Evidnece for the super natural

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, dmattwads said:

What about starting from the baseline of the materialist atheist who says there is nothing beyond the physical reality that science can verify and that all these other things that we think of as being metaphysical are just the brain's ability to abstract?

 

Thats the baseline ?

 

Not for a cultural anthropologist it isnt .  Thats just the current   western materialist  view of 'reality' .  It is trying to become a dominant world paradigm though . But that CANT change the immensity of all human experience that has gone on before this view developed .

 

Even if it is the 'brains ability to abstract '  , what is it abstracting ?

 

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

  Thats just the current   western materialist  view of 'reality' .

 

That's the baseline in the west I was referring to.

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

The first step when starting with a materialist atheist is to soften his mindset. This is where I find weather magic (or other basic magics with obviously observable effects) useful. By showing the materialist atheist how he himself can change the weather against the odds through certain rituals, that mindset begins to soften up.

 

Really ?   Please  soften up my mindset by supplying me with rituals  that will allow me myself to be able to change the weather .

 

  

 

 

 

10 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

 

 

 

Once his mindset softens up, he can begin to properly work through "supernatural" experiences with less bias and will allow him to process what he sees much easier. This is also applicable with fanatic believers, but the process is somewhat reversed. 

 

 

You mean , supply them with a ritual that doesnt work       

 

 

10 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

 

If we were to compare mindsets to yin and yang, materialist atheists are extreme yin, whereas fanatic believers are extreme yang. One extreme pushed too far can switch itself for the lesser opposite, so the two viable methods of easing one such person out of that mindset are to push them further into the material (towards further yin), or to ease them out of the material (towards lesser yin). If you push them towards further yin, their switch can end up being explosive and dangerous to themselves, and they can easily fall into more traps. If you ease them out of their extreme yin mindset, it becomes easier for them to find the answers they seek. 

 

This is something I personally find rather amusing, as the types that typically dominate debates about the supernatural are either materialist atheists (who will argue against the supernatural at all costs, even at the loss of their own reason) or fanatic believers (who will argue for the supernatural at all costs, even at the loss of their reason). Neither side is truly ready to approach the subject, as they are both too unbalanced, but due to the nature of their disbalance, they end up attracted to the subject. It's as if they know they're mistaken somewhere, but can't truly find where without outside help. 

 

Yeah, arguing is pointless .  So I await your ritual which will allow   ME   to change the weather .

 

But I guess the ritual I am going to get depends on whether  YOU think I am overtly materialistic or overtly  'fantastic believer ' .

[Nungali]

6 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

That's the baseline in the west I was referring to.

 

yeah, but for me its an invalid baseline to start from .     As I see it as a minor ' uprising '  (if one can remove ones  viewpoint  from ones own times and social situation ) .

[Maddie]

11 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

yeah, but for me its an invalid baseline to start from .     As I see it as a minor ' uprising '  (if one can remove ones  viewpoint  from ones own times and social situation ) .

 

The reason I think it is a fair base line is because the materialist atheist has a point we are able to prove the existence of what we can measure and observe from an objective point of view. Things that we can not do this with become problematic to "prove" objectively. This is not to say that our instruments can detect everything yet (something I think science forgets) but at the moment at least there are supernatural claims that go beyond the means of science to measure. So how do we demonstrate that these things are "real" and not just the workings of the imagination? 

[Paradoxal]

16 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Really ?   Please  soften up my mindset by supplying me with rituals  that will allow me myself to be able to change the weather .

I would have expected you to already know one; how interesting. Nonetheless, the "ritual" is as follows:

Hold your hands as if you were holding a ball, and visualize a ball of energy in said hand. It would be a good practice to keep focusing on visualizing it for a few minutes, if you are not experienced in energy work. Once you have the ball solidly constructed, focus on "commanding" the weather to change in your favor. An example command would be "Rain tomorrow at 4pm at this location", but as long as it is specific and you give it enough time to work, it should be fine. The longer time you give it between the spell and the specified event, the higher the success rate will be, at least, in my experience. Focus on imbuing said "ball" with that command, and intend for it to work. After spending a good time focusing on the intent, for beginners somewhere around 1-3 minutes is usually plenty, act as if you are throwing the ball to the clouds. "See" the ball leaving your hands and entering the sky, where it bursts and scatters across the world. 

