Is there a space for queer people in a traditional or semi-traditional setting?

[dachungzi]

I've been hoping to find a more traditional setting to help contextualize and explore an experience I've had recently and memories from my childhood, but, well, I'm queer. I struggle to identify where there really is a space for me that doesn't say this is something for me to be ashamed of. Knowing restraint, to control desire lest it control you, and even further still recognizing joy and pleasure itself can be dukkha because it's an appetite that is never truly sated and can cause despair when it cannot be attained, and binds you with karma in this way, sure, but that I am somehow spiritually deficient, cannot understand the dharma or join the sangha simply because my experience of desire is ever so slightly different from a heterosexual's, is absurd to me, I refuse to accept it as divinity or wisdom. The even more clear cut and prescriptively violent passages from the Old Testament and Jesus' affirmation of them in the Fulfillment of the Law, is what shattered my initial faith. I need to feel confident I'm not making a deliberate and willful interpretation of a religion if I'm to engage with it sincerely. Despite what I've said, I feel a strong connection to Hinduism, Buddhism, and Daoism. I'm not sure still which I feel has the best framework for accepting and guiding me. Taking a gander at the more recent rules change, I feel that there must be at least some here who have had a similar experience and has worked this out for themselves. I'm interested to hear about it and any suggestions any one might have.

[thelerner]

If you go back a 1000 years or so you may find most religions less then tolerant.  But your looking for a spiritual place now, not hundreds of years ago.  So.. I'd recommend searching out LGBTQ tolerant religious orgs nearby.  Google it.  There's a real advantage to close by because you'll find community as well as spirituality.  If you grew up in a Western tradition, ie Judeo/Christian, you should be able to find a group that is welcoming, so don't necessarily throw those out with the bath water.

[RiverSnake]

In this life your are a human being, in your previous you were a cat, in the next who knows? Spirituality is often tainted by the societies they emerge from.....but when your looking at cultivation....a larger context is required. Heal, grow and whatever labels you and society have rolling around in the psyche.......understand that its a very small picture in comparison to existence itself.

 

That being said, everyones energetic temperament is different and its important to find methods that suit your nature. Nevertheless, unless your talking about sex magick.....i don't think your romantic preferences are directly relevant.

[dachungzi]

3 hours ago, thelerner said:

If you go back a 1000 years or so you may find most religions less then tolerant.  But your looking for a spiritual place now, not hundreds of years ago.  So.. I'd recommend searching out LGBTQ tolerant religious orgs nearby.  Google it.  There's a real advantage to close by because you'll find community as well as spirituality.  If you grew up in a Western tradition, ie Judeo/Christian, you should be able to find a group that is welcoming, so don't necessarily throw those out with the bath water.

 

I'm really sorry, but just no, absolutely not, never. I will never return to that grotesque cult. I don't want a community. If I just wanted friends, I'd join a club. I'm looking for faith. I spent an inordinate amount of time and energy, all wasted, no, worse than wasted, it was nothing less than self harm, trying to hold on to my Christianity. It is not possible. I practically gave myself an undergraduate theology degree, reading all kinds of philosophy and commentaries, both Christian and Rabbinical, even learning some Hebrew, every argument that says there is a space for me in this disgusting religion is so laughably reaching they are seriously on the magnitude of claiming 1 + 1 = 3. There is no "finger pointing to the Moon" rhetoric here, no poetic and cryptic language in regards to what concerns me. The Bible, The Torah, and the Quran is page after page after page of not at all ambiguous language, dry as a contract, telling you to murder your queer neighbors, murder effeminate men, they are abominations, but owning slaves and committing genocide, relishing in the death and destruction of your enemies, keep their daughters as rape slaves, that's all A-Okay.

 

And rape is only a sin if the woman is a virgin, and of course, when almost all Levitical punishments call for an agonizing execution at the hands of the entire community, but what's the punishment for a rapist? A fine paid to the father and a shotgun wedding with his victim. You know, because she's damaged goods now and won't be getting as impressive of a dowry for being defiled. Its dogma and community has done nothing but to deeply hurt me, mentally and physically, and almost everyone I've known since I was the smallest child, and I continue to see it ruin everything for everybody worth a damn. Fuck Christianity. It is cast out of my heart now and forever, The Judeo-Christian God is a Lovecraftian horror as far as I am concerned and I trust no one that claims it an important part of their life, no matter how genial they seem. It is the most depraved code of morality I have ever seen in my life and I will have nothing to do with it except to help decent people escape it.

