Spirituality and your World

[rocala]

Recently, on another forum, a poster was attacked for expressing environmentalist views in conjunction with her Buddhist Practice. Are such worldly matters irreconcilable with the spiritual life?

[RiverSnake]

Physical and Spiritual reality are intimately intertwined. What effects one effects the other.....As above so Below. Drop the labels and there is no longer a problem....just engage with life...raw and unfiltered.  

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, rocala said:

Recently, on another forum, a poster was attacked for expressing environmentalist views in conjunction with her Buddhist Practice. Are such worldly matters irreconcilable with the spiritual life?

 

absolutely not... but one can not serve two masters thus Spirit is the rightful dharmic master and the world or mind is the rightful servant to that.

Edited December 8, 2020 by old3bob

[Maddie]

1 hour ago, rocala said:

Recently, on another forum, a poster was attacked for expressing environmentalist views in conjunction with her Buddhist Practice. Are such worldly matters irreconcilable with the spiritual life?

 

I guess that depends on how you look at it. One of the major factors in the current environmental state of the world is run by greed. Greed for the profits that can be made off of the resources of the planet without consideration of how this will affect the planet and those that live on the planet, so also a lack of compassion and empathy.

 

Greed, compassion, and empathy are all things that can be considered spiritual issues.

[silent thunder]

no appreciable distinction between spiritual and anything else to me any longer...

[dwai]

Spirituality should guide all our action in the transactional world. Whatever gets in the way of spiritual practice should be lower priority.
 

IMHO being an activist can be detrimental to real spiritual work, unless one can do it with the equanimity of a Karma yogi. Most activists I’ve met are angry individuals — outraged at the injustices of the world. Not a good thing for spiritual work. 

[welkin]

Spirituality isn't real

 

Our world isn't real

 

A world is real

 

Lives are real

 

Growth and practices are different levels of hamster wheels

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, rocala said:

Recently, on another forum, a poster was attacked for expressing environmentalist views in conjunction with her Buddhist Practice. Are such worldly matters irreconcilable with the spiritual life?

 

I would expect a good Buddhist to exhibit  kindness, consideration, help and assistance for anything suffering ; animals , plants , forests and  even people effected by bad environmental degradation .

 

I am confused by the responses .  Perhaps i misunderstood the  issue  ?   Is environmentalism supposed to be non spiritual now ? 

 

I also like action . I think we have enough people already meditating  and chanting to help the environment .

[freeform]

When things become political, it tends to sweep you up into emotional reactivity and drama... and that leads one away from spirit. (And usually away from your initial political cause).

 

That doesn’t mean you can’t do your bit for the environment!
 

But if you find yourself slashing the tires of some geologist who discovered lithium ripe for mining in your town - then yes, you’re sleepwalking into an emotional melodrama.

 

 

The dog in this scenario is one’s spirit - the confrontation is the melodrama - and the reason for the confrontation (whether legitimate or not) no longer matters...  

Edited December 9, 2020 by freeform

[old3bob]

4 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

I would expect a good Buddhist to exhibit  kindness, consideration, help and assistance for anything suffering ; animals , plants , forests and  even people effected by bad environmental degradation .

 

I am confused by the responses .  Perhaps i misunderstood the  issue  ?   Is environmentalism supposed to be non spiritual now ? 

 

I also like action . I think we have enough people already meditating  and chanting to help the environment .

 

I'm kind of with you...although I'd say we can  expect a certain amount of confusing responses per "the law of seven" and such...

[doc benway]

17 hours ago, rocala said:

Recently, on another forum, a poster was attacked for expressing environmentalist views in conjunction with her Buddhist Practice. Are such worldly matters irreconcilable with the spiritual life?

 

On the path I'm following, Bön dzogchen, worldly matters must eventually be reconciled with spiritual life.

In fact, worldly matters become the very spiritual path itself, but only when we are ready.

This is referred to as integration.

 

When we first begin practicing, our ability to recognize and remain connected to our spiritual core is elusive and unstable.

At this level we protect ourselves, like a small candle flame needs to be protected from the wind.

We're easily distracted so we practice in a quiet room, on a cushion, or withdraw in retreat.

 

Once we develop certainty in our practice, then we begin challenging that spiritual connection progressively. 

First we begin by integrating supportive activities with our meditation - prostrations, mantras, circumambulation, etc...