 

Compare weather forecasts before you cast it, see if it works, and note down the results. It's common to fail, but it's also common to succeed beyond statistical probability. Repeating said experiment over and over again over the course of a few weeks to a month should provide enough data. 

 

One thing I should note, however, is that once the person begins to understand that there is more out there, it is important for them to direct their attention to other sets of actions, rather than this one spell, as changing the weather does have significant karmic consequences. Unfortunately, it's the only spell with concrete, measurable results that I know I can teach others regardless of their talent or my proximity to them, so it is the one of the most reliable ways to soften their mindset that I have found. Other than this one, it is possible to do so via predicting the future using tarot cards, but that one is only available for those with that particular skillset. 

[Nungali]

Well, thats the inherent problem with starting off as that as a baseline .

 

For a start, what IS 'imagination'   -  how do we define it  ? In the current materialistic western sense  or in its 'overall sense '  ( that is, by taking into account the human experience throughout all times locations and cultures  )  ?

 

The term itself  'just the workings of the imagination' defines imagination  away from 'reality'  and  as being somewhat invalid .   The workings of the imagination can be 'real'   (and again, what are we defining as 'real' ?   The modern western materialistic paradigm , or the totality of human experience ?

 

This might help  ...

 

Gyrus: The threefold division of ‘body, soul & spirit’, as opposed to the dualistic mind/body model so common in our culture, seems central to your work. Could you sketch it briefly, and discuss how you feel “soul” has come to be distorted, misunderstood, or lost?

 

;

 

https://dreamflesh.com/interview/animated-world-patrick-harpur/

 

 

 

[Maddie]

6 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Well, thats the inherent problem with starting off as that as a baseline .

 

For a start, what IS 'imagination'   -  how do we define it  ? In the current materialistic western sense  or in its 'overall sense '  ( that is, by taking into account the human experience throughout all times locations and cultures  )  ?

 

The term itself  'just the workings of the imagination' defines imagination  away from 'reality'  and  as being somewhat invalid .   The workings of the imagination can be 'real'   (and again, what are we defining as 'real' ?   The modern western materialistic paradigm , or the totality of human experience ?

 

This might help  ...

 

Gyrus: The threefold division of ‘body, soul & spirit’, as opposed to the dualistic mind/body model so common in our culture, seems central to your work. Could you sketch it briefly, and discuss how you feel “soul” has come to be distorted, misunderstood, or lost?

 

;

 

https://dreamflesh.com/interview/animated-world-patrick-harpur/

 

 

 

 

Imagination is the ability of the mind to visualize and think about things that are not currently present. One can imagine a pizza in their mind without actually having a pizza.

 

There is value in wanting to quantify the reality of things otherwise we open ourselves up to delusion. If I were to tell you that last night a twenty foot tall unicorn princess appeared to me and said I need to spread the word that all who do not worship the unicorn princess and make regular cash donations to her priest (the priest being me) will be doomed to eternity in hell would probably cause you to want some sort of proof before feeling obligated to worship the unicorn princess and make your cash donation. Investigating the validity of this claim would be reasonable. The first thing you would want to know most likely is how to know if I wasn't just making this up or having some sort of hallucination as a result of a substance or a form of neurosis. You would want to know by what means I could show you this was true.

