Evidnece for the super natural

[Maddie]

I am at a new place of skepticism in my life where mere claims and statements are not longer good enough. If someone makes a paranormal or supernatural claim I want to know if its real or not based upon evidence as opposed to anecdotes, legends or opinions. I realize this rules out the claims of just about every religion and spiritual tradition on the planet.

 

What I would like to know is if anyone has any solid verifiable evidence or proof that any of the claims of the spiritual, super natural or para normal are real. Does anyone have any objective evidence of this?   

[dwai]

1 hour ago, dmattwads said:

I am at a new place of skepticism in my life where mere claims and statements are not longer good enough. If someone makes a paranormal or supernatural claim I want to know if its real or not based upon evidence as opposed to anecdotes, legends or opinions. I realize this rules out the claims of just about every religion and spiritual tradition on the planet.

 

What I would like to know is if anyone has any solid verifiable evidence or proof that any of the claims of the spiritual, super natural or para normal are real. Does anyone have any objective evidence of this?   

Wrt the spiritual, how can you get objective evidence for a subjective experience? Best we can do is empirical evidence, but each individual has to be the lab, experiment and observer in one. 
 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, dmattwads said:

I am at a new place of skepticism in my life where mere claims and statements are not longer good enough. If someone makes a paranormal or supernatural claim I want to know if its real or not based upon evidence as opposed to anecdotes, legends or opinions. I realize this rules out the claims of just about every religion and spiritual tradition on the planet.

 

What I would like to know is if anyone has any solid verifiable evidence or proof that any of the claims of the spiritual, super natural or para normal are real. Does anyone have any objective evidence of this?   

 

Problem here is that my proof is proof for me . if I told you my proof then it becomes anecdotal or opinion to you .

[Nintendao]

Maybe a bit like asking to prove “what is the color of sound?” or “what do trees really think of butterflies?” The metric does not match the medium. Supernatural is by definition outside of objectivism?

[Maddie]

15 hours ago, Nintendao said:

Maybe a bit like asking to prove “what is the color of sound?” or “what do trees really think of butterflies?” The metric does not match the medium. Supernatural is by definition outside of objectivism?

 

Some good points 😌

[rocala]

A really good question and one that I have often pondered. From recent times the most interesting case which could be viewed as evidence concerned a haunted farm, I think it was in Wales, and was reported on a British TV documentary.

 

There were a variety of scary and odd occurrences but what was different (as far as I know) was that vast amounts of electricity were somehow used. This caused very expensive bills. The power company investigated and concluded that the charges were justified but could offer no explanation for such an event. The farm, it was claimed was not capable of using that much energy.

 

Flimsy as evidence, but interesting.

Edited November 10, 2020 by rocala
Grammer

[Nungali]

I have had electricity bills like that 

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I have heard of this phenomena:

 

3 hours ago, rocala said:

A really good question and one that I have often pondered. From recent times the most interesting case which could be viewed as evidence concerned a haunted farm, I think it was in Wales, and was reported on a British TV documentary.

 

There were a variety of scary and odd occurrences but what was different (as far as I know) was that vast amounts of electricity were somehow used. This caused very expensive bills. The power company investigated and concluded that the charges were justified but could offer no explanation for such an event. The farm, it was claimed was not capable of using that much energy.

 

Flimsy as evidence, but interesting.

 

38 minutes ago, Nungali said:

I have had electricity bills like that 

 

as long ago as the early 1980s in a magical context.  basically it would be the electromagnetic equivalent of the better known Cold spot which is well known in the literature of hauntings and since the arrival of the "ghost hunter" TV programs has made its way into popular culture.

 

If the actual phenomena are well enough documented then such accompanying losses documented by accompanying electric bills could be used to give more credence to the phenomena as "real".

 

ZYD

[forestofclarity]

Mere claims and statements should never be enough. However, I don't agree that religious and spiritual traditions rely on mere statements. I would say in particular the Indic traditions (Vedanta, Buddhism, etc.) are very much experientially based traditions. 

 

However, there is a small but growing body of scientific research checking into supernatural claims. A good start is this study compiled by the University of Virginia. 

