Interesting correlation between God and light in major world religions

[rocala]

14 hours ago, manitou said:

And ironically if they follow their religion and end up transcending the dogma, they all end up together.  Folks who refuse to believe that another's path is as viable as theirs, they are cutting off their own progress.  At some point humility must be found, and at that point true peace would be realized, when we realize the oneness of all paths.

 

14 hours ago, old3bob said:

I'd say that the concept of oneness of all paths is a "new age"  gloss-over that only works with the common ground needs of human beings

 ‘Do not attach yourself to any particular creed exclusively so that you disbelieve in all the rest, otherwise you lose much good, nay you will fail to recognise the real truth of the matter. Let your soul be capable of embracing all forms of belief."  Ibn' Arabi 1165-1240

Hardly a "new age" idea.

[Paradoxal]

3 hours ago, Bindi said:

Except... A river is a natural flowing watercourse, usually freshwater, flowing towards an ocean, sea, lake or another river. In some cases a river flows into the ground and becomes dry at the end of its course without reaching another body of water. (Wikipedia)

Quite true, if we were talking in purely literal terms. Of course, all texts of any spiritual worth can be read with at least three different meanings, so how could what I say ever be intended to be purely literal? 

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

It varies depending of which school of buddhism you are talking about.

 

Does this mean the goals are different? If so, do different goals still lead to the same outcome? 

 

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

 

https://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/media/articles/lifeeverlastingameneternallifeaccordingtotheapostlescreed/

What specifically are you trying to say with this link? 

[Apech]

27 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Does this mean the goals are different? If so, do different goals still lead to the same outcome? 

 

No, for instance the goal of Theravada is becoming an Arhat while Mahayana Buddhists is becoming a bodhisattva and so on.

 

27 minutes ago, Bindi said:

What specifically are you trying to say with this link? 

 

Some kind of definition of what eternal life means or is conceived of as by Thomas Aquinas.

 

 

[Bindi]

48 minutes ago, Paradoxal said:

Quite true, if we were talking in purely literal terms. Of course, all texts of any spiritual worth can be read with at least three different meanings, so how could what I say ever be intended to be purely literal? 

 

A Buddhist’s perspective on this saying, Here. Unfortunately I can’t copy and paste it. 
 

[Paradoxal]

@BindiHow fascinating! I didn't know this was such a widely known concept; I had thought I was clever for coming up with it! I do disagree with the opinion of the poster on that, but we can't agree on everything.

[old3bob]

6 hours ago, rocala said:

 

 ‘Do not attach yourself to any particular creed exclusively so that you disbelieve in all the rest, otherwise you lose much good, nay you will fail to recognise the real truth of the matter. Let your soul be capable of embracing all forms of belief."  Ibn' Arabi 1165-1240

 

Hardly a "new age" idea.

 

sounds like you misunderstand what I was trying to get at...for one can not simultaneously embrace and fully follow multiple schools at once although one can simultaneously tolerate, recognize and appreciate that more than their own school exists.   "New Age" is a new term for an age old idea of  lumping everything together which more or less dilutes everything.  Btw. as far as I know one does not see Buddhist Lama's in Hindu temples prostrating before  Hindu guru's  or Hindu's guru's taking up residence in  Buddhist schools and renouncing teachings on Brahman and soul.  And for the Muslim's to do something of that nature would instantly make them an outcast and enemy of Islam. (which per the bulk of history has proven to be one of the least tolerant creed/religion  per their scripture and actions)

Edited December 6, 2020 by old3bob

[old3bob]

11 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

 

All rivers lead to the ocean. One river may start on a mountain, another in a forest, and yet another may begin in a rocky desert, but all of them will lead to a single ocean if followed for long enough. If one cannot see the ocean from a river, perhaps it has not been followed thoroughly enough?

 

some parts of the river spin water into whirlpools or byways of one sort or another which is their accepted and taught goal. (or realm)

[Michael Sternbach]

21 hours ago, old3bob said:

I'd say that the concept of oneness of all paths is a "new age"  gloss-over that only works with the common ground needs of human beings, (which are mostly under one roof)  Anyway there are the obvious exoteric and esoteric facts that all paths are not one and do not lead to the same goal or destination.  For instance the end goal of Christianity leads to a Christian heaven with Jesus and God the Father.  (thus in a universe, of subtle or gross realities, that accommodates such differences)

 

19 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

neither was I,  thus not of symbolism, cults or on the material plane but on the soul plane in various realms of light with those realms and souls not all being on the same page,  thus  Christians,  pure land Buddhists, Tibetan Buddhists, (etc.) native or Shamans, a great many Hindu schools,  Taoist schools, Muslims, Shinto, Egyptians, Mystery schools,  etc., etc. with a universe big enough to hold them all.

