw a line where "we" end and "the world" begins?

 

I think the answer to these questions really matter. For instance, I may be feeling alienated from of society (or certain parts thereof), while still having confidence in my ability to deal with the physical environment that surrounds me.

 

Just some early morning thoughts...

[Apech]

On 11/5/2020 at 7:26 AM, Michael Sternbach said:

 

This led me to question: What do we mean when we talk about "the world"? Many cultivators feel they are "not made for this world" - implying that they are experiencing difficulty dealing with certain aspects of it.

 

What are those aspects, though? What exactly is that we feel at odds with? Society? Our culture? Our own body? Physical reality as such?

 

Can we actually draw a line where "we" end and "the world" begins?

 

I think the answer to these questions really matter. For instance, I may be feeling alienated from of society (or certain parts thereof), while still having confidence in my ability to deal with the physical environment that surrounds me.

 

Just some early morning thoughts...

 

While there are threats from the natural environment - like earthquakes and floods  and so on - they are certainly not of the same quality as the world in the sense of the human environment we inhabit.  While recognising the power of nature and respecting it - do we ever feel alienated from it?  I suspect alienation is because of unaddressed need.  We want things to be a certain way but they aren't - and there is an emotional struggle with this.  But I suspect that this is simply because we have forgotten, or lost touch with who we really are.

 

The human world is famous for negative input.  Our fellow human beings seem to think they are engaged in a struggle of superiority, whether it is for possessions or ideas.  There's a kind of subliminal continuous war going on - which may I suppose be viewed as a battle for power.  This is the world as 'the age of man'.  And by man I mean mankind not males.

 

So it still leaves the big question - as DaoBums (serious ones who wish to cultivate) what is our best attitude to or approach to the world - is it ok to be a hermit or do we need to take arms against the sea of troubles and by opposing end them?

 

 

[natural]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

So it still leaves the big question - as DaoBums (serious ones who wish to cultivate) what is our best attitude to or approach to the world - is it ok to be a hermit or do we need to take arms against the sea of troubles and by opposing end them?

 

 

Is it an either or?

Or situational as in what's the hermit to do when the bulldozers arrive, fight or choose flight?

And the non hermit fight against homelessness on a large scale or lock arms with the hermit?

[Michael Sternbach]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

While there are threats from the natural environment - like earthquakes and floods  and so on - they are certainly not of the same quality as the world in the sense of the human environment we inhabit.  While recognising the power of nature and respecting it - do we ever feel alienated from it?  I suspect alienation is because of unaddressed need.  We want things to be a certain way but they aren't - and there is an emotional struggle with this.  But I suspect that this is simply because we have forgotten, or lost touch with who we really are.

 

The human world is famous for negative input.  Our fellow human beings seem to think they are engaged in a struggle of superiority, whether it is for possessions or ideas.  There's a kind of subliminal continuous war going on - which may I suppose be viewed as a battle for power.  This is the world as 'the age of man'.  And by man I mean mankind not males.

 

So it still leaves the big question - as DaoBums (serious ones who wish to cultivate) what is our best attitude to or approach to the world - is it ok to be a hermit or do we need to take arms against the sea of troubles and by opposing end them?

 

 

 

Well, I always considered it important to keep my personal space clear from intrusion. I would also come to the aid of a handful of individuals that I feel connected to.

 

Would I be ready intervene beyond that? It depends... Nothing wrong with protecting some innocent beings in need. For that matter, I occasionally donate moderate amounts to organizations whose purpose is to help animals. And I find myself most inclined to do so, when I am told exactly to what end the money is going to be used, be it for the street dogs in Romania or some bears kept in a cage under horrific circumstances... That makes things more personal for me.

 

However, beyond giving some  advice when it's solicited, I avoid getting involved in things that only concern others and especially people that have their own share in creating a particular situation.

 

Now a ladyfriend of mine is of a somewhat different mind. When we had a car in front of us racing over the highway at breakneck speed and (in her view) with little control, she was about to call the cops. But I told her, 'hey, chill, my dear, that's not our problem... Just keep enough distance between us and them, so you can still stop in case that car is going to hit the wall'. And she listened to me and let it go its way.

 

On another occasion, she got worked up about a guy who had received a 'corona credit' allegedly for his company but used privately for buying a Lamborghini. "Why do you care?", I asked her. "That's not really hurting anyone, is it?" She replied: "I am a member of the company's supervisory board... If I don't sue the idiot, I will be in trouble myself!" "Well, I wouldn't put myself in such a position in the first place", I said. To this, she first objected for a moment; then she admitted I was right.

 

 

Now this lady typically feels victimized by circumstances seemingly beyond her control. And I watch her and can't help wondering why she has taken those circumstances upon herself in the first place? Is she perhaps seeking out challenges in the outer world to calm her inner demon down? Every so often, when we attack others (however justified we may feel to do so), aren't we in truth attacking our own projections?

 

Bottom line: Sometimes our actions may be "karmic", even though they serve some good. Sometimes they are not "karmic", even though they may seem improper in the conventional view.

 

And only the kind of wisdom that takes the bigger picture into account can tell one from the other.