Dao Bums gender divide

[Maddie]

Something I have noticed for a long time but haven't said anything about yet is the gender divide in this forum, but also in spirituality in general. It seems that the majority of the "Dao Bums" are male, and most (most not all) of the videos on youtube about Buddhism, and Taoism are made by males. On the other hand most of the videos I see on youtube about witchcraft, paganism, and wicca are female. I wonder why that is. Please keep all comments respectful and kind though as the motive here to to truly understand and not start an internet flame war.

[thelerner]

It's a pity and a loss.  There have been instances of woman being trolled by inconsiderate misogynists here.  Hopefully those days are past. 

It could be an internet thing.  ie a mostly anonymous place where it's easy to bully people.  Also easy to misunderstand since we type without the benefit of tone and body language. 

[ilumairen]

24 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

Something I have noticed for a long time but haven't said anything about yet is the gender divide in this forum, but also in spirituality in general. It seems that the majority of the "Dao Bums" are male, and most (most not all) of the videos on youtube about Buddhism, and Taoism are made by males. On the other hand most of the videos I see on youtube about witchcraft, paganism, and wicca are female. I wonder why that is. Please keep all comments respectful and kind though as the motive here to to truly understand and not start an internet flame war.

The most simple answer: that which you cite as being dominantly presented by females don’t tend to have the same scripture which can be understood and quoted in a manner denigrating to females.

[Maddie]

Just now, ilumairen said:

The most simple answer: that which you cite as being dominantly presented by females don’t tend to have the same scripture which can be understood and quoted in a manner denigrating to females.

What do you mean?

[ilumairen]

10 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

What do you mean?

Here is an old thread which illustrates this a bit:

 

 

 

[RiverSnake]

Water finds its own level. Most nurses are female.

 

Spheres of life which have a feminine quality will be attractive to women and vice versa. Most martial artists are men. It's not rocket science....energy and archetypes are real and built into reality. 

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by RiverSnake

[Maddie]

Just now, ilumairen said:

Here is an old thread which illustrates this a bit:

 

 

 

 

Oh yes, ok I thought I knew what you were getting at but wanted to be sure. So what I think you are saying is that since the scriptures of these ways are male oriented and dominated there would be less appeal to the gender that these same scriptures classify as second class citizens?

 

Makes me think of Ajahn Brahm getting excommunicated from his temple in Thailand for ordaining female nuns. Apparently the men in his temple just couldn't handle that and sacked him.

[Maddie]

Just now, RiverSnake said:

Water finds its own level. Most nurses are female. Spheres of life which have a feminine quality will be attractive to women and vice versa. Most martial artists are men. It's not rocket science....energy and archetypes are real and built into reality. 

 

 

 

 

Another way of looking at that though is that traditionally the reason most women were nurses is because in the past they were intentionally excluded from being doctors so that was the best they could do, and then cultural traditions seem to have a way of gaining a life of their own from those that do not question them.

[dwai]

This in not the case across the board. The Vedic period in India saw a lot of women Rishis (aka Rishika) who contributed to the Vedas — 

 

http://www.hindupedia.com/en/Women_as_Rishikas_in_the_Vedas

[Taomeow]

  

Just now, dmattwads said:

 

Another way of looking at that though is that traditionally the reason most women were nurses is because in the past they were intentionally excluded from being doctors so that was the best they could do, and then cultural traditions seem to have a way of gaining a life of their own from those that do not question them.

 

And where it wasn't the policy and med schools and employers did not discriminate based on gender, female doctors outnumbered male doctors.  E.g. where I grew up. 

 

Before the patriarchal takeover of medicine, historically the majority of healers in all human societies were women.  For the same reason the majority of mothers are women.   The two tasks are closely related.  To forcibly divorce mothering arts from healing arts was the beginning of the end of health.  Mental, physical, emotional, social, and environmental. 