 

So in your view, all religions are indeed based on some kind of metaphysical reality, but of a different and highly specific kind in each case. Well, that opens up some interesting perspectives...

 

If I choose to be Christian, I am promised to be eternally leaning on Jesus' bosom - well, not really my kind of thing plus there is the considerable risk of being sent to an overheated place stinking of sulfur for all my sins. Nah, out of the question.

 

If I devote myself to Islam, especially if I sacrifice my life for its sake, I could be spending my afterlife in a beautiful place with several wives, which sounds kind of attractive at first, but when I come to think about it, this might just as well result in eternal suffering again - so no, thanks.

 

If I decide to be a Buddhist, that means I am in for an endless series of reincarnations, but hey, I enjoy being in physical reality, plus some of the other places that (especially Tibetan) Buddhists can go to don't sound so bad either, so yes, Buddhism seems to have much to offer in terms of future planning - all the way to well-deserved retirement by popping into oblivion, ultimately!

 

As a Daoist, my only path to an afterlife to speak of seems to necessitate turning myself into an immortal - which is a rather challenging task to be sure. However, as it seems in line with other things that I'm on to anyway, this option will deserve further consideration.

 

There are yet more scenarios to consider - that have turned into actual possibilities, now that my eyes have been opened! So thanks for that, Old3Bob, I feel like the proverbial kid in the candy store right now. 

 

Alas, there is that pesky inner voice reminding me of the unlikelihood of every religion actually providing its own Heaven and Hell... I am afraid I am stuck with my previous view of all systems essentially representing aspects of a singular metaphysical reality. So I guess that's the world that actually awaits me - would you agree we call it the Eclectic Philosopher's Paradise?

Edited December 6, 2020 by Michael Sternbach

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

 

So in your view, all religions are indeed based on some kind of metaphysical reality, but of a different and highly specific kind in each case. Well, that opens up some interesting perspectives...

 

If I choose to be Christian, I am promised to be eternally leaning on Jesus' bosom - well, not really my kind of thing plus there is the considerable risk of being sent to an overheated place stinking of sulfur for all my sins. Nah, out of the question.

 

If I devote myself to Islam, especially if I sacrifice my life for its sake, I could be spending my afterlife in a beautiful place with several wives, which sounds kind of attractive at first, but when I come to think about it, this might just as well result in eternal suffering again - so no, thanks.

 

If I decide to be a Buddhist, that means I am in for an endless series of reincarnations, but hey, I enjoy being in physical reality, plus some of the other places that (especially Tibetan) Buddhists can go to don't sound so bad either, so yes, Buddhism seems to have much to offer in terms of future planning - all the way to well-deserved retirement by popping into oblivion, ultimately!

 

As a Daoist, my only path to an afterlife to speak of seems to necessitate turning myself into an immortal - which is a rather challenging task to be sure. However, as it seems in line with other things that I'm on to anyway, this option will deserve further consideration.

 

There are yet more scenarios to consider - that have turned into actual possibilities, now that my eyes have been opened! So thanks for that, Old3Bob, I feel like the proverbial kid in the candy store right now. 

 

Alas, there is that pesky inner voice reminding me of the unlikelihood of every religion actually providing its own Heaven and Hell... I am afraid I am stuck with my previous view of all systems essentially representing aspects of a singular metaphysical reality. So I guess that's the world that actually awaits me - would you agree we call it the Eclectic Philosopher's Paradise?

 

there is one multidimensional multiverse which has countless physical and subtle areas with millions+ galaxies in just the physical alone,  thus there are lots of possible realms for and of lots of possible beings!

Edited December 6, 2020 by old3bob

[Paradoxal]

2 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

Alas, there is that pesky inner voice reminding me of the unlikelihood of every religion actually providing its own Heaven and Hell...

While I agree with most of your message, this one point was something I felt I should add onto. Simply by imagining the possibility of a reality, that reality exists. It's one of the key aspects of magic. Thus, technically speaking, I would say that the various types of "heavens and hells" associated with all these different religions do indeed exist, but I would call them distractions rather than goals. Perhaps a house that you stay in along your way? Systems, what the meat is behind any religion, are simply templates that people can follow to help them reach a higher state of being easier. The dogma and individual mythos of each religion is what is manipulated by mortals in most cases, and said manipulation means it is impossible for it to be true. Thus, it is worthless to debate which religion is true, or what parts of which religions cross, as all of them are fields of falsehoods sowed with seeds of truth. Once one finds their path, they begin to see reality for what it is, without needing the lens of religion or mythos. Before the path is found, the allure of religion can certainly help guide one onto a proper path, but it is important to remember that all guides can be ignored if one decides to be foolish enough.

