Dealing with the dark side

[Maddie]

I realize this might sound very speculative and perhaps superstitious but I was wondering if anyone had any real knowledge or experience in dealing with protecting themselves from the dark side of spirituality such as from evil spirits, or curses and other such things? how would one recognize it being something like this as opposed to something else? And what are effective measures that can be taken to deal with it?

Edited December 10, 2020 by dmattwads

[RiverSnake]

Plenty of experience with protection work. Doing daily maintenance like salt baths are helpful to clear off bad juju. I know in ATRs they have practices called Uncrossings. Not something i am familiar with, but still valid. Plenty of books on PSD out there....our biggest challenges can come from the daily chaos of society.  A couple good books below. 

 

Psychic Self Defense for Home and Office by Choa Kok Sui 

Protection Magick by Jason Miller 

[Sketch]

My house has excellent Feng Shui and it's chock full of musical instruments. 

[old3bob]

from Hinduism:

 

"The Fourteen Cosmic Levels

The Ātma, whose origin is Satyaloka (the level of the reality of God), wanders on its long journey through space and time on different cosmic levels until it again reaches its original home.

In Indian cosmology there are fourteen cosmic levels named - seven higher and seven lower Lokas. The earth is situated at the beginning of the higher worlds; six levels are located above it and seven below .

 

These worlds are not places in a physical sense, but are spheres of consciousness. They all exist on the earth as well as within us.

 

(names of the 7 lower or "dark side" chakras with a little more description added below this quote)

The seven lower levels are called Atala, Vitala, Sutala, Rasātala, Talātala, Mahātala and Pātāla. They accommodate those whose natures are inclined towards sensuality and compulsiveness and are of a lower level of consciousness.

The upper levels, however, illustrate the spiritual evolution of humans. Each level has a Chakra assigned to it. Our point of departure is the Earth (Bhūrloka) in the Mūlādhāra Chakra. The astral sphere (Bhuvarloka) is located in the Svādhishthāna Chakra. Next we experience “heaven” (Svarloka) in the Manipūra Chakra, and in the Anāhata Chakra we are admitted to the level of the Saints (Maharloka). In the Vishuddhi Chakra we pass through the cosmic sphere of the beings of light (Janarloka). Through discipline and purification we acquire clarity of knowledge and wisdom in the Āgyā Chakra (Taparloka). In the Sahasrāra Chakra we finally enter the level of absolute truth and reality (Satyaloka)."

 

( 7 Lower chakras going to the  hell realms which many new age experts on the matter don't often mention and where we really do not want to land) 

 

"Atala  This chakra is located in the hips, it governs fear and lust.

Vitala  Located in the thighs, it governs anger and resentment.

Sutala Located in the knees, it governs jealousy.

Talatala Translated as 'under the bottom level', it is located in the calves, and it is a state of prolonged confusion and instinctive wilfulness.

Rasatala Located in the ankles, it is the centre of selfishness and pure animal nature.

Mahatala  Located in the feet, this is the dark realm 'without conscience', and inner blindness.

Patala  Located in the soles of the feet, this is the realm of malice, murder, torture and hatred, and in Hindu mythology it borders on the realm of Naraka, or Hell."

 

All the teachings say to find a teacher...

Edited December 10, 2020 by old3bob

[Maddie]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

from Hinduism:

 

"The Fourteen Cosmic Levels

The Ātma, whose origin is Satyaloka (the level of the reality of God), wanders on its long journey through space and time on different cosmic levels until it again reaches its original home.

In Indian cosmology there are fourteen cosmic levels named - seven higher and seven lower Lokas. The earth is situated at the beginning of the higher worlds; six levels are located above it and seven below .

 

These worlds are not places in a physical sense, but are spheres of consciousness. They all exist on the earth as well as within us.

 

(names of the 7 lower or "dark side" chakras with a little more description added below this quote)

The seven lower levels are called Atala, Vitala, Sutala, Rasātala, Talātala, Mahātala and Pātāla. They accommodate those whose natures are inclined towards sensuality and compulsiveness and are of a lower level of consciousness.

The upper levels, however, illustrate the spiritual evolution of humans. Each level has a Chakra assigned to it. Our point of departure is the Earth (Bhūrloka) in the Mūlādhāra Chakra. The astral sphere (Bhuvarloka) is located in the Svādhishthāna Chakra. Next we experience “heaven” (Svarloka) in the Manipūra Chakra, and in the Anāhata Chakra we are admitted to the level of the Saints (Maharloka). In the Vishuddhi Chakra we pass through the cosmic sphere of the beings of light (Janarloka). Through discipline and purification we acquire clarity of knowledge and wisdom in the Āgyā Chakra (Taparloka). In the Sahasrāra Chakra we finally enter the level of absolute truth and reality (Satyaloka)."