 

If the only way for me to adopt any religion is to not only ignore, but to actively go against the teachings of its founding and most luminary figures, just what in the hell am I left with? How can I in any good faith or intellectual honesty say what I am doing is not a delusion? How am I supposed to think that the practices that derive from the same pages that say I am a hell condemned irredeemable sinner who will never understand it, is to have any meaning at all?

[dachungzi]

1 hour ago, RiverSnake said:

In this life your are a human being, in your previous you were a cat, in the next who knows? Spirituality is often tainted by the societies they emerge from.....but when your looking at cultivation....a larger context is required. Heal, grow and whatever labels you and society have rolling around in the psyche.......understand that its a very small picture in comparison to existence itself.

 

That being said, everyones energetic temperament is different and its important to find methods that suit your nature. Nevertheless, unless your talking about sex magick.....i don't think your romantic preferences are directly relevant.

 

Is there a religion that does not have major doctrinal texts that say I am somehow spiritually deficient and not fit for religious practice, or worse yet, that I should be ceremoniously and agonizingly murdered for the benefit of the community? I struggle with passages from Buddhism regarding pandaka and I am more ignorant of Hindu and Daoist texts. Many Daoist texts have never even been translated. I don't know what to think. I've had what I regard as powerful spiritual experiences, ones explained by these religions, even produced by me unwittingly performing specific meditations. But I just cannot, will not, endorse or engage with a faith, an ideology, an anything, that says with any convincing authority that I'm lesser for these uncontrollable and non harmful aspects of myself. There are plenty of things I truly am ashamed of, and want to be better for, I will not add anything that doesn't need to be there to that pile and I know the attitudes and motives of the sorts that would wish for me to feel as such. And I don't care if they're a Buddha, I will spit in their face.

[thelerner]

No matter what the doctrine, old books and myths say,  religion is full of people.. and I find, they're not all that different.  A good group is a good group, a bad group, no matter what book, will be a bad group.  They tend to take their lead from the leader.

 

There is a possibility of finding your perfect open wonderful theology but if the guy who runs the place is a jerk, it'll filter down.

 

[JohnC]

Honestly.... you'll probably find a lot of acceptance in any quality group of those three.

 

Hindu has gods that are male and female, buddhism doesn't really care so much about what you want to fuck other than to encourage moderation, and same with taoism.

 

You will also find groups that will discriminate, shame, etc among those three plenty, as humans are part of them.

 

The story of the two travelers and the farmer fits here:

Quote

A traveler came upon an old farmer hoeing in his field beside the road. Eager to rest his feet, the wanderer hailed the countryman, who seemed happy enough to straighten his back and talk for a moment.

“What sort of people live in the next town?” asked the stranger.

“What were the people like where you’ve come from?” replied the farmer, answering the question with another question.

“They were a bad lot. Troublemakers all, and lazy too. The most selfish people in the world, and not a one of them to be trusted. I’m happy to be leaving the scoundrels.”

“Is that so?” replied the old farmer. “Well, I’m afraid that you’ll find the same sort in the next town.

Disappointed, the traveler trudged on his way, and the farmer returned to his work.

Some time later another stranger, coming from the same direction, hailed the farmer, and they stopped to talk. “What sort of people live in the next town?” he asked.

“What were the people like where you’ve come from?” replied the farmer once again.

“They were the best people in the world. Hard working, honest, and friendly. I’m sorry to be leaving them.”

“Fear not,” said the farmer. “You’ll find the same sort in the next town.”

 

Good luck!

Edited November 17, 2020 by JohnC

[Apech]

@dachungzi

 

i think that sexual energy and spiritual energy are very closely linked - as to be more or less the same thing.  Religions which invest in social organising and moderating the life of their followers tend to be very severe on anything that doesn't fall into the man-woman in marriage for procreation model.  Although their priests, preachers or whatever are often having a colourful time on the quiet - while preaching the opposite for everyone else.  I think the level of investment in conditioning people is so high because of fear.