[manitou]

On 12/5/2020 at 3:31 PM, old3bob said:

 

neither was I,  thus not of symbolism, cults or on the material plane but on the soul plane in various realms of light with those realms and souls not all being on the same page,  thus  Christians,  pure land Buddhists, Tibetan Buddhists, (etc.) native or Shamans, a great many Hindu schools,  Taoist schools, Muslims, Shinto, Egyptians, Mystery schools,  etc., etc. with a universe big enough to hold them all.

 

 

What the deep metaphysics of all these traditions is, is that they end up in the same place.  The place of Nothing.  But ultimately a Nothing pregnant with ideas.  No need for the hugeness of the universe to accommodate all those deities.  Even the Scottish Rites of Freemasonry end up in the I Am consciousness - the 33rd degree.  All the other degrees were merely working his way up to the 33rd, through the process of not only adding knowledge but by subtracting unwanted traits within.  They Self-Realize, at which point they are a 33rd degree.  But it's like it says in the DDJ - 'the Dao that can be spoken of is not the Dao'.  The Freemasons are the same way - there is a huge book that outlines everything one must do to pass through the degrees.  But when you get to the 33rd degree, there are no words written.

 

I think it's also helpful to remember in this case, that linear time is an illusion.  We think of time as a separator, but it's actually all happening Now - our brains are formatted to receive it in small daily chunks.  

 

This is all a mind construct.

[Michael Sternbach]

On 06/12/2020 at 10:46 PM, Paradoxal said:

While I agree with most of your message, this one point was something I felt I should add onto. Simply by imagining the possibility of a reality, that reality exists. It's one of the key aspects of magic. Thus, technically speaking, I would say that the various types of "heavens and hells" associated with all these different religions do indeed exist, but I would call them distractions rather than goals.

 

I would agree that those realms may exist as mental projections of their inhabitants. Some kind of dream worlds as it were.

 

Then again, even physical experience is our own creation, at least from a certain perspective.

 

However, there must be certain universal principles behind it all. For instance, whether I am subject to reincarnation cannot depend on me being a Buddhist or a Hindu.

 

On 06/12/2020 at 10:46 PM, Paradoxal said:

Perhaps a house that you stay in along your way?

 

I have heard that individuals tend not to stay too long in the more hellish realms, whereas indulgence in heavenly worlds might last quite a bit longer...

 

On 06/12/2020 at 10:46 PM, Paradoxal said:

Systems, what the meat is behind any religion, are simply templates that people can follow to help them reach a higher state of being easier. The dogma and individual mythos of each religion is what is manipulated by mortals in most cases, and said manipulation means it is impossible for it to be true. Thus, it is worthless to debate which religion is true, or what parts of which religions cross, as all of them are fields of falsehoods sowed with seeds of truth. Once one finds their path, they begin to see reality for what it is, without needing the lens of religion or mythos. Before the path is found, the allure of religion can certainly help guide one onto a proper path, but it is important to remember that all guides can be ignored if one decides to be foolish enough.

 

Being 'foolish' is not necessarily a bad thing... The innocent and child-like nature of a fool is essential to many spiritual paths, from Daoism and Zen Buddhism to esoteric Christianity and Tarot.

[Paradoxal]

8 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

However, there must be certain universal principles behind it all. For instance, whether I am subject to reincarnation cannot depend on me being a Buddhist or a Hindu.

There certainly are universal principles behind it all, as I was alluding to previously. I can answer how certain aspects work according to my understanding, but I don't think it wise to trust another's understanding to create knowledge, so I don't usually try to go into detail on these things. In fact, the more detail you go into with a lot of these "universal systems", the less sense you end up making to the uninformed listener. If I were to oversimplify, this world is similar to a video game in its functionality, but the code running our world is much more complex than that running a game. Many moving parts interact with eachother, so very few concrete and simple rules are always true. 

 

12 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

I have heard that individuals tend not to stay too long in the more hellish realms, whereas indulgence in heavenly worlds might last quite a bit longer...

Given that this realm is closer to the hellish realms than the heavenly realms... that is likely true. That said, there is value in the lower realms as suffering doesn't exist in the higher realms. Suffering motivates change, the lack thereof creates stagnation. Thus, even the gods will incarnate once in awhile to keep themselves growing. 

13 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

Being 'foolish' is not necessarily a bad thing... The innocent and child-like nature of a fool is essential to many spiritual paths, from Daoism and Zen Buddhism to esoteric Christianity and Tarot.

