After Self-realization, what else needs to be done?

[dwai]

1 minute ago, dmattwads said:

I think a very helpful thing in this case would to be to define terms more precisely. What is meant by ones definition of enlightenment?

 

From a Classic Buddhist point of view it's rather straight forward it seems. Gain wisdom to see through delusion to let go of attachment to free one's self from rebirth in Samsara.

 

As to other definitions I can not say much as I mainly know Buddhism.

I believe I covered the definition in the OP — Realize your true nature, become free from delusion and break the cycle of rebirth. 

[dwai]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

You’re gonna need to be a bit more direct Dwai. I’m not good a deciphering wise talk.

I was pretty clear. Why don’t you re-read what I wrote? 

3 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Sounds to me like you’re saying that many of the spiritual disciplines are based on confusion. And their ascended masters became confused in the passing on of their teachings?

Our views produce limitations. 

The way out of limitations is in the view,  but also can be trap. It as applicable to me as to you or anyone else.

 

I think the Buddhists articulate it in the form of rafts and crossing of rivers.  

 

3 hours ago, freeform said:

 

All these immortals and rainbow body ascensions are all a mistake because of a simple misunderstanding.

3 hours ago, freeform said:

 

But luckily we have you because you’ve managed to unveil the truth of their mistake?

 

Why does what I’ve written affect you so that you have to respond? 
 

if you think what I wrote is wrong, why does it bother you? Surely you won’t think others will be “misled” by me!?! Is it simply altruism that moves you to respond thus, or Is there a chance that my words cause in you a modicum of introspection, and leads you down an uncomfortable path? 
 

I don’t mean to hurt anyone’s feeling with what I wrote. Just asking questions about things that I find logically bewildering. 

[old3bob]

freedom from karmic driven rebirth yes, but a freely chosen birth would still be possible in certain cases for a being who is free in all realms.

Edited November 27, 2020 by old3bob

[Maddie]

35 minutes ago, dwai said:

I believe I covered the definition in the OP — Realize your true nature, become free from delusion and break the cycle of rebirth. 

 

I suppose you did then.

[Creation]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Realize your true nature, become free from delusion and break the cycle of rebirth. 

Very good. My question is, does the first of these necessarily entail the second and third? I know some say it does, but for whatever reason I suspect it does not.

[Maddie]

14 minutes ago, Creation said:

Very good. My question is, does the first of these necessarily entail the second and third? I know some say it does, but for whatever reason I suspect it does not.

 

I think if you accomplish the first the other two come matter of fact. 

 

So the question is what is true nature? Is there true nature? The Buddha said there was atman, no self. So what does that mean for true nature?

[dwai]

22 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

I think if you accomplish the first the other two come matter of fact. 

I find that One and Two are sort of hand-in-hand. More delusion reduces more Self nature becomes apparent, until one day it shines forth like a thousand suns.

22 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

So the question is what is true nature? Is there true nature? The Buddha said there was atman, no self. So what does that mean for true nature?

That is the matter of realization. What Buddhists call Buddha nature, Hindu advaitins call it “Self”. They even call it “Brahman” or the expanding principle. 

[jzatopa]

Once one learns the Truth, the goal is to get good at being it.  There are no limits so which direction do you go?

[welkin]

8 hours ago, old3bob said:

freedom from karmic driven rebirth yes, but a freely chosen birth would still be possible in certain cases for a being who is free in all realms.

 

Why would that soul choose to rebirth in this world assuming all the suffering that comes along with it as a result of the law of forgetfulness?

[Piyadasi]

@dwai So according to you, you have already realized this nature and have been freed from the cycle of rebirth. If I understand correctly, you've said this in past threads. Apparently there is nothing left to be done for you correct?

Why not just end your life then? (Not saying you should, definitely not!) Genuine question, if there is no more clinging, craving and ignorance, are you at this point motivated by absolute pure compassion? Can you honestly say that you only act solely for the benefit of others with no concern for yourself, as there is nothing to be concerned about? Can you honestly say that you are an immeasurable field of merit for the world as they classically say of an Arahant or Ariya?

Past accounts of Arahants I've read about, they usually do one of these things after they are truly freed from rebirth: They either relinquish their life and die a short while after (there is an account of one Arahant self-immolating through his meditation on the fire element for example); they go into a permanent completely secluded retreat and maybe just live their life out in Jhana or go into stasis and wait for the next Buddha or maybe teach non-human beings, frankly I'm not sure; or more commonly they spend the whole remainder of their lives as teachers for the benefit of others. Do you fall into the last category then? Or am I just wrong according to you?

Edited November 27, 2020 by Piyadasi

[freeform]

9 hours ago, dwai said:

Why does what I’ve written affect you so that you have to respond? 