[Nungali]

2 minutes ago, Paradoxal said:

I would have expected you to already know one; how interesting

 

Of course I do . many in fact , but not as you seemed to imply  ;  " By showing the materialist atheist how he himself can change the weather against the odds through certain rituals "   

 

against the odds ... thats the bit I am referring to   , and see below *

 

2 minutes ago, Paradoxal said:

 

. Nonetheless, the "ritual" is as follows:

Hold your hands as if you were holding a ball, and visualize a ball of energy in said hand. It would be a good practice to keep focusing on visualizing it for a few minutes, if you are not experienced in energy work. Once you have the ball solidly constructed, focus on "commanding" the weather to change in your favor. An example command would be "Rain tomorrow at 4pm at this location", but as long as it is specific and you give it enough time to work, it should be fine. The longer time you give it between the spell and the specified event, the higher the success rate will be, at least, in my experience. Focus on imbuing said "ball" with that command, and intend for it to work. After spending a good time focusing on the intent, for beginners somewhere around 1-3 minutes is usually plenty, act as if you are throwing the ball to the clouds. "See" the ball leaving your hands and entering the sky, where it bursts and scatters across the world. 

 

Compare weather forecasts before you cast it, see if it works, and note down the results. It's common to fail, but it's also common to succeed beyond statistical probability. Repeating said experiment over and over again over the course of a few weeks to a month should provide enough data. 

 

 

My ritual magical practice was done in the school of  'Scientific Illuminism' so I realise the importance of recording and later collating data .

 

The thing is, my data and results do not suggest the  'higher success rate' that you do .   Maybe this suggests a factor of the level of skill of the operator ?  In that case the experiment would seem invalid in regard to   any person trying it , especially the sceptic .

 

2 minutes ago, Paradoxal said:

 

One thing I should note, however, is that once the person begins to understand that there is more out there, it is important for them to direct their attention to other sets of actions, rather than this one spell, as changing the weather does have significant karmic consequences. Unfortunately, it's the only spell with concrete, measurable results that I know I can teach others regardless of their talent or my proximity to them, so it is the one of the most reliable ways to soften their mindset that I have found. Other than this one, it is possible to do so via predicting the future using tarot cards, but that one is only available for those with that particular skillset. 

 

I did  professional tarot for many years .   Yes, there where some that thought I proved  certain things by my readings .

 

 

[Paradoxal]

4 minutes ago, Nungali said:

The thing is, my data and results do not suggest the  'higher success rate' that you do .   Maybe this suggests a factor of the level of skill of the operator ?  In that case the experiment would seem invalid in regard to   any person trying it , especially the sceptic .

I'm unsure on that. The skill level and talent of the operator do factor into the success rate, but I have found that it still retains a fairly high success rate even for those without the prerequisite skill, at least, among the people I have directly taught and compared notes with. I recall the thing that seemed to change one particular student's mind was when they had cast the spell on a day with a 0.5% chance of rain, and it ended up storming. Nonetheless, weather forecasts are notoriously inaccurate, so it definitely must be repeated a multitude of times. 

 

8 minutes ago, Nungali said:

I did  professional tarot for many years .   Yes, there where some that thought I proved  certain things by my readings .

 

I've never considered professional tarot a viable possibility for employment. How did you get clients? Was it mostly remote or in person? Why did you end up quitting (if you did)?

 

[Nungali]

1 minute ago, dmattwads said:

 

Imagination is the ability of the mind to visualize and think about things that are not currently present. One can imagine a pizza in their mind without actually having a pizza.

 

 

 is it ?   Thats all  ? 

 

I can imagine a pizza that is present right in front of me .  I can  'imagine;  myself standing over there in the middle of the room .... I can even 'make' that 'imagined' self   perform kata and bunkai with 'another'    'imagined ' self  that results in new techniques that I can then take to physical training .

 

I can be affected by   something     and imagine it was a UFO .... a  saint  .... fairies ... my ancestors  .... but my 'imagining ' just gives form to an experience, IMO it does not invalidate it .