 

As far as Buddhism goes - I have found that the lay precept of avoiding sexual misconduct in western Buddhist groups has been unofficially extended to include any non-harmful relationship or sexuality but in the older texts (which were written mostly for monks who are not supposed to have any sexual activity at all of course) there is prohibition against any sex not between man or a woman.  This is usually brushed under the carpet by western teachers.  Although the rules are often bafflingly unhelpful anyway - such as not to have sex more than five times in one night (!)

 

Of course to a certain extent the vajrayana does build 'antinomial' and 'transgressive' acts into the system via the mahasiddhas who lived strange and colourful lives themselves.  But they do presuppose social norms which are then breached.  If you don't accept the social norms in the first place then it's not quite the same.  But I would expect that some lamas would accept you into their community on the basis of non-harm or practice of compassion and so on.  You'd have to check this out - because some might take a more prejudicial view.

 

You mention you have had spiritual experiences through meditation - this is more important than any rule based organisation - and i think you should let this guide you primarily - apart from that there are more possibly progressive systems in the west like wicca and western occultism - which would certainly be in line with your anti Christian stance

 

 

[dachungzi]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

@dachungzi

Of course to a certain extent the vajrayana does build 'antinomial' and 'transgressive' acts into the system via the mahasiddhas who lived strange and colourful lives themselves.  But they do presuppose social norms which are then breached.  If you don't accept the social norms in the first place then it's not quite the same.  But I would expect that some lamas would accept you into their community on the basis of non-harm or practice of compassion and so on. 

 

 

 

You see, this is exactly the problem, I absolutely do not and will not recognize my identity as being "transgressive" in any way, nor will I tolerate a condescending "acceptance" of my supposed "transgression", if I could, I'd simply still be Christian. This is not, was not, ever a choice, has been there since my earliest memories, and it hurts absolutely no one who does not choose to hurt themselves by getting upset that I merely exist.That is not my problem, that is their ignorance, and I will not burden myself with it. And if the Buddhas and the Lamas are really so ignorant, there is no wisdom, no divinity there. If their practice supposedly brings enlightened knowledge of the most profound mysteries of the universe and yet can not bring them to this very basic understanding of the people under their noses, it is useless and I will not waste my time with it.

[Apech]

4 minutes ago, dachungzi said:

 

You see, this is exactly the problem, I absolutely do not and will not recognize my identity as being "transgressive" in any way, nor will I tolerate a condescending "acceptance" of my supposed "transgression", if I could, I'd simply still be Christian. This is not, was not, ever a choice, has been there since my earliest memories, and it hurts absolutely no one who does not choose to hurt themselves by getting upset that I merely exist.That is not my problem, that is their ignorance, and I will not burden myself with it. And if the Buddhas and the Lamas are really so ignorant, there is no wisdom, no divinity there. If their practice supposedly brings enlightened knowledge of the most profound mysteries of the universe and yet can not bring them to this very basic understanding of the people under their noses, it is useless and I will not waste my time with it.

 

yes, I get what you are saying ... maybe you can find an enlightened teacher ... I hope so ... but the one's I knew are dead, sadly, so I can't recommend.  best wishes.

 

 

[Bhathen]

Ardhanarishvara 

https://isha.sadhguru.org/us/en/wisdom/article/ardhanarishvara

[natural]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

@dachungzi

 not to have sex more than five times in one night (!)

 

 

 

 

Seems reasonable to me!  ;  )

[dachungzi]

1 hour ago, Bhathen said:

Ardhanarishvara 

https://isha.sadhguru.org/us/en/wisdom/article/ardhanarishvara

 

Deities like Ardharnarishvara, folk belief in hijra actually being closer to the mystical than the general population, and stories of Arjuna living as one (albeit because of a curse) are things among others that draw me to Hinduism. I've also recently made some small prayers to Ganesh, always having strong interest in art and science, and feeling like my life has been plenty difficult enough, I decided why not try and pray to the remover of obstacles and patron of knowledge, and felt them actually answered, an experience I never had with prayer in Christianity. Of what I've read of the Upanishads and Bhagavad Gita, I haven't found much that strikes me as particularly phobic, especially in a nasty way, but I know I've only scratched the surface.