 

( 7 Lower chakras going to the  hell realms which many new age experts on the matter don't often mention and where we really do not want to land) 

 

"Atala  This chakra is located in the hips, it governs fear and lust.

Vitala  Located in the thighs, it governs anger and resentment.

Sutala Located in the knees, it governs jealousy.

Talatala Translated as 'under the bottom level', it is located in the calves, and it is a state of prolonged confusion and instinctive wilfulness.

Rasatala Located in the ankles, it is the centre of selfishness and pure animal nature.

Mahatala  Located in the feet, this is the dark realm 'without conscience', and inner blindness.

Patala  Located in the soles of the feet, this is the realm of malice, murder, torture and hatred, and in Hindu mythology it borders on the realm of Naraka, or Hell."

 

All the teachings say to find a teacher...

 

Very interesting but I'd always heard that Manipūra the root chakra related to fear. I think it's interesting how it's color is said to be red but also sometimes black and it's the lowest and then the kidneys color and the water element in the Chinese system it said to be blue but sometimes black and it's emotion is fear. So is fear the place that we begin?

[old3bob]

50 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

Very interesting but I'd always heard that Manipūra the root chakra related to fear. I think it's interesting how it's color is said to be red but also sometimes black and it's the lowest and then the kidneys color and the water element in the Chinese system it said to be blue but sometimes black and it's emotion is fear. So is fear the place that we begin?

 

In Vedic systems the Muladhara is known as the root chakra (and when working correctly is related to reason),  while the Manipura is the 3rd chakra above the navel.   There is some correlation among different systems/schools but most say it's better to concentrate on one  to begin with...and to be under the guidance of a qualified teacher thus not poking around here and there which can bring extra difficulties.  (since "normal" difficulties are usually more than enough in themselves)

Edited December 10, 2020 by old3bob

[Maddie]

8 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

In Vedic systems the Muladhara is known as the root chakra (and when working correctly is related to reason),  while the Manipura is the 3rd chakra above the navel.   There is some correlation among different systems/schools but most say it's better to concentrate on one  to begin with...and to be under the guidance of a qualified teacher thus not poking around here and there which can bring extra difficulties.  (since "normal" difficulties are usually more than enough in themselves)

 

Oops I meant to say Muladhara. 

 

Anyways in most systems, I've read about one of the root chakras colors is black and can relate to fear but as you say the more positive side can be reason. The Kidney/water element's color can also be black and its emotion is also fear but its virtue is wisdom which is very similar to reason. 

 

Next on the chakra system is the sacral chakra or Svādhishthāna which is related to sensual pleasure. It being the second chakra is also quite low and the kidneys store the sexual energy.

 

Moving up to the solar plexus chakra it is supposed to be about power. In the Chinese system, the next element in the generating sequence is wood which is the liver and it is also about power. It's called the general, and in the chakra system, the solar plexus is called the warrior.

 

Next in line is the heart chakra and in the Chinese system the fire element which is also the heart. 

Edited December 10, 2020 by dmattwads

[Apech]

12 hours ago, dmattwads said:

I realize this might sound very speculative and perhaps superstitious but I was wondering if anyone had any real knowledge or experience in dealing with protecting themselves from the dark side of spirituality such as from evil spirits, or curses and other such things? how would one recognize it being something like this as opposed to something else? And what are effective measures that can be taken to deal with it?

 

Hi,

 

This won't answer your question - but but the idea that there are malevolent forces, entities and so on is pretty much universal in all cultures apart from modern western ones.  A few years ago I met a muslim lady from Sri Lanka who said she regularly sent back to the old country (we were in the UK then) for a sheep or goat to be sacrificed to ward off evil spirits and the evil eye.  I was gobsmacked 'cos I assumed that Islam didn't allow this kind of thing.  When I moved to rural Portugal I found that in the village there was an old lady (she's over 100 now) who knew about herbs and did charms against the evil eye - which they call 'cobrante' = 'snake magic' - which is bad effects emanating from other people, some animals like snakes and lizards and so on which can make you ill.

 

Even in the Tibetan Buddhism which I practice - they make offerings (usually a kind of cake) and do ceremonies to appease hungry ghosts and demons of various kinds - the idea being if you offer up food etc. they will be satisfied and leave you alone.  The great tantric masters like Milarepa and so on regularly dealt with god-like beings and demons who opposed them - this was not meant 'symbolically' but as a real thing.

