old3bob Posted November 25, 2020 another context where the word acceptance works is that we have accept starting (or restarting) from where we are at - instead of starting from a way out projection based on transcendental type material that we' ve only read about and intellectualize on. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bindi Posted November 25, 2020 19 minutes ago, dwai said: Ok, let’s do a mind exercise. Let’s say you’re driving down a highway in a convertible. Not a cloud in sight. The sun is shining happily — wind blowing your hair softly. Suddenly, a thunderstorm rolls in, rains heavily, before you had a chance to do anything about it. By the time you’re done raising the roof, you are soaked, the hair that was softly flying in the wind is now a tangled mess, all clothes wet and uncomfortable. What option do you have except accept the situation? Do you have any option to not accept it? No, there is no other option really, unless someone just feels like being obtuse and for instance becoming a flat earther. So if acceptance of a situation is already inevitable, why make a point of saying we need to accept the situation? Learning to accept situations that can’t be changed is wise, but there seems to be a concept that comes through from new agers and neo-advaitans and dzogchen practitioners that everything should be accepted, actually everything, and there’s no qualifier saying ‘accept everything and then change what needs to be changed.’ The Serenity prayer makes more sense to me with regards to acceptance: God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,Courage to change the things I can,and Wisdom to know the difference. 19 minutes ago, dwai said: if you don’t accept it, what is the outcome going to be? For you to work on your subtle or physical well-being, do you not have to take stock and accept that you are “unwell”? 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted November 25, 2020 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Bindi said: No, there is no other option really, unless someone just feels like being obtuse and for instance becoming a flat earther. So if acceptance of a situation is already inevitable, why make a point of saying we need to accept the situation? Aha! That’s because most people don’t accept the situation. A lot of the spiritual wisdom of the world is really stating the obvious — there really are no “secrets” per se And yet, when it’s the right time, for the right person, these very obvious truths can be life transforming. Quote Learning to accept situations that can’t be changed is wise, but there seems to be a concept that comes through from new agers and neo-advaitans and dzogchen practitioners that everything should be accepted, actually everything, and there’s no qualifier saying ‘accept everything and then change what needs to be changed.’ The Serenity prayer makes more sense to me with regards to acceptance: God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,Courage to change the things I can,and Wisdom to know the difference. I agree — that’s a wonderful thing to aspire for. We all should, and yet most are stuck in their dogged resistance to the inevitable, flailing at the proverbial windmills that life throws at us, like Don Quixote. Edited November 25, 2020 by dwai 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
liminal_luke Posted November 25, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Bindi said: If I accept myself as I am with all my perceived flaws, would I be inclined to change anything about myself? It doesn´t make sense logically, but I believe that acceptance is a precondition of change. Let´s take an example of a change many people would like to make that´s close to my heart (ahum) -- losing weight. You might imagine that the people who are most despondent about their obese bodies are the most likely to take action, but it´s not so. Pizza parlors the world over are popular with folks who feel great contempt for their bodies and zero motivation to diet. Paradoxically, when we move toward acceptance of ourselves as we are, skinny or fat, we lay the groundwork for change. When we are accepting of ourselves we´re free to change -- or not. Nonacceptance, on the other hand, saps motivation. Edited November 25, 2020 by liminal_luke 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stirling Posted November 25, 2020 5 hours ago, Nungali said: Bullshit ! That isnt ' reality ' - things are going on right now that we can help change . Hello friend! Let's see if we can find some common ground here. I feel like my initial comment answers many of your objections, but I am happy to clarify. In my post I said, "generally", but I might have said "mostly". Most people spend their days and nights suffering over what has already happened, or about what they imagine might happen. In my experience it is hard to be upset about something that is happening this moment because it is only in retrospect that we fill in the blanks about their meaning conceptually. The parable of the second arrow is a fine illustration of this point: https://tricycle.org/magazine/second-arrow/ - Quote And should that cancel out the tings that we do not accept that are happening NOW ! That are in process now ? I address this where you quoted me as saying: Quote If something is happening and you are driven to stop it ACT. If you can calm what seems like an impending fight, or right a letter to your congressman, or march with like minded people in this moment, then PLEASE do so. The ability to act or have intent arise is ALWAYS available in this moment... but at no other time. - Quote If you question was phrased without that rather silly 'travel in time ' clause , I could supply you with a list of personal achievements and accomplishments ..... and also a list of the people who where helped , assisted , comforted. changed . The time travel metaphor is there to point out that past events cannot be changed... I'm sorry it didn't connect with you, but I doubt the ideas behind it are any real surprise. Obviously events in the past have already happened... your accomplishments have also already happened, as have the moments where you there for someone. Also in the past (and unchangeable) are the moments where you failed to help, did something unintentional, made a mistake, or were intentionally bellicose or unhelpful.. That's just how the past IS... unchangeable. - Quote Even things that have results of what happened in the past can be changed now . I should not even HAVE to give examples for that , you should be able to detect and observe them . The results can be changed sure. What bearing does that have on what has ALREADY happened? If you wait long enough EVERY event can be cast in a positive light in some way or another. Does that matter? Only if you are trying to assuage your guilt, I think. Later ramifications don't change the original event in the slightest. Does a nice apology from a murderer change a loved ones death? If you intentionally burned a forest of unique species to the ground destroying them permanently, but later planted a forest that fed 50 people for a few years does that make your initial action OK? What matter is ALWAYS now. There is one place where you can have an intention and act. It's now. There is one place where you REALLY exist. It's now. Quote Who can wait quietly while the mud settles? Who can remain still until the moment of action? Observers of the Tao do not seek fulfilment. Not seeking fulfillment, they are not swayed by desire for change. - Tao Te Ching, Chapt 15 The moment of action is THIS moment. Always. - Quote Now you seem at odds about what you said above . Which wasnt about liking or accepting things but saying there was inability to effect change ; " ... cannot be changed. Accepting this is accepting reality as it is. " I don't honestly think I am at odds, though I am appreciative of any criticism of my ideas that might illuminate such an inconsistency. What is happening NOW minus our ideas about whether or not we like it is reality. Good or bad are conceptual frameworks we create moment to moment that are illusory. Things just ARE. I would imagine this insight is writ large all over this bulletin board. You can't exist anywhere but this moment, therefore you cannot be present in them to change anything. You CAN have an intention in THIS moment and act on it. Even WITH your intention and action, reality happens AS it happens. Your ability to effect change is directly related to the size of your presence in the causes and conditions of things. Quote If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. - Carl Sagan If we believe science, the universe is quite ancient. The preconditions of the big bang set the initial conditions of the universe before a human was ever even a vague possibility. What is the weight of your ideas and actions about what happens? Infinitesimal. If we are working to understand and appreciate how "self" is illusory, this is a fine place to start. No action we take or intend is the product of our agency - this is an aspect of the deepest understanding of reality. Ultimately, in "no self", the first stable realization of things as they are, it is understood that no-"one" exists apart from phenomena arising and passing to manhandle reality and bend it to "her/his/their" will. There is just "this" happening "now". Sorry for the rambling. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stirling Posted November 25, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Bindi said: If I accept myself as I am with all my perceived flaws, would I be inclined to change anything about myself? Spiritual growth to me is fundamentally changing things, not just coming to a greater acceptance of who I am as I am in this moment. I can change the state of my subtle body by clearing subtle channels, and non-acceptance of my current state is required to begin this action. There is a problem with this "self" - it's an illusion. In the context of the Tao, or Buddhism it isn't the "self", or personal spiritual growth we are working to change here, it is a broken perspective about how things truly are and "our" place in it. In Buddhism anyway, the "self", the "subtle body", the channels, and even non-acceptance are relative teachings - the imagined province of an unreal "self". https://www.lionsroar.com/what-are-the-two-truths/ Edited November 25, 2020 by stirling sponge pudding Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
old3bob Posted November 25, 2020 The Self is eternal and real, when it comes down to the brass tacks nothing else will fully satisfy or finally vanquish any doubt. Om Tat Sat 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted November 25, 2020 On 21/11/2020 at 7:18 PM, Limahong said: Hi steve, "Acceptance" reverberates with "Wu-wei"? - Anand I think this diagram is missing the mark in some ways. For instance, self-pity can easily go hand in hand with blaming others. They belong on the same side, really. The actual 'yin opposite' of blaming others would not be self-pity, but blaming self; put differently, guilt. Which is in fact another way of avoiding acceptance and 'the universal lesson'. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted November 25, 2020 6 hours ago, Bindi said: I disagreed with this concept specifically: “accept IT as it is, with all of its perceived flaws.” Does this suggest take appropriate action (or not)? If I accept myself as I am with all my perceived flaws, would I be inclined to change anything about myself? Spiritual growth to me is fundamentally changing things, not just coming to a greater acceptance of who I am as I am in this moment. I can change the state of my subtle body by clearing subtle channels, and non-acceptance of my current state is required to begin this action. Yes and no. The Daoist approach to 'perceived flaws' is to continue perceiving them, giving them room, becoming familiar with them, understanding their roots. Change can ensue quite naturally from there. It's the principle of non-resistance... What has been called the water course way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted November 25, 2020 2 hours ago, stirling said: Hello friend! Let's see if we can find some common ground here. Okay, where are you ? Quote I feel like my initial comment answers many of your objections, but I am happy to clarify. In my post I said, "generally", but I might have said "mostly". Most people spend their days and nights suffering over what has already happened, or about what they imagine might happen. In my experience it is hard to be upset about something that is happening this moment because it is only in retrospect that we fill in the blanks about their meaning conceptually. The parable of the second arrow is a fine illustration of this point: https://tricycle.org/magazine/second-arrow/ Well, since I dont spend my days and nights suffering and being upset all the time I suppose all of this is addressed to 'most people' . Quote - I address this where you quoted me as saying: The ability to act or have intent arise is ALWAYS available in this moment... but at no other time. - The time travel metaphor is there to point out that past events cannot be changed... I'm sorry it didn't connect with you, but I doubt the ideas behind it are any real surprise. Obviously events in the past have already happened... your accomplishments have also already happened, as have the moments where you there for someone. Also in the past (and unchangeable) are the moments where you failed to help, did something unintentional, made a mistake, or were intentionally bellicose or unhelpful.. That's just how the past IS... unchangeable. I meant the effect of things . I dont care to much about events but effects last , can go on, be changed or stopped . Quote The results can be changed sure. What bearing does that have on what has ALREADY happened? Because the RESULTS are effects and they continue from what has already happened . Maybe YIU are stuck in the past a bit , with all this focus on events in the past . I am more interested in the now and the future where effects from past events play out, may still be playing out and may continue to do so in the future . Quote If you wait long enough EVERY event can be cast in a positive light in some way or another. Yeah, sure , and if I am good when I die I will go to heaven . . . my reward eventually awaits me , in some distant alternate reality . You have led a nice sheltered life haven't you . Or not , and you had to come up with some way of being able to handle the bad bits . Here is a story for you . It goes back to the 80s . I used to work in refugee relocation in Australia . Back then a lot where Bahai's from Iran , persecuted after the Islamic revolution there . I got to know a few of them fairly well . Some of them showed me the permanent scars and disfigurations from their torture . But they where religious , some had developed attitudes like yours . Thats valid, considering what they had been through . That was fine for them . I went to one of there info nights on Baha'i There where some visitors including an elderly Euro couple . They asked why if there was a God so much evil existed in the world . They went around giving the usual opinions , again, valid considering what they had been through . Some of it I didnt agree with one bit though . neither did this couple . They seemed to be getting more and more upset but holding it in . I felt to put a stop to it and said ; " Look, its fine to philosophize about our own suffering but really , do we know what others have had to deal with ? " The man thanked me for that so I continued " I have a feeling you have been through great suffering , may I ask if I am correct ?" He looked at his wife and she hesitated but then she nodded and they rolled their sleeves up and showed us old serial numbers tattooed on the inside of their wrists . Well, that shut up the philosophy . I asked if they wanted to talk about it and she shook her head no . So then I asked "Would you like a cup of tea ?" and she said " Yes, that would be lovely ." So we had tea and cake , and I found out some interests they had and we talked about that instead . Quote Does that matter? Only if you are trying to assuage your guilt, I think. Later ramifications don't change the original event in the slightest. Does a nice apology from a murderer change a loved ones death? It might change the EFFECTS of the murder that linger on . Who are the apologising to , the victims mother , a judge ? Is it sincere , did the mother want an apology ? I have seen some people REALLY appreciate a murderers apology , and it can change the loved ones death , for them . Of course it wo'lt change the death and no we cant time travel back and change it . I mean DURRRR ! We should not even be discussing that aspect of things . Quote If you intentionally burned a forest of unique species to the ground destroying them permanently, but later planted a forest that fed 50 people for a few years does that make your initial action OK? Quote What matter is ALWAYS now. There is one place where you can have an intention and act. It's now. There is one place where you REALLY exist. It's now. The moment of action is THIS moment. Always. I'll deal with this part ^ tomorrow . Quote I don't honestly think I am at odds, though I am appreciative of any criticism of my ideas that might illuminate such an inconsistency. What is happening NOW minus our ideas about whether or not we like it is reality. Good or bad