 

I think it’s the other way round, no?

 

Whenever I post about the alchemical approach suddenly out pops Dwai with his views...

 

which is fine... 

 

But the sheer repeatability and predictability of it tickles me Dwai. The repeated assertion that you’re right and everyone else wrong is also what tickles me. No ‘in my view’ not ‘from the point of view of such and such school of advaita’... You’re very firmly set in your views which is quite funny to me.

 

9 hours ago, dwai said:

Our views produce limitations.

Well - it seems you mean ‘some of our views’. Or do you not see your views as views anymore? 

 

So to answer you - i respond to you because I’m tickled. When any of my friends get overly entrenched in their opinion, they get teased. Even my teacher teases me when I get too serious with practice. We’ve gone round this discussion over and over. So At this point any notion that this is a productive, rational exchange is out the window - so I tease you instead  

 

9 hours ago, dwai said:

I was pretty clear.

Clear as mud I’m afraid. 

 

9 hours ago, dwai said:

Is there a chance that my words cause in you a modicum of introspection, and leads you down an uncomfortable path?

Oh dear. That’s a bit cringey Dwai. I think you’ve misjudged how incisive your insight is to others.

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, welkin said:

 

Why would that soul choose to rebirth in this world assuming all the suffering that comes along with it as a result of the law of forgetfulness?

 

why or why not, to help beings

[idiot_stimpy]

Quote

"It's the karmic mind that endlessly seeks knowledge and more enlightened states through engaging in study, practices and efforts to attain enlightenment.” - Jackson Peterson.

 

[old3bob]

btw I'd say an, "after realization..." is an apparent thing so to speak since Self realization is never found or reached in the future , thus it is not conditional to or in time.   

[Master Logray]

2 hours ago, Piyadasi said:

@dwai So according to you, you have already realized this nature and have been freed from the cycle of rebirth. If I understand correctly, you've said this in past threads. Apparently there is nothing left to be done for you correct?
 

 

This was exactly one of the arguments between Taoist and Buddhist in the old days.  If a person is enlightened, then why he is still living?  

 

For the classical Taoist view, self-realization/enlightenment is only a midway step, though necessary.  The end game is to transform into another being, not only mind but also physically.

 

My own thinking is that, each of us is so different.  They would choose vastly different paths after enlightened.  It is not right to suppose everyone would adopt the same path. 

 

 

 

 

[old3bob]

17 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

This was exactly one of the arguments between Taoist and Buddhist in the old days.  If a person is enlightened, then why he is still living?  

 

For the classical Taoist view, self-realization/enlightenment is only a midway step, though necessary.  The end game is to transform into another being, not only mind but also physically.

 

My own thinking is that, each of us is so different.  They would choose vastly different paths after enlightened.  It is not right to suppose everyone would adopt the same path. 

 

 

I'd say that Self (realization) is not conditional to the life or death of forms, being that both the physical and the most subtle forms are relative so to speak before the eternal Self.  Thus only the Self or if one prefers the "Tao" remains (and never really left) at the turning of the great cosmic cycle while all else returns, including the most subtle  forms or beings;  (aka the "first and the last" to manifest)  for there is only one Self of us in the myriad  of us.

 

[Maddie]

4 hours ago, Piyadasi said:

@dwai So according to you, you have already realized this nature and have been freed from the cycle of rebirth. If I understand correctly, you've said this in past threads. Apparently there is nothing left to be done for you correct?

Why not just end your life then? (Not saying you should, definitely not!) Genuine question, if there is no more clinging, craving and ignorance, are you at this point motivated by absolute pure compassion? Can you honestly say that you only act solely for the benefit of others with no concern for yourself, as there is nothing to be concerned about? Can you honestly say that you are an immeasurable field of merit for the world as they classically say of an Arahant or Ariya?

Past accounts of Arahants I've read about, they usually do one of these things after they are truly freed from rebirth: They either relinquish their life and die a short while after (there is an account of one Arahant self-immolating through his meditation on the fire element for example); they go into a permanent completely secluded retreat and maybe just live their life out in Jhana or go into stasis and wait for the next Buddha or maybe teach non-human beings, frankly I'm not sure; or more commonly they spend the whole remainder of their lives as teachers for the benefit of others. Do you fall into the last category then? Or am I just wrong according to you?

 

Not that I claim to be enlightened at all but it is the goal for me and I have noticed that as I continue on the path that I feel more and more checked out from the whole thing like it seems small and petty and irrelevant, yet at the same time things like kindness and compassion seem to become more important.

[freeform]

15 hours ago, silent thunder said:

reminds me of this excerpt of Tseng Lao-weng speaking to John Blofeld: 

 

  Hide contents

 

 

 

This reminds me of a really delightful period in my life.

