Pyrokinesis Discussion

[Maddie]

6 hours ago, XianGong said:

You can never prove that pyrokinesis or electrokinesis or levitation is impossible, as you can never prove that a god or deities do not exist. 

 

 

You don't prove the non-existence of things you prove the existence of things.

 

I could say you cannot disprove that the entire world exists on a hair on the back of Jake the dog sort of Horton hears a who style.

But the burden of proof is on me if I make such a claim to prove that it is true.

[XianGong]

4 hours ago, dmattwads said:

But the burden of proof is on me if I make such a claim to prove that it is true.

 

"Burden" of proof lies only on those who care.

It took 300 years to prove one mathematical hypothesis and still very few people can understand the "proof". There are millions of things that cannot be proven in 2020. Yet the hypothesis was used and applied in maths for much longer.

I would say it takes a very special mindset to waste a limited lifetime trying to prove something to someone.

How would you prove that colour exists to a blind and deaf person from birth?

[XianGong]

4 hours ago, dmattwads said:

Doesn't sound like you need one either.

 

I am humble enough to accept a teacher if his level is several heads above mine, on all the levels.

[freeform]

 

A little discussion by Nathan Brine about some of this stuff  

 

All genuine systems have specific, verifiable ‘tests’ or ‘signs’ to see whether you’ve managed to achieve a necessary stage in the process or not.

 

Not all schools externalise Qi in this way. But several of them do.
 

Even the ones that focus on spiritual growth have very specific, objective evidence that can be verified.

 

Many ‘spiritual’ people find this sort of thing kind of disconcerting.
 

They’ll often make all kinds of mental somersaults to try and find a flaw in it.

 

But I think that they dislike this fact because it puts their subjective sense of achievement under scrutiny.

 

For me, realising that this is how Daoist traditions work was a pretty game-changing discovery for me.

 

I’m very skeptical by nature. I question people’s assertions all the time. I question my own experiences all the time. Having gone through a few make-believe schools, it was clear to me how easily people slip into ‘magical thinking’ type biases when they get into spiritual stuff.

 

And yes - it’s humbling to be told that you’re nowhere near where you thought you were.

 

Or that mind blowing experience was just a temporary thing that didn’t really make a difference in your development.

But for me, knowing that there’s no way to fool myself (let alone my teacher) is really exciting.
 

True, accurate feedback. On something that at first seems so vague and subjective. 
 

If your aim is to actually achieve something then this is a really cool part of the path for you.
 

Discovering this was probably the biggest reason I didn’t drop my training. Even though I was completely humbled by it at first.

 

If your spiritual practice is in any way  directed by some sort of vanity or self-importance - the drive to look good to others or to yourself... then an objective verification of your true development is terrifying.

 

Certainly when I had my bubble burst it was quite painful... and then utterly hilarious... and then hugely motivating.

 

Think you’re awakened? There’s a simple test for it. There’s a test for having had the experience (as long as it was recentish) - and there’s a test for how well the awakening has matured in you.

 

I’ve seen a lot people come and get tested by my teacher. Many Buddhists, Daoists, even a congregation of fancily dressed and bejewelled Hindus from Bali...

 

It was funny seeing my teacher trying to ‘save face’ with complements before gently bringing the vast majority of self-proclaimed cultivators down to earth.

 

80% of drivers think they’re better than average drivers... but that’s technically impossible.

 

Things are a lot worse in spiritual circles.

 

[freeform]

1 minute ago, XianGong said:

 

I am humble enough to accept a teacher if his level is several heads above mine, on all the levels.

To be honest - with a genuine teacher, it’s you who needs to be accepted - rarely the other way round.

[Cleansox]

39 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

All genuine systems have specific, verifiable ‘tests’ or ‘signs’ to see whether you’ve managed to achieve a necessary stage in the process or not.

Yes. 

We have some, five of them that I are aware of, which I haven't come close to yet. I'm not sure it can be done by a householder, it requires more time per day. 

 

I am on the intermediate stage (and sort of surprised that I have managed to get that far), and the tests are all in the last stage of the practice. 