 

Though I have sometimes struggled with passages that chill me with their coldness. Krishna's first description of reincarnation in the first few pages of the Bhagavad Gita, when Arjuna says he feels like the crown isn't worth spilling the blood of beloved kin, I was touched, when Krishna justifies war simply stating reincarnation as a fact and that kshatriya are entitled to it, I felt kind of betrayed to be honest. I gleam some wisdom here, in maybe saying that a man like Arjuna is precisely the sort of person who should have responsibility and his right to it must be guarded against greed, but it felt like far and away not the enlightened and elegant way of conveying this notion. I suppose that's a nitpick, but I have literally seen Hindu nationalists use this passage as an excuse for wanton violence.

Edited November 17, 2020 by dachungzi

[dachungzi]

I'd also say that I recognize all the "Eastern" religions as being considerably more compassionate and containing any degree of farseeing insight. As easy as it'd be to blame the uniquely European and Mediterranean violent homo/transphobia on the Abrahamic traditions, even Norse paganism had ergi, though was I guess slightly balanced against with Odin as its supreme deity (the practice of Norse divination seidr, Odin's primary trait being the supreme practitioner thereof, was considered feminine, and is actually teased by Loki for this.) But then it's no small wonder how the people took so comfortably to the promulgate and violent phobia of Christianity : P 

 

You need only look at the plethora of non-binary gender concepts in cultures that haven't been poisoned by this. I promise you these are not cultural constructs, they are natural human modes of being. You have no concept for them in your culture, because our cultures literally murdered their own children for displaying these traits, en masse. I know the life of non gender conforming people in these other cultures are far from peachy and still fraught with danger and violence, but the fact that they are even recognized at all, is amazing.

 

Caveat being you're rich and important enough to escape scrutiny, a la Chevalier d'Eon

 

Edited November 17, 2020 by dachungzi

[Michael Sternbach]

 

4 hours ago, Apech said:

As far as Buddhism goes - I have found that the lay precept of avoiding sexual misconduct in western Buddhist groups has been unofficially extended to include any non-harmful relationship or sexuality but in the older texts (which were written mostly for monks who are not supposed to have any sexual activity at all of course) there is prohibition against any sex not between man or a woman.  This is usually brushed under the carpet by western teachers.  Although the rules are often bafflingly unhelpful anyway - such as not to have sex more than five times in one night (!)

 

F***! Only five times in one night?!

 

I'd rather raise my bar on that!

[Nungali]

19 hours ago, dachungzi said:

 

I'm really sorry, but just no, absolutely not, never. I will never return to that grotesque cult. I don't want a community. If I just wanted friends, I'd join a club. I'm looking for faith. I spent an inordinate amount of time and energy, all wasted, no, worse than wasted, it was nothing less than self harm, trying to hold on to my Christianity. It is not possible. I practically gave myself an undergraduate theology degree, reading all kinds of philosophy and commentaries, both Christian and Rabbinical, even learning some Hebrew, every argument that says there is a space for me in this disgusting religion is so laughably reaching they are seriously on the magnitude of claiming 1 + 1 = 3. There is no "finger pointing to the Moon" rhetoric here, no poetic and cryptic language in regards to what concerns me. The Bible, The Torah, and the Quran is page after page after page of not at all ambiguous language, dry as a contract, telling you to murder your queer neighbors, murder effeminate men, they are abominations, but owning slaves and committing genocide, relishing in the death and destruction of your enemies, keep their daughters as rape slaves, that's all A-Okay.

 

And rape is only a sin if the woman is a virgin, and of course, when almost all Levitical punishments call for an agonizing execution at the hands of the entire community, but what's the punishment for a rapist? A fine paid to the father and a shotgun wedding with his victim. You know, because she's damaged goods now and won't be getting as impressive of a dowry for being defiled. Its dogma and community has done nothing but to deeply hurt me, mentally and physically, and almost everyone I've known since I was the smallest child, and I continue to see it ruin everything for everybody worth a damn. Fuck Christianity. It is cast out of my heart now and forever, The Judeo-Christian God is a Lovecraftian horror as far as I am concerned and I trust no one that claims it an important part of their life, no matter how genial they seem. It is the most depraved code of morality I have ever seen in my life and I will have nothing to do with it except to help decent people escape it.