 

Science tries to invalidate it by saying  ; " Well   X  saw a fairy  but   Y  saw an ancestor , therefore  imagination (and  the  experience  ) was invalid . "

 

 

1 minute ago, dmattwads said:

 

There is value in wanting to quantify the reality of things otherwise we open ourselves up to delusion. If I were to tell you that last night a twenty foot tall unicorn princess appeared to me and said I need to spread the word that all who do not worship the unicorn princess and make regular cash donations to her priest (the priest being me) will be doomed to eternity in hell would probably cause you to want some sort of proof before feeling obligated to worship the unicorn princess and make your cash donation. Investigating the validity of this claim would be reasonable. The first thing you would want to know most likely is how to know if I wasn't just making this up or having some sort of hallucination as a result of a substance or a form of neurosis. You would want to know by what means I could show you this was true.

 

Of sure, I do get that  ... should be obvious from my posting  over the years .

 

And I am admitting it has some value  (otherwise what;s the point of 'scientific illuminism ' )    ,  not just a good baseline to judge from . I say use that but  the other stuff as well  and for me the baseline will be the totality of human experience    not  JUST  a current manifestation of one of them .

[Maddie]

4 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

I can be affected by   something     and imagine it was a UFO .... a  saint  .... fairies ... my ancestors  .... but my 'imagining ' just gives form to an experience, IMO it does not invalidate it .

 

Science tries to invalidate it by saying  ; " Well   X  saw a fairy  but   Y  saw an ancestor , therefore  imagination (and  the  experience  ) was invalid . "

 

 

The goal of science isn't to invalidate anything (though this may happen as a by product) but rather to validate what can be measured and observed. It is for this reason that I used the word "base line".

[Nungali]

2 minutes ago, Paradoxal said:

I'm unsure on that. The skill level and talent of the operator do factor into the success rate, but I have found that it still retains a fairly high success rate even for those without the prerequisite skill, at least, among the people I have directly taught and compared notes with. I recall the thing that seemed to change one particular student's mind was when they had cast the spell on a day with a 0.5% chance of rain, and it ended up storming. Nonetheless, weather forecasts are notoriously inaccurate, so it definitely must be repeated a multitude of times. 

 

 

I've never considered professional tarot a viable possibility for employment. How did you get clients? Was it mostly remote or in person? Why did you end up quitting (if you did)?

 

 

 

A combination of things ;   put up some adverts , I had a stall at the local markets  ... word of mouth .  Always in person .   I ended up quitting as people wanted mundane results ; predictions about money sex power love and holidays and NOT the really valuable advice  and systems tarot contains .

 

I have noticed in my small country town a new 'shop' - tarot , psychic readings and talismans . There is a sign out on the footpath, down a small arcade that leads to stairs and a one floor apartment  above the shop downstairs .   I guess they live in , have clients in home and a home on the main street , that probably works , especial since it is $66 for 33 minuets !   - couple of hours a day, then go down the beach   

 

I went to have peek and intro, but the door is always shut  and sign ;   ' Consultation in session - please do not disturb. '

[Nungali]

4 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

The goal of science isn't to invalidate anything (though this may happen as a by product) but rather to validate what can be measured and observed. It is for this reason that I used the word "base line".

 

   .   

 

 

I am not saying that  goal of science is to invalidate things

 

I am saying that    saying it was  " just imagination "  is an invalidation based on the viewpoints of modern western scientific materialism .

[Paradoxal]

2 minutes ago, Nungali said:

I ended up quitting as people wanted mundane results ; predictions about money sex power love and holidays and NOT the really valuable advice  and systems tarot contains .

That's not surprising, but it is saddening in a way.

As a college student, though, this does give me some hope of income, so I appreciate you bringing up the possibility of using tarot as a profession. I'd probably end up doing most of it online, but perhaps it could work for me.

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

   .   

 

 

I am not saying that  goal of science is to invalidate things

 

I am saying that    saying it was  " just imagination "  is an invalidation based on the viewpoints of modern western scientific materialism .

 

Of course the experience of imagining is real, even neuroscience will say as much, but that does not mean that the thing imagined is real, unless of course its Kings Cross train station immediately after destroying a horcrux by sort of dying.

[Nungali]

Paradoxal ; 

That's not surprising, but it is saddening in a way.