 

https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/book/mind-beyond-brain-buddhism-science-and-the-paranormal/

 

On 11/9/2020 at 10:03 AM, dmattwads said:

I am at a new place of skepticism in my life where mere claims and statements are not longer good enough. If someone makes a paranormal or supernatural claim I want to know if its real or not based upon evidence as opposed to anecdotes, legends or opinions. I realize this rules out the claims of just about every religion and spiritual tradition on the planet.

 

What I would like to know is if anyone has any solid verifiable evidence or proof that any of the claims of the spiritual, super natural or para normal are real. Does anyone have any objective evidence of this?   

 

[Nintendao]

Electricity is weird. The first people to manipulate static electricity must’ve felt on to something pretty paranormal, where nowadays most kindergartener can show you how to rub a balloon on your hair to get it to magically stick to the wall. Even if they can’t fully explain it, the phenomenon has become normalized.
 

There are some youtubers getting pretty good at the “psi wheel,” which may well just be some refined version of the static ballon trick, or something to do with air temperature. Maybe it is a glimpse of bona fide mind over matter, connecting to the object in a more fundamental way, that only quantum physicists can justify. Either way they say anyone can learn to do it given enough practice.

[rocala]

16 minutes ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

f the actual phenomena are well enough documented then such accompanying losses documented by accompanying electric bills could be used to give more credence to the phenomena as "real".

Yes I think so. Especially if there was also a statement from a vet about unusual deaths among the animals as well as statements from multiple family members.

 

I found a bit more info. https://www.walesonline.co.uk/lifestyle/tv/possessions-strange-visions-ghostly-figures-14554672

[Maddie]

6 hours ago, rocala said:

A really good question and one that I have often pondered. From recent times the most interesting case which could be viewed as evidence concerned a haunted farm, I think it was in Wales, and was reported on a British TV documentary.

 

There were a variety of scary and odd occurrences but what was different (as far as I know) was that vast amounts of electricity were somehow used. This caused very expensive bills. The power company investigated and concluded that the charges were justified but could offer no explanation for such an event. The farm, it was claimed was not capable of using that much energy.

 

Flimsy as evidence, but interesting.

 

This actually makes me think of a situation several years ago where my girlfriend at the time and I both felt as though some strange paranormal events were happening to both of us simultaneously yet we were on opposite sides of town and as we were texting each other about this both of our phones though fully charged drained within minutes. Both of our phones on opposite sides of the town precisely when we were experiencing odd phenomenon.

[rocala]

13 hours ago, dmattwads said:

both of our phones though fully charged drained within minutes

 The TV program that I mentioned was the only time that I have come across a link between electricity and supernatural phenomena. Now you mention this, hmmm I wonder what other info is out there?

[dwai]

This organization has been doing some very interesting work in the field — https://noetic.org/science/experiments/

[Maddie]

3 hours ago, rocala said:

 The TV program that I mentioned was the only time that I have come across a link between electricity and supernatural phenomena. Now you mention this, hmmm I wonder what other info is out there?

 

It is weird and interesting at the same time. After this post I even texted her to make sure I was remembering the event correctly and she verified that that was also how she remembered it as well. At the time we were discussing what we believed was going on with this entity and what to do to counteract it and we both felt that the entity didn't like us putting our heads together to figure out what it was doing and how to deal with it and so was therefore trying to interfere with our primary means of communication at the time. 

[Maddie]

I should add that I have had several situations in my life that are very difficult to explain rationally or scientifically though I acknowledge that the brain tends to see patterns that are not there and create false memories, but with that being said I will list a few of the best examples of inexplicable occurrences in my life that I have no logical explanation for.  

 

1. A long time ago was involved in a church that I now consider to be a cult. They were very strict and it was considered that if you left the church that you would go to hell. I was becoming very dissatisfied with this church but still was worried that if I were to leave that I might incur the wrath of God and be doomed. My job at the time was delivering sheetrock in the Pacific Northwest where it is very often overcast and rainy. So one day when I was contemplating leaving this church while working I thought I would ask God for a sign that I was ok with him even though I was thinking of leaving the church. ( I don't currently believe in a creator god, but this was my mindset at the time). So I looked up in the sky and as usual, it was overcast and drizzling and didn't show any sign of being otherwise for some time to come. So I prayed and said "God if I am ok with you then let the clouds directly over me and nowhere else part while I am unloading this sheetrock and then go back to normal after I am finished with this job. My friend that I worked from the church was with me and since he was also having his doubts about this church I told him what I had prayed. Then the strangest thing happened. About 30 seconds to a minute later the clouds directly over us but nowhere else parted, the sun came through, and it stopped raining where we were at. We continued to unload the sheetrock while staring in amazement at the sky. Both my friend and I saw this and were looking at each other in amazement. After we had unloaded the last piece of sheetrock maybe 30 seconds to a minute later the clouds closed up and it went back to being overcast and raining again. 