 

So I would predict that in whatever system you do this sort of thing will exist and if you ask around you'll get techniques for it - provided the teachers are not westerners - who either deny or get embarrassed by the subject

 

 

[old3bob]

5 hours ago, dmattwads said:

 

Oops I meant to say Muladhara. 

 

Anyways in most systems, I've read about one of the root chakras colors is black and can relate to fear but as you say the more positive side can be reason. The Kidney/water element's color can also be black and its emotion is also fear but its virtue is wisdom which is very similar to reason. 

 

Next on the chakra system is the sacral chakra or Svādhishthāna which is related to sensual pleasure. It being the second chakra is also quite low and the kidneys store the sexual energy.

 

Moving up to the solar plexus chakra it is supposed to be about power. In the Chinese system, the next element in the generating sequence is wood which is the liver and it is also about power. It's called the general, and in the chakra system, the solar plexus is called the warrior.

 

Next in line is the heart chakra and in the Chinese system the fire element which is also the heart. 

 

ok...as for some protection and before finding a qualified teacher  (or in them choosing you) there are a few universal mantras and prayers that are said to be safe for anyone to use, an obvious one being Om by itself.  The Eastern religions have many of these.  I like the Quan Yin prayers and also some of the Christian prayers from when I was younger even if that is mixing apples and oranges being that many of us from the west have such a past background.  (and being that Jesus is a very good and powerful golden soul who can help)

 

And then there are all the basic do's and don'ts to be careful about,  many of which most of our parents taught us and are common across most religions. (meant to keep us wholesome but which I did not follow in my younger years and thus had lots of "extra difficulties".  Then there are all the herbs, crystals, special symbols, etc..  that could help if properly used which again begs for a qualified teacher because if improperly used they could backfire badly.   I take it you already know a lot of this stuff and so like most of us it is a matter of practicing or "walking the talk".  Btw we do not need to read gobs of enlightened or esoteric texts and get overloaded or overextended.   Better if we go step by step and if that means only getting one or two things done instead of reading and conceptualizing about ten or twenty - which do you think will bring better results?   

 

Edited December 10, 2020 by old3bob

[Maddie]

50 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

So I would predict that in whatever system you do this sort of thing will exist and if you ask around you'll get techniques for it - provided the teachers are not westerners - who either deny or get embarrassed by the subject

 

 

 

In the past when asking the Western monks at the monastery near me for advice on this topic they just looked at me like I was nuts. 

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, dmattwads said:

 

In the past when asking the Western monks at the monastery near me for advice on this topic they just looked at me like I was nuts. 

 

those 7 lower chakras mentioned earlier are sign-posts to watch out for in ourselves and or in others, and thus guard against and  nip in the bud before they cascade...although I'd say anger if not slipping into rage and destruction is a normal emotion and can be used rightly.  (Like if someone is angry with you but up-front and honest about it to resolve whatever the issue is which is far better better than sulking or back-stabbing)  Btw. it helps to have others feedback or view but for a lot of this we don't need a monk, mystic  or master when it comes to us feeling, seeing and acting on things for ourselves.

Edited December 10, 2020 by old3bob

[thelerner]

FWIW, my tradition (Judaism) pretty much says, while it (curses, spirits, dark magic..) may be out there, if you leave it alone, it leaves you alone.  ie don't feed it.. ignore it and it'll go elsewhere.  Maybe not helpful but some is real, some is not (or rather self creations), and perhaps some is a combination. 

[Maddie]

12 minutes ago, thelerner said:

FWIW, my tradition (Judaism) pretty much says, while it (curses, spirits, dark magic..) may be out there, if you leave it alone, it leaves you alone.  ie don't feed it.. ignore it and it'll go elsewhere.  Maybe not helpful but some is real, some is not (or rather self creations), and perhaps some is a combination. 

 

I didn't realize your tradition was Judaism, but that is interesting as I think I'm in a place to perhaps take a fresh look (after a long time of not doing so) at the Abrahamic traditions again and see what they have to offer beyond the surface. Is there a specific type of Judaic practice you are a lineage of?

[thelerner]

4 hours ago, dmattwads said:

 

I didn't realize your tradition was Judaism, but that is interesting as I think I'm in a place to perhaps take a fresh look (after a long time of not doing so) at the Abrahamic traditions again and see what they have to offer beyond the surface. Is there a specific type of Judaic practice you are a lineage of?

no particular lineages.. From a mystical viewpoint.. I enjoy doing Abulafiah's Kabbalah or it's modern version as 'Ecstatic Kabbalah' from Rabbi David Cooper.  It's more sacred sounds then the complexity of what's usually considered Kabbalah.  Actually not too far from Shinto chanting I'd do during winter Misogi training or chanting done at an Ashram, though the meanings are more familiar.. ringing to my.. lineage.

