Evidnece for the super natural

[stirling]

Some great posts in this thread.

 

My thoughts:

Science is a useful tool - we can use it to find predictable results and apply those results repeatedly, but it is just as inadequate a tool to explain reality as any other belief system.

 

Quote

A scientific theory is an explanation of an aspect of the natural world and universe that has been repeatedly tested and corroborated in accordance with the scientific method, using accepted protocols of observation, measurement, and evaluation of results. Where possible, theories are tested under controlled conditions in an experiment.^[1][2] In circumstances not amenable to experimental testing, theories are evaluated through principles of abductive reasoning. Established scientific theories have withstood rigorous scrutiny and embody scientific knowledge.^[3]

 

A scientific theory differs from a scientific fact or scientific law in that a theory explains "why" or "how": a fact is a simple, basic observation, whereas a law is a statement (often a mathematical equation) about a relationship between facts. For example, Newton’s Law of Gravity is a mathematical equation that can be used to predict the attraction between bodies, but it is not a theory to explain how gravity works.^[4] Stephen Jay Gould wrote that "...facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts."^[5]

 

(Bolds and Italics are mine)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

 

Yes, it is a belief system since it assumes a dualistic reality where a small selection of factors could adequately model a wholeness. If we put any faith in, or come to have true understanding of, the classics of Taoism, Buddhism, Sufism, Advaita, and more, what we are looking at here is something we are entirely interconnected with - something that lacks "separateness" of self and object. A science experiment that truly describes reality therefore would have to include EVERYTHING... anything less is a false belief in an incomplete model, which NOT to say it has no value apart from that. Quantum physics actually points to this idea of interconnectedness and emptiness with its conceptual constructs of quantum entanglement and the observer effect, amongst others. 

 

Quote

“It will remain remarkable, in what ever way our future concepts may develop, that the very study of the external world led to the scientific conclusion that the content of the consciousness is the ultimate universal reality.” -- Eugene P. Wigner

 

Quote

“Hence it is clear that the space of physics is not, in the last analysis, anything given in nature or independent of human thought. It is a function of our conceptual scheme [mind]. Space as conceived by Newton proved to be an illusion, although for practical purposes a very fruitful illusion" – Albert Einstein 

 

Quote

“If we think of the field as being removed, there is no "space‟ which remains, since space does not have an independent existence.” – Albert Einstein

 

...or, some time earlier in a land far far away:

 

Quote

Things are objects because there is a subject or mind;
and the mind is a subject because there are objects.
Understand the relativity of these two
and the basic reality: the unity of emptiness.
In this Emptiness the two are indistinguishable
and each contains in itself the whole world. 
- from "Verses on the Faith Mind"
by Chien-chih Seng-ts'an

 

How does any of this come to bear on the topic of the supernatural? If we are to take our philosophers AND physicists at face value, we must recognize that what this all is exists as awareness. Non-duality, AND Einstein agree that even time is an illusion:

 

Quote

"People like us who believe in physics know that the distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion". - Einstein

 

Therefore, what we perceive is mind - stimuli happening now, in an interconnected everything.

 

Quote

Reality is what we take to be true. What we take to be true is what we believe. What we believe is based on our perceptions. What we perceive depends on what we look for. What we look for depends on what we think. What we think depends on what we perceive. What we perceive determines what we believe. What we believe determines what we take to be true. What we take to be true is our reality. - David Bohm

 

So how does reality look to the mind when it is quiet? Does it look like reality at its basis?

 

IMHO, It is ALL supernatural. This field is populated by enlightened appearances IF we can drop our tightly held ideas about what and how it is and accept it AS it is, ghosts, aliens (which are looking to be pretty real at the moment?), and all.

 

This is how I see it.

[Nintendao]

4 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Evidence is a funny thing

 

Many people think Dark matter and Dark energy are a thing....and they would tell you there is plenty of evidence for those

 

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/dark-matter#:~:text=It doesn't interact with,on galaxies and galaxy clusters.

 

However...is there?? Seems to me they are assuming this is the case based on observation of effect and gap filling rather than having concrete evidence of both..

