Who thinks Bill Bodri is right?

[Cameron]

Been a long line of energy practice based Tao pracitioners here with some empty mind emphasis thrown in here and there.

 

Was curious who here fully agrees with Bill Bodri when he writes basically all energy practices being a side path to cultivation?

 

 

There has been quite alot of talk from different Tao school practices. From Healing Tao, Lei Shan Dao, Kunlun, Wudang, Tien Shan, Water Method as well as a huge assortment of different qigong/neigong methods.

 

Does anyone think all these energy practices are at best a sidetrack and worse damaging to cultivation? Like another huge attachment?

 

I notice people get into energy practice then tend to get strongly attached to there method as being the best method. You can see the evidence here.

 

Bodri/Nan seem to emphasize just sit still and be quiet and everything that is supposed to happen energetically will happen. That the work of cultivation has to do with watching the mind, not doing this and that with energy.

 

Adyashanti as well as most of the Zen and Advaita crowd seem to make the same point in a less serious way.

 

So, was wondering about it. My guess is in ancient China they would discuss this and my experience lately makes me think people who emphasize emptiness meditation over qigong or energy practice methods make a good point.

 

Since all phenomena ultimatly passes away is it a good idea to focus on energetic events rather than letting it all pass freely through the mind and not held onto?

 

I know the energy arts are entertaining and might work well for healing or power. More interesting to people probably then sitting still and watching your mind but haven't heard anyone really strongly make that point here the way Bodri does on his site.

 

Or do you look at it another way?

 

Cam

[松永道]

From my understanding, Daoist cultivation is divided into two main categories: Xin Gong and Ming Gong.

 

Xin Gong (心功) leads to the enlightenment of the heart/mind/Shen.

 

Ming Gong (命功) leads to longevity, power, etc.

 

So from my perspective it seems Buddhism emphasizes Xin Gong and Daoism emphasizes Ming Gong, however any complete path must include both. Xin Gong will make you a better person (really, see the movie "Doing Time, Doing Vipassana" a documentary on Buddhist meditation really reforming criminals) and ultimately it's the Yin of Xin Gong that will allow you to transcend attachment and reach enlightenment. Ming Gong will make you strong and healthy, but there are plenty of bad-hearted folks out there who have, do, and will continue to use it wrongly.

 

I agree with Bodri, but only in part. Xin Gong is very important but to emphasize only Xin Gong is to fall into the same trap that Chinese Buddhists did before the arrival of Bodhidharma. A weak body, poor Jing, can severely hamper meditation. Bodri is wrong that meditation alone will build the body.

 

Yin, yang, yin, yang, it's a cycle. Very yang soil is the perfect home for a yin seed and vice versa. This is the dual practice of Xin Gong and Ming Gong. Can you climb the stairs of a ten story building without passing through an odd numbered floor? Either practice will plateau without the other. This is why we have yoga, taiji, etc, it's all yang used to develop yin. Ming used to develop Xin.

 

I'll tell ya, I don't see any great accomplishment in "detaching" from something you can't have. I call that giving up. Money, power, the energetic abilities, if you can acquire and then transcend these things, now that's an accomplishment. Doctor's develop their minds for a specific function, athletes develop their bodies for a specific function, Ming Gong and energy practices are no different. The more thoroughly you can participate in life, the more you have to transcend.

 

(Master Nan, by the way, is regarded as a scholar in China but not an enlightened master. He may deliberately downplay this or he may not be the celestial master Bodri claims. Or maybe the monks I talked to just didn't like him very much.)

Edited March 29, 2008 by 松永道

[Cameron]

Hmmm.

 

I am not so sure about Bodhidharma.

 

From some accounts the methods he taught the monks are more like excercise.

 

In any case a person like that has so much legend built around him it's hard to really say. Zen Buddhists say he was a Zen patriarch in direct lineage from Buddha. A Lei Shan Dao/David Shen student mentioned here he was actually one of the highest masters in that lineage etc.

 

Anyway, I am not talking about excercise which of course everybody needs some of but the energy practices such as those I mentioned. Practices based on moving energy in the body, building energy to achieve some goal(tan tien, building more qi, becoming more powerful, becoming immortal etc).

 

I don't really mean health excercises. So let me clarify I mean energy based practices such as those mentioned that seem to have a strong identification with certain types of energy or energy lineages(Healing Tao, Lei Shan Dao, Kunlun, Wudang, Tien Shan, Water Method etc.)

