desire in Taoism

[Maddie]

So in Buddhism desire is seen as the cause of suffering and something to be let go of. Is this the case in Taoism as well? If not what is the attitude about desire in Taoism, and the view of "liberation" if there is such a view?

[daojones]

The painting "the vinegar tasting" has the answer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinegar_tasters

[Maddie]

56 minutes ago, daojones said:

The painting "the vinegar tasting" has the answer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinegar_tasters

 

Yeah I've seen that before, but at other times I hear of Taoist meditation masters saying to rid one's self of desire, so it gets a bit confusing. Also love your screen name, very creative.

[Mithras]

I'm not really sure but I get the vibe that Taoism is more of a transformation rather than a removal of the ego sense. Could be completely wrong though.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Mithras

[Maddie]

7 minutes ago, Mithras said:

I'm not really sure but I get the vibe that Taoism is more of a transformation rather than a removal of the ego sense. Could be completely wrong though.

 

To be honest I'm not really sure what the end goal of Taoism is.

[dwai]

What I’ve been taught is that daoist goal is to reconnect with the Dao. We have within us a complete copy of the Dao. It is called our De. Daoists work on their body-mind, clearing layers of junk until they can access the de (which is buried under layers of acquired habits and mind).
 

Once we reconnect with our De, it will let us “return to Dao”. 
 

Wrt the daoist treatment of desire — desire rises from the acquired mind, so is artificial. Real is Dao. So desire is released as part of the cleansing of the mind. 

I would recommend checking out these videos by Master Liao — https://www.taichitao.tv/programs/interview-tao-and-the-struggle-of-life?categoryId=44275

 

He will tell you like it is, without flowery words and elaborate jargon. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by dwai

[Mig]

17 hours ago, dwai said:

What I’ve been taught is that daoist goal is to reconnect with the Dao. We have within us a complete copy of the Dao. It is called our De. Daoists work on their body-mind, clearing layers of junk until they can access the de (which is buried under layers of acquired habits and mind).
 

Once we reconnect with our De, it will let us “return to Dao”. 
 

Wrt the daoist treatment of desire — desire rises from the acquired mind, so is artificial. Real is Dao. So desire is released as part of the cleansing of the mind. 

I would recommend checking out these videos by Master Liao — https://www.taichitao.tv/programs/interview-tao-and-the-struggle-of-life?categoryId=44275

 

He will tell you like it is, without flowery words and elaborate jargon

Why should I pay for an interview? Is this master more interested in getting paid to talk? Maybe he can get a job and answer for free???

[dwai]

9 minutes ago, Mig said:

Why should I pay for an interview? Is this master more interested in getting paid to talk? Maybe he can get a job and answer for free???

 

 

If you don't want to pay, sign up for his free Sunday lessons here -- https://mailchi.mp/d6094bf1f7b0/taichitao

 

These are usually free live sessions which they sell later for $5 USD. They have to run their operations during the pandemic too. 

[Maddie]

11 minutes ago, Mig said:

Why should I pay for an interview? Is this master more interested in getting paid to talk? Maybe he can get a job and answer for free???

 

One could also ask, why should he not get paid?

[Mig]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

 

 

If you don't want to pay, sign up for his free Sunday lessons here -- https://mailchi.mp/d6094bf1f7b0/taichitao

 

These are usually free live sessions which they sell later for $5 USD. They have to run their operations during the pandemic too. 

If this is his income generator then that's fine. It seems odd that all is about money. I was affected by the pandemic and found a way to bring income and still can help others if it's intellectual knowledge 

[Mig]

1 hour ago, dmattwads said:

 

One could also ask, why should he not get paid?

Why not, many who have been affected by the pandemic and we found ways. If you're running a business you should have had a back up plan. Big corporation have the luxury to charge because they can if you try to charge to unveil secrets I doubt they're going to make it. Good for those who can afford and good luck 

[daojones]

Everything is commodified and value-able at this stage of human development so seems like par for the course.

I could say more, but thats not the point of the thread.


 

[dwai]

57 minutes ago, Mig said:

If this is his income generator then that's fine. It seems odd that all is about money. I was affected by the pandemic and found a way to bring income and still can help others if it's intellectual knowledge 

Yes he has been teaching since the 1970s. Professionally. That means his students pay fees. 