 

But .....evidence seems to mean different things to different people

 

That's right! I was digging around on that subject a little while ago but put it into a topic of its own. While i love to imagine, I admit it's still too romantic to jump to conclusions about what it actually means either way. My favorite thing about it is it's an example of main stream science literally making assumptions, and even more that it is a demonstration that at least something does exist that we as yet have no means to grab. I don't mean it as a dig against science at all, just as a warning against a kind of facts-based dogmatism that seems to be developing as an over-reaction to the more purely nutty claims out there.

 

 

[Iliketurtles]

5 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

Empiricism in one example is the tastebud test: some people have an aversion to cilantro, and I can’t recall too well, but it was this blotter paper people were given in my university class that determined who hated it and who didn’t because the paper was disgusting to those who felt cilantro tasted like soap whereas  those who tasted nothing tended to enjoy cilantro.

 

Dude I make salads out of fresh cilantro.   I love it.

[Iliketurtles]

Edit because of double post.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Iliketurtles

[Iliketurtles]

4 hours ago, stirling said:

Some great posts in this thread.

 

My thoughts:

Science is a useful tool - we can use it to find predictable results and apply those results repeatedly, but it is just as inadequate a tool to explain reality as any other belief system.

 

 

(Bolds and Italics are mine)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

 

Yes, it is a belief system since it assumes a dualistic reality where a small selection of factors could adequately model a wholeness. If we put any faith in, or come to have true understanding of, the classics of Taoism, Buddhism, Sufism, Advaita, and more, what we are looking at here is something we are entirely interconnected with - something that lacks "separateness" of self and object. A science experiment that truly describes reality therefore would have to include EVERYTHING... anything less is a false belief in an incomplete model, which NOT to say it has no value apart from that. Quantum physics actually points to this idea of interconnectedness and emptiness with its conceptual constructs of quantum entanglement and the observer effect, amongst others. 

 

 

 

 

...or, some time earlier in a land far far away:

 

 

How does any of this come to bear on the topic of the supernatural? If we are to take our philosophers AND physicists at face value, we must recognize that what this all is exists as awareness. Non-duality, AND Einstein agree that even time is an illusion:

 

 

Therefore, what we perceive is mind - stimuli happening now, in an interconnected everything.

 

 

So how does reality look to the mind when it is quiet? Does it look like reality at its basis?

 

IMHO, It is ALL supernatural. This field is populated by enlightened appearances IF we can drop our tightly held ideas about what and how it is and accept it AS it is, ghosts, aliens (which are looking to be pretty real at the moment?), and all.

 

This is how I see it.

 

I really enjoyed reading this thank you for posting it.

[Earl Grey]

1 hour ago, Iliketurtles said:

 

Dude I make salads out of fresh cilantro.   I love it.

Vietnamese phô without cilantro is a crime. But I got s couple other Asian American friends who just hand me their cilantro and get disgusted when I load my bowl up with it. I regret nothing!

Edited January 24, 2022 by Earl Grey

[zerostao]

6 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

Empiricism in one example is the tastebud test: some people have an aversion to cilantro, and I can’t recall too well, but it was this blotter paper people were given in my university class that determined who hated it and who didn’t because the paper was disgusting to those who felt cilantro tasted like soap whereas  those who tasted nothing tended to enjoy cilantro.

kindly, pass the blotter paper, so I may check my taste buds. I tried blotter paper once and had all kinds of evidence for supernatural.

I'm willing to try that again, for the benefit of this thread. The things a concierge is willing to do for bums, really.

Edited January 24, 2022 by zerostao

[Earl Grey]

3 minutes ago, zerostao said:

kindly, pass the blotter paper, so I may check my taste buds. I tried blotter paper once and had all kinds of evidence for supernatural.

I'm willing to try that again, for the benefit of this thread. The things a concierge is willing to do for bums, really.

Yes, do you want spring rolls and vermicelli with that too?

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

You can see the blotter paper experiments hidden above require a lot of dedication and we salute you for your boldness and initiative!