 

BTW if practitioners of any of those don't consider their practice energy based but working more with mind by all means say so. It just seems what people into those practices end up with is strong identification with the energy or results of the practice rather than what Bodri/Nan, Zen teachers and Advaita teachers seem to be speaking about. In other words, a potential sidetrack.

 

I could be wrong. Interested in hearing others views.

 

Cam

[松永道]

 

Anyway, I am not talking about excercise which of course everybody needs some of but the energy practices such as those I mentioned. Practices based on moving energy in the body, building energy to achieve some goal(tan tien, building more qi, becoming more powerful, becoming immortal etc).

 

I don't really meen health excercises. So let me clarify I mean energy based practices such as those mentioned that really seem to have a strong identification with certain types of energy or energy lineages(Healing Tao, Lei Shan Dao, Kunlun, Wudang, Tien Shan, Water Method etc.)

 

BTW if practitioners of any of those don't consider their practice energy based but working more with mind by all means say so. It just seems what people into those practices end up with is strong identification with the energy or results of the practice rather than what Bodri/Nan, Zen teachers and Advaita teachers seem to be speaking about. In other words, a potential sidetrack.

 

 

How does an energy practice not work with mind?

 

The energy body is part of the whole body. I think it's an artificial distinction. To build energy or build muscle, is there really such a difference? I exercise physically to run farther, to move faster, to jump higher, to hit harder. I exercise energetically to live longer, to increase immune function, to expand my senses. Is building strong muscles more natural than building strong meridians? I've read in some hunter gatherer societies seeing auras is completely commonplace. It's the fault of energy-hog minds that we don't. But we can. Is it unnatural to practice that which will return you to a natural state? It's an honest question.

 

Bodri is basically saying don't force it. Good advice. However it depends on the individual. Some people should force it to get started. Hell, meditation itself is a forced practice. I've noticed my forced practice of Taiji has greatly benefited my unforced spontaneous qigong. Life is an interplay of forced and unforced. Doggedly avoid either one and you will stagnate.

 

I understand your question by my answer is paradoxically both. Bodri's right and wrong. Identifying with a lineage can be helpful at one point and harmful the next. How paradoxical is enlightenment? To live to transcend life. There is no inherent conflict between enlightenment and energetic practice, they can mutually benefit or mutually hinder one another. It depends on you.

 

P.S. As the story goes Bodhidharma taught muscle tendon changing, a Ming Gong practice.

Edited March 29, 2008 by 松永道

[Cameron]

Am I right to say your position is like the I Ching, there is a time to lead and there is a time to follow?

 

From that perspective energy practices could be considered leading and empty mind type practice following.

 

Ive got a refinement of what I am asking do you think many(most?) people in beginning stages of practice don't have the wisdom/insight to do the leading part and should focus more on the following?

 

My take on empty mind practice is by letting go you actually allow the inherent wisdom of the body mind to do whatever it needs to do. By leading you use your ego or intention to try to make things happen.

 

But do most people really have the wisdom and insight to correctly make these things happen? Or is the beginner pracitioner who is trying to move energy along certain meridians or do energy practices to open channels deluding themselves?

 

Perhaps someone who has done empty mind practice for years and progresses in that is at a place where they can begin real qigong/nei kung practice and starting them before that point is premature?

 

I remember reading someone say you shouldn't even think about doing nei kung or alchemy formulas etc until you can do empty mind for 4 hrs.

 

Still, your position seems to be there should atleast be an equal balance of both stillness practice with any qigong type of practice. That still seems pretty balanced.

 

So, as the original question asked, does anyone agree with Bodri or more along the lines of my friend who's name I can't pronounce saying to balance both types of practice?

 

Cam

[松永道]

Am I right to say your position is like the I Ching, there is a time to lead and there is a time to follow?

 

Good call. I also think you can't begin real neigong practice until you can empty your mind for at least two hours (usually this turns into three or four hours of sitting because because you have to get in and get out properly), until then stray thoughts consume and scatter qi.

 

Interestingly enough, I've learned a lot about letting go through first using force. For example we can examine this natural phenomenon: flex a muscle very tightly, then let it relax. Now, unless you got a cramp, the muscle is now more relaxed than before you flexed it. If your muscle was very tight to begin with, flexing will produce less net force than if the muscle body were completely relaxed. It is this natural pattern that allows Ming Gong to benefit Xin Gong and Xin Gong to benefit Ming Gong. Practice of changing between the extremes makes each fuller. I Ching, right on.