are conceptual frameworks we create moment to moment that are illusory. Things just ARE. Goody and bad are conceptual frameworks that hold cultures together . They are only 'illusory' when taken out of context . Quote I would imagine this insight is writ large all over this bulletin board. What, the insight that "Things just are . " Quote You can't exist anywhere but this moment, therefore you cannot be present in them to change anything. You CAN have an intention in THIS moment and act on it. Even WITH your intention and action, reality happens AS it happens. Your ability to effect change is directly related to the size of your presence in the causes and conditions of things. Indeed. I agree , but then again I am a magician . So I am agreeing because you used the 'Your ability' option instead of the ' One's ability ..." Quote If we believe science, the universe is quite ancient. The preconditions of the big bang set the initial conditions of the universe before a human was ever even a vague possibility. What is the weight of your ideas and actions about what happens? Infinitesimal. If we are working to understand and appreciate how "self" is illusory, this is a fine place to start. No action we take or intend is the product of our agency - this is an aspect of the deepest understanding of reality. Ultimately, in "no self", the first stable realization of things as they are, it is understood that no-"one" exists apart from phenomena arising and passing to manhandle reality and bend it to "her/his/their" will. There is just "this" happening "now". Thanks, I will quote that to people that are suffering . I am sure it will help . Quote Sorry for the rambling. Oh, thats okay ..... its been nice chatting with you . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idiot_stimpy Posted November 25, 2020 (edited) There is a difference between the exoteric and esoteric. We can have the same term, but it can have different meanings. This does not mean one is better than the other. Looking at acceptance from an esoteric viewpoint, is about self acceptance and openness in the moment. If thoughts or emotions appear, they are accepted as they are. Thoughts and emotions are born inside of us, they rise up, and then fall away and disappear. If we are continually in internal conflict waging war against different parts of ourselves, how can we hope to make peace within. Quote Sixteen Empty yourself of everything. Let the mind become still. The ten thousand things rise and fall while the Self watches their return. They grow and flourish and then return to the source. Returning to the source is stillness, which is the way of nature. The way of nature is unchanging. Knowing constancy is insight. Not knowing constancy leads to disaster. Knowing constancy, the mind is open. With an open mind, you will be openhearted. Being openhearted, you will act royally. Being royal, you will attain the divine. Being divine, you will be at one with the Tao. Being at one with the Tao is eternal. And though the body dies, the Tao will never pass away. Edited November 25, 2020 by idiot_stimpy 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted November 25, 2020 14 hours ago, Nungali said: IMO many people with this acceptance of everything attitude has to do with people becoming 'dis empowered' . I have to disagree. When this elusive idea and practice of acceptance is understood and skillfully engaged, there is nothing more powerful. Think of Gandhi's quote - "You can chain me, you can torture me, you can even destroy this body, but you will never imprison my mind.' I think the dispute we see here is related to whether we are applying this idea of "acceptance" to what we are thinking and feeling in ourselves vs to external visions and circumstances and what is meant by acceptance in this context. The way towards understanding what is meant by this teaching is through the former, working with our inner world of experience as it arises for us just as Bindi mentioned earlier. Once we have experience and stability with that, it naturally extends to external matters. Once again, it does not mean that we do not change things. It does not mean that we tolerate or force approval of anything. It means that the response, if any is needed, comes naturally and spontaneously from a place of clear vision, unimpeded by conflicting emotions and confusion. In this way, it is a pure expression of wu wei. Luke's example of food addiction is a powerful one. If we do not face the fact that we have an addiction or a dysfunctional pattern in our lives, we have no opportunity to act. The alcoholic must first acknowledge that drinking is a problem before any change is possible. This acknowledgement of the truth of our condition in any given moment is closer to the idea of acceptance, as I understand it, than the idea of being OK watching a child drown and doing nothing because I "accept" everything. That is completely missing the point. 5 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C T Posted November 25, 2020 (edited) Dont know about the conventional/mundane application and usefulness of acceptance, but in relation to the Buddhist path, a lot of emphasis is placed on the veritable truth of Suchness (aka Isness, Thusness, or Tathata in Sanskrit), and in working towards the realization of that, one supposedly comes to a place, eventually, where acceptance and rejection, both being causal determinants, are transcended. Either one or the other is seen to dampen spontaneity, and spontaneity, untethered by function & form and unencumbered by conventions in ethics & morality, is a mainstay of Dzogpachenpo. The assertion in the Great Perfection is that liberation cannot arise in the absence of the fruition of spontaneous presence (Tib. Lhun grub, which takes into consideration not only spontaneity, but also the ease of