 

If the only way for me to adopt any religion is to not only ignore, but to actively go against the teachings of its founding and most luminary figures, just what in the hell am I left with? How can I in any good faith or intellectual honesty say what I am doing is not a delusion? How am I supposed to think that the practices that derive from the same pages that say I am a hell condemned irredeemable sinner who will never understand it, is to have any meaning at all?

 

Good for you !

 

Make no compromise , give no quarter !  This is your personal development we are talking about here , not a morphing into some type of acceptable mould .

 

I am curious as to what you mean about faith . The system I am using doesnt require 'faith'  nor  condone it .

 

Might I suggest you abandon the religious approach altogether  and adopt instead the idea of 'religious' technology ? *

 

Become a psychonaught .

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychonautics

 

* Ie.  there are things ( techniques, exercises, etc )  they use in religion and are dressed up as religion that achieve certain ends . Throw out the dressing and focus on the 'technology ' .  or to put it in another way ;  dont follow the teachings of Jesus of Mohammad  - for example - (and all the crap and interpretations that they and their followers and institutions said and wrote )  try out what they did  to achieve their 'enlightenment '  - but you  own enlightenment  .

 

The system I spent many years in did exactly this  and had and still has many  people of various sexual identities involved in it , with no judgement whatsoever about that . Also it  allows sexual equality , for example , my first initiator was  a woman  and  the head of my local group was a woman . Sexuality is celebrated with no distinction on what type it actually is  ( all  within the  context of not invading another's  free will of course - and that includes someone being old enough to have developed and understood their free will ) .

 

In case the distinction between religion and   'technology ' in practice is unclear, I will offer this  -its about as brief and concise of any definition about this that I have found so far ;

 

 

 

THEOREMS

I. The world progresses by virtue of the appearance of 'Christs'  (geniuses).

II. Christs (geniuses) are men with super-consciousness of the highest order.

III. Super-consciousnes of the highest order is obtainable by known methods.

Therefore, by employing the quintessence of known methods we cause the world to progress.

ESSENTIALS OF METHOD

I. Theology is immaterial; for both Buddha and St. Ignatius were Christs.

II. Morality is immaterial; for both Socrates and Mohammed were Christs.

III. Super-consciousness is a natural phenomenon; its conditions are therefore to be sought rather in the acts than the words of those who attain it.

The essential acts are retirement and concentration — as taught by Yoga and Ceremonial Magic. {196}

MISTAKES OF MYSTICS

I. Since truth is supra-rational, it is incommunicable in the language of reason.

II. Hence all mystics have written nonsense, and what sense they have written is so far untrue.

III. Yet as a still lake yields a truer reflection of the sun than a torrent, he whose mind is best balanced will, if he become a mystic, become the best mystic.

THE METHOD OF EQUILIBRIUM

 

I. THE PASSIONS, ETC.

I. Since the ultimate truth of teleology is unknown, all codes of morality are arbitrary.

II. Therefore the student has no concern with ethics as such.

III. He is consequently free 'to do his duty in that state of life to which it has pleased God to call him.'

II. THE REASON

I. Since truth is supra-rational, any rational statement is false.

II. Let the student then contradict every proposition that presents itself to him. {197}

III. Rational ideas being thus expelled from the mind, there is room for the apprehension of spiritual truth.

It should be remarked that this does not destroy the validity of reasonings on their own plane.

III. THE SPIRITUAL SENSORIUM

I. Man being a finite being, he is incapable of apprehending the infinite. Nor does his communion with infinite being (true or false) alter this fact.

II. Let then the student contradict every vision and refuse to enjoy it; first, because there is certainly another vision possible of precisely contradictory nature; secondly, because though he is God, he is also a man upon an insignificant planet.

Being thus equilibrated laterally and vertically, it may be that, either by affirmation or denial of all these things together, he may attain the supreme trance.

IV. THE RESULT

I. Trance is defined as the ek-stasis of one particular tract of the brain, caused by meditation on the idea corresponding to it.

II. Let the student therefore beware lest in that idea be any trace of imperfection. It should be pure, balanced, calm, complete, fitted in every way to dominate the mind, as it will.