 

2. This next story is similar to the first one but about a month later I had left this church but was still worried that God might be mad at me for leaving. This time my girlfriend at the time and I were at a river with some of her family while they were fishing. This was also in the Pacific Northwest and once again it was cloudy and overcast. I had already told my girlfriend about the cloud incident while I was working and also expressing my anxiety that perhaps now that I had actually left the church now God was pissed off at me. I then decided to repeat the same prayer. I prayed that the clouds above us would open the rest of the time we were there and then close again when we left. So I prayed and sure enough the sky only directly above us opened up just as before and then as we were getting in the car to leave the clouds closed again. To me, it seems that having the same thing happen twice is too much to simply be a coincidence. (Which is why I think I wanted to do it more than once, to rule out the first time just being a coincidence). 

 

I have some more stories which I will add soon.....

[Maddie]

3. A few years later I'm married to the previously mentioned girlfriend at the river. We are both at this point still of a rather fundamentalist Christian mindset and our relationship is not doing well. She was constantly claiming in arguments that God was on her side, that God knew she was right, ect. So one day I got fed up with this and said "If I"m right God will make it snow tomorrow and only tomorrow". For background it was July. We lived in the interior of Alaska at this point, but even though it was Alaska in the interior in July it can easily get into the '90s and sometimes even hit 100 degrees Fahrenheit. So what happens the very next day? It snows of course. I have never seen this happen before or since, even in Alaska. Of course, she just huffed and ignored it, but still, it snowed in July the very next day after I had prayed that it would snow the next day. 

 

4. Back when I was in high school I became interested in the Ouiji board and me a few friends were spending time using it over the summer break. Also at this time my sister had become very religious and did not like the fact that we used the Ouiji board. When we would try to use it in the living room she would be so disruptive that we decided to take it to my room so that we could continue to use it undisturbed. So now we are in my room and we continue to use the board. We had locked my door so that my sister could not come in and disturb us. After a couple of minutes of using the board, the pointer suddenly flies out from under our fingertips and hits the door. From the way our hands had been on the pointer it did not seem like there was any way any of us could have done that. We go to the door and open it and my sister is crouched on the other side praying. We each ask each other if anyone had thrown the pointer somehow but no one said they had. Additionally, with everyone's fingertips lightly touching the top of the pointer it did not seem like anyone could have thrown the pointer at the door, especially with the force at which it hit the door. A lot of weird and creepy things happened in that house. 

Edited November 11, 2020 by dmattwads

[rocala]

21 hours ago, dmattwads said:

so was therefore trying to interfere with our primary means of communication at the time. 

Maybe not so much interfering as feeding? If there are such beings / events then it is reasonable to assume an energy source would be required. This may also explain the earlier mentioned cold spots if heat energy could be used.

[Maddie]

4 hours ago, rocala said:

Maybe not so much interfering as feeding? If there are such beings / events then it is reasonable to assume an energy source would be required. This may also explain the earlier mentioned cold spots if heat energy could be used.

 

True, I've considered that possibility as well. The problem with this stuff is it's so difficult to quantify.

[thelerner]

I looked for evidence of the supernatural when I was younger.  Never found it, other then some people could do energy work that was inexplicative, but not really quantifiable. 

 

At this point I don't really expect to see things that go against nature, not in an on demand kind of way.  I assume there are coincidences that go beyond natural explanations happening all the time but not in ways reproducible. 

 

I've been hoping that deep dreamwork might produce some paradigm change in the beliefs of human capacities.  Not so far, but I'm hopeful.  