When we get a little stronger we can integrate neutral activities - eating, shitting, work, sports, etc...

When very stable we can even integrate negative emotions, strong positive emotions, lust, sex, confrontational situations, and so forth.

At this stage our flame is stronger but there is still effort and intention involved.

 

If we are fortunate enough, there may come a time when the practice is effortless.

Our flame is like a bonfire, fed by challenging situations, growing stronger all the time.

At this stage practice and worldly matters are fully integrated.

This is sometimes referred to as everything having "one taste."

[freeform]

2 hours ago, steve said:

At this stage practice and worldly matters are fully integrated.

This is sometimes referred to as everything having "one taste."

 

Quite a different approach to the 'one foot in - one foot out' approach of the Daoists.

 

Which in essence means we treat worldly matters with humour, humility and indifference - but still participate.

 

Of course you save that drowning puppy you see in the lake - because that's just what you do... but you forget all about it in 5 minutes... Not make 10 posts on social media and start campaigning to have the lake drained so that no more puppies will come to harm.

 

Same with politics - you form a well considered opinion, cast your vote and that's it.

 

You don't rejoice when Trump gets loses... you don't rub victory in your opposition's face... and you realise that it's just a funny game that us people still cling to - just as chimpanzee groups have done for thousands of years.

 

And when you see this stuff play out as just an infinitesimally small fragment of an immense universe - then you've got that sweet combination of humour, humility and indifference.

[doc benway]

53 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Quite a different approach to the 'one foot in - one foot out' approach of the Daoists.

 

Which in essence means we treat worldly matters with humour, humility and indifference - but still participate.

 

Of course you save that drowning puppy you see in the lake - because that's just what you do... but you forget all about it in 5 minutes... Not make 10 posts on social media and start campaigning to have the lake drained so that no more puppies will come to harm.

 

Same with politics - you form a well considered opinion, cast your vote and that's it.

 

You don't rejoice when Trump gets loses... you don't rub victory in your opposition's face... and you realise that it's just a funny game that us people still cling to - just as chimpanzee groups have done for thousands of years.

 

And when you see this stuff play out as just an infinitesimally small fragment of an immense universe - then you've got that sweet combination of humour, humility and indifference.

 

Actually, not nearly as different as your post suggests. Almost identical in fact. 

[old3bob]

although one mis-step off a razor's edge can land one way down there...not something to be humorous or indifferent about at any point.  Aka "the higher you go the further you can fall".

[rocala]

thanks @steve a highly informative post. That word "integration" seems to be popping up quite frequently in my reading. I am beginning to see just how important it is.

[doc benway]

The reason the practice I refer to is so close to freeform’s description is that the deepest spiritual connection we can make is to the full, unfabricated immediacy of the present moment. That is the spiritual connection I point to. That’s what emptiness means. All that comes from that, the worldly matters, are never separate from it but we usually are.

[liminal_luke]

@freeform often speaks of setting up conditions.  For instance: sinking the qi.  If I understand correctly, he has said we can´t sink the qi with our mind directly but we can set up conditions that lead the qi to naturally sink.  I think right action in the world is exactly the same way.  Thinking our way to right action often backfires.  What we need to do instead is set up the condition in which right action will spontaneously manifest.  What is this condition?  It´s a connection to the "unfabricated immediacy of the present moment" mentioned by @steve.  

 

I think it´s a mistake to speculate on the nature of right action without first making this connection.  It´s impossible to know in advance whether the right thing is something quiet (yin) or loud (yang).  Better to connect first and let what wants to arise arise.

[anshino23]

On 12/9/2020 at 5:50 PM, freeform said:

Of course you save that drowning puppy you see in the lake - because that's just what you do... but you forget all about it in 5 minutes... Not make 10 posts on social media and start campaigning to have the lake drained so that no more puppies will come to harm.

 

There's a classic story about 'merit' teaching this well. 

 

A Chinese Emperor invited Bodhidharma to the capital. The emperor was very fund of Buddhism, recited Buddhist prayers, wore Buddhist garments and had been hugely supporting the spreading and support of Buddhism throughout his entire kingdom. 

 

He asked Bodhidharma, "Since I came to the throne, I have built stupas, temples, published holy scriptures and supported countless monks and nuns. How great is the merit earned from all this?"