 

It's the time when I first moved in with my teacher to live and study with him full-time...

 

These days he's more like a father figure than a teacher - but back then it was an exciting period because I had heard of him years prior and it took a lot of hustling to get an introduction, then a lesson... (then a refusal to teach me...) then some more hustle... then finally an acceptance to be tested. Then months of lessons with his senior...

 

Eventually after jumping all sorts of hurdles and going through a grueling period of training, he unexpectedly invited me to move into his home after an official ceremony. This was huge for me. This was the first teacher I'd met that had something more than just skill... something more than just wisdom... He had the kind of ease and humour that just made anything seem possible. And he was willing to teach me.

 

He had a lovely, humble courtyard home with a few separate buildings. I lived with two other students in one building and teacher, his wife and an elderly aunt lived in another.

 

AS students we'd train pretty much dusk till dawn in the central courtyard among a bunch of chickens, dogs and cats running around chasing one another. Life was simple - train, eat, do some chores, train more and then indoor lectures with some tea.

 

At this point my teacher was just winding down his clinic. Because he was known to heal various issues caused by meditation or cultivation and major psychological issues, he'd be visited by some pretty colourful characters. Buddhist abbots, local celebrities, poets, politicians (or their wives!), rich fathers bringing their spoiled kids to get into training etc etc...

 

My teacher would call it 'courtyard talk'. He'd get a call and be like 'ahh time for courtyard talk' - and go through the gate to meet someone out front.

 

The home was set up with 3 separate courtyards - I guess similar to old Qing dynasty Beijing courtyard houses - but built very modestly out of breeze-blocks, tin roofs etc.

 

The front courtyard was a bit more refined... He had all these cool statues, big stones, a finely tiled overhang roof, some old looking weapons, a small shrine, a little tea table, some charts and official looking things on the walls... This is where he'd have his 'courtyard talks'...

 

These talks were a lesson in Chinese etiquette for me. Teacher seemed to be a different person in the front courtyard. Only a tiny bit of the discussion was translated for me... but it was obvious there was a 'front courtyard teacher' and 'inner door teacher'. Big smiles, lots of face-saving and complement giving. Expertly evading taking tips and gifts when possible.

 

Even without understanding the language you could see through facial expressions just how skilled teacher was in 'courtyard talk'.

 

To get into the inner courtyard you'd have to go up a couple of steps, open the ornate door, go down some steps and you're in a super charming but much more rough-around-the-edges space. (the seemingly pointless steps were to stop ghosts apparently )

 

Over tea is when teacher would explain theory to us. But there was a running joke that would go something like this... teacher would give us some profound insight on a method - (he even had the patience to translate everything for me in his perfect colonial-era English.) Then a student would say something like "but teacher you told your guest that alchemy is just superstition and that his son should just focus on painting instead!?" - teacher would say "ahh yes - courtyard talk." and we'd laugh.

 

And courtyard talk varied - he'd talk of virtue to Buddhists, of philosophy to businessmen, of yin and yang to Daoists, of forgotten needling techniques to acupuncturists...

 

I observed a few layers to the discussion of cultivation. Philosophy, principles, techniques and methods...

 

The majority of 'courtyard talk' was philosophy - though philosophy never made it past the inner gate. Teacher would say that philosophy is to delight the spirit through affecting the heart-mind - this is not for cultivators.

 

Principles and techniques would be open for discussion with other cultivators (and not laypeople - even when requested)... an example of discussion would be on 'Dan Tien Xi Qi' (dan tien inhales the qi)... What does that mean, why do we do it, what are some errors, what are some confirmatory signs etc...

 

What would never be discussed outside of the inner door was methods. And it was clear that many visitors would try to get to methods during 'courtyard talk' - and that's where teacher would demonstrate his social-taiji skills... how to navigate not talking about secrets but still giving the visitor what they want.

 

I recently came across a quote from a Tibetan teacher that perfectly illustrates a valuable 'courtyard lesson' that teacher would give:

 

"When facing death, kings and beggars are treated in the same manner. After death, every sentient being will be thrown around in samsara by their positive and negative karma. Therefore, it is very unwise to commit a negative action, while thinking solely about benefiting this present life."

 

Teacher would often say things like this (particularly to the many Buddhists that came to visit)...

 

But during a tea time talk, in the inner courtyard, he'd make it clear that this is courtyard talk only... Cultivators need not concern themselves about positive or negative karma. Cultivators must release all karma - whether good or bad, by transforming density into light - then he'd demonstrate - first by drawing trigrams and showing the change in state on the causal level of the qi field... then he'd close his eyes and demonstrate it within us. Many life altering changes were made in these demonstrations... then the next day he would show us how we would go about doing it for ourselves (methods).