[freeform]

On 01/12/2020 at 10:10 PM, Mig said:

Why should I pay for an interview? Is this master more interested in getting paid to talk? Maybe he can get a job and answer for free???

 

I find this sort of thing incredibly arrogant.

 

 

[Luxin]

On 12/1/2020 at 12:35 PM, dwai said:

We have within us a complete copy of the Dao. It is called our De. Daoists work on their body-mind, clearing layers of junk until they can access the de (which is buried under layers of acquired habits and mind)

Thank you, dwai. This rings a bell.

[Mig]

9 hours ago, freeform said:

 

I find this sort of thing incredibly arrogant.

 

 

I could find arrogant to ask for money whereas most of the places on the web one can get e-books, online publications, interviews, videos for free. What I am noticing is that for sometime the internet has become a money making machine, not only enticing you to buy, call for action and lately pushing you to buy or get your cookies to distribute your information and how you are browsing. Most of the people don't care and consumerism is rampant today even online. This is the reason why I reacted. I understand if there is a specific method of work or guidance to learn with a serious curriculum then I understand the reason for charging money.

[exorcist_1699]

The issue of desire is crucial in Taoist Neidan , in fact, without desires, Tao cannot embody itself  and  be expressed in humans  . It is via desires , especially the sex desire , that Tao  shows itself to us  .  Yet  because those desires are so strong , and Tao's trace so light that Tao's making use of human desires  for its own purpose  hardly be noticed * .

Sublimate  those desires,  the desire to see colorful things , the desire to listen to wonderful music, the desire to have sex with a pretty lady..etc  as some kind of medicine for nourishing our life , and make it  eternal is  a process  called   " Xing's grasping and consolidating desires "  ("以性攝情" )  . Without having such a process done , any Taoist achievement  , in the end, is  futile.

 

* A famous Taoist saying :  "人情濃厚道情微, 道用人情世罕知" 
 

Edited December 8, 2020 by exorcist_1699

[damdao]

@exorcist_1699 could you elaborate a little more about the process of sublimation? It is done in silent sitting, zuo wang? or some other kind of no mind exerciese?

[exorcist_1699]

On 12/6/2020 at 11:57 PM, damdao said:

@exorcist_1699 could you elaborate a little more about the process of sublimation? It is done in silent sitting, zuo wang? or some other kind of no mind exerciese?

 

Thanks your response .

 

I think desires are always  viewed as something negative .  In most religious cultivation , they are things to be suppressed or got rid of  . However in Taoist cultivation , desires  are viewed as varied expressions of jing  that life  based on , unlikely be  destructive  . To sublimate desires , the key is  a mindless Mind  that people need to do it  well  and there are two pre-conditions :

 

1)  They get jing  accumulated in their body in relatively abundant condition ,  otherwise they  likely can't get that kind of spiritual magnificence and delicacy . 

 

2) They know Zen's unique way of attaining a mindless Mind well , which  can be summarized by one word : " Detachment "  ("離") for   " simply detached   from all physical and spiritual  states/ forms, you get  all those named Buddhas "  (" 離一切諸相, 則名諸佛")

Compared to Zen's  thorough  way of " Detachment " , we  get Taoist  gradual way  which can also be summarized in  one word : " Reversion " ("逆") . As  desires always result in  something going  downward , outside and dissipated from our body, what people  have to do is to  reverse it , making it go upwards,  inside and consolidated . 

 

Edited December 9, 2020 by exorcist_1699

[freeform]

7 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

consolidated

 

This is key.

 

It's not really about the 'amount' of jing... it's more about the quality of it... Is it all over the place (dispersed)? Is it fueling all sorts of innate desires (leaking)?

 

Or is it calm, still, consolidated (rather than dispersed)?

[exorcist_1699]

On 2020/12/9 at 9:01 PM, freeform said:

 

This is key.

 

It's not really about the 'amount' of jing... it's more about the quality of it... Is it all over the place (dispersed)? Is it fueling all sorts of innate desires (leaking)?

 

Or is it calm, still, consolidated (rather than dispersed)?

