Help me interpert yijing divination results

[Michael Sternbach]

4 hours ago, waterdrop said:

what way exactly you mean ? 

 

The Yijing commented on your attitude towards the issue rather than on the issue itself.

 

This is because you dismissed the correct answer you originally received as  irrelevant, since you assumed the question you had asked to be invalid.

 

Further, you said you wanted to "test" the Yijing. But as a matter of fact, it kind of tested you!

[Taomeow]

48 minutes ago, Harmen said:

 

I appreciate your sarcasm. Just look at old examples of Yi usage, and oracles in general. Examine the oracle bones, and divination journals like the Baoshan manuscripts. You will see that there were no questions asked - the diviner stated a wish, or affirmation if you like. I don't know any (early Chinese) sources that show that the question or its phrasing was considered important. When in later times questions were asked (especially with the Wenwang Gua method), they were often phrased as yes/no questions. And no one ever objected to that. Saying that the Yi does not answer yes/no questions seems to be a typical Western attitude that is not backed up by early Chinese sources. Even Zhu Xi, in the incantation and rules that he gives in his Zhouyi Benyi, does not say anything about (the importance of) the question.

 

I actually deleted the sarcastic part because I felt you wouldn't draw the conclusions I was hoping for, but you beat me to it and quoted faster.  

 

If you don't understand the difference between a beginner asking a question (which was what was being addressed -- I was trying to help a beginner find a useful and comprehensible approach to working with the oracle) and a seasoned, experienced, lineage taught  diviner and scholar using the I Ching in multiple ways toward multiple purposes as part of a routine relationship established with the oracle, you are, correct me if I'm wrong, of the former category. 

[Taomeow]

Edit: double post

Edited November 23, 2020 by Taomeow

[waterdrop]

That is interesting .           maybe you can say a word about how exactly you interpert it as such ?   cause i would love to be able to discern that myself in future    
 

Quote

hexagram  61        with sixth (changing yin)    in the third  and nine (changing yang)  in the fifth and also the six line        ...........   so hexagram change to 11     ...............   and hidden hexagram is 27 

 

Quote

The Yijing commented on your attitude towards the issue rather than on the issue itself. 

What in the results  makes you think that way ?   


 

[Harmen]

5 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

If you don't understand the difference between a beginner asking a question (which was what was being addressed -- I was trying to help a beginner find a useful and comprehensible approach to working with the oracle) and a seasoned, experienced, lineage taught  diviner and scholar using the I Ching in multiple ways toward multiple purposes as part of a routine relationship established with the oracle, you are, correct me if I'm wrong, of the former category. 

 

Irrelevant. You said, "You may want to rephrase the questions.  The I Ching can't answer any yes/no questions, nor any either/or questions." I disagree, and I told you why.

[Taomeow]

37 minutes ago, Harmen said:

 

Irrelevant. You said, "You may want to rephrase the questions.  The I Ching can't answer any yes/no questions, nor any either/or questions." I disagree, and I told you why.

 

Not irrelevant if I don't think you are prepared for this conversation.  You are guided by a burning desire to win an argument you created out of thin air, and in all likelihood by your extensive experience of taking all those multiple choice tests in school where you had to mark the "yes" or "no" answer in a designated square.  This is your most familiar and most handy hammer, so the I Ching looks like a nail to you.  Fine.  Keep hammering away.  Not my circus, not my monkeys.  

Edited November 23, 2020 by Taomeow

[Harmen]

1 minute ago, Taomeow said:

You are guided by a burning desire to win an argument

 

I am not 'guided', there is no 'burning desire', nor is there an argument to win. I simply disagree with your statement that you presented as if it is a fact, and I told you why. You, however, have only backed up your assumption by saying "others told me that this is how it is." That's not very helpful.

 

Read up on oracles and their usage in early China, and you will understand what I mean.