effortlessness and complete naturalness), or, to put it differently, liberation is in fact the direct insight into the groundlessness of the state of pure potentiality that is at the heart of Dzogchen once all the cultural & religious nuances are removed. Of what use is acceptance and rejection when one has stepped out of the confinements of habitual neurotic reactionary patterns and contractive fixations into such a tacit, endlessly expansive space? A space where, as Longchenpa said, the nexus of causality is at once dismantled and intentional attempts to create ideal practice discarded suddenly when one realizes that such intentions, even prior to taking action for attaining said freedom, ultimately becomes obstacles to that very thing which is sought. Edited November 25, 2020 by C T 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted November 25, 2020 16 hours ago, liminal_luke said: When we are accepting of ourselves we´re free to change -- or not. Hi Jesse, Acceptance of ourselves ~ is living well each of one's life? 1 hour ago, C T said: Of what use is acceptance and rejection when one has stepped out of the confinements of habitual neurotic reactionary patterns and contractive fixations into such a tacit, endlessly expansive space? Hi CT, Thank you for this... The human psyche is essentially an ongoing locus of resistance requiring continuous maintenance & monitoring. ~ R. S 16 hours ago, liminal_luke said: Nonacceptance, on the other hand, saps motivation. Hi again Jesse, So don't complain ~ just accept and live forward? When we split hair on acceptance ~ life becomes bald? Hair/here today ~ gone tomorrow? 1 hour ago, C T said: Of what use is acceptance and rejection when one has stepped out of the confinements of habitual neurotic reactionary patterns and contractive fixations into such a tacit, endlessly expansive space? A space where, as Longchenpa said, the nexus of causality is at once dismantled and intentional attempts to create ideal practice discarded suddenly when one realizes that such intentions, even prior to taking action for attaining said freedom, ultimately becomes obstacles to that very thing which is sought. Hi again CT, The human psyche is essentially an ongoing locus of resistance requiring continuous maintenance & monitoring. ~ R. S Here's to hair! - Anand 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted November 25, 2020 8 hours ago, steve said: I have to disagree. yeah, I should have said, IME(xperience) not IMO 8 hours ago, steve said: When this elusive idea and practice of acceptance is understood and skillfully engaged, there is nothing more powerful. Think of Gandhi's quote - "You can chain me, you can torture me, you can even destroy this body, but you will never imprison my mind.' He was man that refused to accept domination, even though it might be forced upon him . What I am talking about is a whole lot of people I have seen have a lame attitude of acceptance ... see below . 8 hours ago, steve said: I think the dispute we see here is related to whether we are applying this idea of "acceptance" to what we are thinking and feeling in ourselves vs to external visions and circumstances and what is meant by acceptance in this context. The way towards understanding what is meant by this teaching is through the former, working with our inner world of experience as it arises for us just as Bindi mentioned earlier. Once we have experience and stability with that, it naturally extends to external matters. Once again, it does not mean that we do not change things. It does not mean that we tolerate or force approval of anything. It means that the response, if any is needed, comes naturally and spontaneously from a place of clear vision, unimpeded by conflicting emotions and confusion. In this way, it is a pure expression of wu wei. Luke's example of food addiction is a powerful one. If we do not face the fact that we have an addiction or a dysfunctional pattern in our lives, we have no opportunity to act. The alcoholic must first acknowledge that drinking is a problem before any change is possible. Agreed . What I was describing is someone who accepts the problem . Its a like using acceptance as a cover up . 8 hours ago, steve said: This acknowledgement of the truth of our condition in any given moment is closer to the idea of acceptance, as I understand it, than the idea of being OK watching a child drown and doing nothing because I "accept" everything. That is completely missing the point. Yes it is . And that attitude has its origin in some ideas about 'kama' - they probably did wrong in a past life ... perhaps we should not interfere in their fate ? To me this concept has generated from being disempowered . Basically I can agree ... sit here in my comfortable position , read and nod philosophically . But 'out in the field' its different . If someone is having a REALLY hard time, they might not need or want any philosophy about acceptance or kama , they might need something a bit more practical . Other people might need just that . I am more geared towards helping the first type . Perhaps its because I have seen some people sprout philosophical about OTHERS suffering, and more annoying , sprout philosophically TO THEM while they are suffering , yet I have seen those same people fall apart when they have their own suffering and their crutch had become useless . 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted November 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Limahong said: Hi Jesse, Acceptance of ourselves ~ is living well each of one's life? yes ... okay . 1 hour ago, Limahong said: Hi CT, Thank you for this... The human psyche is essentially an ongoing locus of resistance requiring continuous maintenance & monitoring. ~ R. S Hi again Jesse, So don't complain ~ just accept and live forward? See ! Even THAT urks me ! Head down .... keep working .... dont complain ! 