desire in Taoism

[Mig]

18 hours ago, XianGong said:

 

Talking is work.

Hosting information on internet costs money.

Recording information costs money and time.

Hosting a website on the internet with domain costs money.

Developing a website for you to see on the internet - costs money.

 

Why don't you just go and work for free, if you are so smart and dedicated?

 

And there's cheap talk and good talks in the internet for free and many that don't push the sale. They know how to make money instead pushing for you to buy. Look at podcasts how they work and their business model. I don't work for free and if I can share something for free I will do it, just like many scholars offer free content or publishing companies. 

[Cleansox]

And yet, scholars tend to have an income, or are prowling for patronage. 

And I watched a podcast from Damo Mitchell, and lo, to see the entire one, there was payment involved. 

Thus, in some cases, the freebies are commercials. 

[XianGong]

4 hours ago, Mig said:

And there's cheap talk and good talks in the internet for free and many that don't push the sale. They know how to make money instead pushing for you to buy. Look at podcasts how they work and their business model. I don't work for free and if I can share something for free I will do it, just like many scholars offer free content or publishing companies. 

 

Just don't buy it if you don't like it, it is a free market, you can't blame someone for charging money for their work.

Usually, people who do talks have free talks and paid lectures.

[ilumairen]

Waysun Liao would have a wealth of information pertinent to the topic of this thread, and dwai was kind enough to find a specific video directly related to the topic.

 

That there appears to be a desire for free information (and by default a devaluing of the decades this master has put into study, practice, and teaching) does not change these two simple (on topic) facts, and I would at this point, after receiving member reports regarding the derailment of this thread, suggest if one wishes to engage in a discussion regarding masters being paid or consumerism in general that they start another topic where this side tangent would be more germane.

 

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by ilumairen

[freeform]

13 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

 

No,  Zen/Chan does not  need jing , qi , shen ,  or talk about them , in fact , they are criticized as  attachment .  And, any  attachment , no matter it is to  our  abdomen , to  a spiritual achievement  , can prevent us  from proceeding in  our practice . 

 

Very much depends on the individual schools. I've come across several that certainly make use of jing/qi/shen.

 

Non-attachment is indeed important... But one can get just as easily attached to the idea of non-attachment as to anything. The skill is not in removing things one can get attached to (otherwise suicide would be the ideal solution) - the skill is in developing equanimity so you can come and go as you please, without getting attached.

[dwai]

10 hours ago, Cleansox said:

And yet, scholars tend to have an income, or are prowling for patronage. 

And I watched a podcast from Damo Mitchell, and lo, to see the entire one, there was payment involved. 

Thus, in some cases, the freebies are commercials. 

Why should they not charge for their knowledge. Whether one opts to choose one teacher or another is a matter of personal choice/temperament etc. By that token, teachers and professors should not take salaries to teach. 

 

In the current context specifically, knowledge is the primary currency, especially specialized knowledge. So, someone who has specialized knowledge should be able to make a living off that which has taken them many years of work to acquire and refine. 

[dwai]

39 minutes ago, freeform said:

the skill is in developing equanimity so you can come and go as you please, without getting attached

This warrants a highlight and a "well said"!  

[thelerner]

Which desire screws us up the worst?

 

Is it lust?  Which has its healthy side.  Finding a mate.

Or power?  Again, has its good points. 

 

I'll vote desire for 'comfort/against working hard'. 

Personally, I think that's hurt me more then desiring lust or power.

 

 

 

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, thelerner said:

Which desire screws us up the worst?

 

Is it lust?  Which has its healthy side.  Finding a mate.

Or power?  Again, has its good points. 

 

I'll vote desire for 'comfort/against working hard'. 

Personally, I think that's hurt me more then desiring lust or power.

 

 

 

 

I'd say the desire that interferes with our life the most is the desire that affects us most.

[Sketch]

11 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Which desire screws us up the worst?

 

For me it will have been the desire to see life as fair.

[Maddie]

Ultimately from what I understand the Buddha said that in the mind there is ignorance and this gives rise to desire, and this desire due to conditioning seeks an object to latch onto. The object is really irrelevant, its the desire in and of itself that seeks and searches. When we loose interest in one thing we don't just sit there and stare at the ground and drool, we replace the old interest with a new one.

 

It's always just desire, the particular thing desired doesn't really have that much intrinsic meaning.

[thelerner]

8 minutes ago, Sketch said:

For me it will have been the desire to see life as fair.

with 3 kids a year apart, I heard 'that's not fair'.. quite a bit.  Thus (as a bad dad) I learned to reply 'Fair is for bears..'  Generally, they hated that statement but over the years have come to accept it.  And now when they're complaining, I'll give'em a look, and they'll say 'yeah yeah fair is for bears'. 