 

Last year I took some classes in Mussar.  Traditional Jewish wisdom.. interesting for its Stoic resonance.  Exploring a virtue each month. Reading stories and philosophies on its positive and negative aspects.  Where one lands on its scale, too much, too little.  Where one needs to evolve to.  Intellectual and meditative practices on each virtue, to drive home the lessons.

 

Most days in the shower stall I'll chant Rawn Clark's YHVH canticle, which, while from the Hermetic tradition is in Hebrew and includes a piece of mantra favored by my favorite rabbi, Rabbi Nachman of Breslov.  Who was quite the mystic. 

 

Another Rabbi I favored just died,  Jonathon Sacks.  Brilliant man.  To honor him I'm reading his book Essays on Ethics: A Weekly Reading on the Jewish Bible.  An amazing sacred and humanist interpretation, which I'd consider a near impossible job, from a man as knowledgeable in philosophy and comparative religion as Jewish tomes.  You wouldn't expect it, but he'll slip in prefrontal cortex allowing this and limbic system creating that.  Quotes from DDJ as well as Alexis de Tocqueville.  Interesting erudite stuff, yet readable and useful.

 

 

 

[Maddie]

58 minutes ago, thelerner said:

no particular lineages.. From a mystical viewpoint.. I enjoy doing Abulafiah's Kabbalah or it's modern version as 'Ecstatic Kabbalah' from Rabbi David Cooper.  It's more sacred sounds then the complexity of what's usually considered Kabbalah.  Actually not too far from Shinto chanting I'd do during winter Misogi training or chanting done at an Ashram, though the meanings are more familiar.. ringing to my.. lineage.

 

Last year I took some classes in Mussar.  Traditional Jewish wisdom.. interesting for its Stoic resonance.  Exploring a virtue each month. Reading stories and philosophies on its positive and negative aspects.  Where one lands on its scale, too much, too little.  Where one needs to evolve to.  Intellectual and meditative practices on each virtue, to drive home the lessons.

 

Most days in the shower stall I'll chant Rawn Clark's YHVH canticle, which, while from the Hermetic tradition is in Hebrew and includes a piece of mantra favored by my favorite rabbi, Rabbi Nachman of Breslov.  Who was quite the mystic. 

 

Another Rabbi I favored just died,  Jonathon Sacks.  Brilliant man.  To honor him I'm reading his book Essays on Ethics: A Weekly Reading on the Jewish Bible.  An amazing sacred and humanist interpretation, which I'd consider a near impossible job, from a man as knowledgeable in philosophy and comparative religion as Jewish tomes.  You wouldn't expect it, but he'll slip in prefrontal cortex allowing this and limbic system creating that.  Quotes from DDJ as well as Alexis de Tocqueville.  Interesting erudite stuff, yet readable and useful.

 

 

 

 

That's actually very interesting, thanks for sharing!

[Nungali]

On 10/12/2020 at 3:32 PM, dmattwads said:

I realize this might sound very speculative and perhaps superstitious but I was wondering if anyone had any real knowledge or experience in dealing with protecting themselves from the dark side of spirituality such as from evil spirits, or curses and other such things? how would one recognize it being something like this as opposed to something else? And what are effective measures that can be taken to deal with it?

 

Its  going to depend on your tradition which approach you take .  Still there comes a time / level / 'realisation'   that recognises an essential 'same human pattern ' .    I promise not to go off on one of my anthropological raves      except to say this isn't just book learning  but also real life experience observation  and includes things as 'far apart'  as ancient Australian indigenous shamanism and modern ritual magick  ...   so I will just summarise  results ;

 

At first as one 'progresses along their path '  it appears, and it is helpful to assume' , that there  are dark forces that you will need protection against  ( and a valid system should provide or teach about that protection ) .  Methods vary from  banishing rituals , purifications, prayers, charms , etc . 

 

After a time one deals  with these forces by 'balancing opposites '   - but you are really working on  balancing the forces within yourself. Once that is done you can learn about  'projection'  and  'containment '  . Next you can balance , neutralise ,  'return to the Dao '  various forces. Then any forces can be taken inside yourself and balanced .  Further ,  you come to the realisation that  it is  all relative and there are  no good and bad forces .

 

After that you should be able to discern better about  that 'relativeness'  of  'good and bad forces' and using evocative principles  be able to 'examine' things better and respond appropriately  with any of the above .   That is , although you might  have achieved unity in realisation , you might decide to kick arse or banish anyway , due to circumstances         BUT  if one has not achieved the higher levels  don't jump to a higher mode of working  - dangerous .   That is , you can  work down from your level but don't work above it .