[Taomeow]

6 minutes ago, Harmen said:

 

I am not 'guided', there is no 'burning desire', nor is there an argument to win. I simply disagree with your statement that you presented as if it is a fact, and I told you why. You, however, have only backed up your assumption by saying "others told me that this is how it is." That's not very helpful.

 

Read up on oracles and their usage in early China, and you will understand what I mean.

 

You can't tell me to "read up" on anything, do you understand what I mean?  You could have a friendly discussion with me over whatever you disagree about and why and wherefore and maybe learn something in the process, but instead you spectacularly opened with "This is not true"and proceeded to lord it over to me as though you're appointing yourself my teacher or Bob my uncle or whatever else you think you are that is above and in the position to talk down to me.  Got enough mansplaining out of your system?  Scratched that itch?  Feel better now?  Good for you.  Now please stop already.

[Harmen]

1 minute ago, Taomeow said:

 

You can't tell me to "read up" on anything, do you understand what I mean?  You could have a friendly discussion with me over whatever you disagree about and why and wherefore and maybe learn something in the process, but instead you spectacularly opened with "This is not true"and proceeded to lord it over to me as though you're appointing yourself my teacher or Bob my uncle or whatever else you think you are that is above and in the position to talk down to me.  Got enough mansplaining out of your system?  Scratched that itch?  Feel better now?  Good for you.  Now please stop already.

 

Well, from my point of view it really isn't true. And I have sources to back it up. For starters, you could begin reading the articles in the 'forum' of  Early China 14 (Vol. 14, 1989 of Early China on JSTOR), as well as this article by Dan Yuchen 單育辰, 《戰國卜筮簡“尚”的意義 —兼說先秦典籍中的“尚” 》.

 

From your point of view apparently it is true, but you don't explain why. Pity.

 

This is a discussion forum. Don't tell someone to stop discussing, simply because you don't have an appropriate reply. You can try to make it personal, but I'm not bothered by that.

[Taomeow]

2 minutes ago, Harmen said:

From your point of view apparently it is true, but you don't explain why. Pity.

 

But I did. 

 

[ilumairen]

On 11/18/2020 at 3:25 PM, waterdrop said:

If anyone else reads something for example i dont understand is  - how i read a changing of hexagram  - if i only asked on past effect ?

and if its past up to present  - than it seems there was a positive change from my results  (if i got it right cause 11 seems positive- so i base my understanding on that)     but de facto in reality i had a change for the worst  so it seems the yijing result i got was not good

Perhaps past effect is still playing out? 

[ilumairen]

6 hours ago, silent thunder said:

I'm not answering for Michael, but I've experienced these types of cheeky answers.

 

There was a time when I, or friends I did readings for, were asking for insights and received answers that seemed unintelligible and or odd.

 

Particularly it seemed to occur when i, or another, consulted the runes too often, or asked the animals for insight into something insipid, or frivolous... (or something we already knew the answer to), the answer often reflected the 'cheekiness'/frivolity of the question and came back as non-sensical, or comical.

Many years ago, over an extended period of time, I asked (and queried about) what amounted to the same question (and not as direct queries) in myriad ways, and invariably (in what would amount to a statistical anomaly to most) received the exact same answer each and every time. 

 

It was like being thumped over the head with, “you already know,” and “I already told you.” 
 

I apologized and accepted.

[Michael Sternbach]

36 minutes ago, waterdrop said:

That is interesting .           maybe you can say a word about how exactly you interpert it as such ?   cause i would love to be able to discern that myself in future    
 

 

What in the results  makes you think that way ?   


 

 

Very well. You asked for it!

 

The general text of hexagram 61 encourages you to connect with the fundamental wisdom found within you.

 

Reproducing some of the most obviously relevant statements from my preferred online Yijing version on divination.com:

 

"Truth becomes power when you let go of prejudice and make yourself receptive to the world as it really is ... It is achieved only by those who cultivate a genuine openness to the way things are and possess a willingness to see into the heart of things, rather than to merely looking at appearances."