 

On the other hand, when I complain, I get 'Suck it up Dad!'.

 

sometime you get the bear.. sometimes the bear gets you.

[Maddie]

21 minutes ago, Sketch said:

For me it will have been the desire to see life as fair.

 

I think life is either not at all fair and random .... OR....

 

Too fair if you factor in past lives and karma.

[Sketch]

4 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

 

Too fair if you factor in past lives and karma.

But I don't,  not when I'm desiring stuff.

[Maddie]

Just now, Sketch said:

But I don't,  not when I'm desiring stuff.

 

Explain?

[Sketch]

When I'm concerned with the "unfairness" of it all, or how much I want that next slice, I'm not considering anything but the narrowest view.

[Maddie]

Just now, Sketch said:

When I'm concerned with the "unfairness" of it all, or how much I want that next slice, I'm not considering anything but the narrowest view.

 

Ah yes, so it sounds like you are experiencing the dukkah of desire.

[Sketch]

4 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

Ah yes, so it sounds like you are experiencing the dukkah of desire.

Sounds delicious

[Sketch]

Serve it with my favorite heretical sounding dish, Imam Biyaldi. Sacrilicious!

 

(Means " the priest fainted" in Turkish.. So good!)

Edited December 14, 2020 by Sketch

[freeform]

4 hours ago, dwai said:

Why should they not charge for their knowledge.

I personally think it’s an actual privilege to be able to help my teacher in some way. My main teacher refuses payment - so I have to get creative in finding ways to benefit him and his family. 

 

Why should someone who dedicated their entire life to doing something incredibly difficult and helping thousands of people - end up starving, unable to keep a roof over their heads because someone thinks information should be free? An absolutely ridiculous, parasitic attitude.
 

Worst part is people will use all kinds of semi political justifications for their views - when in reality it’s just simple self-interest and entitlement (I want stuff, I deserve it and I don’t want to pay for it).

[freeform]

2 hours ago, thelerner said:

Which desire screws us up the worst?

I think desires are an absolutely necessary thing for us as human animals... the desires are a major aspect of survival.

 

But when we want access to our spiritual selves, we must drop our animal desires like a butterfly drops it’s chrysalis shell. We don’t drop it coz it’s bad - but because it stops us becoming a butterfly.

 

I think a balanced level of the basic desires is healthy and necessary for non cultivators.

[mrpasserby]

  

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Edited December 15, 2020 by mrpasserby

[thelerner]

22 hours ago, dmattwads said:

 

.. at all fair and random .... OR....

 

Too fair if you factor in past lives and karma.

That's why, once I perfect my time machine.  I'm going back and killing my 3rd to last self.  Before I shoot I'll say 'That's for all the pain and misery you've caused me, ya bastard'. 

[TranquilTurmoil]

I think there is no one size fits all answer to this question. At my old Zen center whenever I brought up desire as something to be relinquished or eliminated I got bewilderment or a "hold it lightly" type response. I think the "hold it lightly"/middle way approach is fine and appropriate if you are sincerely devoted and are willing to sacrifice for the path of practice. But it is easy to be lax in this method and indulge yourself if you aren't clear in setting proper limitations/precepts for your practice.

 

I did the extreme of trying to let go of ALL desires and while I found my misguided efforts ultimately beneficial it is a dangerous rabbit hole to go down.

 

So I think we cannot eradicate desire unless we become arhats, immortals, Buddha's if we even can at all. In the face of that knowledge we have to be discerning in which desires are detrimental by their very nature and which desires simply should not be clung too.

That's where I stand at the moment, but like I was saying in the beginning it also depends on how deep your aspiration is and how much you are willing to give for the path

[Maddie]

On 12/17/2020 at 8:31 PM, TranquilTurmoil said:

I think there is no one size fits all answer to this question. At my old Zen center whenever I brought up desire as something to be relinquished or eliminated I got bewilderment or a "hold it lightly" type response. I think the "hold it lightly"/middle way approach is fine and appropriate if you are sincerely devoted and are willing to sacrifice for the path of practice. But it is easy to be lax in this method and indulge yourself if you aren't clear in setting proper limitations/precepts for your practice.

 

I did the extreme of trying to let go of ALL desires and while I found my misguided efforts ultimately beneficial it is a dangerous rabbit hole to go down.

 

So I think we cannot eradicate desire unless we become arhats, immortals, Buddha's if we even can at all. In the face of that knowledge we have to be discerning in which desires are detrimental by their very nature and which desires simply should not be clung too.

That's where I stand at the moment, but like I was saying in the beginning it also depends on how deep your aspiration is and how much you are willing to give for the path

 

It's not the thing that is the problem, its wanting the thing that is.