Even as in the choice of a king to be crowned. {198}

III. So will the decrees of this king be just and wise as he was just and wise before he was made king.

The life and work of the mystic will reflect (though dimly) the supreme guiding force of the mystic, the highest trance to which he has attained.

YOGA AND MAGIC

I. Yoga is the art of uniting the mind to a single idea. It has four methods.

Gnana-Yoga.	Union by Knowledge.
Raja-Yoga.	Union by Will.
Bhakta-Yoga.	Union by Love.
Hatha-Yoga.	Union by Courage.
add Mantra-Yoga.	Union through Speech.
Karma-Yoga.	Union through Work.

These are united by the supreme method of Silence.

II. Ceremonial Magic is the art of uniting the mind to a single idea.

It has four Methods.

The Holy Qabalah.	Union by Knowledge.
The Sacred Magic.	Union by Will.
The Acts of Worship.	Union by Love.
The Ordeals.	Union by Courage.
add The Invocations.	Union by Speech.
The Acts of Service.	Union through Work.

These are united by the supreme method of Silence. {199}

III. If this idea be any but the Supreme and Perfect idea, and the student lose control, the result is insanity, obsession, fanaticism, or paralysis and death (add addiction to gossip and incurable idleness), according to the nature of the failure.

Let then the Student understand all these things and combine them in his Art, uniting them by the supreme method of Silence.

- Aleister Crowley

 

[ The author would also agree with your 'rant' against Christianity ,  religious organisations  and homophobia  ]

Edited November 17, 2020 by Nungali

[Nungali]

6 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

 

F***! Only five times in one night?!

 

I'd rather raise my bar on that!

 

 

[dachungzi]

8 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

 

F***! Only five times in one night?!

 

I'd rather raise my bar on that!

It's not more than just once if you don't stop

[Michael Sternbach]

31 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

 

I am glad... It seems like you caught my drift!*

 

*A drift is part of the blacksmithing process where a pin is hammered into a formed, forged hole (as in a hinge hole which will accommodate a hinge-pin). ... This pin is usually caught or retrieved by a blacksmith's apprentice. Thus, the specific phrase “catch my drift” could well come from this process.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Michael Sternbach

[Michael Sternbach]

21 minutes ago, dachungzi said:

It's not more than just once if you don't stop

 

Oh bother!

 

Soon you will start educating me on that Mantak Chia retaining stuff that newbies frequently start threads on because they got in trouble with it!

 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Michael Sternbach

[Nungali]

3 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

I am glad you caught my drift!*

 

*A drift is part of the blacksmithing process where a pin is hammered into a formed, forged hole (as in a hinge hole which will accommodate a hinge-pin). ... This pin is usually caught or retrieved by a blacksmith's apprentice. Thus, the specific phrase “catch my drift” could well come from this process.

 

Over the years I have had numerous 'apprentices'  catching my 'pin' .  Cant say I needed to hammer it into a hole though , I preferred a more persuasive approach .

 

An embarrassing moment at the Chinese Doctors ;

 

Spoiler

a bit off topic

 

I was interstate  working and got a skin rash  so with an unfamilar Dr TCM . He spoke little English and his wife was helping him and looking things up in a translation book .  He asked numerous questions about health and habits then hesitated and  quietly asked

 

" Ahhh, how many a time you have  a sex ? "

 

Me ;  " Pardon ? "   (his wife looks eyes  down )

 

" How many time you have a sex ? "

 

" What , ever ?  Or lately ? "

 

(he consults his wife, she looks in the book and tells him something in Chinese )

 

" Ummm ... how  often you have a-sex ? "

 

" Oh ... well, that depends  , I am away from home at the moment , so not a lot ,  but when I am at home  , more often , but that also depends ..... sometimes a lot, some times its a dessert !   So do you mean now, like over the last couple of months or before that when I was at home ."

 

(confused ... he consults wife again, she looks in book and  talks Chinese to him )

 

" How many times, when you have sex, do you have sex on average ."

 

" Ahhh!   How many times,  when I do have it,    on average !  ... about 2 or 3 times . "

 

" Oh good , sex 2 or 3 times a week - good chi ! "

 

Me;  " A week !  Thats good chi ? I thought you meant  at one time , in one session ... or in one night ... you know   "in a row " .