 

Taoism is, at its core, a healing/health restoring/health creating modality.  It suffered the same fate every other healing art did.  To wit, it got hijacked and thwarted.  Online "spirituality" that is gender weird merely reflects that state of affairs.  

 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, dmattwads said:

Something I have noticed for a long time but haven't said anything about yet is the gender divide in this forum, but also in spirituality in general. It seems that the majority of the "Dao Bums" are male, and most (most not all) of the videos on youtube about Buddhism, and Taoism are made by males. On the other hand most of the videos I see on youtube about witchcraft, paganism, and wicca are female. I wonder why that is. Please keep all comments respectful and kind though as the motive here to to truly understand and not start an internet flame war.

 

Witchcraft and wicca focus on the goddess and are to quite an extent matriarchal.

 

Buddhism I'm afraid is largely patriarchal - although certainly in vajrayana there is no reason for this apart from cultural ones that I can think off - and there are many great female practitioners in the Tibetan system.

 

I remember moderating 'genderwarz' years ago on here where the likes of Susan Carlson were hounded by a gang of male members.  In those days we didn't edit or ban very much so it just got put in the Pit.  Now I think it would be different.

 

It would be interesting to look at the proportion of female applications for membership and then compare that with the actual ratio in active members and try to find out if there is a barrier somehow - and if that is not the case try to work out why so few women are interested in the first place.  Perhaps its the preponderance of Mantak Chia related noobies that puts women off???

 

 

[Maddie]

Just now, Taomeow said:

  

 

And where it wasn't the policy and med schools and employers did not discriminate based on gender, female doctors outnumbered male doctors.  E.g. where I grew up. 

 

Before the patriarchal takeover of medicine, historically the majority of healers in all human societies were women.  For the same reason the majority of mothers are women.   The two tasks are closely related.  To forcibly divorce mothering arts from healing arts was the beginning of the end of health.  Mental, physical, emotional, social, and environmental. 

 

Taoism is, at its core, a healing/health restoring/health creating modality.  It suffered the same fate every other healing art did.  To wit, it got hijacked and thwarted.  Online "spirituality" that is gender weird merely reflects that state of affairs.  

 

 

Yes this is most unfortunate. When I was in acupuncture school it was probably 75% female. I assume this is because acupuncture is new in the west so the traditional male dominated mentality hasn't entered.... yet at least.

[RiverSnake]

24 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

Another way of looking at that though is that traditionally the reason most women were nurses is because in the past they were intentionally excluded from being doctors so that was the best they could do, and then cultural traditions seem to have a way of gaining a life of their own from those that do not question them.

 

Best to hear it from the horses mouth instead of projecting onto the situation. You can read the comments below the video as well. You didn't mention the part about most men being Martial Arts or how the majority of Men compose the military. Like i said...energy and archetypes are real, people gravitate towards spheres of influence which resonate with there internal makeup.   

 

There are of course Feminine archetypes which have a more masculine tint to them (Kali) and they are quite lovely.  

 

I'll add in response to Taomeow post.....that healing is a definitely a more feminine/watery domain. Energy healers and Alternative Medicine fields are chuck full of women....these are very very different from the domain of being a Doctor....which has a much less intuitive and more cranial approach to medicine. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by RiverSnake

[dwai]

Vis-a-vis Martial power, according to my Sifu, women are naturally more powerful than men in terms of subtle energetics (qi, jing, etc). If it takes a man 10 years to get really good at applying taiji power, a woman can attain the same level within 2 years (my observation). However, the problem is that there aren't many women who are interested in developing martial power and that in turn closes a few gates for them to enter this field of cultivation.

 

One of the most powerful women I met was this 70 years old little lady, 110 lbs, barely 5 feet tall, a relative beginner in Taijiquan, and was able to toss us bigger and younger men around like ragdolls. She couldn't believe that she was doing it either, kept asking me if I'm "fake jumping". We figured out later that the (form of) taijiquan we practice calls for complete abandonment of strength (li). Being old, small, and weak in physical strength, my friend didn't have any tendency to use brute force at all. So she was easily able to adapt to the taijiquan way, and hence everything that most men will overtly or covertly disbelieve (and find it hard, if not impossible to let go of), she was naturally already there. 

