After Self-realization, what else needs to be done?

[dwai]

6 hours ago, Piyadasi said:

@dwai So according to you, you have already realized this nature and have been freed from the cycle of rebirth. If I understand correctly, you've said this in past threads. Apparently there is nothing left to be done for you correct?

I’m certainly not planning to develop a rainbow body  

 

 

6 hours ago, Piyadasi said:

Why not just end your life then? (Not saying you should, definitely not!)

why should I end something which is going to end on its own anyway (sooner or later)?  

Is that how little you value life? 

6 hours ago, Piyadasi said:

Genuine question, if there is no more clinging, craving and ignorance, are you at this point motivated by absolute pure compassion? Can you honestly say that you only act solely for the benefit of others with no concern for yourself, as there is nothing to be concerned about? Can you honestly say that you are an immeasurable field of merit for the world as they classically say of an Arahant or Ariya?

Truth be told, I’d been in a withdrawal mode for a few years, but that’s beside the point. How would you or anyone else on an Internet forum know anything about anyone else if you don’t interact with them on a regular basis?  
 

As far as merit is concerned — Why just me? Everyone is immeasurably meritorious already. Just need to drop the pretense of being separate beings in samsara. 

6 hours ago, Piyadasi said:

Past accounts of Arahants I've read about, they usually do one of these things after they are truly freed from rebirth: They either relinquish their life and die a short while after (there is an account of one Arahant self-immolating through his meditation on the fire element for example); they go into a permanent completely secluded retreat and maybe just live their life out in Jhana or go into stasis and wait for the next Buddha or maybe teach non-human beings, frankly I'm not sure; or more commonly they spend the whole remainder of their lives as teachers for the benefit of others. Do you fall into the last category then? Or am I just wrong according to you?

I’m not a Buddhist, so don’t buy into their mythology. Most of this stuff is basically just mythology.
 

How many Arhants have you or anyone else on this forum met? I’ve met a few good and compassionate teachers, who’ve given me the directions to step out of delusion. For me, they are more valuable than unknown arhants and bodhisattvas.  

 

Wake up! Stop perpetrating the dream. If you don’t, “thank you, come again!”  

[freeform]

15 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

When I began to first experience side effects I was repeatedly told that there were none so I continued.

I’m sorry to hear that.

There most certainly are a huge range of potential problems and pitfalls - and denying that is dangerous and can end up hurting people.

 

15 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

I was following Orthodox Buddhism very rigorously.

It’s very hard to tell if you’re being given genuine instruction or ‘courtyard talk’.

 

Sometimes courtyard talk is all that people have access to and they start to mistake it for the real teaching.

 

In Buddhism there’s often meditation for laypeople (20 minute sits, lots of blessings, chants and so on) and there is the training that leads to Buddhahood... 

 

In my travels, I’ve found that if the sitting practices are shorter than 2 or 3hrs, it’s ‘meditation for laypeople’. Funnily enough many monks also only get the meditation for lay people version of the teachings.

 

Talks for laypeople tend to be grand and philosophical - along the lines of:

 

“Emptiness and luminosity are not two separate things, but rather the nature of emptiness is luminosity, and the nature of luminosity is emptiness. This indivisible emptiness-luminosity, the naked mind, free of everything, dwells in the uncreated state.“

 

Talks for serious cultivators tend to be challenging, direct and practical.

[dwai]

1 hour ago, idiot_stimpy said:

 

It's a bit sad, that we are in some type of matrix, some are woken up, and many want to be woken up but can't because they're not the chosen ones.

If there’s a  classic ‘matrix’, then certainly that (^) is it. There are no chosen ones. Everyone is already free — thinking they are bound, thanks to their conceptual frameworks. 

[dwai]

5 hours ago, freeform said:

I think it’s the other way round, no?

 

Whenever I post about the alchemical approach suddenly out pops Dwai with his views...

Me doth think that thou dost protesteth too much  

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, freeform said:

I’m sorry to hear that.