[zerostao]

1 minute ago, Earl Grey said:

Yes, do you want spring rolls and vermicelli with that too?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

  Reveal hidden contents

You can see the blotter paper experiments hidden above require a lot of dedication and we salute you for your boldness and initiative!

How kind of you! Yes, please and thanks. 

I will repost back after a few hours.

[Earl Grey]

1 minute ago, zerostao said:

How kind of you! Yes, please and thanks. 

I will repost back after a few hours.

Ideally with a full stomach—oh, the sacrifices you must make as a concierge. 😢 we salute you!

 

Spoiler

Would you like coffee with that?

Spoiler

 

 

 

[Nungali]

18 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

Vietnamese phô without cilantro is a crime. But I got s couple other Asian American friends who just hand me their cilantro and get disgusted when I load my bowl up with it. I regret nothing!

 

Guy at work used to call it 'kerosene weed' . I would have to cook his lunch steak ( which was about all he ever ate ) in a separate  fry pan as  the BBQ plate   had   cilantro ( here it's coriander )  on it ..... in the past , before I had cleaned it 

 

To him, it maintained a      ' supernatural presence '   .

 

Me ?  Luv it !   Chop it up and mix it with lime, garlic , chilli and these little zingers  ( after blackening and smashing them them up )

 

 

=  Tomatillo Salsa Verde

 

 

.................................

 

To me the 'supernatural' is like a vesica piscis ;  'the spirit world'  overlaps the material world , parts of both are separate and parts of both  can experience the other.  But there does seem a boundary ( for us ) - some areas we can go into , and gradually get deeper into , but there are  things and places in the 'spirit world' one cannot know or go ....... yet .

 

                Supranatural                      Supernatural                  Natural .

 

 

 

[Shadow_self]

On 23/01/2022 at 7:22 PM, Earl Grey said:

Empiricism in one example is the tastebud test: some people have an aversion to cilantro, and I can’t recall too well, but it was this blotter paper people were given in my university class that determined who hated it and who didn’t because the paper was disgusting to those who felt cilantro tasted like soap whereas  those who tasted nothing tended to enjoy cilantro.

 

21 hours ago, Iliketurtles said:

 

Dude I make salads out of fresh cilantro.   I love it.

 

19 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

Vietnamese phô without cilantro is a crime. But I got s couple other Asian American friends who just hand me their cilantro and get disgusted when I load my bowl up with it. I regret nothing!

 

19 hours ago, zerostao said:

kindly, pass the blotter paper, so I may check my taste buds. I tried blotter paper once and had all kinds of evidence for supernatural.

I'm willing to try that again, for the benefit of this thread. The things a concierge is willing to do for bums, really.

 

54 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Guy at work used to call it 'kerosene weed' . I would have to cook his lunch steak ( which was about all he ever ate ) in a separate  fry pan as  the BBQ plate   had   cilantro ( here it's coriander )  on it ..... in the past , before I had cleaned it 

 

To him, it maintained a      ' supernatural presence '   .

 

Me ?  Luv it !   Chop it up and mix it with lime, garlic , chilli and these little zingers  ( after blackening and smashing them them up )

 

 

=  Tomatillo Salsa Verde

 

 

.................................

 

To me the 'supernatural' is like a vesica piscis ;  'the spirit world'  overlaps the material world , parts of both are separate and parts of both  can experience the other.  But there does seem a boundary ( for us ) - some areas we can go into , and gradually get deeper into , but there are  things and places in the 'spirit world' one cannot know or go ....... yet .

 

                Supranatural                      Supernatural                  Natural .

 

 

 

 

Believe it or not, the soapyness in certain people isn't so much a subjective thing...rather it is related to a rather peculiar variation in a specific group of olfactory-receptor genes

 

https://flavourjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/2044-7248-1-22

[zerostao]

19 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

Ideally with a full stomach—oh, the sacrifices you must make as a concierge. 😢 we salute you!

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Would you like coffee with that?