 

And a bit further down the page:

 

"...if you cloak mysteries with dogma, opportunities for insight will be lost. If you waver in upholding your principles, you will be tested. Yet when you are firm and strong, the power of truth can break through even the most stubborn minds (including your own)."

 

The third line provides further hints:

 

"The life of a person who looks to others for truth and purpose is like a ship tossing on the sea: until the ship’s anchor is dropped to the ocean floor, there will be no stability in the rolling waves ...
Inner truth must be rooted in your own perceptions and experience. At the gate of the palace of truth, each of us stands alone. Dare to know your own mind—and speak it when the time is right!"

 

This again is clear advice to more look inside yourself rather than to turn to others for advice!

 

Line 5 however suggests that there is benefit to be gained from coming in touch with people that can provide genuine guidance in this matter:

 

"Unity is possible when the force of an integrated personality can radiate influence. Such a person guides through the power of suggestion: the prosperity that resides in this leader’s heart affects others through his or her very existence. If such a person is true at heart, coming into his or her circle of influence brings great good fortune."

 

Well, initially, it was the following quote which you presented yourself that led me to my conclusion:

 

Nine at the top means:

Cockcrow penetrating to heaven.
Perseverance brings misfortune.

The cock is dependable. It crows at dawn. But it cannot itself fly to heaven. It just crows. A man may count on mere words to awaken faith. This may succeed now and then, but if persisted in, it will have bad consequences.

 

The way I read this was that, in regards to your repeated question, the Yijing characterizes you as a "cockcrow" (with the obvious implication of a certain self-centeredness and being a bit 'noisy' ) aspiring to higher understanding ("heaven"), however, your approach won't get you any positive results because you dwell on sophistries rather than attempting to intuitively grasp the essence of what has been shared. A mere play with words...

 

However, the second hexagram suggests that there is a real potential for coming to greater peace of mind and composure in your approach towards reading the oracle.

 

I don't pay attention to the "hidden hexagram" in a reading.

 

Now why do I read the reply this way? Simply because it makes the most sense! As you noted yourself, taken verbatim, it just doesn't seem applicable to your actual query.

 

And trust me, I have seen it happen before - both with the Yijing and other methods of divination - that when our mind is too busy analyzing and questioning the answers it receives, the oracle simply starts reflecting our own mental state.

 

By the way, the same can happen when we are generally in too anxious a state during a reading.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Oh, and let me know if you wish me to have a go at interpreting the original answer you received.

 

[waterdrop]

 

On 11/23/2020 at 9:36 PM, Michael Sternbach said:

Oh, and let me know if you wish me to have a go at interpreting the original answer you received

 
Yes that would be awesome    -  though if i had to choose i would rather get a reply about this another later divnation i did which is :

I asked the yi jing :  " what was the influence of what i practiced in X system on my back health "

I got hexagram   28      --- with  six (changing yang)  in the third       ----       that changed in to  47         .... and hidden hexagram is  1 

Background : I got major back pain since i started doing an online course  ( the course is great and i recommend it , and im still planing on doing parts of it (the non physical)  -  it seems i got something wrong in the physical aspect of it)    so i stopped doing most of it   -  and i plan to start doing part of the course about balncing the elements in body thorugh meditation  and working with the energy channels  which is non physical    ,  but still wonder if that is right and i should just get back into doing the regular online course   and not just the channels and elements part  

From the results i got by some parts i can interpret if i continue

The stretching i asked about before (when i got 64 )  are part of the online course   (from what i call "physical part")   ...  also it has  dantian gong part  ...  also Wuji stance ... and also dantian gong part       ....   all three i suspect might have caused my back pain

---- i also asked recently about " what was the influence of the wuji stance i did on my back health ? and what i should do about it "

and got also  64  but with nine in the second and fourth places  ,  and six in the third   (  result was hexagram 52  with the hidden one being  63)

***  i write all but if there is one i would like a reply is hexgram 28 cause it seems the most accurate  - cause its the first time i ever get a result talking about the " The ridgepole sags to the breaking point"  when im asking about my painful back 

**  i read the results after in a physical Wilhelm’s translation book - but if i look after again i look at this online site (if someone wants its pretty neat)    :  http://www.pantherwebworks.com/i_ching/index.html#key

Edited November 25, 2020 by waterdrop

[Nungali]

14 hours ago, Harmen said:

 

That's not true. It can answer any question. Whether you are able to understand the answer is a different matter.