 

 

If jing  consolidated at our own will , no long scattered around  different parts of our body , then of course our mind will also  be consolidated as  a  vivid clear Mind , no longer fluctuating   yet  powered with those desires to live ,to  search meanings , to love  .  This  is of course  a Mind  with special abilities  ;  this is also the Taoist way .   

 

On the other hand ,   hardly  does Zen talk about jing or qi ,   it  seems it just follows   its unique  way to attain that mindless Mind ,  too strange for modern people to grasp . 

 

In fact  I always  think that Zen can   only  be understood in  the Chinese language , neither  Japanese nor  Korean,  hardly be  in  English  for these  are  all "tedious " languages ;  even Modern Chinese is  impossible  , but  only in  Classical Chinese ,  a language so simple , straight and self-contained ; a  language that Zen 's words are recorded .   I had  such a thought long time ago , but  I found  it difficult to express , maybe in my sub-conscious mind , I was afraid of being accused of sounding arrogant ;  or ,  maybe such a thought seemed too strange even to myself   .. . It was after watching the movie  Arrival  that  my  mind  changed .  An alien culture , free of the limitations of  the past , the present and the future , their people's   minds travel  freely  across the  huge span of time of this universe  , does need to create a  unique language ,  composed of a series circular ,intangible symbols , to express it , to pass to others .

 

Or,  maybe their minds  originally had not  been  that   free , it was  after having  got such a unique language from somewhere  , then their mind started  to becoming  free  ? 

Edited December 15, 2020 by exorcist_1699

[Maddie]

47 minutes ago, exorcist_1699 said:

 

 

If jing  consolidated, no long scattered around  different parts of our body , then of course our mind will also  be consolidated as  a  vivid clear Mind , no longer fluctuating as what  we know  , yet  powered with those desires to live ,to  search meanings , to love  .  This  is of course  a Mind  with special abilities  ;  this is also the Taoist way .   

 

On the other hand ,   never does  Zen talk about jing or qi ,   it  seems it just follows   its unique  way to attain that mindless Mind ...; 

 

Sometimes I think that Zen can   only  be understood in Chinese , not Japanese nor  Korean,  hardly be in  English , these  are "tedious " languages ;  even Modern Chinese is  impossible  , but in  the Classical Chinese , which is the only language that Zen 's words are recorded .   I had  such a thought long time ago , but  I found  it difficult to express , maybe in my unconscious mind , I was afraid of being accused of being  arrogant ;  or ,  maybe such a thought seems even too strange to myself   .. . It was after watching the movie  "Arrival "  that  my  mind  changed .  An alien culture , free of the limitations of  the past , the present and the future , their people's   minds travel  freely  across the  huge span of time of this universe  , does need to create a  unique language ,  composed of a series circular ,intangible symbols , to express it , to pass to others .

 

Or,  maybe their minds  originally had not  been  that   free , it was  after having  attained  such a unique language from somewhere  , then their mind started  to becoming  free  ? 

 

I think Taoism explains what's going on under the hood, and Zen tells you how to start the engine.

[freeform]

On 11/12/2020 at 3:09 AM, exorcist_1699 said:

On the other hand ,   hardly  does Zen talk about jing or qi

 

In Chan Buddhist traditions (Zen's Chinese aunty) - many do talk about jing qi shen - because I guess there was more mixing between the different paths.

[XianGong]

On 12/2/2020 at 1:10 AM, Mig said:

Why should I pay for an interview? Is this master more interested in getting paid to talk? Maybe he can get a job and answer for free???

 

Talking is work.

Hosting information on internet costs money.

Recording information costs money and time.

Hosting a website on the internet with domain costs money.

Developing a website for you to see on the internet - costs money.

 

Why don't you just go and work for free, if you are so smart and dedicated?

[exorcist_1699]

On 12/12/2020 at 7:52 PM, freeform said:

 

In Chan Buddhist traditions (Zen's Chinese aunty) - many do talk about jing qi shen - because I guess there was more mixing between the different paths.

 

No,  Zen/Chan does not  need jing , qi , shen nor talks about them , in fact , they are all criticized as  attachment .  And, any  attachment , no matter it is to  our  abdomen , to those feelings of heat and  light  or   to  some spiritual achievement  , can only prevent us  from further proceeding in  our cultivation .

Edited December 15, 2020 by exorcist_1699