There most certainly are a huge range of potential problems and pitfalls - and denying that is dangerous and can end up hurting people.

 

It’s very hard to tell if you’re being given genuine instruction or ‘courtyard talk’.

 

Sometimes courtyard talk is all that people have access to and they start to mistake it for the real teaching.

 

In Buddhism there’s often meditation for laypeople (20 minute sits, lots of blessings, chants and so on) and there is the training that leads to Buddhahood... 

 

In my travels, I’ve found that if the sitting practices are shorter than 2 or 3hrs, it’s ‘meditation for laypeople’. Funnily enough many monks also only get the meditation for lay people version of the teachings.

 

Talks for laypeople tend to be grand and philosophical - along the lines of:

 

“Emptiness and luminosity are not two separate things, but rather the nature of emptiness is luminosity, and the nature of luminosity is emptiness. This indivisible emptiness-luminosity, the naked mind, free of everything, dwells in the uncreated state.“

 

Talks for serious cultivators tend to be challenging, direct and practical.

 

I would do week-long retreats at monasteries with the monks where we would spend the vast majority of the day meditating. Additionally back when I was in Acupuncture school we used to have two week breaks in between semesters and I would take what I learned from the monastery and basically spend those two weeks doing nothing but meditating all day everyday.

[Maddie]

18 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

I’m not a Buddhist, so don’t buy into their mythology. Most of this stuff is basically just mythology.
 

How many Arhants have you or anyone else on this forum met? I’ve met a few good and compassionate teachers, who’ve given me the directions to step out of delusion. For me, they are more valuable than unknown arhants and bodhisattvas.  

 

Probably within the last year or so I've been very much questioning my tendency to buy the party line so to speak. I used to be Christian of the hardcore fundamentalist type until I realized that their Bible wasn't literally true and it all fell apart from me. Fast forward several years and when I became Buddhist I pretty much brought the same mentality into it with me but lately have begun to think that the Buddhists also tend to embellish their stories a bit and also have somewhat of an agenda. Not to say I don't value it but I'm definitely rethinking my approach to any system as it's packaged to the public.

[doc benway]

31 minutes ago, dwai said:

I’m certainly not planning to develop a rainbow body  

 

Good news, it's not something one can develop... 

Anymore than one can develop Self

[Maddie]

3 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Good news, it's not something one can develop... 

Anymore than one can develop Self

 

The illusion of a self can be and is frequently developed. 

[Limahong]

48 minutes ago, dwai said:

Everyone is already free — thinking they are bound, thanks to their conceptual frameworks. 

 

Hi dwai,

 

With conceptual frameworks ~ there is no freedom.

 

Why?

 

Such frameworks ~ frame.

 

- Anand

 

 

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

I’m certainly not planning to develop a rainbow body

 

20 hours ago, Nungali said:

"what is the purpose of developing a rainbow body?"

-    it seems to be about fun and enjoyment

 

 

 

 

[Creation]

15 hours ago, dmattwads said:

 

I think if you accomplish the first the other two come matter of fact. 

 

So the question is what is true nature? Is there true nature? The Buddha said there was atman, no self. So what does that mean for true nature?

Hey, didn't you just come to an epiphany about questioning formerly held beliefs?

 

In all seriousness though, I know this is what many say, but I know quite a few people who have awakened, to varying degrees, some full-on, 24/7 anatta/sunyata realization, and I can put you in touch with them if you would like to talk about what that means.  But they are not free from "all delusion" in the sense that they can be wrong about things, and I don't see any reason to think they are free from reincarnation, seeing as they likely had such realization in past lives in order to get it so young in this life, and yet here they are.  