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

[Earl Grey]

4 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

 

 

 

 

Believe it or not, the soapyness in certain people isn't so much a subjective thing...rather it is related to a rather peculiar variation in a specific group of olfactory-receptor genes

 

https://flavourjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/2044-7248-1-22

Yes, exactly what i was hoping to convey but left out the genetics part (crucial mistake). So we can’t rely on empirical evidence then alone since it is different for each person observing that soapy taste or not.

[mrpasserby]

,

Edited January 26, 2022 by mrpasserby
controversial subject

[Takingcharge]

On 25-11-2020 at 4:33 PM, freeform said:

Qi emission is more ‘objective’...

 

clouds move whether you will them or not - but you don’t usually receive electric shocks that travel through your body when people touch your hand... 

 

Animals and babies aren’t taken in by mental biases either - but they react just the same to Qi emission.

 

Qi emission is pretty ‘common’ once you’re accepted into the right ‘inner door’ groups.

 

But Qi emission can be faked - so you need to see something like that in person, for yourself.

 

Some examples of the effects of Nei Qi emission:

 

Example of Yang Qi emission:

More Yang Qi emission:

 

 

Its important to point out that these skills don’t mean these masters necessarily have a high level of spiritual attainment (which is what’s a lot more interesting for me) - or ethical development.

 

Also for me personally - seeing videos like this is not good enough evidence.

[edit] Though I’m as certain as I can be that these videos show genuine Qi emission - because I’ve either met these teachers or their senior students who can do the same.

But once you experience it over and over from many different people - many of whom have no vested interest... or maybe one day you even experience being able to do the same yourself... then that’s as good evidence as you’re gonna get.

 

These things are real.

They seem special - but once you understand the mechanics of it, the mysticism is dispelled - and it doesn’t seem all that supernatural at all. Just a combination of many years of dedicated practice and sincere application of genuine methods.

in the first video what the heck is going on there?? 
Some look possessed, w the screaming n yelling n behaving like animals. Whats going on there exactly?

[Nungali]

37 minutes ago, Takingcharge said:

in the first video what the heck is going on there?? 
Some look possessed, w the screaming n yelling n behaving like animals. Whats going on there exactly?

 

Possessed  .

 

Well, thats one term for it .  You never seen the Rajneesh people do their 'exercises' ? One in a group starts doing it then it spreads .  Fake martial arts ' no touch ' crap  'victims' often do it .  The classic fiasco on the beach with people running  at others and stopping them with 'chi' .... when the bad accident happens ... even their 'master' takes a dive to the ground and starts convulsing  .

 

I've seen it in a voodoo ceremony  and other similar similar tribal rights , it happens in church too .

 

Like  the hypnotically susceptible  ..... some are convulsively susceptible .   There are two types of it ; one where the muscles and  related structures  spasm in a type of short circuit, or a faulty nerve signal , the other a deeper psychological process that makes the body fit and spasm in attempts to release and remove 'blockages' that are  psychologically considered to be associated with certain body parts .   Eg some  'possession patients' complain of possession in , or strange imagined problems associated with,  certain body parts ;    sometimes in the head, but anywhere really  .

 

The closest I have come to experiencing it  was a conscious reaction I had  ( these people are having a reaction  from the unconscious ) when I had Ross River Fever   ; a cold freezing  stiffness/ pain / agony through my joints and bones ;  I had to do vigorous exercise several times during the night  - get my whole body moving , jumping shaking all the joints ,  that would give a little relief for about 20 mins  afterwards  but it was crazy .... like , I imagine ,   ' St Vitus Dance ' ;  Sydenham chorea    (a neuropsychiatric manifestation of rheumatic fever ) . 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, Takingcharge said:

in the first video what the heck is going on there?? 
Some look possessed, w the screaming n yelling n behaving like animals. Whats going on there exactly?

 

Zifagong  strong energetic movements, blockages and traumas being dislodged come up in all manner of behaviors

 

This type of thing also happens with a good purging/moving practice

 

Laughing, crying, screaming, spasming, singing, running, jumping, you get the idea. Sometimes the body will manifest mudras and mantras to aid the process.