 

" Ooooo ! 3 at one time !     Very Good chi ! "   and he  gets this cheeky grin , his wife still looking down is smiling .

 

Me : "  Thats good chi ?  3 times a week ! ?  What, even if you are married ? .....    Oh, I mean   ... no offence , I am sure you are happily married and  ....    errm  .....   oops   ." 

 

  

 

Then he gives me all these pills to take  : You take 3 pills, 3 times a day , but today first day take double amount this day only and take now together ." so he  takes up this bottle and tips out 18 pills and hands me the rest of the bottle  and the 18 pills and a glass of water . He turns around to do something  and I take the pills . He turns back and  " Where pills gone ?"

 

" I took them, you said to take them ."

 

"What , all at once ? "

 

" Yes, I thought that is what you meant ... it won't harm me will it ? "

 

" Oh no , it wont hurt you , you supposed to take them all , its just ... I never see anyone swallow  18 pill all in one go  before !  "

 

Ooops !  Double embarrassment ! 

 

 

[dachungzi]

27 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Oh bother!

 

Soon you will start educating me on that Mantak Chia retaining stuff that newbies frequently start threads on because they got in trouble with it!

 

No I don't know anything about it, I am just simple, things that feel good I want to make last. Usually satisfied by the end of it that way, genuinely. But, you know, if I'm not or maybe it's early in the day still, I don't have any shame over that : P I just feel a little gross if I catch myself using sexuality to sublimate my anxiety or depression excessively.

[Nungali]

13 minutes ago, dachungzi said:

No I don't know anything about it, I am just simple, things that feel good I want to make last. Usually satisfied by the end of it that way, genuinely. But, you know, if I'm not or maybe it's early in the day still, I don't have any shame over that : P I just feel a little gross if I catch myself using sexuality to sublimate my anxiety or depression excessively.

 

So, what do you think about my suggestion of  following ' spiritual methods and technologies '   removed from the context of religious   moral judgements  ?

[Michael Sternbach]

29 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Over the years I have had numerous 'apprentices'  catching my 'pin' .  Cant say I needed to hammer it into a hole though , I preferred a more persuasive approach .

 

Well...

 

[dachungzi]

38 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

So, what do you think about my suggestion of  following ' spiritual methods and technologies '   removed from the context of religious   moral judgements  ?

 

I feel remiss to wholly reject a tradition and say I would have the discernment to know what is true and what is not, I can only be this certain about my identity because, well, it is my identity, it is such a basic and fundamental part of myself, the closest thing to permanence in my behavior, though I'm not without variance in that regard of course, but would hope to find a tradition that at least comes close to what feels like has an insight and a way of teaching that speaks to me, I understand that it'll be a largely personal undertaking still.

 

It just irks me if there really is a homogeneity of opinion in traditional sources that people that fall outside sexual and gender norms are inherently spiritually deviant misfits. Some part of me can accept dysphoria being a kind of karmic backlash, and not everyone feels it at the same intensity, but that I am more of an uncontrollable misfit than any random hetero male is a damned laugh to me. And who is to say that karmic backlash isn't for being prejudiced in a past life? What could possibly be a more fit lesson? And I do not doubt this state can come about without it, not one bit.

 

And even when I consider the agrarian feudal society dynamic, the rate at which such people appear in the population,  and if you're homosexual you're not making any more mouths to feed, and won't be burdened with children of your own already should there be orphans in your community, and if you're bi/pan you still can! There is absolutely no legitimate threat perceivable in any scenario to allowing these people simply be and instill in them a love for their community that they're perfectly capable of returning in spades. I frankly feel like it's a small miracle my upbringing didn't turn me into a literal psychopath. I am not patting myself on the back for that, but it's harrowing to think how easily I could've broken in a very bad way, and I don't feel like I or anyone deserves that. It is just so obviously a confidence trick, an easy scapegoat to other and burn as an effigy and say "Look, we are doing something, we are recanting evil" and condition people to have stone hearts for their neighbors, that it makes me fucking nauseous and anyone that would continue that demented, old lie is so far gone in my heart that I cannot believe they have ever seen truth

Edited November 17, 2020 by dachungzi