 

My name is Song Yongdao by the way, I have it on my name tag below there. Nice to meet you.

Edited March 29, 2008 by 松永道

[Cameron]

Nice to meet you too

[hugo]

Vipassana has brought me a lot of peace that I never got from energy cultivation styles, I mix the two now and enjoy the health benefits of qigong but I feel that Vipassana still goes A LOT deeper for me. I've gotten a little bit out of Bodhri's and Nan's books but a little too much filler for my liking and too much time spent denigrating other styles.

[松永道]

Vipassana has brought me a lot of peace that I never got from energy cultivation styles, I mix the two now and enjoy the health benefits of qigong but I feel that Vipassana still goes A LOT deeper for me. I've gotten a little bit out of Bodhri's and Nan's books but a little too much filler for my liking and too much time spent denigrating other styles.

 

Hey Hugo, I've found the same from Vipassana. In truth it's really become my root for my daily life. I find the equanimous Vipassana mind can even greatly enhance "leading" practices like taijiquan, neigong, and other qigong exercises. I couldn't say at this point that any single practice has affected me so profoundly.

 

Did you learn from S.N. Goenka's free retreats? I would heartily recommend them to any Tao Bum. Xin Gong at its finest.

[satyagraha]

very enlightening thread, thank you guys for posting

[Cameron]

Vipassana has brought me a lot of peace that I never got from energy cultivation styles, I mix the two now and enjoy the health benefits of qigong but I feel that Vipassana still goes A LOT deeper for me. I've gotten a little bit out of Bodhri's and Nan's books but a little too much filler for my liking and too much time spent denigrating other styles.

 

 

I don't necissarily mean follow what he says to a T per se but more agree with what he says about the inferiority of energy practices to empty mind.

 

From what I understand vipassana is a very serious empty mind path. One of our posters here, smile, I think did a retreat and mentioned it was like all day sitting for 10 days.

 

I am just intent on sitting once or twice a day but really integrating it into my life long term and making it something that is balanced into my life. Maybe do a week long retreat in the future.

 

At this point my guess is at very least you should have a firm foundation in empty mind before starting energy practices. My guess is the majority of people here either include some quiet, non conceptual sitting into their qigong routines or are far into the energy practices already and developing wrong views about cultivation. At very least I would think a strong empty mind component should be included and it seems most people agree with that.

[hugo]

Hey Hugo, I've found the same from Vipassana. In truth it's really become my root for my daily life. I find the equanimous Vipassana mind can even greatly enhance "leading" practices like taijiquan, neigong, and other qigong exercises. I couldn't say at this point that any single practice has affected me so profoundly.

 

Did you learn from S.N. Goenka's free retreats? I would heartily recommend them to any Tao Bum. Xin Gong at its finest.

 

I started with Goenka too and I'd highly recommend it. I've done Vipassana retreats in other styles and places but the Goenka ones have got a structure that works best for me. The noble silence is really beneficial too. I think you would almost get the same retreat no matter what country you were in. The first retreat I did I remember being very humbled at the end of the 10 days realizing that I had only scratched the surface of myself, but it gave me something solid to work with for my home practice and after the retreats, 2 hours of meditation a day felt like nothing.

 

I've also found Vipassana to be an excellent complement to the neigong that I practice which is similar to the dissolving method that B.K. Frantzis teaches and if a part doesn't dissolve, well "anicca" right? lol.

 

During the retreats I found that I had a lot of visions, "lights," sounds and a lot of my energy centers seemed to be stimulated. The stock standard response from teachers is to "be equanimous, no attachment, observe without reaction."

 

I also noticed that any colds I had would clear up very quickly, even for me. Vipassana is really good at letting go of stuff. In a way that's all it really is. My friend had ezcema all her life and it left and never came back after her retreat. Another friend had her warts go away. I met a guy who decided to go cold turkey from heroin by coming to a retreat.

 

It's funny because the aim of Vipassana as they keep saying is to "accept reality as it is, not as you want it to be" but I was thinking that perhaps similar to what Louise Hayes says when the body is "listened" to the issues resolve themselves and release. Funny because now that I think of it, Vipassana has "healed" far more of my issues than energy work, qigong or Reiki ever has.

