desire in Taoism

[Mig]

On 11/30/2020 at 4:00 PM, daojones said:

The painting "the vinegar tasting" has the answer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinegar_tasters

 

[Mig]

On 12/14/2020 at 1:28 PM, freeform said:

I personally think it’s an actual privilege to be able to help my teacher in some way. My main teacher refuses payment - so I have to get creative in finding ways to benefit him and his family. 

Isn't that a culture attitude refusing a payment? It is your desire to help me, isn't it? It should be a mutual thing as all humans do in one way or another.

On 12/14/2020 at 1:28 PM, freeform said:

 

Why should someone who dedicated their entire life to doing something incredibly difficult and helping thousands of people - end up starving, unable to keep a roof over their heads because someone thinks information should be free? An absolutely ridiculous, parasitic attitude

Worst part is people will use all kinds of semi political justifications for their views - when in reality it’s just simple self-interest and entitlement (I want stuff, I deserve it and I don’t want to pay for it).

If dedicated their entirely life doing what they wanted, wasn't their choice? Why should someone starve? especially in this time of waste and more choices to get food in industrialized countries. Why should someone pay when most of the masters I have seen, have a job and had secure a job and share their extensive knowledge. In the beginning of the internet, most of everything was free and little by little it monetized their investment and today is all about paying and if not, they will get your information, not only they make you accept their terms they will oblige to push that button to follow you. Is it my desire?

 

[Cleansox]

28 minutes ago, Mig said:

 In the beginning of the internet, most of everything was free 

But was it good? 

Would you prefer to find some old cached material rather than what is available online now? Or, use that old material rather than finding a teacher today? 

 

If so, there are many really cheap old used books covering this area, why not just use that instead of insisting that teaching should be cheap or free? 

[Mig]

7 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

But was it good? 

Would you prefer to find some old cached material rather than what is available online now? Or, use that old material rather than finding a teacher today? 

 

If so, there are many really cheap old used books covering this area, why not just use that instead of insisting that teaching should be cheap or free? 

My desire is that as long as there is no push for the sake of making money then is all fine. YouTube implemented the technology to have larger files and watch long documentaries. In the beginning all was free and little by little they started adding ads and now they are pushing you to subscribe. If it all about money then I don't need to buy, knowledge is not only in the books, it is on your own experience. I guess Buddhists and Daoists say the same thing about knowledge.

[freeform]

 

2 hours ago, Mig said:

Why should someone pay

If you don’t want to pay - then don’t pay. 
 

Take things that are freely given. Particularly if you are exceptionally poor (unable to feed, clothe or house yourself). Charity was designed for exactly such situations.

 

But insisting that someone who charges for their teachings that they shouldn’t be charging - that’s essentially being a parasite - and feeding off that person.

 

If you force someone to give you what they have - that’s called exploitation.
 

Take it from them without asking and that’s called stealing.

 

Nothing is ‘free’... Either the exchange is fair or it’s parasitic.

 

Like a colonial power pillaging a native population for all the value they can extract.

 

Or a mining company destroying an ancient forest because there’s a bit of molybdenum in the subsoil and it’s just there ‘free’ for you to take.

 

If you want to be a parasite then go ahead - you’ll be in good company.

 

But don’t fool yourself with justifications and ignorance.

 

The most insidious thing is when people justify parasitic behaviour as some sort of social justice thing. You talk about equality and all that stuff - but then your self entitlement gets the better of you - surely you deserve to get the things you want but not pay for them.
 

If you only take and don’t give, you’re a parasite. Simple as that.
 

And that’s fine... there are many parasites in nature.

 

Just don’t pretend it’s for some higher cause. That’s just bullshiting yourself. Be a parasite and be proud  
 

Years ago I used to download pirated movies - I didn’t care. I justified it by thinking Hollywood makes too much money as it is...

 

But that’s bullshit. There are thousands of people employed to create movies. And most of the movies I prefer aren’t the big Hollywood blockbusters.

 

Eventually I grew up and faced the truth of my actions - I was being a parasite. I was stealing.
 

I don’t need to watch all these movies - these days I rarely watch them... but if I do, then I contribute.

 

Now I prefer to give more than I take - or at least do my best in that endeavour.
 

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by freeform

[XianGong]

Most teachers who do teach in public, make their teachings affordable. So money is never really a big issue as I think.

Some things may well be worth millions, billions and maybe even trillions of dollars, but nobody would charge this much in public because nobody would be able to afford it anyway. 

 

Being a teacher of spiritual and esoteric stuff is not the most profitable thing, although Damo and few others do make like 20000$ in 2 days of teaching. But it is more like an exception in the field and a result of doing it for 2 decades.

 

Anyway how much would you pay for immortality?

 

6 hours ago, freeform said:

Years ago I used to download pirated movies - I didn’t care. I justified it by thinking Hollywood makes too much money as it is...

