After Self-realization, what else needs to be done?

[manitou]

16 hours ago, silent thunder said:

Does a flower strive to unfold?

Does a fern strain to unfurl?

 

 

 

This is beautiful. Going under the assumption that a flower doesn't strive to unfold, this is a perfect metaphor for life unfolding day to day.  I'm retired, I don't work at anything.  My prior work life was very fast, very pressured.  I was brought up with this Puritan work ethic thing.  I had felt guilty upon first retiring - retiring is not really an easy thing when you've been constantly geared up.  I felt guilty for not being more productive.  That lasted for quite a few years.  But finally, I understand my part in the whole thing.

 

As I see it now, just bringing Presence to any situation will help.  I realize that more each day.  I now have the time to be of service to someone who needs it.  By not-doing, not-saying, not-judging.  I think it's incredible to see how things actually can shake out if we don't have our hands all over it.

[manitou]

On 12/2/2020 at 5:54 AM, idiot_stimpy said:

 

I have read, that with true self mastery of our internal world, comes a mastery of the external world. As both internal and external are the same, the elements, now subdued, can be directed. I'm not sure if this is true or not however its interesting to note. 

 

What I've noticed is that the manifestations change.  Not overnight, but a general upward trend starts and doesn't really seem to stop.  Good things abound.

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, manitou said:

I'm retired, I don't work at anything.

 

Hi Barbara,

 

You have not retired ~ but retyred?

 

Have you changed your tyres to "sport rim"?

 

   

 

 

Vroom...

 

- Anand

 

[Jadespear]

On 11/27/2020 at 6:41 AM, Master Logray said:

 

This was exactly one of the arguments between Taoist and Buddhist in the old days.  If a person is enlightened, then why he is still living?  

 

For the classical Taoist view, self-realization/enlightenment is only a midway step, though necessary.  The end game is to transform into another being, not only mind but also physically.

 

My own thinking is that, each of us is so different.  They would choose vastly different paths after enlightened.  It is not right to suppose everyone would adopt the same path. 

 

 

 

 

 

...I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the only real end game in any of this is two fold;

1.  Understand everything

2.  Choose a way to be of service to everything. 

 

The real cool thing is that no matter who you are, what you are, what you are doing - you are already doing this.  The great tao has endowed all that arises from itself to be in harmony with itself.  It is impossible to refute the absolute truth.  

 

All spirituality and religion are like ways to reveal more of the truth to oneself...including every practice to become something different or greater than what one currently is.  But even then, as the brightest and most luminous star of enlightened intelligence... you'd still have to do something for something or someone.  Albeit possibly just yourself.

 

 

[Hannes]

I have a feeling that after realizing the question becomes moot.

 

An analogy would be the gateless gate. 

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, Hannes said:

 

An analogy would be the gateless gate. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[forestofclarity]

From the Chan point of view, it is often said that just because the sun is out it doesn't mean all of the ice is melted. Usually, there is a twofold process: 1) removing ignorance and 2) cultivating the positive expressions. The second is used to benefit sentient beings. 

 

In addition, from a Tibetan Buddhist POV, you have levels of insight. the first level is the understanding level, where you get it mentally. The second level is experiential, where you have experienced, but there is no stability. The third level is realization, which is unchanging. There is a saying that goes:
 

Quote

Understanding is like a patch, it will fall away. Experiences are like the mist, they will fade. Realization is like space, unchanging. 

 

From this level, people will confuse 1/2 with 3. Often what prevents the progression are mental/energetic habits, and one's capacity. 

 

At any rate, this is an ongoing debate in Buddhism, usually revolving around two axes: 

 

1. Gradual vs sudden. The most common compromise in Chan/Zen is sudden enlightenment, gradual cultivation. But there are other schools with different combinations.  

 

2. Easy vs. complex. In Buddhism, this comes up all the time. There is always skepticism of the orthodox school about the new schools. Many of the arguments in this thread have been leveled at the Chan/Zen school, Dzogchen, etc. 

 

I see these same points argued again and again, but often each side fails to see the other, until some realized master comes along and fuses them together. 

 

 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, forestofemptiness said:

From the Chan point of view, it is often said that just because the sun is out it doesn't mean all of the ice is melted. Usually, there is a twofold process: 1) removing ignorance and 2) cultivating the positive expressions. The second is used to benefit sentient beings. 

 

In addition, from a Tibetan Buddhist POV, you have levels of insight. the first level is the understanding level, where you get it mentally. The second level is experiential, where you have experienced, but there is no stability. The third level is realization, which is unchanging. There is a saying that goes:
 

 

From this level, people will confuse 1/2 with 3. Often what prevents the progression are mental/energetic habits, and one's capacity. 

 

At any rate, this is an ongoing debate in Buddhism, usually revolving around two axes: 

 

1. Gradual vs sudden. The most common compromise in Chan/Zen is sudden enlightenment, gradual cultivation. But there are other schools with different combinations.  

 

2. Easy vs. complex. In Buddhism, this comes up all the time. There is always skepticism of the orthodox school about the new schools. Many of the arguments in this thread have been leveled at the Chan/Zen school, Dzogchen, etc. 

