Dao Bums reflecting on the world

[Apech]

21 hours ago, natural said:

Is it an either or?

Or situational as in what's the hermit to do when the bulldozers arrive, fight or choose flight?

And the non hermit fight against homelessness on a large scale or lock arms with the hermit?

 

If it's not an either or - then can it be a both/and - and what would that look like?  One might be a hero's journey - but most hero's journeys end up with returning home - and usually some distance from the ways of other folk.  Oohh I went all Frodo Baggins then!

 

 

[natural]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

If it's not an either or - then can it be a both/and - and what would that look like?  One might be a hero's journey - but most hero's journeys end up with returning home - and usually some distance from the ways of other folk.  Oohh I went all Frodo Baggins then!

 

 

Both looks like a journey / struggle followed by a rest (often in my case away from other folks, you see my people skills are fine, its in tolerating idiots I need to work on, present company excluded!)

I think we vacillate between both.

To varying degrees our entire life...

[Feral]

3 hours ago, natural said:

Both looks like a journey / struggle followed by a rest (often in my case away from other folks, you see my people skills are fine, its in tolerating idiots I need to work on, present company excluded!)

I think we vacillate between both.

To varying degrees our entire life...

 

First, I would like to say that this is such a fantastic discussion and has helped solidify my own thoughts on Apech's question. Of course the key here is Balance.

 

Speaking for myself, it's as if we create our world from two different drawers. In one drawer is the physical world. We have to live in it to survive and it's the source of every degree of pain and pleasure, morality, sin, security, religion, ego, you name it. It's the dualistic world and survival of the physical body and it's progeny is the goal. In the other drawer is the spiritual world of oneness, love, compassion, humility, non ego, non dual. The world of highest virtue.

 

I think it's rather pointless to argue whether either of these worlds are real or illusion, it's simply where we are. The point is to find some balance between the two. To integrate the contents of one drawer into the other. A person doesn't have to simply exist, one can live nobly and with a sense of purpose. You know, nurture the seeds of creativity and evolution. Our own free will allows us to decide how much of what we want to put into the mix, and that's the beauty of it, there's always going to be a different mix as we seek a way to live well.

 

I'm just an armchair daoist at best, but the idea of balancing yin and yang seems to be a wise path to take while lurching through this life   

 

[Apech]

22 minutes ago, Feral said:

 

First, I would like to say that this is such a fantastic discussion and has helped solidify my own thoughts on Apech's question. Of course the key here is Balance.

 

Speaking for myself, it's as if we create our world from two different drawers. In one drawer is the physical world. We have to live in it to survive and it's the source of every degree of pain and pleasure, morality, sin, security, religion, ego, you name it. It's the dualistic world and survival of the physical body and it's progeny is the goal. In the other drawer is the spiritual world of oneness, love, compassion, humility, non ego, non dual. The world of highest virtue.

 

I think it's rather pointless to argue whether either of these worlds are real or illusion, it's simply where we are. The point is to find some balance between the two. To integrate the contents of one drawer into the other. A person doesn't have to simply exist, one can live nobly and with a sense of purpose. You know, nurture the seeds of creativity and evolution. Our own free will allows us to decide how much of what we want to put into the mix, and that's the beauty of it, there's always going to be a different mix as we seek a way to live well.

 

I'm just an armchair daoist at best, but the idea of balancing yin and yang seems to be a wise path to take while lurching through this life   

 

 

 

Thank you Feral and welcome to this conversation.

 

I guess living nobly is cultivating Te (De) which is where this all takes us.  Perhaps the world doesn't have that as a purpose - more that we make it our purpose.

 

How do we 'integrate one drawer into the other' I wonder.

[Mig]

On 11/2/2020 at 1:39 PM, Taomeow said:

Observing the natural world closely is always very helpful when tackling taoist concepts.  As an old folk taoist song goes (which I saw quoted in a Chinese novel, Soul Mountain), 

"What do men cultivate?  A stick!  

What do women cultivate? A hole!"

 

Interesting note and wonder if this is the one from the English translation:

Men cultivate, what do they cultivate?
They cultivate a rod.
Women cultivate, what do they cultivate?
They cultivate a ditch.
There is a round of cheers and the old man wipes his mouth with his
hand.
When the rod is thrown into the ditch,
It becomes a leaping, lively eel – Ah!

 

 

[Mig]

On 10/29/2020 at 4:34 PM, Apech said:

Here we are in the middle of one of the most challenging turbulent years  (yeah I know its not the middle technically) but we have a lot that's going on that is ... well perhaps unsettling is the best word.  We are all cultivators/practitioners of various kinds and hues - and perhaps one mark of good practice or realisation might be how well we can balance ourselves, maintain harmony with change - while not being other worldly or detached from 'reality'.  The outer world is fascinating ... sometimes it starts out that way - then draws us in to turbulence - draws us off centre.

 

Indeed, we are living years of too much information, information that is apparently manipulated even many academic papers that need to be challenged, many ideas and natural laws that need to be refuted and still we know little and practically have no control of what's going on. It seems to me that what we are living now is the same humans have lived in the past, long past and the difference now is that information is there right in front of us.

 

On 10/29/2020 at 4:34 PM, Apech said:

 

We recently had a thread 'emotions are the path' and I wonder, bearing that in mind where we strike the balance between being in the world but not worldly?  Or is this a faulty concept in itself anyway?  Do we see the world as a kind of testing ground - or is it just illusion anyway?  

 

IMO, we are on both worlds. In the past Americans were known not to be aware about the world around them, today they are much aware and still people have no clue what's going on, they are completely not interested how much the world is important to them in their policies and economies. It seems to me that the world is more interested in their gadgets and less humanization. People are more interested in humanizing their pets and forget about the world in hunger and lack of basic quality of life.

 

On 10/29/2020 at 4:34 PM, Apech said:

 

I think different philosophies and systems give perspectives on this - and I guess my own approach is almost unconsciously drawn from various places - I tend to see things happening for a purpose to teach me something - although quite often I'm not totally clear what the lesson is.  So I'm interested in how other people tackle this tight rope walk we have to do between inner and outer.  Anything you have to say on this subject will be greatly appreciated.

 

It seems that there is more about ourselves to work on, learn more about compassion, conservation and humility. We are not there yet even for those who study philosophy or religion. I don't see action to make changes whether you are in the middle east, southeast Asia, central Europe or Latin America.

 

 

[Feral]

48 minutes ago, Apech said:

How do we 'integrate one drawer into the other' I wonder.

 

Well, lets take something on a very basic and physical level. To eat. We all need to do it in order to get through the day, but should we do it with savage self preservation or will we bring over something from the other drawer like gratitude, or with a sense of indebtedness to the wider forces involved in that organism's existence. Maybe we even had a hand in it's very creation. There is a sense of worth there that transcends it's very physical nature. Maybe something spiritual. Besides, it's what makes us civilized creatures. Now don't go confusing my grand words with my baser actions- it's an ideal. But it's what we work towards. Physical needs tempered with spiritual virtue. There's a better word than "tempered" but I can't find it at the moment.

 

Our actions cause ripples in the pond. Will those ripples be beneficial or destructive? Does it even matter in the end if it doesn't change the final outcome? If it doesn't, then that makes me wonder what the entire point is. Can man live on acceptance alone?

 

So, I suppose one can be as involved in guiding the course of world events as they want to be. some people can even do that. On a more personal level, everyone has to navigate their own boat to some extent.

 

Anyway, the old well worn metaphor of life as a river never fails calm  my nerves. It's always a great teacher for me.