The 'foolish' that I am talking about here is closer to 'the rebel' than 'the fool' in character. It is foolish to do something that you know will harm you for no gain, but some are sufficiently motivated to do so anyway. 'The rebel' is a negative fool, while 'the fool', as used as a child-like character, is a positive fool. Both sides have similar roots, but different effects. 

[manitou]

2 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

However, there must be certain universal principles behind it all. For instance, whether I am subject to reincarnation cannot depend on me being a Buddhist or a Hindu.

 

 

One day it occurred to me that the one commonality that everyone, all religions shares is the necessity to acknowledge something unseen as an explanation for phenomena, both physical, spiritual, and mental.  Then it only becomes a question of which part of the world you're born in as to which path, societal norms, and conditionings we have ingrained.

 

(I've just read some of your blogs, big guy.  You may not consider yourself a sage, but there's no doubt you're a Master.)

Edited December 8, 2020 by manitou

[old3bob]

17 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

What the deep metaphysics of all these traditions is, is that they end up in the same place.  The place of Nothing.  But ultimately a Nothing pregnant with ideas.  No need for the hugeness of the universe to accommodate all those deities.  Even the Scottish Rites of Freemasonry end up in the I Am consciousness - the 33rd degree.  All the other degrees were merely working his way up to the 33rd, through the process of not only adding knowledge but by subtracting unwanted traits within.  They Self-Realize, at which point they are a 33rd degree.  But it's like it says in the DDJ - 'the Dao that can be spoken of is not the Dao'.  The Freemasons are the same way - there is a huge book that outlines everything one must do to pass through the degrees.  But when you get to the 33rd degree, there are no words written.

 

I think it's also helpful to remember in this case, that linear time is an illusion.  We think of time as a separator, but it's actually all happening Now - our brains are formatted to receive it in small daily chunks.  

 

This is all a mind construct.

 

I'd say that what is relative and of time and space is not an illusion,  with "illusion" and such terms being  a favorite dismissal and cop-out about the workings of the universe and all beings.   As for the Absolute I'll let it be.

[manitou]

Thank you for letting the Absolute be.

[old3bob]

44 minutes ago, manitou said:

Thank you for letting the Absolute be.

 

It will have to wait for an eternal moment since only the absolute can reach the absolute 

[Nungali]

On 08/12/2020 at 7:29 AM, manitou said:

 

 

What the deep metaphysics of all these traditions is, is that they end up in the same place.  The place of Nothing.  But ultimately a Nothing pregnant with ideas.  No need for the hugeness of the universe to accommodate all those deities.  Even the Scottish Rites of Freemasonry end up in the I Am consciousness - the 33rd degree.  All the other degrees were merely working his way up to the 33rd, through the process of not only adding knowledge but by subtracting unwanted traits within.  They Self-Realize, at which point they are a 33rd degree.  But it's like it says in the DDJ - 'the Dao that can be spoken of is not the Dao'.  The Freemasons are the same way - there is a huge book that outlines everything one must do to pass through the degrees.  But when you get to the 33rd degree, there are no words written.

 

I think it's also helpful to remember in this case, that linear time is an illusion.  We think of time as a separator, but it's actually all happening Now - our brains are formatted to receive it in small daily chunks.  

 

This is all a mind construct.

 

 

Just curious  ......   how does a young lady like you know so much about Freemasonry  ?   

 

   - you haven't been 'eavesdropping'  have you ?

 

 

 

            

 

 

Or even    ....  ?  

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[manitou]

They cleverly hide everything in a book.  It's called Morals and Dogma, by Edmund Pike.  Who in their right mind would pick up an old dusty book at a yard sale named Morals and Dogma???  For some reason, I did.  I was rewarded with the Freemason's instructions for self-realization.  If you're into such things, it was pretty fascinating, really.  It's about 900 pages.  I actually read every word...

[Nungali]

This is a good one ... for the far out and  'spurious' 

 

 

 

 

[manitou]

It looks really tempting.  So much to read, so little time.

[Nungali]

Its fairly short .

[silent thunder]

On 12/6/2020 at 10:20 AM, old3bob said:

 

some parts of the river spin water into whirlpools or byways of one sort or another which is their accepted and taught goal. (or realm)

I often have a sense that my own local awareness and body, are akin to a whirlpool in a river.  An observable pattern, yet ever shifting.

 

Whirlpools have an observable shape and influence on surrounding conditions and this can be readily observed and persists for a time.  Likewise there's an observable shape to my presence... a pattern that my family and friends recognize and persists for a time.  Yet like a whirlpool, that pattern is comprised of an ever shifting, whirling, whorling series of processes, influences and smaller components... veritable incadescent, effervescent vibrations on the foundational level that when observed, reveal themselves as vibrations within emptiness. 

 

fascinating stuff...

[Nungali]