 

I see these same points argued again and again, but often each side fails to see the other, until some realized master comes along and fuses them together. 

 

 

The arguments are age-old, across multiple traditions.
 

Because the individual strives and works hard towards realization, but that which is realized, once realized, turns the individual transparent. it is a very subtle shift, but is permanent.

 

Preparation is gradual, complex and difficult, realization is sudden,  simple and easy. Because after realization it becomes apparent that all the effort, time and complexity was unnecessary — paradoxical, at the same time, the time, effort and complexity did happen.

 

Is there a causal relationship between the two?  Not really, because one is already what they’re seeking. 
 

[forestofclarity]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

 

Is there a causal relationship between the two?  Not really, because one is already what they’re seeking. 
 

 

To fall again on Chan paradigms, there is what you are, and that never changes. This is the essence. What changes is how it (not that there's an "it") expresses. That is the function. So the work is not the change the essence, but the function. 

 

I would go further and say that while the essence is unchanging, the recognition of that does change, as does the depth and stability,  of that recognition (which is actually at the experiential point outlined above). So it's one thing to be the Self (so to speak) and another thing to recognize or forget that you are the Self. Just like in a dream, I may recognize I'm dreaming and be free, or forget I'm dreaming and be bound by it. And this recognition comes and goes in the dream. 

 

But even when recognized, the mere recognition is not enough--- one's entire being should be reorganized around that recognition, so that one lives it moment to moment. Like in the dream, once I recognize I'm dreaming, it can be a lot of work to bring my actions in line with that recognition-- such as learning to fly or put my arm through a wall. 

 

 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

To fall again on Chan paradigms, there is what you are, and that never changes. This is the essence. What changes is how it (not that there's an "it") expresses. That is the function. So the work is not the change the essence, but the function. 

 

I would go further and say that while the essence is unchanging, the recognition of that does change, as does the depth and stability,  of that recognition (which is actually at the experiential point outlined above). So it's one thing to be the Self (so to speak) and another thing to recognize or forget that you are the Self. Just like in a dream, I may recognize I'm dreaming and be free, or forget I'm dreaming and be bound by it. And this recognition comes and goes in the dream. 
 

There certainly can be an oscillation initially between the old habits and the unchanging Self, in the mind. It is the mind which is deluded or is illuminated. 

1 hour ago, forestofemptiness said:

But even when recognized, the mere recognition is not enough--- one's entire being should be reorganized around that recognition, so that one lives it moment to moment. Like in the dream, once I recognize I'm dreaming, it can be a lot of work to bring my actions in line with that recognition-- such as learning to fly or put my arm through a wall. 

 

 

It’s a bit different from lucid dreaming in my experience/understanding. In (typical) lucid dreaming, the dreamer’s identification is with the waker, not the unchanging true nature. So there is effort required to gain “control” in the dream. 

When realization happens, many things automatically change and shift to align with this original identification. For example, fear of death disappears. Most old habits lose their power, and so on.
 

Main thing is that the recognition of our True Nature remains throughout the 3 states of waking, dreaming and deep sleep. Old patterns arise in the dream state and can be released/dissolved. This kind of “lucid” dreaming I found was effortless — not as the waker but as that which recognizes itself in the dream objects/beings that appear before it. Same thing happens also in the waking state. 

 

 

[old3bob]

fear of death is gone but I'd say a sort of apprehension exists (at least for the me) until most all of karma and ego is resolved ...since their is still remains an "x" amount of karma and ego after Self realization per "recognition" as Forest of emptiness alludes too; after that part of the process it seems that only a trace of disciplined ego would remain as an interfacing function in this world, but of course I'm a long ways from such a great soul of scintillating white light!  

[dwai]

4 minutes ago, old3bob said:

fear of death is gone but I'd say a sort of apprehension exists (at least for the me) until most all of karma and ego is resolved ...since their is still remains an "x" amount of karma and ego after Self realization per "recognition" as Forest of emptiness alludes too; after that part of the process it seems that only a trace of disciplined ego would remain as an interfacing function in this world, but of course I'm a long ways from such a great soul of scintillating white light!  

This is called “lesha avidya”

Spoiler

 

 

[manitou]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

it seems that only a trace of disciplined ego would remain as an interfacing function in this world,

 

 

Enough to stay out of oncoming traffic.

[old3bob]

On 5/25/2021 at 11:01 AM, dwai said:

This is called “lesha avidya”

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

In English that is ignorance.  So I'd say such is so with 99.999% of us incarnated souls in human forms including most pundits, yogis, swami's and gurus who are not yet great and fully evolved souls of scintillating white light, (for The Self to manifest through) although we are somewhere on the way...relatively forward, or backwards or sideways....

Edited May 26, 2021 by old3bob
touch up

[dwai]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

In English that is ignorance. 
 

Minimal conditional ignorance  

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

So I'd say such is so with 99.999% of us incarnated souls in human forms including most pundits, yogis, swami's and gurus who are not yet great and fully evolved and great souls of scintillating white light, although we are somewhere on the way...relatively or forward, or backwards or sideways.