 

It certainly has for me !

 

And glad I took the advice ! 

Edited November 23, 2020 by Nungali

[waterdrop]

Well , i ask another question about this same subject :   "what change(s) i need to do in my practice for my spine ?"

I got hexagram 24  -  where first line is a changing yang line      ->   and it changes to hexagram 2 (All yin)     (and hiddent hexagram is 2 also)  

But again not sure how to interpret this  -  should i get back to my old practice continue the exact same way i did before ?   or without some of the physical parts of it  ?  stop everything and not do anything  ?  start doing only meditation alone (including a new type of meditation i didnt do before)  ?
 
some thoughts i have on this is that by 24 and first line it seems i should return to exactly what i did before  -  and maybe hex 2 seems to mean the same

on the other hand when I asked the yi jing :

Quote

  " what was the influence of what i practiced in my system on my back health "

I got hexagram   28      --- with  six (changing yang)  in the third       ----       that changed in to  47         .... and hidden hexagram is  1 

 i asked somewhere else for advice on this  - and someone said its a clear sign what i did did me bad for my back  

*  so it seems this 2 divinations  clash  

 

Edited November 25, 2020 by waterdrop

[waterdrop]

have any thoughts about this clash ?         
 

Edited November 25, 2020 by waterdrop

[Michael Sternbach]

1 hour ago, waterdrop said:

@Michael Sternbach    have any thoughts about this clash ?         
 

 

Let's keep things sweet and simple please. Keep in mind that the Yijing already advised you not to get caught up in sophistries!

 

Along these lines (notice the pun ), let's just take a look at your latest reading for now.

 

The first hexagram clearly suggests that, in regards to your stretching practice, you should take things really easy initially. In case your body still needs to fully recover from injury sustained due to prior practice, make sure to factor in the required time.

 

Then cautiously take up or continue a routine that respects your current limitations. Be sensitive to your body at all times during your practice. Increase pressure very gradually only.

 

Following your current routine may be a good idea if it suits you overall. The thing to keep in mind is the guidelines already given. And to patiently persevere in your efforts.

 

Interestingly, the second hexagram serves to underline all that.

 

Hope this helps.

[waterdrop]

@Michael Sternbach    

im a bit confused as to what you reply too in your latest post

You talk about all the questions i wrote   ?  or just the two last ones ?    - cause in the two last ones i asked about my whole system i take (wuji+stretches+dantian gong+meditation)  and not just stretching  
 

Quote

Interestingly, the second hexagram serves to underline all that.

What second hexagram ?    are you talking about hexagram  24 ?  or 2 ?    or something else ? 

***  so trying to figure out what you mean is   :  is that it seems that the yi jing is saying not to stop my previous practice  ( at the moment im doing nothing for some days now - trying to figure out what to return to)   and return to it   - and not try the new one (just meditation)   ?   

(it makes sense - dont read criticism in my posts they are 100% genuine questions) 

Edited November 25, 2020 by waterdrop

[Michael Sternbach]

1 minute ago, waterdrop said:

@Michael Sternbach    

im a bit confused as to what you reply too in your latest post

You talk about all the questions i wrote   ?  or just the two last ones ?    - cause in the two last ones i asked about my whole system i take (wuji+stretches+dantian gong+meditation)  and not just stretching  

 

I talked about your last question only. And I emphasized the stretching part because that's the really tricky one, in my understanding of the Yijing's response.

