After Self-realization, what else needs to be done?

[dwai]

6 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

No - nothing I said is about intellectually knowing - that doesn't even feature in what I was referring to and is just a preliminary.

 

Well, we'll have to disagree   there is an alchemical process, what you are calling realization is a stopping off point, an important one , but not the goal.

 

 

The way I see it is — one either gets it or doesn’t. Once one gets it, there’s no more speculation about next steps. 

[Apech]

11 minutes ago, dwai said:

The way I see it is — one either gets it or doesn’t. Once one gets it, there’s no more speculation about next steps. 

 

speculation?

[dwai]

28 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

speculation?

You know...speculation -- what might or might not be the next steps  

 

P.S. -- One of the big things I find is that the tendency to objectify "Self" is very much prevalent. The reason Self-realization is not partial, or incomplete or has a "wait wait there's more" is because the Self is not a thing. It is not an object of knowledge like the body, or subtle body, or even the mind. It is that which knows. So when "realization" occurs, it is just a dropping of superimposition of the personality (which thinks it is a mind-body composite with history, with likes, dislikes, etc etc). The reason why one can't directly talk about it or even show it to another is because it is not an object that can be perceived by the sense-organs, or even the mind (intellect). It is a realization because once the veil of personality is seen through, there is no doubt about what the Self/True Nature is. There is nothing more to be done. The "individual" might think there is a lot more to be done...but in maturation of the realization one realizes the scope, breadth and range of this "Self/True Nature" -- Everything comes in its purview. 

Edited November 28, 2020 by dwai

[Limahong]

17 hours ago, Mithras said:

The general story of self realization has to do with the self, the person.

 

But of course.

 

To each ~ his/her own realized self.

 

If not ~ who else, what else...

 

 

 

[Limahong]

17 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

I said I wanted to be unquestioningly accepting of myself, like a rock.  Rocks are refreshingly free of neurotic inner conflicts and existential anxieties.  They just are. 

 

 

 

 

[Limahong]

17 hours ago, steve said:

Phet!

 

 

Hi steve,

 

What is...

 

 

- Anand

 

 

Edited November 28, 2020 by Limahong
Enhancement

[Limahong]

17 hours ago, steve said:

Spaciousness is the ultimate rock

 

I beg to differ ~ sand.

 

The sand of...

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2020 by Limahong
Enhancement

[Paradoxal]

47 minutes ago, dwai said:

You know...speculation -- what might or might not be the next steps

"There is no such thing as 'no such thing'" is a quote I find quite applicable here. It is useful to exercise caution whenever speaking in absolutes, as it is extremely easy for a freak possibility to exist. 

 

A village of people believes that there is nothing outside the walls of said village. One person claims there to obviously be things beyond the walls, as said individual has seen such things for themselves. The rest of the village may ostracize said individual, for none of them have seen what he has seen. Yet, in not checking for themselves, the villagers do not realize that there is a pack of wolves inhabiting the forest until the wolves grow to be too many in number, and destroy the village as a whole.

[Limahong]

5 minutes ago, Paradoxal said:

"There is no such thing as 'no such thing'" is a quote I find quite applicable here. It is useful to exercise caution whenever speaking in absolutes, as it is extremely easy for a freak possibility to exist. 

 

Hi Paradoxal,

 

 Absolutely.

 

 

- Anand

 

 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

You know...speculation -- what might or might not be the next steps  

 

P.S. -- One of the big things I find is that the tendency to objectify "Self" is very much prevalent. The reason Self-realization is not partial, or incomplete or has a "wait wait there's more" is because the Self is not a thing. It is not an object of knowledge like the body, or subtle body, or even the mind. It is that which knows. So when "realization" occurs, it is just a dropping of superimposition of the personality (which thinks it is a mind-body composite with history, with likes, dislikes, etc etc). The reason why one can't directly talk about it or even show it to another is because it is not an object that can be perceived by the sense-organs, or even the mind (intellect). It is a realization because once the veil of personality is seen through, there is no doubt about what the Self/True Nature is. There is nothing more to be done. The "individual" might think there is a lot more to be done...but in maturation of the realization one realizes the scope, breadth and range of this "Self/True Nature" -- Everything comes in its purview. 