 

But that’s bullshit. There are thousands of people employed to create movies. And most of the movies I prefer aren’t the big Hollywood blockbusters.

 

Not everything that is a "product" is a result of fair work and employment. Much of it is a scam, corruption, theft of resources.

Many computer games and developers lie and deceive fanbase, to get more money while not delivering a good quality product. 

IF someone is paying for everything is just opening yourself as a victim to parasites, a victim to unethical practices, and scammers, as well as talentless people doing a crap job. I agree though, that if you enjoy, or benefit from something good, supporting it with money is the same as voting. You vote for the good stuff to appear more often in this world. But if you vote for everything as some people do, we end up with bad games, bad movies, bad products, corporations ***** people all around the world.

 

There are a lot of companies and corporations that should have long ago gone out of business, as all they do is obnoxious scamming practice, yet people do not have brain cells to see through deception and avoid being scammed. There are whole zombifying concepts and approaches as to how to manipulate humans to spend more money here and there, how to create an addiction, how to create a victim.

 

The same way there are "spiritual" teachers who sell garbage and dangerous non-beneficial practices.

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by XianGong

[Mig]

7 hours ago, freeform said:

 

If you don’t want to pay - then don’t pay. 

Yes, I don't pay, I pay what I want to pay and consider fair to pay especially books. And that is my desire so not sure if that fits in the Daoist mentality.

 

7 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Take things that are freely given. Particularly if you are exceptionally poor (unable to feed, clothe or house yourself). Charity was designed for exactly such situations.

Are you exceptionally poor? Are you talking poor as you have been or been in that situation not able to feed or clothe yourself? I don't understand why I need to take things that are freely given. So many seminars I have been where people go to get whatever paper or gadget even though clearly don't need it or when they serve refreshments they gobble as much as they can, just because it was free. And someone said there is no free lunch, if it is free then there a price to pay.

 

7 hours ago, freeform said:

 

But insisting that someone who charges for their teachings that they shouldn’t be charging - that’s essentially being a parasite - and feeding off that person.

A parasite, what is wrong being a parasite, aren't we all parasites? Or are you a special specie of humans that is perfect with no faults?

 

7 hours ago, freeform said:

 

If you force someone to give you what they have - that’s called exploitation.
 

Take it from them without asking and that’s called stealing.

 

Nothing is ‘free’... Either the exchange is fair or it’s parasitic.

 

Like a colonial power pillaging a native population for all the value they can extract.

 

Or a mining company destroying an ancient forest because there’s a bit of molybdenum in the subsoil and it’s just there ‘free’ for you to take.

 

If you want to be a parasite then go ahead - you’ll be in good company.

 

But don’t fool yourself with justifications and ignorance.

I rather being ignorant so I learn from those who don't point others as ignorant.

 

7 hours ago, freeform said:

 

The most insidious thing is when people justify parasitic behaviour as some sort of social justice thing. You talk about equality and all that stuff - but then your self entitlement gets the better of you - surely you deserve to get the things you want but not pay for them.

Who's talking about social justice or equality? Oh do you mean I ask as question on both to know about what some eastern philosophical think about those terms, well my dear, self entitlement as you say it is only your opinion, and you know what an opinion is?
 

If you only take and don’t give, you’re a parasite. Simple as that.

 

Again what's wrong being a parasite? Maybe you are not so good for you, assuming is wonderful and you know the meaning of assume, right?
 

And that’s fine... there are many parasites in nature.

Maybe we should review some biology 101 classes about parasites not sociology

7 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Just don’t pretend it’s for some higher cause. That’s just bullshiting yourself. Be a parasite and be proud  

 

Who's bullshitting here so far?
 

Years ago I used to download pirated movies - I didn’t care. I justified it by thinking Hollywood makes too much money as it is..

 

Hmm wonder why you download pirated movies? Don't you have money maybe?

 

But that’s bullshit. There are thousands of people employed to create movies. And most of the movies I prefer aren’t the big Hollywood blockbusters.

 

Eventually I grew up and faced the truth of my actions - I was being a parasite. I was stealing.
 

I don’t need to watch all these movies - these days I rarely watch them... but if I do, then I contribute.

 

Now I prefer to give more than I take - or at least do my best in that endeavour.

 

Apparently your endeavour was to download pirated movies
 

 

 

[freeform]

5 hours ago, XianGong said:

There are a lot of companies and corporations that should have long ago gone out of business, as all they do is obnoxious scamming practice

there are parasites everywhere!

 

5 hours ago, XianGong said:

if you enjoy, or benefit from something good, supporting it with money is the same as voting.

Yes exactly.

 

I’d also add that your attention is also a vote. Don’t put your attention on stuff you wouldn’t pay for. Some people pirate movies they know they won’t even like. I say it’s better to stop polluting your mind with stuff like that.