 

Think of it like this - suppose you awakened to your nature in a past life and were told "There is nothing more to do, you will not reincarnate", and it seemed sensible enough, because there was no you and no doing anymore, but life carried on, chop wood carry water.  Then you reincarnated anyway, no big deal, no you no doing.  Maybe you awaken again, maybe you repeat this a few times.  Eventually, one of these lives you awaken and even though there is no you and no doing, there arises in experience an investigation, "There is occasional anger, greed or lust arising here, that is, self-interested behavior even though it is seen that there is no self, does that have to be the case?", or "When awakening happened, there was a sense of energy released in my system, or a profound absorption into a state where the body was no longer perceived, is that something that can be deepened?" etc etc.  So even though there is no you and no doing, aspects of the spiritual path emerge, because life has carried on.  Maybe such a person would find an alchemical path at some point, and there would be a natural attraction to it.  

[Maddie]

9 minutes ago, Creation said:

Hey, didn't you just come to an epiphany about questioning formerly held beliefs?

 

In all seriousness though, I know this is what many say, but I know quite a few people who have awakened, to varying degrees, some full-on, 24/7 anatta/sunyata realization, and I can put you in touch with them if you would like to talk about what that means.  But they are not free from "all delusion" in the sense that they can be wrong about things, and I don't see any reason to think they are free from reincarnation, seeing as they likely had such realization in past lives in order to get it so young in this life, and yet here they are.  

 

Think of it like this - suppose you awakened to your nature in a past life and were told "There is nothing more to do, you will not reincarnate", and it seemed sensible enough, because there was no you and no doing anymore, but life carried on, chop wood carry water.  Then you reincarnated anyway, no big deal, no you no doing.  Maybe you awaken again, maybe you repeat this a few times.  Eventually, one of these lives you awaken and even though there is no you and no doing, there arises in experience an investigation, "There is occasional anger, greed or lust arising here, that is, self-interested behavior even though it is seen that there is no self, does that have to be the case?", or "When awakening happened, there was a sense of energy released in my system, or a profound absorption into a state where the body was no longer perceived, is that something that can be deepened?" etc etc.  So even though there is no you and no doing, aspects of the spiritual path emerge, because life has carried on.  Maybe such a person would find an alchemical path at some point, and there would be a natural attraction to it.  

 

It raises the question though. If there is no sense of self and no desire what would there be to cause rebirth?

[Creation]

10 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

It raises the question though. If there is no sense of self and no desire what would there be to cause rebirth?

That's just it, in the people I know who have dropped their sense of self, desire and other emotions still arises because the body is still functioning. I certainly don't know what actually causes rebirth, nor am I actively trying to not be reborn, but what freeform says about transforming the emotions into virtues being an important part of the Daoist path is very interesting to me, since seeing the self is an illusion doesn't do this automatically. 

 

Another point that should be made is that there are degrees of dropping the sense of self.  You might see your egoic, human self is an illusion, but be identified with a cosmic self, which is still a self.  

Edited November 27, 2020 by Creation

[Limahong]

23 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

It raises the question though. If there is no sense of self and no desire what would there be to cause rebirth?

 

Hi dmattwads,

 

KARMA SUTRA

 

 

 

- Anand

 

[anshino23]

If you're interested in the Buddhist take on this. Essentially when the Buddha told all the Arhat's during the Lotus Assembly that there was more work to do, 500 of them walked right out of his assembly It's not nice when you've dedicated your entire life to awakening, and then someone comes around and says, "That's just the beginning. There's more."   There are subtle realms created by very slight attachment to views. It's one of the hardest things to let go of allegedly. 

 

A very useful schema for navigating this question comes from the Yogachara teachings (a system within the Mahayana). It's called the five paths, and applies to both the journey to enlightenment within a single life, and the grand journey over countless lives.     

 

Before entering the first path, one is amidst the ocean of beings not engaged in any sort of cultivation or spiritual efforts whatsoever.

 

The first path is the path of gathering provisions, also called the path of accumulation. Here a person changes their thinking and behavior slowly from bad to good, earning "merit" (a concept describing the stored potential for wholesome or positive karmic fruition, including things like health, comfort, free-time, availability of dharma teachings, etc.) One also begins to practice meditation or cultivate single-mindedness in some form (not necessarily Buddhist). Basically, one draws together the behaviors and attitudes that are conducive to realizing the fruits of the enlightenment teachings.