 

I understand what you are saying - but don't agree.  It's nothing to do with speculation.

[Limahong]

16 hours ago, Nungali said:

Why did I not think of this before !

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

After you found out, you knew, but didn’t believe.

 

Hi Nun,

 

Now that you have been told ~ you believe?

 

I am not sure if...

 

 

 

- Anand

 

[Limahong]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

It doesn’t matter once the body is  dropped. 

 

Hi dwai,

 

But of course...

 

 

 

 

- Anand

 

 

[Limahong]

31 minutes ago, Apech said:

I understand what you are saying - but don't agree.  It's nothing to do with speculation.

 

Hi Apech,

 

But...

 

 

Veronica dearly relates ~ speculate with accumulate.

 

But it is speculate for me ~ I am going to sleep.

 

dwai ~ keep on accumulating...

 

Good night.

 

- Anand

 

 

Edited November 28, 2020 by Limahong
Enhancement

[old3bob]

I'd say that the wording of, "one gets it"  should be more like, It gets one... 

Edited November 28, 2020 by old3bob

[Bindi]

If the Self might be termed my Spirit, and that’s already a big if, but if it can, then it can get our attention quite early on. Then it needs to find a way to communicate what it needs us (our conscious self) to do, and how to do it. I have found that in general my Spirit wants my subtle energy channels to be clear, I can’t say why because it’s not my conscious mind that makes this decision, but I’d say this is what there is to do once our Spirit has been recognised, a lot of clearing and cleaning from emotional and mental to karmic issues. This is what makes it as good as a lifetime job. 
 

Recognising you are the Self and that there is nothing left to do is in my mind a false conclusion, yes you may be the Self, but your conscious mind is not actually aligned with the Self in any true fashion, which is why this error can be made. 

[doc benway]

3 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

 

Hi steve,

 

What is...

 

 

- Anand

 

 

 

Hi Anand,

Phet

Sounds like 'pay'

Is a Tibetan seed syllable.

It is often used to cut through delusion, through the busy mind.

It brings the mind to the clarity and immediacy of the present moment in the quiet and still space after shouting PHET!

Sort of like getting whacked by a Zen master's stick.

I was once hanging out with some friends and it spontaneously came out of me really loud and sharp, totally unexpected.

One of the guys, not a practitioner of anything in particular, responded to it powerfully, told me it "woke me up!"

 

 

[doc benway]

5 hours ago, dwai said:

Seeing vs realizing. You mean like “intellectually knowing” Vs. “realizing”?

 

There's also seeing, in the sense of having an awakening experience (or several) vs realizing or actualizing it thoroughly and consistently in one's life in action. There's a wide swath of awakening and realizing beings, from those of us who get a glimpse and do little with it other than lust after more or chat about it, to those who are Bodhisattvas or manifest the 3 bodies fully in nearly every moment of their sleeping, dreaming, waking, and dying lives, to use Buddhist words. 

(and I don't mean to say you or anyone else here is one or the other, that is for each of us to determine for ourselves in each and every moment as practitioners)

 

Quote

I thought I made it clear in the OP that I mean realization. It’s like this — you’ve been told that you’re something — let’s say a white British guy. But you didn’t know about it prior to that, because you grew up in a neighborhood of Italians, and you even adopted their mannerisms, habits, etc. After you found out, you knew, but didn’t beleive. But then you looked in the mirror, you went over your family tree and realized you were British all along.
 

Self realization is along similar lines — when you realize your true nature, it is no longer “seeing”, “knowing intellectually” or even “understanding”. 

 

But there are varying degrees of expression and manifestation in our lives...

 

Quote

 

we tend to ascribe that to karma. Now that’s a very complex topic of discussion. Self is direct and simple. 