 

So my own feeling is that there is a lot of energetic balancing that is automatically going on in Vipassana. It's just that getting consciously involved or attached to the balancing (in Vipassana) ends up being counter productive.

[Cameron]

Hi hugo that is great and one of the points I wanted to discuss exactly.

 

That doing empty mind/vipassana/zen etc where you basically "get out of the way" may be far better than methods where you supposedly lead the energy with your ego or your intention.

 

I think it goes back to what we talked about earlier in the thread maybe if you have a very strong foundation in stillness you develop the wisdom to help the energy along but if the energy knows exactly what to do when you get out of the way where is this person that helps things along?

 

It just striked me as a fundamental difference of philosophy about what cultivation is. One seems to be about lessining the ego to where nature is allowed to do what is natural for it to do. The other about manipulating and controlling energy flows in the body.

 

Perhaps, at very least, people should develop wisdom from stillness meditation first before thinking they can manipulate energy flows as a practice.

 

Maybe someone from the other side and strong believer in energy practices being ok before a strong empty mind foundation can say something here.

[de_paradise]

Since I can feel in my head all the cleaning mechanisms (which at the moment is like a wire grid net over my face, and a vortex hole being widened from top of my head downwards) Ive made some observations about what accelerates the process:

 

Exercise (like qigong moments), sexual stimulation, food--all have the effect of stregthening the qiflow. Its like turning a small river into a larger stronger river.

 

Emptiness--has increasing usefulness according to the refinement of emptiness. It doesnt increase the power of qiflow but relaxes everything surrounding it like loosening a knit sweater. It must have the effect of loosening the tightness of the moleculer level (and beyond) body and therefore the qi (or whatever it is) can sweep through, unblocking and finding the impure bits and removing them. The deeper the emptiness state, the looser everything gets. ie. when you melt yourself into the room or into sound etc. (I havent gotten much deeper than that) and kundalini qi becomes a ginsu knife through a tomato.

 

So using my personal evidence I conclude that Nan is wrong on the surface because energetic works have a definite palpable effect; however deeper and deeper emptiness states is the direction I must go because thats the method that can be continually refined and improved to acheive still more efficacious results. Emptiness is the major leagues and beyond.

Edited March 29, 2008 by de_paradise

[Cameron]

It should be added that Bodri/Nan are strong advocates of celibacy and I think a good part of "what get's things going" in their view is combining empty mind with celibacy/retention.

 

In other words it's the retention of jing combined with empty mind that opens up the channels naturally and without force of mind(as seems to be done with some qigong).

 

 

Other teachers that teach this as the main practice but not much emphasis on retention and things like that seem to be saying it's your tension/mind/control/not allowing things to flow etc that causes stagnation in the first place so practicing is like letting go of a tightly held hose where the water is built up already or something.

 

Some energy practice based stuff seems to be saying there isn't enough water to begin with and that water needs to be guided through the channels with the mind and it doesn't know where to go on it's own.

 

I think that might be the fundamental difference. That the energy in your body doesn't know exactly where to go when you let go enough to let it vs. your ego somehow deciding what's the best place to guide energy or focus it.

 

Probably the truth lies somewhere in the middle of course.

[林愛偉]

Bodhidharma brought the Proper Chan lineage to China. Before him, in China there were several great

masters who came from India as well. They brought the Buddhadharma with them. This was in 67ad.

 

There were skilled Buddhist cultivators before Bodhidharma. Its just that some became quite attached to status, as did Daoists, and some just cultivated mind and not body. Nothing wrong with that if its what your Karma leads to.

 

 

Peace,

Lin

[Guest sykkelpump]

From personal experience with a lot of qi gong types,and with meditation I know bodri is right.The only qi gong type I benefit from was active exersises level one of spring forest qi gong. It helped to speed up the opening of the micro cosmic orbit.But then again it was already starting to open from meditation.When I read on the net about people with great experience it is almost always come from meditators with some kind of empty mind practice.I have cured myself from liver trouble,astma and nervous system problem in the spine.So I know I have done something right

[Guest sykkelpump]

Since I can feel in my head all the cleaning mechanisms (which at the moment is like a wire grid net over my face, and a vortex hole being widened from top of my head downwards) Ive made some observations about what accelerates the process:

 

Exercise (like qigong moments), sexual stimulation, food--all have the effect of stregthening the qiflow. Its like turning a small river into a larger stronger river.