1 hour ago, Limahong said: When we split hair on acceptance ~ life becomes bald? Hair/here today ~ gone tomorrow? I dont think I will ever go bald ! I keep getting a no. 3 and it just grows with a vengance . My hair even broke someone's clippers ! Wait ! ....... maybe that has to do with my non acceptance of acceptance ! RAAAAAGH ! 1 hour ago, Limahong said: Hi again CT, The human psyche is essentially an ongoing locus of resistance requiring continuous maintenance & monitoring. ~ R. S Here's to hair! - Anand 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bindi Posted November 25, 2020 Two stories I have come across regarding an unusual level of acceptance, the first a robbery at Ramana Maharshi’s Ashram, the second a robbery at the hut of Saint Seraphim of Sarov. Thoughts? Quote Robbery at the Ashram “It was a dark summer night about 11-30 P.M. on 26th June, 1924. After midnight many thieves entered the ashram.” Mastan shouted, “Who is it?” The thieves replied by smashing the glass panes of a window. The thieves then ran up and smashed the window near Maharshi who calmly sat in silence. Kunju then opened the northern door of the hall and brought Ramakrishna from an adjoining hut for help. Meanwhile, through the open door, the two dogs of the Ashram, Karuppan and Jack, ran out, but the thieves beat them mercilessly. The sickly Karuppan howled and came back immediately, while Jack ran away. When Kunju returned to the hall, he and Maharshi told the thieves that they were welcome to enter and take what they liked. Still without listening to them the thieves kept digging out a window from the wall. Then Kunju began to use threats and said he would give them a good drubbing if they persisted in their mischief; and he tried to go out of the southern door to face the thieves. Maharshi dissuaded him, saying: “Let these (thieves) play their role (Dharma); we shall stick to ours. Let them do what they like; it is for us to bear and forbear. Let us not interfere with them.” Despite this unruffled forbearance of Maharshi and of Kunju, who obeyed Maharshi’s direction, the bluster and mischief of the thieves increased. The thieves threatened to burn down the thatched roof. Maharshi told them that they should not do that and offered to leave the hall and go away with the other inmates. This was the very thing they wanted. Maharshi wanted the sickly dog Karuppan first to be taken to a safe place lest the thieves should beat and kill it, so Ramakrishna carried it to a shed. Before he returned, Maharshi with the other disciples went out of the northern door. The thieves beat each of them with sticks. Maharshi received a blow on his left thigh, and at once said, “If you are not satisfied yet, you may strike the other leg also.” Then the beaten party reached the northern shed and sat there. Maharshi told the thieves, “You have the entire hall to yourself; do what you like.” The total worth of the Asram property thus taken was about ten rupees. A thief, grossly disappointed, returned with uplifted stick and said, “Where is your money, where do you keep that?” Maharshi told him that they were poor sadhus living upon alms - and never had cash. After the thief went back, Maharshi advised Ramakrishna and others, who had received injuries, to use some balm for allaying their pain. “But what about Swami?” was Ramakrishna’s inquiry, to which the Swami humorously replied that he had “received adequate pooja”, which literally means worship, though here it signified blows. Ramakrishna then saw the weal on the left thigh of his master. He seized an iron implement and wanted “permission to go in and see what the thieves were doing.” Maharshi noted his excitement and dissuaded him from violence. “We are sadhus, we should not give up our role (Dharma),” he said. “If you go and strike them some may die. That will be a matter for which the world will justly blame not the thieves, but us. These are only misguided men. They are blinded by ignorance. But let us note what is right and stick to it. Sometimes your teeth suddenly bite your own tongue; do you knock them out in consequence?” Maharshi never spoke with anger or pain about the thieves; in fact he rarely referred to the incident. A few days later police recovered some of the Ashram property and the thieves were arrested, promptly tried and convicted. Quote Three robbers in search of money or valuables once came upon him while he was working in his garden. The robbers demanded money from him. Though he had an axe in his hands, and could have put up a fight, he did not want to do this, recalling the words of the Lord: “Those who take up the sword will perish by the sword” (Mt. 26: 52). Dropping his axe to the ground, he said, “Do what you intend.” The robbers beat him severely and left him for dead. They wanted to throw him in the river, but first they searched the cell for money. They tore the place apart, but found nothing but icons and a few potatoes, so they left. The monk, regained consciousness, crawled to his cell, and lay there all night. In the morning he reached the monastery with great difficulty. The brethren were horrified, seeing the ascetic with several wounds to his head, chest, ribs and back. For eight days he lay there suffering from his wounds. Doctors called to treat him were amazed that he was still alive after such a beating. Father Seraphim was not cured by any earthly physician: the Queen of Heaven appeared to him in a vision with the Apostles Peter and John. Touching the saint’s head, the Most Holy Virgin healed him. However, he was unable to straighten up, and for the rest of his life he had to walk bent over with the aid of a stick or a small axe. Saint Seraphim had to spend about five months at the monastery, and then he returned to the forest. He forgave his abusers and asked that they not be punished. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted November 25, 2020 2 hours ago, Nungali said: yeah, I should have said, IME(xperience) not IMO He was man that refused to accept domination, even though it might be forced upon him . What I am talking about is a whole lot of people I have seen have a lame attitude of acceptance ... see below . Agreed . What I was describing is someone who accepts the problem . Its a like using acceptance as a cover up . Yes it is . And that attitude has its origin in some ideas about 'kama' - they probably did wrong in a past life ... perhaps we should not interfere in their fate ? To me this concept has generated from being disempowered . Basically I can agree ... sit here in my comfortable position , read and nod philosophically . But 'out in the field' its different . If someone is having a REALLY hard time, they might not need or want any philosophy about acceptance or kama , they might need something a bit more practical . Other people might need just that . I am more geared towards helping the first type . Perhaps its because I have seen some people sprout philosophical about OTHERS suffering, and more annoying , sprout philosophically TO THEM while they are suffering , yet I have seen those same people fall apart when they have their own suffering and their crutch had become useless . I appreciate that explanation.. Justifying atrocity, depression, or hedonism with ideas like karma doesn’t mean much to me either. I’m talking mainly about practical, personal application. Acknowledging, not distorting, holding onto, or rejecting whatever is there in the moment. That’s basically it. And not getting in the way of whatever needs to happen. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted November 25, 2020 4 hours ago, Limahong said: So don't complain ~ just accept and live forward? Yeah, this sounds whiny but it contains a good point. I have a colleague and friend who complains about a lot of things, very regularly. He says it helps him let off steam. But everyone else can see clearly that it's more like an endless loop that feeds on itself and grows more and more solid and real for him. The steam doesn't release, it builds. And it annoys the people around him (especially people that can't accept things very easily... ). He complains but doesn't change, doesn't offer solutions, doesn't act, and doesn't let it go. So I'd maybe add... 'To complain is always non-acceptance of what is. Get off your ass and do something or give it a rest already...' Complaining really doesn't have much value, it's just verbalized pain. Best to accept that what is happening is happening, like it or not, and do something... or not... 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted November 26, 2020 2 hours ago, Bindi said: Two stories I have come across regarding an unusual level of acceptance, the first a robbery at Ramana Maharshi’s Ashram, the second a robbery at the hut of Saint Seraphim of Sarov. Thoughts? My thoughts turned to ; 1) . Why did monks 'develop' Martial Arts ? 2) I was reminded of this incident at the Murwullumbah Hare Krishna Commune n NSW . Its a happy place, kids seemed content , nice surrounds, they grow food and raise some dairy cows . But some local yobs 'red necks' didnt like like the 'varient culture' in their area ( to put it nicely ! ) and decided to form a mob and go to their property and 'bash the hippies ' . They pulled up near the gate and started threatening them with violence . They where met by a howling mob of devotees , wielding staffs, farm tools and nunchucks . The red necks bolted . They have not had much bother like that since . I guess the red necks never read about Ajurna and Krishna . 4 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stirling Posted November 26, 2020 18 hours ago, Nungali said: Okay, where are you ? Everywhere. Nowhere. Here? Quote Well, since I dont spend my days and nights suffering and being upset all the time I suppose all of this is addressed to 'most people' . I can count on two hands how many I have met that wouldn't go into the group "most people" who suffer or struggle much of their day. It would honestly gladden my heart to think that you are another one of them. Quote I meant the effect of things . I dont care to much about events but effects last , can go on, be changed or stopped . The effects can last, but it still doesn't mean that they work out the way you anticipated. Effects that you act to change or stop are always happening NOW. Unless you time travel. Quote Maybe YIU are stuck in the past a bit , with all this focus on events in the past . I am more interested in the now and the future where effects from past events play out, may still be playing out and may continue to do so in the future . I'm completely stuck in the present at this point. Whatever effects from the past you think are playing out are always doing so in the present, yes? You can't be present for a future event to happen, can you? Now is always where things are happening. It can't be otherwise, except in the imagination. Quote Yeah, sure , and if I am good when I die I will go to heaven . . . my reward eventually awaits me , in some distant alternate reality . You'll never know until now includes that moment. Quote You have led a nice sheltered life haven't you . Why the attempt to antagonize? What about what I initially said most presses your buttons? My guess is your belief in your personal agency feels threatened? Quote Here is a story for you . It goes back to the 80s... Truly, thank you for sharing your story. Quote Well, that shut up the philosophy . I asked if they wanted to talk about it and she shook her head no . So then I asked "Would you like a cup of tea ?" and she said " Yes, that would be lovely ." So we had tea and cake , and I found out