 

[silent thunder]

What could be more potent and direct,

than to be present and abide as is, now...

 

raw awareness abiding.

 

this is it

[old3bob]

Silent Thunder, I'm not sure about that term usage of "raw" by itself.  For instance and in analogy raw lighting is at millions+ volts and maybe a million+ amps and in that raw form electricity will or can incinerate people, places and things, but harness it with  transformers and all sorts of electrical processes can be run from the lowest energy requirements to the highest.   So to me the term refined awareness speaks more to the idea of that which is capable of working with all levels of awareness/being  without burning them up, not unlike how a seed in the ground can not take direct sunlight until it grows up.  

[manitou]

I think that raw-ness and is-ness are pretty much the same thing here.  I've never had an awareness self-immolate.  

 

However, the analogy can be made that in old3bob's metaphor of the seed and the hot sun, that the Realization causing the Shift is a realization that must push ego aside, or the whole thing gets out of hand fast.

[old3bob]

In the context spoken of below which is part of what I'm trying to get at,  who  can withstand (or is really prepared and ready for) beholding  raw power per a raw awareness of same?

 

Bhagavad Gita, Ch 11, Vs 30 – 31
30 – 31
O Lord, you are lapping up and devouring all these people from all directions. You are burning the entire universe with the fierce, all-pervading rays of your radiance. O You of Terrifying form, who are You? My obeisance to You, O God of gods, have mercy on me. You existed before all Creation and I want to understand who you are, for I do not know what you intend to do! 

 

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by old3bob

[doc benway]

In dzogchen writings, the Natural State is often referred to as "self-secret," meaning that even as we are in the midst of it, being a manifestation of it, or having it directly pointed out to us, it is only reveals itself to us when we are ready.

What does it mean to be ready?

No one really knows for sure, and it varies from person to person and time to time, but I am certain that a part of it is that we are able and willing to listen actively and openly, we often say nakedly, without the activity of our ideas and beliefs getting in the way.

The voice of the source is extraordinarily subtle despite the fact that it is all-pervasive and indestructible. 

A clue - some voices here, and elsewhere, speak directly from the source. While they may not be Buddhas or fully enlightened, there is a clarity and authority in their words that can be a beacon to finding our own direct taste. 

We can listen or we can correct them so that they are more in line with our own concepts and opinions.

Food for thought, or no-thought as the case may be...

 

 

[dwai]

I find that “pure awareness” (as in unmodified by senses) is many things to many people at various stages of their spiritual quest.

Most are oblivious to it. 

 

To some it is the scary unknown unknowable. To some others it is the most intimate as their own Self, to some others still it is the tranquil sky of clear knowing, and to others yet it is the Lord of all creation who resides in their innermost sanctum sanctorum. 
 

 

[doc benway]

31 minutes ago, dwai said:

I find that “pure awareness” (as in unmodified by senses) is many things to many people at various stages of their spiritual quest.

Most are oblivious to it. 

 

To some it is the scary unknown unknowable. To some others it is the most intimate as their own Self, to some others still it is the tranquil sky of clear knowing, and to others yet it is the Lord of all creation who resides in their innermost sanctum sanctorum. 
 

 

 

One thing I’ve learned is that what we experience when connecting to this source is not so much the source itself but rather the opposite of whatever was obstructing us before. So one person may feel incredibly open, another may feel connected to everyone and everything, another may feel all powerful or all knowing. This is simply because they were previously feeling the opposite and when that obscuration drops, the experience of what was being obscured is very profound. The direct experience of the source is beyond words and concepts. The instant we label it or “understand” it we are already grasping and limiting, and we are already mistaken and disconnected. This is why it is said that the conceptual mind can never know it, as it is itself an obstacle in the beginning.

[old3bob]

many souls, many truths...

 

but only One Sat...Om Tat Sat

[manitou]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

(as in unmodified by senses)

 

 

Nice.

[manitou]

1 hour ago, steve said:

 

One thing I’ve learned is that what we experience when connecting to this source is not so much the source itself but rather the opposite of whatever was obstructing us before. So one person may feel incredibly open, another may feel connected to everyone and everything, another may feel all powerful or all knowing. This is simply because they were previously feeling the opposite and when that obscuration drops, the experience of what was being obscured is very profound. The direct experience of the source is beyond words and concepts. The instant we label it or “understand” it we are already grasping and limiting, and we are already mistaken and disconnected. This is why it is said that the conceptual mind can never know it, as it is itself an obstacle in the beginning.

 

Good observations!

 

'The instant we label it or "understand" it we are already grasping and limiting.'

 

I couldn't agree more.  When in the zone, it's not so much an all-knowing thing as a vacuous, spacious sensation.  But there is all-knowing, not because we hold the information in our heads, but because we've shrunk ego sufficiently so that we are an open conduit to the knowledge that dwells in the All.  It's there for the taking, once the ego has been modified sufficiently.  In fact, I do have a channel that pops in now and then, saying things that didn't come out of my brain.  It only pops in when needed.