 

Bodhidharma answers boldly, "No merit whatsoever." ... "You have gained no merit. What you have done only produces worldly rewards, that is good fortune, great power, or great welath in your future lives, but you will be wandering around in samsara."

 

The message of the story is simply that as long as there is trace of self involved in the "doing" aspect, as in "I'm doing good", "I'm helping", "I did this", rather than it being simply a natural function of what you do, you do not earn true merit. 

 

That said, merit is a mysterious concept, and has more to it than this surface-level understanding. 

 

It is said that only buddhas or enlightened masters can fathom it as it involves cause-effect chains viewed on the causal-plane. 

[freeform]

On 10/12/2020 at 4:45 PM, liminal_luke said:

Thinking our way to right action often backfires.  What we need to do instead is set up the condition in which right action will spontaneously manifest.  What is this condition?  It´s a connection to the "unfabricated immediacy of the present moment" mentioned by @steve.  

Very well said

 

On 10/12/2020 at 6:12 PM, anshino23 said:

as long as there is trace of self involved in the "doing" aspect, as in "I'm doing good", "I'm helping", "I did this", rather than it being simply a natural function of what you do, you do not earn true merit. 

yeah - exactly. Selflessness begets the highest form of merit... and in a way selflessness is its own reward (at least for a cultivator).

 

The issue is that this is a really high bar! To be completely selflessly virtuous is close to impossible for the majority of us... 

 

So we start with something more simple - like just being kind without emotional involvement. This is also a skill and needs developing...

 

Because most of us are only kind when our emotional strings are tugged on (as is obvious from all the charity marketing methods).

 

If we can make non-emotionally driven kindness our default action, I believe it brings us closer to developing the deeper quality of selflessness. But that’s my own opinion.

 

Its been explained to me that kind actions that benefit another being are always meritorious whatever your intentions were.
 

But selfless actions are by far the most important ones for spiritual cultivation.

[Piyadasi]

44 minutes ago, freeform said:

Its been explained to me that kind actions that benefit another being are always meritorious whatever your intentions were.

 

But selfless actions are by far the most important ones for spiritual cultivation.

These distinctions are explained in the Dana Sutta (https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN7_49.html ) as follows, listing subtler and subtler motivations (I'll shorten it a bit for reading):
 

“Having given this gift seeking his own profit—with a mind attached (to the reward), seeking to store up for himself... he reappears in the company of the Four Great Kings. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty,
he is a returner, coming back to this world.
 

“Then there is the case of a person who gives a gift not seeking his own profit, not with a mind attached (to the reward), not seeking to store up for himself, nor (with the thought), ‘I’ll enjoy this after death.’ Instead, he gives a gift with the thought, ‘Giving is good.’ He gives his gift ...he reappears in the company of the Devas of the Thirty-three.
...he is a returner...
 

...he gives a gift with the thought, ‘This was given in the past, done in the past, by my father & grandfather. It would not be right for me to let this old family custom be discontinued’… on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the Devas of the Hours.
... he is a returner...
 

…he gives a gift with the thought, ‘I am well-off. These are not well-off. It would not be right for me, being well-off, not to give a gift to those who are not well-off’ …he reappears in the company of the Contented Devas.
...he is a returner...
 

…he gives a gift with the thought, ‘Just as there were the great sacrifices of the sages of the past—Aṭṭhaka, Vāmaka, Vāmadeva, Vessāmitta, Yamadaggi, Aṇgīrasa, Bhāradvāja, Vāseṭṭha, Kassapa, & Bhagu—in the same way will this be my distribution of gifts’…he reappears in the company of the Devas who Delight in Creation.
...he is a returner...
 

…he gives a gift with the thought, ‘When this gift of mine is given, it makes the mind serene. Gratification & joy arise’ …he reappears in the company of the Devas Wielding power over the creations of others.
...he is a returner, coming back to this world...
 

...he gives a gift with the thought, ‘This is an ornament for the mind, a support for the mind.’ He gives his gift...