 

I've known one individual to start singing in a very interesting, beautiful voice, yet another was snarling like a  demon

 

A good teacher might gently try to veer someone towards laughter as a means of dealing with the process, which would make it less difficult.

 

[Nungali]

A good teacher .... that keeps their eye on the student and then works with what comes up .

 

The rajneeshiees had a 'laughing meditation '  thingo  going .   It became weird  ..... a type of artificial forced laugh .  Then their  normal spontaneous laugh turned into that .... very creepy .  

 

I guess that is the result of doing stuff like that in a 'cult environment' .

 

So do it with a good teacher , if you go down  that path .

[freeform]

The Rajneesh practices weren’t what I’d call zifagong - like the above…

 

They're more like an induced mania. 
 

This can then turn into zifagong or spontaneous movement for some people - but from what I’ve seen in videos - for the majority it’s just a form of expressing and intensifying emotion. Stuff like primal scream or ‘ecstatic dance’ etc. These all fall into the same category.
 

It’s entertainment at best and quite damaging at worst (didn’t many people doing this primal scream therapy when it was all the rage end up with serious issues and suicides?)

 

Zifagong as a practice is different in that it’s the result of Yang qi stimulating the nervous system (before going deeper). That means that you don’t feel much emotion inside… you might be laughing or growling on the outside, but inside you’ll feel neutral - like an observer (unless you then actively promote the emotion arising as well - then it’s no longer a useful practice).

 

Imagine sending an electrical impulse into a knot of anger held in the body… the electrical impulse - just like the knee jerk response starts to release that knot - and it will express in various ways - sometimes as expressed anger… sometimes laughing… sometimes just shaking or even bounding around like a deer.

 

You don’t want to do it the other way round (imagine something that makes you angry… then express that anger and intensify it inside)… this does the opposite - it actually adds anger into the body - rather than releasing it.

[anshino23]

Like freeform says I can confirm I never personally experience big emotions welling up during Zifagong where it felt like I was actually experiencing them. It’s almost dissociative in a way. You’re just there as a witness while your body starts crying, lying on the floor, flailing it’s limbs around, going into weird mudras and asanas, saying strangest sounds and so forth… all the while internally you’re just watching it all happen.

 

It’s weird but literally just feels like the body is defragmenting parts of the unconscious as the Qi hits through various blockages. 

[freeform]

On 02/11/2022 at 8:29 PM, Nungali said:

The classic fiasco on the beach with people running  at others and stopping them with 'chi' .... when the bad accident happens ... even their 'master' takes a dive to the ground and starts convulsing 

Haha - that’s a classic!

 

Yes that’s also zifagong… it’s just these people think that zifagong is ‘magical’… (it’s not)

 

It’s about as magical as taking a wee… but equally as useful  

[Shadow_self]

On 02/11/2022 at 8:29 PM, Nungali said:

The classic fiasco on the beach with people running  at others and stopping them with 'chi' .... when the bad accident happens ... even their 'master' takes a dive to the ground and starts convulsing  .

 

4 hours ago, freeform said:

Haha - that’s a classic!

 

 

I just cant help myself  

 

 

[Nungali]

< cock my ear >  ....   Did he end that with;  'Ok ... come and join us in the temple ?'  (in an ever so calm and spiritually advanced voice ) .

 

Gonna break out the classics are ya ? 

 

I shall see your Yellow Bamboo ... and raise you one Lama Dandrup ;

 

Tibetan Master with fake aikido skills makes would be Sanyassins do Zifagong shuffle ;

 

( hang on, I will get my flute out .... )

 

 

 

 

My fav is the guy at 1:50 , everyone else behind him has hopped and bounced away , but he cant tell and just keeps going , then he has to do three backward rolls in a row to catch up with the others   

 

 

So ....  we got the Zifagong explanation ... and thats  weird enough .... but the REALLY    weird thing  is , what makes people behave like   that   ^    .  They are doing it all over the place ! 