I disagree  

There is nothing else needed to be done or realized or converted once Self realization occurs. There are still things that (can) happen to the body-mind-personality in terms of dropping of karmic tendencies. Or not. It doesn’t matter once the body is  dropped. 

 

There is everything to be done once Self realization occurs, I meant that literally.

One can sit on a park bench and complain (like UG Krishnamurti) or teach (like K)

One can teach, serve others, try to make money on it, get some free sex, etc...

Different realized beings have done different things with it... 

 

Self realization is the beginning of that part of our path, the part that continues past awakening.

It is a verb and may continue or may falter and shrivel.

If we end there, it is dead really.

Useful to no one. 

I've learned that, for me, the relative aspect of our lives remains equally important as the vehicle through which we can continue to realize the absolute Truth and to allow it to manifest in our lives and the lives of those around us.

If we express it in our lives through music, art, healing, creativity, loving, sharing, connecting with others,... whatever, then it is really alive!

 

Just one way to look at it but I think it's an important aspect. 

This is the important lesson I learned from TWR.

 

The reason I brought that up is that the rainbow body does require far more than simply waking up and realizing the nature of our being. Several folks here have had awakening experiences. None of us have yet dissolved into light. If one accepts that is possible, then the path can be investigated and practiced and it requires a very thorough degree of manifesting the unfabricated essence in every moment of life. Not at all something that just happens of its own accord.

It is a gargantuan undertaking of doing absolutely nothing whatsoever! 

 

But truly nothing is undone.

 

 

[dwai]

18 minutes ago, steve said:

Several folks here have had awakening experiences. None of us have yet dissolved into light. If one accepts that is possible, then the path can be investigated and practiced and it requires a very thorough degree of manifesting the unfabricated essence in every moment of life. Not at all something that just happens of its own accord.

Beautifully articulated in your previous post. If you see carefully, I’ve not said anything about “unfolding” as that is in the context of the apparent personality, which may or may not continue. 
 

The one case for rainbow body I can see is when there is a desire to remain active in the human realm to teach/help liberate  (aka the bodhisattva vow). That too is part of a view. 

[Geof Nanto]

On 28/11/2020 at 10:02 AM, Apech said:

@dwai and everyone,

 

I've read some of the previous posts but not all of them.  So sorry if I'm repeating.  To reply to the OP:

 

I think you're fundamentally wrong if I understand what you are saying.  Or perhaps I should say that I understand things in a different way.  This is based on my own researches and thoughts and not any particular system (though I draw on my Egyptian researches a little).

 

I suppose I could say that seeing your true nature and fully realising it are not the same thing.  Most mysticism talks of the first and for most of us this is the goal.  But seeing one's true nature still has a tinge, an element of dualism.  So on the path we first have to see - in order to travel so to speak.  In some literature seeing one's true nature and realising it completely are confused - this is because the first is a major accomplishment and it is hard for us to imagine past it.  But the fact is, right from the start we are working with both awareness and energy/substance.  The dawning of pure awareness is the end of the path of seeing - but by then at least we have pacified, regulated and transformed the subtle body enough to have clear vision.  But this does not mean we are beamed up to some higher existence.  In fact we are only part way through an alchemical process and we still have life, in a body, in a place, with particular relationships and so on.  This is not an accident.

 

The formation of the rainbow or diamond body, the body of light/energy, the logos body is when you have truly aligned, integrated and realised the non-dual nature of awareness and energy/substance, completely and indestructibly.

 

 

 

Your final sentence has strong parallels with what is meant by true xing-ming cultivation in Neidan according to Li Daochun and Liu Yiming.  Could be reworded as follows:

 

The formation of the Golden Elixir is when you have truly aligned, integrated and realised the non-dual nature of awareness (xing) and energy/substance (ming), completely and indestructibly.

 

Easy to say, next to impossible to do. And so many different paths. From my practice: True emptiness is the womb from which it grows and is born.  The Golden Elixir, the atman, the Self. 
 