 

The second path is the path of application, or the path of yoga. This is where one moves from the outer branches closer inward to the trunk (of true awakening). Meditation is now beginning to be practiced correctly and with results; for the first time, the true potential of both the body and mind begins to rise and show appreciable signs. At the apex of this, the second path, one enters the "highest mundane state" meaning that for someone yet unenlightened, you've arrived at the peak of meditation.

 

The third path is the path of seeing. Here one truly realizes insight into nonconceptual truth (emptiness, buddha-nature, true reality, what-have-you), and becomes enlightened. In terms of the Mahayana, you're now officially an Arya-Bodhisattva at the beginning of the great 10 stages toward perfect enlightenment. You permanently remove various aeons-old defilements from within the ground of consciousness.

 

Moving further, you enter the fourth path of "true cultivation". Here one progresses, equipped with insight, to eradicate all the karmic hindrances from one's beginningless past, removing all emotional obscurations and blockades to the unimpeded, universal understanding of all phenomena. You gain power and skill in both self-liberation and in the instruction of others, mastering eloquence, knowledges both worldy and dharmic, all forms of meditation, etc.

 

Finally, you arrive at the fifth path of freedom, or no-more-learning. You're done! Totally enlightened, totally liberated, completely endowed with anything that could be considered a buddha-attribute. Nice work.

 

[Limahong]

32 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

You're done! Totally enlightened, totally liberated, completely endowed with anything that could be considered a buddha-attribute. Nice work.

 

 

On 11/27/2020 at 12:54 AM, dwai said:

After Self-realization, what else needs to be done?

 

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2020 by Limahong
Enhancement

[old3bob]

The Self can not be gained (as things can be gained) for if it could be gained as a thing then it could also be lost,  The Self does not start or finish for it always is the eternal.

 

soul evolution may be gained or lost, but either way soul is not fully satisfied except when in synchronization with the Self, its Source.

 

Perhaps the historic Buddha came to the same conclusion when he said,    

“Wonder of wonders! Intrinsically all living beings are Buddhas, endowed with wisdom and virtue,

but because men’s minds have become inverted through delusive thinking they fail to perceive this.”

— Buddha

Edited November 27, 2020 by old3bob

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, dmattwads said:

 

The illusion of a self can be and is frequently developed. 

 

Definitely

I was referring to rainbow body and its relationship to the deeper, unfabricated, primordial Self

[old3bob]

30 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Definitely

I was referring to rainbow body and its relationship to the deeper, unfabricated, primordial Self

 

hmm, you used the term "Self" with a capitol while many here have apparently been stuck on the term self... 

[Limahong]

8 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

hmm, you used the term "Self" with a capitol while many here have apparently been stuck on the term self... 

 

We can sell both 'self' and 'Self'? 

 

Yes? Very good. 

.

Both 'soul'... 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2020 by Limahong
Enhancement

[Tesla3]

2 hours ago, Creation said:

Hey, didn't you just come to an epiphany about questioning formerly held beliefs?

 

In all seriousness though, I know this is what many say, but I know quite a few people who have awakened, to varying degrees, some full-on, 24/7 anatta/sunyata realization, and I can put you in touch with them if you would like to talk about what that means.  But they are not free from "all delusion" in the sense that they can be wrong about things, and I don't see any reason to think they are free from reincarnation, seeing as they likely had such realization in past lives in order to get it so young in this life, and yet here they are.  

 

Think of it like this - suppose you awakened to your nature in a past life and were told "There is nothing more to do, you will not reincarnate", and it seemed sensible enough, because there was no you and no doing anymore, but life carried on, chop wood carry water.  Then you reincarnated anyway, no big deal, no you no doing.  Maybe you awaken again, maybe you repeat this a few times.  Eventually, one of these lives you awaken and even though there is no you and no doing, there arises in experience an investigation, "There is occasional anger, greed or lust arising here, that is, self-interested behavior even though it is seen that there is no self, does that have to be the case?", or "When awakening happened, there was a sense of energy released in my system, or a profound absorption into a state where the body was no longer perceived, is that something that can be deepened?" etc etc.  So even though there is no you and no doing, aspects of the spiritual path emerge, because life has carried on.  Maybe such a person would find an alchemical path at some point, and there would be a natural attraction to it.  