As a college student, though, this does give me some hope of income, so I appreciate you bringing up the possibility of using tarot as a profession. I'd probably end up doing most of it online, but perhaps it could work for me.

 

It depends . Back then when I did that I wasn't building and having to buy material  , nor running 2 cars and a motorcycle , no rent , growing a lot of my own food and access to very cheap supplies , no debts  ( I still dont believe in  nor have debt ) , everything was a LOT cheaper relatively . It depends how much dosh you need

Edited December 7, 2020 by Nungali

[Nungali]

3 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

Of course the experience of imagining is real, even neuroscience will say as much, but that does not mean that the thing imagined is real, unless of course its Kings Cross train station immediately after destroying a horcrux by sort of dying.

 

I dont think you will 'get' what I am saying without  some further /  background  reading . Thats why I included that link in my above post 

 

.

[Maddie]

3 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

I dont think you will 'get' what I am saying without  some further /  background  reading . Thats why I included that link in my above post 

 

.

 

Fair enough, I'll have to read that later when I have a little more free time.

[Mithras]

I like what Paradoxal said about softening the mind. What I personally think is important when softening the mind, is letting loose of distinctions and biases a bit. As for Paradoxal's ritual, it's a nice one, and it's success rate is more correlated to one's personal belief in their ability/perspective. A good perspective is realizing that one is the creator and becoming more familiar with the idea through practice or personal experiences. As the idea becomes more cemented, success rates increase.

On the contrary, a perspective of one's insignificance and comparisons like this is a god and I am a human, akin to an ant, often stagnate with very little growth. Thus,  I can only say that trust in structure and distinctions perpetuates mundanity, while letting go of distinction leads to a more fantastic perspective.

 

So if you want evidence for the supernatural, just let go a little. Meditations a good way to do this, but there's other ways to like practicing rituals or even becoming more laid back. Drifting into where fantastic and mundane are of equal distinction, is a good sign.

Edited December 7, 2020 by Mithras

[welkin]

On 12/2/2020 at 1:32 PM, dmattwads said:

The direction this thread went was unexpected by me. I suppose I had assumed people would be contemplating the existence or non-existence of "the gods" or other spiritual beings. I didn't really expect it to take the "qi powers" route that it took.

 

 That being said I would like to hear people's thoughts on the existence of deities and other such beings.

 

I don't think it's as important to prove the existence of the supernatural/God to others, as it is important to prove it to one's self. What I mean is differentiating the circumstantial truth/reality from the delusion one might create for themselves through greed and ego. It also doesn't mean that one doesn't find delusion along the way to experiencing truth or reality of the supernatural. They're very near each other and possibly mixed.

 

It is also very difficult to prove it to another, especially if in an early stage of the supernatural experiences for the reasons mentioned above. Especially because the proof is typically not from one big experience, but from chunks of experiences separated by time and circumstances. And during those in-between times, it did require what you would call delusional/non supernatural/physical realm thinking experiences to get to the next truly supernatural experience. If you were to try to explain that to just anyone, they're minds wouldn't have the capability to comprehend. And then we speak about those who could potentially comprehend, but aren't even near that experiential level to make anything of it. They are few and far in between, who could comprehend each other's experiences as a group because they are of similar mind and experiences, maybe cut from the same cloth.

 

And those supernatural experiences most definitely do not come from knowledge (one reads or learns) alone, and many times doesn't require it at all. If anything that knowledge and what one reads may be the very delusion one creates based on wanting to experience it so badly. Quite possibly that itself is supernatural, as we ourselves come from the supernatural source. And so we can delusionally create those experiences and manifest them. But it is the type of supernatural i'd rather not be a part of as it may or may not be solely mind driven. That is why it is stupid to judge or reject another's 'supernatural' experiences, judging them of ego and what not. Because you simply don't know. That criticism of others' is  most likely they're own criticism of themselves as well as. Even if they're right about criticizing another's experience as egotistical and delusional, they're probably subconsciously correct about themselves as well.