[freeform]

5 hours ago, Mig said:

what is wrong being a parasite, aren't we all parasites?

 

Nothing wrong with it, no. We've all been parasites as little children!

 

What is wrong (imo) is when you make a big deal about inequality, but fail to see that you're causing inequality by being a parasite.

 

This is called ignorance.

 

I call it self-deception.

 

You project that you care about equality - yet you're willing to take more than you give.

 

Robin hood wouldn't be a celebrated character if he took from the rich and kept it all for himself...

 

You know when people say - 'the system is corrupt'... well one's own internal system can also be corrupt... it's corrupted by ignorance, by lying to yourself. The 'Daoist mentality' involves introspection and discernment.

[XianGong]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

Yes exactly.

 

I’d also add that your attention is also a vote. Don’t put your attention on stuff you wouldn’t pay for. Some people pirate movies they know they won’t even like. I say it’s better to stop polluting your mind with stuff like that.

 

That's an actually good point, all the wrong people lately become millionaires and celebrities, all due to "Hype" - a modern term, which means public attention, followers, and money. As there are actually very few people who are talented but a lot of who is a degraded, most common way to achieve "Success" in life right now, is to produce something extremely disgusting and obnoxious, that which will be discussed by many.

 

What is happening with Tik Tok culture, is that kids who do drugs, and have a negative amount of working brain cells, attract a lot of attention and as a result become a beacon of success and popularity, earning hundreds of millions of dollars for doing nothing, but degraded stuff online. 

The society has turned upside down for quite a while, and girls whoring themselves publicly are living a much better life than anyone with a hint of self-identity and conscience.

[Mig]

On 1/8/2021 at 2:58 AM, freeform said:

 

Nothing wrong with it, no. We've all been parasites as little children!

so are you saying you are not a parasite, is that what you are saying, if you are not, bravo!! you have crossed the river to Nirvana

 

On 1/8/2021 at 2:58 AM, freeform said:

 

What is wrong (imo) is when you make a big deal about inequality, but fail to see that you're causing inequality by being a parasite.

 

This is called ignorance.

who's talking about inequality? I thought this thread is about desire, right? And if you are qualifying me by being an ignorant parasite, I grant you that, happy now?

 

On 1/8/2021 at 2:58 AM, freeform said:

I call it self-deception.

 

You project that you care about equality - yet you're willing to take more than you give.

Great, it sounds you are educated to name what you want, it is your right and it is your opinion, like I said before everyone has an opinion and opinion is like a b...hole, everyone has one so feel entitled.

 

On 1/8/2021 at 2:58 AM, freeform said:

 

Robin hood wouldn't be a celebrated character if he took from the rich and kept it all for himself...

 

You know when people say - 'the system is corrupt'... well one's own internal system can also be corrupt... it's corrupted by ignorance, by lying to yourself. The 'Daoist mentality' involves introspection and discernment.

How great, what is Daoist mentality in your opinion, why don't you give some references in the original text, commentaries, paraphrase and understood by English translations so we can all learn from you?

[Maddie]

I get these types of patients in TCM as well sometimes. They think I should be doing this for free for some reason.

[exorcist_1699]

On 2020/12/15 at 12:03 AM, freeform said:

 

 

Non-attachment is indeed important... But one can get just as easily attached to the idea of non-attachment as to anything. The skill is not in removing things one can get attached to (otherwise suicide would be the ideal solution) - the skill is in developing equanimity so you can come and go as you please, without getting attached.

 

"attached to the idea of non-attachment "  means attaching to the emptiness ,   which is just  another kind of attachments  that fails many people's  attempts to attain a genuine  mindless Mind . Such a loophole , regardless  of many people's ignorance  of it , is fully  understood by both Taoism and Zen  . However, the ways to solve it can be very difficult , much more difficult than your trial of solving some abstract mathematical theorem /conjecture because   "intuitive abstraction"  *  is  much difficult to grasp than  analytic abstraction that we do in daily life .  Ways to deal with it can be :

 

1) " 為著有者說空 , 為著空者說有 "  ( " To those attached to beings , you preach emptiness ;  to those attached to emptiness , you preach being " )

 

2) Negation of negation :  You try negating  the  " attachment of  non-attachment " , thinking that your intention of getting ride of attachment to emptiness can  make you attain  the genuine emptiness ... ;  unfortunately , it likely only leads  you to a series of negations without end or outlet .

 

3) " 當下無心, 悟無所得"  (  " At one stroke you  forget all  minds , and expect no attainment, achievements.. from it  " )

 

* A term sounds contradictory as people always  view intuition as a direct , flash-like grasp of some truth in some area of knowledge or skills ;  the fact that emptiness does get layers is the basis for such a claim .

 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2021 by exorcist_1699