My wife has dabbled in taijiquan, and she has natural abilities, but until recently had no interest in pursuing spiritual practices with any degree of persistence. It's interesting that as she is entering menopause, she seems to be drawn to the spiritual/energetic path more seriously. Of course, I might be making a wrong correlation...

Edited December 6, 2020 by dwai

[Maddie]

42 minutes ago, RiverSnake said:

 

Best to hear it from the horses mouth instead of projecting onto the situation. You can read the comments below the video as well. You didn't mention the part about most men being Martial Arts or how the majority of Men compose the military. Like i said...energy and archetypes are real, people gravitate towards spheres of influence which resonate with there internal makeup.   

 

There are of course Feminine archetypes which have a more masculine tint to them (Kali) and they are quite lovely.  

 

I'll add in response to Taomeow post.....that healing is a definitely a more feminine/watery domain. Energy healers and Alternative Medicine fields are chuck full of women....these are very very different from the domain of being a Doctor....which has a much less intuitive and more cranial approach to medicine. 

 

 

 

 

 

It's not projecting if it actually happened in history, and for my undergrad degree I was a history major. The fact that an individual chooses something over another does not negate history. That is like confusing weather for climate.

 

True I didn't reply about the military but could not the same point be made about a field that traditionally rejected women from participating in it?

 

 

[Maddie]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

It would be interesting to look at the proportion of female applications for membership and then compare that with the actual ratio in active members and try to find out if there is a barrier somehow - and if that is not the case try to work out why so few women are interested in the first place.  Perhaps its the preponderance of Mantak Chia related noobies that puts women off???

 

 

 

I wonder how many prospective female members read that Chia stuff and are just like nope, nope, nope,

[liminal_luke]

I think it´s important to note that the gender divide dmattwads noticed doesn´t concern the actual practice of Buddhism or Taoism.  It might well be that there are an equal or even greater number of women than men practicing these arts.  It´s just that women practitioners seem less likely to post about Buddhism and Taoism online and make Youtube videos.  As an avid poster, let me be the first to assure you: posting about spirituality and practicing it are distinct activities.  

Edited December 6, 2020 by liminal_luke

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, liminal_luke said:

I think it´s important to note that the gender divide dmattwads noticed doesn´t concern the actual practice of Buddhism or Taoism.  It might well be that there are an equal or even greater number of women than men practicing these arts.  It´s just that women practitioners seem less likely to post about Buddhism and Taoism online and make Youtube videos.  As an avid poster, let me be the first to assure you: posting about spirituality and practicing it are distinct activities.  

 

A very good point indeed.

[Cleansox]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

and if that is not the case try to work out why so few women are interested in the first place.  Perhaps its the preponderance of Mantak Chia related noobies that puts women off???

Or the bickering, and the competitive mind set? 

[RiverSnake]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

Vis-a-vis Martial power, according to my Sifu, women are naturally more powerful than men in terms of subtle energetics (qi, jing, etc). If it takes a man 10 years to get really good at applying taiji power, a woman can attain the same level within 2 years (my observation). However, the problem is that there aren't many women who are interested in developing martial power and that in turn closes a few gates for them to enter this field of cultivation.

 

One of the most powerful women I met was this 70 years old little lady, 110 lbs, barely 5 feet tall, a relative beginner in Taijiquan, and was able to toss us bigger and younger men around like ragdolls. She couldn't believe that she was doing it either, kept asking me if I'm "fake jumping". We figured out later that the (form of) taijiquan we practice calls for complete abandonment of strength (li). Being old, small, and weak in physical strength, my friend didn't have any tendency to use brute force at all. So she was easily able to adapt to the taijiquan way, and hence everything that most men will overtly or covertly disbelieve (and find it hard, if not impossible to let go of), she was naturally already there. 