 

1 minute ago, waterdrop said:

What second hexagram ?    are you talking about hexagram  24 ?  or 2 ?    or something else ? 

 

Hexagram 24 was the first one. It transforms into hexagram 2, hence that's the second one.

 

1 minute ago, waterdrop said:

***  so trying to figure out what you mean is   :  is that it seems that the yi jing is saying not to stop my previous practice  ( at the moment im doing nothing for some days now - trying to figure out what to return to)   and return to it   - and not try the new one (just meditation)   ?   

 

Doing nothing, or just meditation, is fine for awhile until you feel fit physically and mentally to resume the physical practice as well. And then you should do so with great care and attention to how it affects you. But yes, you should persevere in it.

 

1 minute ago, waterdrop said:

(it makes sense - dont read criticism in my posts they are 100% genuine questions) 

 

And that's how I read them.

 

Hope that my interpretation became intelligible now.

[waterdrop]

@Michael Sternbach        Ok so  , cleaning it all out  - looking at last question :       "
 

Quote

  "what change(s) i need to do in my practice for my spine ?"

I got hexagram 24  -  where first line is a changing yang line      ->   and it changes to hexagram 2 (All yin)     (and hiddent hexagram is 2 also)  

http://www.pantherwebworks.com/i_ching/bk1h21-30.html#24

 

Quote

And I emphasized the stretching part because that's the really tricky one, in my understanding of the Yijing's response

Where do you see the stretching part in that hexagram   ?       (was really illuminating to see before you that you wrote the yijing was (probably) referring to my attitude  - and me missing the Yijing saying oracle  - would be funny if now i missed the word "stretching"  somehow lol) 

[Michael Sternbach]

18 minutes ago, waterdrop said:

@Michael Sternbach        Ok so  , cleaning it all out  - looking at last question :       "
 

http://www.pantherwebworks.com/i_ching/bk1h21-30.html#24

 

Where do you see the stretching part in that hexagram   ?       (was really illuminating to see before you that you wrote the yijing was (probably) referring to my attitude  - and me missing the Yijing saying oracle  - would be funny if now i missed the word "stretching"  somehow lol) 

 

I reached that conclusion based on context - you mentioned that you physically hurt yourself by your exercises before. So the Yijing's reply must be read in that light.

 

Does that make sense to you?

[waterdrop]

Quote

The powerful light that has been banished returns.  There is movement, but it is not brought about by force

 this part ?             -  maybe wuji stance and danitan gong can be seen as force otoo though ?  not just stretching ?

 

Edited November 25, 2020 by waterdrop

[waterdrop]

 issue is i have no idea if force is me not putting force at all (aka just the meditation)  or  doing the physical part  but really low intensity  (though i always did things low intensity - now i need to do it really low ....  this makes this whole issue much more complicated for me cause i already went very careful low intensity and now if i return  it would be exceptionally low intensity  -  i think i did something like 10 minutes wuji stance for example - and strecthing i did just 1 minute doing a few seconds each stretch - while trying to put no force to it  ) 


*** also i am considering asking another questions trying to figure out what caused my strong back pains exactly    -  but i am not sure what best way to word my questionos  -  does  "what part caused my back pain  the wuji stance the stretching or the dantian gong ? "   good ?  or there is better one ?

Edited November 25, 2020 by waterdrop

[waterdrop]

@Michael Sternbach   

 

Quote

RETURN.  Success.
Going out and coming in without error.
Friends come without blame.
To and fro goes the way.
On the seventh day comes return.

Quote

The idea of RETURN is based on the course of nature

 

that seems to mean i should return to original practice   - not sure what this line means though

Quote

It furthers one to have somewhere to go.

 in the prevoius question where i got hex 28 it says there also 

Quote

It furthers one to have somewhere to go.

 
so that is intersting point - that its in both hexes and i wonder what it means

Edited November 26, 2020 by waterdrop