 

Emptiness--has increasing usefulness according to the refinement of emptiness. It doesnt increase the power of qiflow but relaxes everything surrounding it like loosening a knit sweater. It must have the effect of loosening the tightness of the moleculer level (and beyond) body and therefore the qi (or whatever it is) can sweep through, unblocking and finding the impure bits and removing them. The deeper the emptiness state, the looser everything gets. ie. when you melt yourself into the room or into sound etc. (I havent gotten much deeper than that) and kundalini qi becomes a ginsu knife through a tomato.

 

So using my personal evidence I conclude that Nan is wrong on the surface because energetic works have a definite palpable effect; however deeper and deeper emptiness states is the direction I must go because thats the method that can be continually refined and improved to acheive still more efficacious results. Emptiness is the major leagues and beyond.

 

 

You are wrong,emtiness for sure does increase the power of the chi flow.I dont know what you practice,but when I meditate my body starst to fill with qi from the feet to the head and the breathing connects with the nervous system in the spine and energy starts to move even more in a good way.I am just watching my breath with one point concentration as a tool to stop the mind.for me it is the best way because you dont need to create a mantra or using energy on wisualize something and then focus on it.you just focus on the breath which is there already.

[de_paradise]

Yeah, you are right. I expressed myself wrong because I was paying too much attention to the loosening effect, which is why emptiness meditation seems to be superior,as per the original topic; emptiness does increase qi flow. Its less strong of an increase than I get often from a yoga/chi gong exercise,; sexual stimulation without ejaculating--where the chi (or whatever it is) palaply changes in consistancy/texture to a thicker mixture that is also more forceful. The emptiness kind of increased flow in my feeling is like a speeding up wind when I close my eyes and shut my mind...but then a good stillness can slow it right down.

 

Anyway this is just self-observations and may have no relevence to you.

 

 

 

You are wrong,emtiness for sure does increase the power of the chi flow.I dont know what you practice,but when I meditate my body starst to fill with qi from the feet to the head and the breathing connects with the nervous system in the spine and energy starts to move even more in a good way.I am just watching my breath with one point concentration as a tool to stop the mind.for me it is the best way because you dont need to create a mantra or using energy on wisualize something and then focus on it.you just focus on the breath which is there already.

Edited March 29, 2008 by de_paradise

[Taiji Bum]

I love his work but... DO NOT JOIN HIS SITE!!!!!!!!! He'll sell your email and you will get innudated with spam!

[Yoda]

Bodri has lots of energy cultivation practices going on: retention, white skeleton meditation visualization practice, 9 bottle breathing, stretching, merit cultivation, supplements, etc...

 

He just recommends a healthy balance and not to engage in forceful energy practices... sage advice. Bodri's energy practices are too forceful for me, though.

[Cameron]

Ok, at this point it seems where this is leading is there is a time to lead/guide and a time to follow/watch your mind.

 

That's what Ken Cohen says. Emptiness practice should be the foundation but energy practices can be good too so that works.

[松永道]

In Bodri's Best and Worst Spiritual Practices he quotes this "ancient saying":

 

"Merely to cultivate your physical body in order to prolong life, but not to practice to realize your self-nature, is the first cultivation mistake. But to practice to only realize the self-nature, while neglecting to support the alchemical transformations within the human body, will result in you cultivating for aeons without becoming enlightened."

 

Sounds like he understands the importance of both Xin Gong and Ming Gong but simply advocates focusing on spiritual results rather than physical ones. However, he also states that highly cultivated individuals, who have developed their qi and ability to concentrate, can become enlightened very quickly when exposed to proper teaching.

 

So after all he's also in the dual cultivation camp.

[.broken.]

So after all he's also in the dual cultivation camp.

 

Yep. I believe his main method of develop the body is through diet: usually fasting and reducing the microbiological load on the body.

 

I disagree with Darin Hamel though, I've been a member of his site for ages and I get no spam other than Bodri trying to sell me the odd ebook.

[KoHsuan]

Hi Cameron,

 

The more I practice the more I start believing Bodri/Nan approach .. Also you must agree that you can't make much money from saying people "sit and empty your mind"

but with all neigong/chigong/yoga/martial etc stuff one would be able to milk followers forever... and we all know that Chinese really enjoy it and Bodri keep warning us..

 

 

 

Even Don Juan admitted that behind complicated structure of toltec system was one simple thing:

 

"When a warrior learns to stop the internal dialogue, everything becomes possible..."