 

No pyrokinesis though, and I only know how one of them is supposed to look when you succeed. All five are external, while most things on my present level are internal experiences. 

 

[Maddie]

18 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

Yes. 

We have some, five of them that I are aware of, which I haven't come close to yet. I'm not sure it can be done by a householder, it requires more time per day. 

 

I am on the intermediate stage (and sort of surprised that I have managed to get that far), and the tests are all in the last stage of the practice. 

 

No pyrokinesis though, and I only know how one of them is supposed to look when you succeed. All five are external, while most things on my present level are internal experiences. 

 

 

Generally in Buddhism when someone claims to be enlightened the first test is to see if they can be angered. 

An enlightened being will have no sexual desire

An enlightened being will have no desire for powers

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by dmattwads

[XianGong]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

To be honest - with a genuine teacher, it’s you who needs to be accepted - rarely the other way round.

 

Yes, but if teacher ain't worthy why would I even bother to try to be accepted. There is no interest or motivation to get involved.

 

55 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

Generally in Buddhism when someone claims to be enlightened the first test is to see if they can be angered. 

An enlightened being will have no sexual desire

An enlightened being will have no desire for powers

Sounds like the mental hospital is full of enlightened beings, especially after lobotomy procedures

Imbeciles often have all those traits and people with the blocked sexual centre and blocked Manipura and blocked Anahata, will be enlightened by your measurement.

[XianGong]

I might think the only way to verify someone is enlightened is by being enlightened yourself. Then you can compare object X to object Y and see if they have similar or equal levels of development.

 

So far this word "Enlightened being" has no scale nor means to measure. As nobody is an enlightened being we can never verify it.

Edited December 7, 2020 by XianGong

[Maddie]

24 minutes ago, XianGong said:

 

Yes, but if teacher ain't worthy why would I even bother to try to be accepted. There is no interest or motivation to get involved.

 

Sounds like the mental hospital is full of enlightened beings, especially after lobotomy procedures

Imbeciles often have all those traits and people with the blocked sexual centre and blocked Manipura and blocked Anahata, will be enlightened by your measurement.

 

Yes, detachment sounds crazy to the attached.

[XianGong]

6 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

Yes, detachment sounds crazy to the attached.

 

Sounds crazy stupid. Sad that people destroy themselves hoping to become enlightened being and reap zero benefits from this path in the end.

Edited December 7, 2020 by XianGong

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, XianGong said:

 

Sounds crazy stupid. Sad that people destroy themselves hoping to become enlightened being and reap zero benefits from this path in the end.

 

If enlightenment is the end of suffering permanently how is it sad?

[XianGong]

1 minute ago, dmattwads said:

 

If enlightenment is the end of suffering permanently how is it sad?

 

How is it permanent? After death you come back and there goes next round of suffering.

[Maddie]

8 minutes ago, XianGong said:

 

How is it permanent? After death you come back and there goes next round of suffering.

 

If you become enlightened you are not reborn. It's one of the main aspects of enlightenment.

[XianGong]

31 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

If you become enlightened you are not reborn. It's one of the main aspects of enlightenment.

 

Ok. Provide Evidence. Supernatural claims require supernatural evidence.

 

Waiting... 

[Maddie]

10 minutes ago, XianGong said:

 

Ok. Provide Evidence. Supernatural claims require supernatural evidence.

 

Waiting... 

 

Yes fair enough. So if you're willing to bear with me here I will attempt to show you how this works.

 

First tell me what is it that you believe causes someone to reincarnate in the first place?

[thelerner]

please don't let this derail the conversation but..

Fascinating video.. but at 10:42, it seems like the gentleman has stopped pushing, JC is bending down to pick up one of the boxes, and right then, with no one seemingly doing anything.. 3 boxes move in tandem sideways an inch or two. 

I don't understand that.  He seems to have stopped pushing, is waiting for JC to pick up the fallen box, so why the movement then?  Could be real, but its in my Don't Know category.  I am impressed that the videos presenter studied w/ Wang LiPing. 

 

and another tangent..