 

 

 

[welkin]

On 12/2/2020 at 1:32 PM, dmattwads said:

The direction this thread went was unexpected by me. I suppose I had assumed people would be contemplating the existence or non-existence of "the gods" or other spiritual beings. I didn't really expect it to take the "qi powers" route that it took.

 

 That being said I would like to hear people's thoughts on the existence of deities and other such beings.

 

In regards to my own personal thoughts and experiences. There a few types of measures i use.

 

One is how the supernatural becomes involved in your experience along with physical reality. For example, 2 days after Notre Dame burned down, I feel asleep for 10 seconds. During those 10 seconds, i dreamt that the crown of thorns was in smoke (not in flames), and melting away. At the time, i was completely, aware that the crown of thorns existed or was even kept at the Notre Dame Church. Only after the dream did i look it up and find that out.

 

 

Another way is being guided to find physical evidence in something let's say 500 years ago and you find it on yourself and as a result find other specific relations to it.

 

These are only a couple, there are many more that just need to remain private, just as anyone should keep them private as they don't matter for others to know.

 

What's interesting is that supernatural or Godly intervention is always created, but in the most subtle of ways. When ones gets to a specific point, and requires physical proof for our physical monkey brains, God/supernatural provides it when necessary.

 

And much less, will the supernatural reveal itself to the masses. When one gets to a certain level of understanding, experience, and maturity, i believe one is not only allowed but allow themselves to prove and show to a few. It comes full circle. God guided and showed you in a specific way. Then one experiences, learns, and understands why one too would teach and show in the same way to others.

 

More proof that it is not for everyone to experience these things is that this duty/purpose exists even prior to or during your birth. So it's also hard for a person on a physical earthly ego level to take credit for any of it.

 

care, love, duty, purpose. Maybe God will show up if we try.

 

[blue eyed snake]

 

 

sorry, double post

need to get the hang of it again

Edited January 15, 2022 by blue eyed snake

[blue eyed snake]

On 20-11-2020 at 2:58 PM, freeform said:

But there is no way to make that experience objective... even with impartial observers, even with video evidence, even with adjudicators checking for foul play - someone will be able to find a way to discredit it.

 

I remember reading a study/paper where some healers laid there hands in closed dark boxes. Then they were asked to do whatever they did when healing with their hands.

When I remember it well the results showed that there were measurable amount of err...photoelectric or something.... thingies/waves. The amount of thingies/waves was different, all of the participants showed those thingies/waves, one of the healers had a very high score, as in, much higher then the others.

 

( this was in the time I started doing practice and was skeptical, thus I was looking for 'proof' )

 

not sure whether I can find it back, 't was a dutch study

[freeform]

12 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

When I remember it well the results showed that there were measurable amount of err...photoelectric or something.... thingies/waves.

Yeah there’s lots of stuff like this… the thing with science is that you need to repeat it hundreds or thousands of times to reach a certain level of statistical significance to show any kind of ‘proof’ that would be of relevance in the scientific community.

 

Not only does that cost a lot - but try finding thousands of genuine healers who all agree to do this - and are capable of doing it at the time and place selected.

 

But things can certainly be quite objective in a personal sort of way.

 

I can emit qi in a very palpable way for instance. It affects animals… it affected a man in a coma (leg started spasming for the first time). I can make some electric meters move… I can make patterns in magnetic field paper etc. All the senior students of my teacher can do this. There’s lots of schools in Asia that can do it.

 

It seems reasonably ‘objective’ - but for a scientist this would be an anomaly and would not count as scientific ‘proof’. I’m sure someone would be able to (whether credibly or not) introduce enough doubt as to ‘debunk’ it or make it appear inconclusive.
 

Though proving anything to anyone is of no interest to me - it’s just useful form of personal feedback to see if my channels are open or if qi has reached a certain level of density.

 

I’m really against attempting to prove this sort of stuff. I’ll leave that to someone else