 

I 'fought' one of those guys once      ,  well, not one of those guys , one of 'those guys' students .   He wasnt a bad guy, just really stupid and mouthy ,  ( he said his teacher could come to my place and put me on my arse without touching me so I asked him to show me how he does that  )   so  I didnt hurt him ;  he got a light finger touch on an eye lid and  a big toe flick kick on his scrotum - he freaked out !   " You jabbed me in the eye  ... you kicked me in the balls ! "  

 

" No I didnt , I touched your eye lid , I kicked your scrotum , are either of them  hurting ? "

 

" Well, no ..... but   ..... I felt it . "

 

" I stopped in time ,  I did  kick your scrotum  but didnt penetrate to the testicles . .  and note , all that during a scuffle while you where trying to hit me ... even though you do 'no hit '   magic tai chi    ."

 

" Thats too risky man !  I could have got hurt ! "

 

   

 

" Okay, we will stop there then , send your  teacher here , he can use ' magic chi'  on me , and I will be going for his eyes, nuts, kneecaps and throat , "

 

" Thta's a bit heavy . "

 

'Hey .... You  where the one that said you where going to send someone here to my patch to  put me on my arse !  I dont take kindly to threatened home invasions ."

 

- some people !    Brain needs to be in gear before you let out the mouth clutch .

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

< cock my ear >  ....   Did he end that with;  'Ok ... come and join us in the temple ?'  (in an ever so calm and spiritually advanced voice ) .

 

Gonna break out the classics are ya ? 

 

I shall see your Yellow Bamboo ... and raise you one Lama Dandrup ;

 

Tibetan Master with fake aikido skills makes would be Sanyassins do Zifagong shuffle ;

 

( hang on, I will get my flute out .... )

 

 

 

 

My fav is the guy at 1:50 , everyone else behind him has hopped and bounced away , but he cant tell and just keeps going , then he has to do three backward rolls in a row to catch up with the others   

 

 

So ....  we got the Zifagong explanation ... and thats  weird enough .... but the REALLY    weird thing  is , what makes people behave like   that   ^    .  They are doing it all over the place ! 

 

I 'fought' one of those guys once      ,  well, not one of those guys , one of 'those guys' students .   He wasnt a bad guy, just really stupid and mouthy ,  ( he said his teacher could come to my place and put me on my arse without touching me so I asked him to show me how he does that  )   so  I didnt hurt him ;  he got a light finger touch on an eye lid and  a big toe flick kick on his scrotum - he freaked out !   " You jabbed me in the eye  ... you kicked me in the balls ! "  

 

" No I didnt , I touched your eye lid , I kicked your scrotum , are either of them  hurting ? "

 

" Well, no ..... but   ..... I felt it . "

 

" I stopped in time ,  I did  kick your scrotum  but didnt penetrate to the testicles . .  and note , all that during a scuffle while you where trying to hit me ... even though you do 'no hit '   magic tai chi    ."

 

" Thats too risky man !  I could have got hurt ! "

 

   

 

" Okay, we will stop there then , send your  teacher here , he can use ' magic chi'  on me , and I will be going for his eyes, nuts, kneecaps and throat , "

 

" Thta's a bit heavy . "

 

'Hey .... You  where the one that said you where going to send someone here to my patch to  put me on my arse !  I dont take kindly to threatened home invasions ."

 

- some people !    Brain needs to be in gear before you let out the mouth clutch .

 

All will be healed in the temple  

 

Full video below if people want a bit of context

 

 

Haha there is a lot to unpack here to be honest...

 

Im going to hazard a guess that the same thing making the human Slinkies bounce around is the same thing making these folk thing they are being knocked out by qi  

 

 

 

 

 

With the whole teacher student thing. I do think there is something here related to Fajin (this is more of a Taiji thing), It could be familiarity with a persons physical structure?  The quality of the opponents tissues I believe also make a difference.

 

So you might not get an identical result from different people.

 

There are far more qualified people than I who can talk about that. I'm not into it other than some drills for Song

 

 It is a fair degree less esoteric than qi manipulation, but looks equally fantastic from the outside

 

I understand what you mean, though when the brain isn't in gear and the mouth moves, a few knuckle sandwiches tend to help people come back to reality in terms of their ability very quickly