I was just reading an old article online (martial arts site) w/ Jim McMillan,  what was notable was his saying that Mo Pai brought him closer to God.  That is what struck him as most impressive.  So.. speaking of Siddhi's personal abilities feeling close to God is a pretty good one. 

 

and another tangent.. I like Nathan Brine's Youtube site.  Just downloaded his Pore Breathing guided meditation.  Look forward to practicing it.  Anything from Wang LiPing is good stuff. 

[XianGong]

28 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

First tell me what is it that you believe causes someone to reincarnate in the first place?

 

It is basically a chance to grow. Why do seeds grow planted in the earth?

The thing that makes them fall from the tree to get into the earth is called gravity force.

Edited December 7, 2020 by XianGong

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, XianGong said:

 

It is basically a chance to grow. Why do seeds grow planted in the earth?

 

And why do we need to grow at all? Or be at all?

[XianGong]

1 minute ago, dmattwads said:

And why do we need to grow at all? Or be at all?

 

You don't want to exist?

[thelerner]

1 hour ago, XianGong said:

I might think the only way to verify someone is enlightened is by being enlightened yourself. Then you can compare object X to object Y and see if they have similar or equal levels of development.

Right and there are some schools, such as Freeform, Cleansox, Dmattwads are talking about that do just that.  

1 hour ago, XianGong said:

 

So far this word "Enlightened being" has no scale nor means to measure. As nobody is an enlightened being we can never verify it.

Thing is, different traditions have different definitions of what enlightenment is.  Still those who've long practices should have a certain 'wah' about them. 

 

My definition is relatively low hanging fruit.  I've known people, no special powers, living life w/ a sense of flow and peace, that is good enough for me.  Though undoubtedly wouldn't pass mustard at old traditional schools, or some modern ones, where its all about the electricity/inner power. 

[Maddie]

17 minutes ago, XianGong said:

 

You don't want to exist?

 

The Buddha said birth is suffering, aging is suffering, death is suffering, not getting what one wants is suffering, getting what one does not want is suffering, impermanence is suffering, delusion is suffering. Tell me what is the appeal to existence in Samara if this is the experience?

[Maddie]

5 minutes ago, thelerner said:

My definition is relatively low hanging fruit.  I've known people, no special powers, living life w/ a sense of flow and peace, that is good enough for me.  Though undoubtedly wouldn't pass mustard at old traditional schools, or some modern ones, where its all about the electricity/inner power. 

 

This makes me think of the story where some of the Buddha's disciples asked him why he didn't often preform displays of super natural power to convince people of his dharma. Basically the Buddha's answer in a para-phrased nutshell is that magic tricks don't help people understand the dharma which in turn does not lead to the end of suffering so it is of little use. The only power he did say was useful was the power to teach the dharma effectively.

[Wilhelm]

4 hours ago, thelerner said:

please don't let this derail the conversation but..

Fascinating video.. but at 10:42, it seems like the gentleman has stopped pushing, JC is bending down to pick up one of the boxes, and right then, with no one seemingly doing anything.. 3 boxes move in tandem sideways an inch or two. 

I don't understand that.  He seems to have stopped pushing, is waiting for JC to pick up the fallen box, so why the movement then?  Could be real, but its in my Don't Know category.  I am impressed that the videos presenter studied w/ Wang LiPing. . 

Nathan talks about that in the YouTube clip before showing the video (edit: 9:50).  If I recall correctly, he puts Yin Qi in the boxes with a connection to his mingmen, which apparently is what influenced them when he bent over.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Wilhelm

[XianGong]

4 hours ago, dmattwads said:

The Buddha said birth is suffering, aging is suffering, death is suffering, not getting what one wants is suffering, getting what one does not want is suffering, impermanence is suffering, delusion is suffering. Tell me what is the appeal to existence in Samara if this is the experience?

 

You should have started from that. We have very different terms and ideas about what Enlightened being is. I would even say it is opposite meanings.

I do not want to become enlightened by your definition. I will deny such enlightenment if given for free, also why would I care about what The Buddha said, it is clear to me that Suffering is good. 

My first goal is immortality, making my existence permanent and everlasting. Only then my next goals will become possible.