This makes a lot of sense. I'm most familiar with what Krishna teaches in the Gita pertaining to this. He taught Karma yoga. Krishna says one should perform all actions without expectations for results. This includes not only "spiritual practices" but worldly duties as well. Performing all of one's duties in this manner leads to freedom. Karma yoga says that after one has realized union, they go on performing all of their duties as if nothing has changed. I think this caries on to sadhana as well. I have wondered, what is the reason a liberated person would continue with these practices? With that logic, you could also ask, why would a liberated person stop their practices? From what I've noticed many saints have continued their sadhana long after people around them think they have become fully realized. I don't know as much about Buddhism. I have read a handful of books on Zen. From what I remember they said that Satori was certainly not the end and that practices should be continued. I don't know if the reasoning to continue with practices is the same as Karma yoga's, or if it's purpose is to better fine tune one's Buddha nature. With your reasoning both make sense. It is obvious that people go through awakenings and think they have reached the final goal, when they have not. I think India's dogmatic view of a true guru needing to be fully realized to teach, has become engrained in Hindus. Of course we can get much help from people that are farther than us on the path but the fundamental thinking is, if they are not fully realized they are not valid. So we have an endless supply of fully realized beings. So if some Buddhists believe that fine tuning is needed after Satori, that makes sense to me. 

[Sketch]

It seems like wondering if a musician should (or could) quit practicing their instrument once they become "good enough" at it.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2020 by Sketch

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

 

hmm, you used the term "Self" with a capitol while many here have apparently been stuck on the term self... 

As did you...

We’re pointing in a similar direction.

[dwai]

3 hours ago, Creation said:

Hey, didn't you just come to an epiphany about questioning formerly held beliefs?

 

In all seriousness though, I know this is what many say, but I know quite a few people who have awakened, to varying degrees, some full-on, 24/7 anatta/sunyata realization, and I can put you in touch with them if you would like to talk about what that means.  But they are not free from "all delusion" in the sense that they can be wrong about things, and I don't see any reason to think they are free from reincarnation, seeing as they likely had such realization in past lives in order to get it so young in this life, and yet here they are.  

 

Think of it like this - suppose you awakened to your nature in a past life and were told "There is nothing more to do, you will not reincarnate", and it seemed sensible enough, because there was no you and no doing anymore, but life carried on, chop wood carry water.  Then you reincarnated anyway, no big deal, no you no doing.  Maybe you awaken again, maybe you repeat this a few times.  Eventually, one of these lives you awaken and even though there is no you and no doing, there arises in experience an investigation, "There is occasional anger, greed or lust arising here, that is, self-interested behavior even though it is seen that there is no self, does that have to be the case?", or "When awakening happened, there was a sense of energy released in my system, or a profound absorption into a state where the body was no longer perceived, is that something that can be deepened?" etc etc.  So even though there is no you and no doing, aspects of the spiritual path emerge, because life has carried on.  Maybe such a person would find an alchemical path at some point, and there would be a natural attraction to it.  

It is perfectly okay to continue with whatever path we’ve taken. There is no compulsion or necessity to do so. 
 

Also the whole spiel about not “being there after awakening” is a myth. “You” don’t disappear. Just that you realize the personality-body-mind isn’t you.  

[dwai]

25 minutes ago, Sketch said:

It seems like wondering if a musician should (or could) quit practicing their instrument once they become "good enough" at it.

 

 

 

 

If you feel so moved to do it, by all means. If not, do something else. I know of many musicians who don’t “practice” but simply play.  
 

Once we  learn the alphabet, do we still do “ a for Apple, b for ball”? 

Edited November 27, 2020 by dwai