some interests they had and we talked about that instead . Sure. Of COURSE you must meet people where they are. Accepting the reality of things as they are is a HUGE step, and in my experience people find a lot of healing in it... but that is my experience. I assume you are also her Some are happier with a conversation about their other interests. We could share our interests outside of dharma and the tao, but I'm honestly here to discuss these topics. I assume these topics interest you to some degree or another? Quote Goody and bad are conceptual frameworks that hold cultures together . They are only 'illusory' when taken out of context . Disagree. Culture, people - all action happens without conceptual ideation in reality. None of the ideas you have ever had are true. None of the things you have ever done required your thinking process. You can only prove this to yourself. Quote What, the insight that - "Things just are . " Perhaps the most powerful insight you can have IF the context of it is properly understood. Quote I agree , but then again I am a magician . So I am agreeing because you used the 'Your ability' option instead of the ' One's ability ..." Magician... so committed to the idea that your agency is real and pliable and your desire or intention effects reality directly? You probably won't like that I would love to eschew either designation, but for the structure of language and intelligibility. Quote Thanks, I will quote that to people that are suffering . I am sure it will help . Of course we both know I wasn't addressing it to any such person, more to people on this board with a fairly specific set of interests. If you want me to say something specific about your suffering, let me know the nature of it and I'll have a go. Quote Its been nice chatting with you . Thank you. It has been a pleasure to chat with you also. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stirling Posted November 26, 2020 4 hours ago, steve said: Acknowledging, not distorting, holding onto, or rejecting whatever is there in the moment. This! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted November 26, 2020 5 hours ago, Nungali said: I guess the red necks never read about Ajurna and Krishna . Hi Nun, Can Mahabharata be compared with COVID-19 ? Let us fight our personal battles first? Everything begins with each of us ~ even COVID-19? - Anand Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted November 26, 2020 17 hours ago, stirling said: Everywhere. Nowhere. Here? So maybe not then . I am standing on solid rock Quote I can count on two hands how many I have met that wouldn't go into the group "most people" who suffer or struggle much of their day. It would honestly gladden my heart to think that you are another one of them. Then your heart is gladdened . Its sad to think so many are like that . But you might be right . I have and have had a great life and found a deep satisfaction, joy and gratitude (sometimes at just being alive ) - even amidst the physical pain .. I live in a great place, pristine nature, forest and beaches ... covid free ! and all sorts of goodies - yet the local chemist distributes anti-depressants at one of the highest rates in the state ( per population) . . Quote The effects can last, but it still doesn't mean that they work out the way you anticipated. Effects that you act to change or stop are always happening NOW. Unless you time travel. Not if my acts stopped the effects Quote I'm completely stuck in the present at this point. Whatever effects from the past you think are playing out are always doing so in the present, yes? You can't be present for a future event to happen, can you? Now is always where things are happening. It can't be otherwise, except in the imagination. You'll never know until now includes that moment. Why the attempt to antagonize? I wanted to see how long it would take you to cast it in a positive light . Quote What about what I initially said most presses your buttons? My guess is your belief in your personal agency feels threatened? Guess again . Quote Truly, thank you for sharing your story. Sure. Of COURSE you must meet people where they are. Accepting the reality of things as they are is a HUGE step, and in my experience people find a lot of healing in it... but that is my experience. I assume you are also her Some are happier with a conversation about their other interests. We could share our interests outside of dharma and the tao, but I'm honestly here to discuss these topics. I assume these topics interest you to some degree or another? No need to assume that . All you have to do is read my past posts to see where I am coming from . Quote Disagree. Culture, people - all action happens without conceptual ideation in reality. None of the ideas you have ever had are true. None of the things you have ever done required your thinking process. You can only prove this to yourself. Thats funny . Quote Perhaps the most powerful insight you can have IF the context of it is properly understood. Magician... so committed to the idea that your agency is real and pliable and your desire or intention effects reality directly? You probably won't like that I would love to eschew either designation, but for the structure of language and intelligibility. I find that a rather weak definition of the art . It seems geared towards making the point you are affirming . Quote Of course we both know I wasn't addressing it to any such person, more to people on this board with a fairly specific set of interests. If you want me to say something specific about your suffering, let me know the nature of it and I'll have a go. I am not suffering ( I dont count the physical pain ) . I realize people find this hard to believe . Quote Thank you. It has been a pleasure to chat with you also. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