Teacher would go through several classics just like this. Each starting with principles, moving into the direct causal understanding using the Yi Jing - and finally experiencing it directly, tangibly in the body...

 

"Emptiness should be taken to its extreme and the stillness guarded" (DDJ 16) - is an unambiguous instruction with a direct tangible experience internally... or it's poetic philosophy... depends which courtyard you're in.

Daoism is strange... there are layers - and layers within layers... there are outer perceptions and inner truths... There's a constant dance of paradox and humorous misdirection. There's courtyard talk with laypeople... there's courtyard talk with cultivators... and there's several layers of inner door talk.

 

If it all seems a bit over the top and complex, I completely agree.

 

But once you get past the outer layers things are very direct, clear and tangible...

 

The most complex principles or internal operations can be taught by drawing a few lines and then be experienced directly inside.

 

"Breathing Out -

Touching the Root of Heaven,

One's heart opens;

The Dragon slips by like water..

Breathing In -

Standing on the Root of Earth,

One's heart is still and deep;

The Tiger's claw cannot be moved."

 

Thinking you understand 'the truth' is all well and good... but sometimes you've been given a highly satisfying (or maybe frustratingly unsatisfying) courtyard talk and not the full picture.

 

[idiot_stimpy]

23 minutes ago, freeform said:

Thinking you understand 'the truth' is all well and good... but sometimes you've been given a highly satisfying (or maybe frustratingly unsatisfying) courtyard talk and not the full picture.

 

It's a bit sad, that we are in some type of matrix, some are woken up, and many want to be woken up but can't because they're not the chosen ones.

[freeform]

4 minutes ago, idiot_stimpy said:

many want to be woken up but can't because they're not the chosen ones.

To be honest - what I’ve learned is that ‘wanting’ is by far the easiest part of any endeavour.

 

The many aren’t prepared to sacrifice what it takes to awaken.

 

what you sacrifice (the self), in the end reveals itself to be without an unchanging substance anyway. 

(courtyard talk )

[Piyadasi]

@freeform Thank you for sharing this amazing story with your teacher!

[Piyadasi]

It also reminds me of a saying in Theravada, I can't remember whether it's in the Canon or just something the Thai Ajahns say.

"If laypeople come to learn from you, teach them just enough that they go away."

But everyone is an "Ajahn" nowadays after a few books and dharma talks...

[Maddie]

44 minutes ago, freeform said:

To be honest - what I’ve learned is that ‘wanting’ is by far the easiest part of any endeavour.

 

The many aren’t prepared to sacrifice what it takes to awaken.

 

what you sacrifice (the self), in the end reveals itself to be without an unchanging substance anyway. 

(courtyard talk )

 

Recently I have scaled back a lot as I felt like meditation was driving me crazy. I think I might have been trying to level myself up too soon.

 

Now I mainly chant mantras and rely more on external cultivation methods such as herbs acupuncture and crystals.

 

Is it doing as much as before? I don't know but I don't feel like I'm on the verge of losing my mind so it would seem to be worth it.

[freeform]

16 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

Recently I have scaled back a lot as I felt like meditation was driving me crazy. I think I might have been trying to level myself up too soon.

Meditation is often portrayed as a magic bullet...

 

But it’s not.
 

First of all what people call meditation is so varied. But mostly what they’re talking about is preparatory training for meditation (such as anapanasati or mindfulness)

 

We want things to be simple - but they’re not. All change follows a process of cause and effect - and it’s a long process with many different parts and dependencies.

 

To get anywhere one must follow a genuine process - not a combination of techniques they’ve picked up from books... but ‘do this to create that cause to achieve this result that sets you up for the next cause’

 

One doesn’t stumble onto the correct path accidentally or intuitively - that’s why you must have a correct method from beginning to end.

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, freeform said:

Meditation is often portrayed as a magic bullet...

 

But it’s not.
 

First of all what people call meditation is so varied. But mostly what they’re talking about is preparatory training for meditation (such as anapanasati or mindfulness)

 

We want things to be simple - but they’re not. All change follows a process of cause and effect - and it’s a long process with many different parts and dependencies.

 

To get anywhere one must follow a genuine process - not a combination of techniques they’ve picked up from books... but ‘do this to create that cause to achieve this result that sets you up for the next cause’

 

One doesn’t stumble onto the correct path accidentally or intuitively - that’s why you must have a correct method from beginning to end.

 

Yes I agree and that's why I was following Orthodox Buddhism very rigorously. When I began to first experience side effects I was repeatedly told that there were none so I continued. Experience has shown me otherwise though.