My wife has dabbled in taijiquan, and she has natural abilities, but until recently had no interest in pursuing spiritual practices with any degree of persistence. It's interesting that as she is entering menopause, she seems to be drawn to the spiritual/energetic path more seriously. Of course, I might be making a wrong correlation...

 

I remember Glenn in Path Notes said something similar, that women who'd gone through the Kundalini process were much stronger than men. Yet to see it myself, but i don't doubt it. As a long time martial artist it is definitely true that women grasp "soft power" much more quickly than men....while for men tension and explosive power comes much more easily. 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, dmattwads said:

Something I have noticed for a long time but haven't said anything about yet is the gender divide in this forum, but also in spirituality in general. It seems that the majority of the "Dao Bums" are male, and most (most not all) of the videos on youtube about Buddhism, and Taoism are made by males. On the other hand most of the videos I see on youtube about witchcraft, paganism, and wicca are female. I wonder why that is. Please keep all comments respectful and kind though as the motive here to to truly understand and not start an internet flame war.

 

At the risk of generalisations ; 

male,  structure , organised religion, teachers , texts , established practice

 

female, free for , nature and paganism , 'created' modern adaption ( 'le  ' - although started and developed by 2 males sourcing another  male       { Gerald Gardiner  >  Alex Sanders , based on Crowley  }  ) ,  self 'intuition' ,  experience and spontaneous ceremony .

 

In my early 'career' an aim was to join both . I felt there was too much derision and conflict between ' Magic' and 'paganism'  - male female .  So I got into  both and encouraged interaction .   Got attacked by both sides then , of course   

 

But had some success , and that success was pretty amazing , when the right people got together .

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, thelerner said:

It's a pity and a loss.  There have been instances of woman being trolled by inconsiderate misogynists here.  Hopefully those days are past. 

It could be an internet thing.  ie a mostly anonymous place where it's easy to bully people.  Also easy to misunderstand since we type without the benefit of tone and body language. 

 

Yes.   A learned female friend of mine  left here after being  wrongfully accused  and  attacked .   Back then there where more female contributors .  Maybe they noticed what happened to her ?

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Taomeow said:

  

 

And where it wasn't the policy and med schools and employers did not discriminate based on gender, female doctors outnumbered male doctors.  E.g. where I grew up. 

 

Before the patriarchal takeover of medicine, historically the majority of healers in all human societies were women.  For the same reason the majority of mothers are women.   The two tasks are closely related.  To forcibly divorce mothering arts from healing arts was the beginning of the end of health.  Mental, physical, emotional, social, and environmental. 

 

Taoism is, at its core, a healing/health restoring/health creating modality.  It suffered the same fate every other healing art did.  To wit, it got hijacked and thwarted.  Online "spirituality" that is gender weird merely reflects that state of affairs.  

 

 

 

Although you would no doubt be aware of the dynamic , there is a great section in 'Masks of the Illuminati ' ( By Robert Anton Wilson ); Midwife Vs  Doctor - in a post Victorian setting  . The nervous  would be father  lets both attend  but in the  end opts for the midwife .

 

I remember the scene where birth is imminent    Midwife  :  "  I can see a bit of the head . "

 

Man  "  OH My GOD !    A  BIT  of the head ... what has happened ? !  "

 

Midwife ;  " Some one get that man out of here ! "

 

 

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

At the risk of generalisations ; 

male,  structure , organised religion, teachers , texts , established practice

 

 

Clearly you have not met the battalion of Sunday school teachers I had when I was young lol.

[Nungali]

3 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

Clearly you have not met the battalion of Sunday school teachers I had when I was young lol.

 

Clearly I said I risked generalisation . 

 

I agree with the above comments on  martial arts .   It was SOOOO much easier to teach women aikido than men .