“Having given this, not seeking his own profit, not with a mind attached (to the reward), not seeking to store up for himself, nor (with the thought), ‘I’ll enjoy this after death,’

—nor with the thought, ‘Giving is good,’

—nor with the thought, ‘This was given in the past, done in the past, by my father & grandfather. It would not be right for me to let this old family custom be discontinued,’

—nor with the thought, ‘I am well-off. These are not well-off. It would not be right for me, being well-off, not to give a gift to those who are not well-off,’

—nor with the thought, ‘Just as there were the great sacrifices of the sages of the past—Aṭṭhaka, Vāmaka, Vāmadeva, Vessāmitta, Yamadaggi, Aṇgīrasa, Bhāradvāja, Vāseṭṭha, Kassapa, & Bhagu—in the same way this will be my distribution of gifts,’

—nor with the thought, ‘When this gift of mine is given, it makes the mind serene. Gratification & joy arise,’
 

—but with the thought, ‘This is an ornament for the mind, a support for the mind’—on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of Brahmā’s Retinue. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a non-returner. He does not come back to this world.

-

It seems to me all kinds of motivations are good, but the subtler and more selfless we can become the more it will align with spiritual attainment.

[silent thunder]

speaking of gifts...

 

This conversation seems to me, a gift.

Thank you all.

Edited December 12, 2020 by silent thunder

[Limahong]

9 hours ago, silent thunder said:

This conversation seems to me, a gift.

Thank you all.

 

Good morning Creighton,

 

Is it time for friends all over the world to unite in peace?

 

 

Between (among) us let us plant a seed...

 

 

A great weekend.

 

- Anand

 

[Creation]

On 12/12/2020 at 6:12 AM, Piyadasi said:

“Having given this gift seeking his own profit—with a mind attached (to the reward), seeking to store up for himself... he reappears in the company of the Four Great Kings. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty,
he is a returner, coming back to this world.
 

“Then there is the case of a person who gives a gift not seeking his own profit, not with a mind attached (to the reward), not seeking to store up for himself, nor (with the thought), ‘I’ll enjoy this after death.’ Instead, he gives a gift with the thought, ‘Giving is good.’ He gives his gift ...he reappears in the company of the Devas of the Thirty-three.
...he is a returner...
 

...he gives a gift with the thought, ‘This was given in the past, done in the past, by my father & grandfather. It would not be right for me to let this old family custom be discontinued’… on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of the Devas of the Hours.
... he is a returner...
 

…he gives a gift with the thought, ‘I am well-off. These are not well-off. It would not be right for me, being well-off, not to give a gift to those who are not well-off’ …he reappears in the company of the Contented Devas.
...he is a returner...
 

…he gives a gift with the thought, ‘Just as there were the great sacrifices of the sages of the past—Aṭṭhaka, Vāmaka, Vāmadeva, Vessāmitta, Yamadaggi, Aṇgīrasa, Bhāradvāja, Vāseṭṭha, Kassapa, & Bhagu—in the same way will this be my distribution of gifts’…he reappears in the company of the Devas who Delight in Creation.
...he is a returner...
 

…he gives a gift with the thought, ‘When this gift of mine is given, it makes the mind serene. Gratification & joy arise’ …he reappears in the company of the Devas Wielding power over the creations of others.
...he is a returner, coming back to this world...
 

...he gives a gift with the thought, ‘This is an ornament for the mind, a support for the mind.’ He gives his gift...

“Having given this, not seeking his own profit, not with a mind attached (to the reward), not seeking to store up for himself, nor (with the thought), ‘I’ll enjoy this after death,’

—nor with the thought, ‘Giving is good,’

—nor with the thought, ‘This was given in the past, done in the past, by my father & grandfather. It would not be right for me to let this old family custom be discontinued,’

—nor with the thought, ‘I am well-off. These are not well-off. It would not be right for me, being well-off, not to give a gift to those who are not well-off,’

—nor with the thought, ‘Just as there were the great sacrifices of the sages of the past—Aṭṭhaka, Vāmaka, Vāmadeva, Vessāmitta, Yamadaggi, Aṇgīrasa, Bhāradvāja, Vāseṭṭha, Kassapa, & Bhagu—in the same way this will be my distribution of gifts,’

—nor with the thought, ‘When this gift of mine is given, it makes the mind serene. Gratification & joy arise,’
 

—but with the thought, ‘This is an ornament for the mind, a support for the mind’—on the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of Brahmā’s Retinue. Then, having exhausted that action, that power, that status, that sovereignty, he is a non-returner. He does not come back to this world.

The words of Shakyamuni are like a mountain of precious jewels, like an ocean of healing medicines.