[cmpunk50]

I have one story, might not be that exciting, but I’ll let you judge. I grew up in a row home, or a metropolitan city block. It was 2 stories, with a basement. The bedrooms were on the top floor. The basement was always cool, and up until college it was my hangout where we had a computer and cable tv. On a Friday night in the early 2000s, I was at the computer, and my father was watching tv on the couch. 
 

before I continue, some needed background. The basement had an exit in the back to the driveway, and from there was a washer/dryer, linoleum floor, and a cedar closet under the steps. This closet was rarely opened, and you had to really pull hard to open as it had an extremely tight seal with the door handle. Anyway, we had a dog, and we would sometimes call him by his nickname ‘cleats’ because when he needed to go to the bathroom, you would hear that noise on the linoleum floor. 
 

As I was on the computer, and my father watching tv, we hear the cedar closet open, and I hear footsteps. Half paying attention, I tell my dad, ‘I guess the dog needs to go out’. I walk to the back door, and no one is back there. Go back to my dad and ask ‘did you hear the dog?’ He agreed. I went up to my moms room on the top floor, and our dog was in her room sound asleep.

 

My father passed about 11 years ago. But it’s something we always talked about after. To this day, I remember that moment clearly, and definitely remember the footsteps after the cedar door opening. Of all the years I lived there, that door never opened on it’s own. There was one prior owner before we moved in, and supposedly, the older male died in the house, with the wife moving out. 
 

I have always been fascinated with the paranormal, especially Bigfoot, ghosts, and ufos. This was the only extraordinary experience I ever had. 

[Paradoxal]

On 11/11/2020 at 12:22 PM, dmattwads said:

I should add that I have had several situations in my life that are very difficult to explain rationally or scientifically though I acknowledge that the brain tends to see patterns that are not there and create false memories, but with that being said I will list a few of the best examples of inexplicable occurrences in my life that I have no logical explanation for.  

 

Of those particular experiences, the weather manipulation is actually a simple bit of magic that you were potentially pulling off on accident (though, of course, it could have also been external intervention.) The simplest way to cast a weather spell is something similar to prayer; you simply focus your energy and intent into a desired weather pattern. It's something I've done plenty of times, and I could see a prayer accidentally having the same effect. 

 

I can't offer you concrete proof, as the proof I have is all first-hand. That said, if you care to listen, I have had multiple experiences with ghosts, prophetic visions, memories of past lives, interactions with various "kami" (it's somewhat hard to explain in English, but simply put, beings that include the fey, gods, demons, and spirit animals, among others), and a high rate of successful spells cast. If you are looking for personal proof, I would suggest learning how to read tarot cards. They are quite reliable as a means of fortune-telling, and once you get practiced enough with them, they become proof in their own right.

[rocala]

On 11/13/2020 at 3:50 AM, cmpunk50 said:

But it’s something we always talked about after. To this day, I remember that moment clearly

So many events are like this. Every day scenarios, people occupied with activities and then for a brief moment, something else. This explains so well how hard it is to gather evidence.

[Maddie]

On 11/15/2020 at 6:05 PM, Paradoxal said:

 

Of those particular experiences, the weather manipulation is actually a simple bit of magic that you were potentially pulling off on accident (though, of course, it could have also been external intervention.) The simplest way to cast a weather spell is something similar to prayer; you simply focus your energy and intent into a desired weather pattern. It's something I've done plenty of times, and I could see a prayer accidentally having the same effect. 

 

I can't offer you concrete proof, as the proof I have is all first-hand. That said, if you care to listen, I have had multiple experiences with ghosts, prophetic visions, memories of past lives, interactions with various "kami" (it's somewhat hard to explain in English, but simply put, beings that include the fey, gods, demons, and spirit animals, among others), and a high rate of successful spells cast. If you are looking for personal proof, I would suggest learning how to read tarot cards. They are quite reliable as a means of fortune-telling, and once you get practiced enough with them, they become proof in their own right.

 

Would love to hear your experiences.

 

in regards to your theory that I was unintentionally doing whether magic I suppose that's a possibility which would make sense considering I don't believe that the god I was praying to at the time even exists LOL.

Edited November 17, 2020 by dmattwads

[Paradoxal]

9 hours ago, dmattwads said:

in regards to your theory that I was unintentionally doing whether magic I suppose that's a possibility which would make sense considering I don't believe that the god I was praying to at the time even exists LOL.

I've found that I'll sometimes unintentionally control the weather still. I think it has something to do with the level of power of the person in question on how easy it is, but most people that I've met that are involved in internal martial arts have enough to do it accidentally. 

 

As for the experiences, of the subsets I listed, are there any that particularly interest you?