[doc benway]

3 hours ago, Yueya said:

 

Your final sentence has strong parallels with what is meant by true xing-ming cultivation in Neidan according to Li Daochun and Liu Yiming.  Could be reworded as follows:

 

The formation of the Golden Elixir is when you have truly aligned, integrated and realised the non-dual nature of awareness (xing) and energy/substance (ming), completely and indestructibly.

 

Easy to say, next to impossible to do. And so many different paths. From my practice: True emptiness is the womb from which it grows and is born.  The Golden Elixir, the atman, the Self. 
 

 

I offer that one teaching from the name “elixir” is that we must sip it over time. While the alignment and realization are complete and indestructible, insofar as it is a quantum perspective shift that doesn’t revert, our connection to it is fluid. We can connect and disconnect. The impossible to do part, if we’re lucky enough to get the alignment and realization, is continuity. So we must periodically sip.

That is practice, whether on or off the cushion.

 

... at least that’s my experience

[old3bob]

The Self knows beyond regular knowing that it is not a self, yet works through a self  or selves...

(otherwise the "Vanity of vanities" would be the bottom line)

 

Nothing can be added to or taken away from the Self by any powers or methods of the mind.

We often hear ourselves say, "my mind" or "my spirit" but those are only apparent or relative before the Self

since 'the mind' is used as a tool and 'the soul' comes to know that it does not exist without 'the Spirit' . 

(and can really do nothing without and by the quintessential power of 'the Spirit' with the Self)

 

Edited November 29, 2020 by old3bob

[Sketch]

I see where my ideas are different from how a few of you cats think. 

 

I'm just interested in moving forward. An  idea of "Perfection"  is useless to me. Good for you folks who "Achieved " what you set out to do. We're all better off with you as you are now. That's how I understand the story of Milarepa, too.

 

If I ran out of skills to develop, what would I do then? Does Cook Ding run out of Oxen to butcher?

It's just more music. Once you get the instrument in tune, you begin. You join the music, you don't make it.  The music never stops.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Sketch

[Sketch]

My friends who are fishing guides still love to go fishing.

[silent thunder]

music.

 

where does music exist? 

where does music live?

 

in the instrument?

in the musician?

in the air?

 

in the fingers?  in the breath? 

                           or the strings?

 

in the mind?

in the ear?

in the air?

 

when i think of music, when i hear music only in my mind but not my ear, is this music?

 

where does music live?

is there a difference between music arising and music abiding?

is there an appreciable difference between arising and abiding?

 

I share this not to distract, but because @Sketch reminded me of this question that arises often for me in recent years.

This metaphor of musician instrument and music is a resonant one for me...  And a triad, not a duality ^{(which pings a resonant significance)}

 

And after pondering where music lives for a time...

i found mind substituting the word awakening for music to rather interesting results.

 

[silent thunder]

Quote

“Truth is a pathless land.”

 

Man cannot come to it through any organization, through any creed, through any dogma, priest or ritual, not through any philosophical knowledge or psychological technique. He has to find it through the mirror of relationship, through the understanding of the contents of his own mind, through observation and not through intellectual analysis or introspective dissection.—J. Krishnamurti, The Core of the Teachings

 

Quote

I would say that in my scientific and philosophical work, my main concern has been with understanding the nature of reality in general and of consciousness in particular as a coherent whole, which is never static or complete but which is an unending process of movement and unfoldment.—David Bohm, Wholeness and the Implicate Order

 

Quote

As soon as you see something, you already start to intellectualize it. As soon as you intellectualize something, it is no longer what you saw.

 

 You must be true to your own way until at last you actually come to the point where you see it is necessary to forget all about yourself.
Shunryu Suzuki

 

Quote

Individuality is only possible if it unfolds from wholeness.
 

 

The notion of a separate organism is clearly an abstraction, as is also its boundary. Underlying all this is unbroken wholeness even though our civilization has developed in such a way as to strongly emphasize the separation into parts.
David Bohm

 

Quote

“Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real.”

 

“A physicist is just an atom's way of looking at itself.”
― Niels Bohr