 

And yeah ,   some  nasties  might ju-ju you  ..... you never know ,  or  you  might have 'picked something up ' .

 

 

 

 

 

[Sketch]

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Its  going to depend on your tradition which approach you take .  Still there comes a time / level / 'realisation'   that recognises an essential 'same human pattern ' .    I promise not to go off on one of my anthropological raves      except to say this isn't just book learning  but also real life experience observation  and includes things as 'far apart'  as ancient Australian indigenous shamanism and modern ritual magick  ...   so I will just summarise  results ;

 

At first as one 'progresses along their path '  it appears, and it is helpful to assume' , that there  are dark forces that you will need protection against  ( and a valid system should provide or teach about that protection ) .  Methods vary from  banishing rituals , purifications, prayers, charms , etc . 

 

After a time one deals  with these forces by 'balancing opposites '   - but you are really working on  balancing the forces within yourself. Once that is done you can learn about  'projection'  and  'containment '  . Next you can balance , neutralise ,  'return to the Dao '  various forces. Then any forces can be taken inside yourself and balanced .  Further ,  you come to the realisation that  it is  all relative and there are  no good and bad forces .

 

After that you should be able to discern better about  that 'relativeness'  of  'good and bad forces' and using evocative principles  be able to 'examine' things better and respond appropriately  with any of the above .   That is , although you might  have achieved unity in realisation , you might decide to kick arse or banish anyway , due to circumstances         BUT  if one has not achieved the higher levels  don't jump to a higher mode of working  - dangerous .   That is , you can  work down from your level but don't work above it .

 

And yeah ,   some  nasties  might ju-ju you  ..... you never know ,  or  you  might have 'picked something up ' .

 

 

 

 

 

I'm currently reading "The Way of Demons: Shadow and opposition in Taoist Thought,  Ritual and Alchemy ", a new book out by Simon Bastian. It would be a better book if the author had read this post.

[idiot_stimpy]

 

The above book helped immensely. Whether its demons dragging you to hell or Angels leading you to heaven, they're just an appearance of the mind and left as they are. 

 

Other times, taking on the form of a wrathful deity helps.

 

Some of these things feed off fear. If you are fearful of them you give them power. One must realize they are actually subordinate to you. They want you to think they are powerful but this is just a bluff. Turn to face them. Look at them like you would stare someone down by looking at them intently. The void or infinite nature of mind is terrifying to them, like a black hole, it destroys everything.

 

Do not be afraid. Face them and have the courage of a warrior to charge forward.

Edited December 11, 2020 by idiot_stimpy

[old3bob]

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Its  going to depend on your tradition which approach you take .  Still there comes a time / level / 'realisation'   that recognises an essential 'same human pattern ' .    I promise not to go off on one of my anthropological raves      except to say this isn't just book learning  but also real life experience observation  and includes things as 'far apart'  as ancient Australian indigenous shamanism and modern ritual magick  ...   so I will just summarise  results ;

 

At first as one 'progresses along their path '  it appears, and it is helpful to assume' , that there  are dark forces that you will need protection against  ( and a valid system should provide or teach about that protection ) .  Methods vary from  banishing rituals , purifications, prayers, charms , etc . 

 

After a time one deals  with these forces by 'balancing opposites '   - but you are really working on  balancing the forces within yourself. Once that is done you can learn about  'projection'  and  'containment '  . Next you can balance , neutralise ,  'return to the Dao '  various forces. Then any forces can be taken inside yourself and balanced .  Further ,  you come to the realisation that  it is  all relative and there are  no good and bad forces .

 

After that you should be able to discern better about  that 'relativeness'  of  'good and bad forces' and using evocative principles  be able to 'examine' things better and respond appropriately  with any of the above .   That is , although you might  have achieved unity in realisation , you might decide to kick arse or banish anyway , due to circumstances         BUT  if one has not achieved the higher levels  don't jump to a higher mode of working  - dangerous .   That is , you can  work down from your level but don't work above it .

 

And yeah ,   some  nasties  might ju-ju you  ..... you never know ,  or  you  might have 'picked something up ' .

 

 

some good points given above.  Agreed with the implication that ultimately there is only one energy and at that purest level it is beyond good or evil...but as it sounds like you are implying, and make no mistake about it, that in the manifest worlds energy goes through filters, like light goes through a prism, which then results in good and evil forces at various/relative levels.  So the warning of  "BUT  if one has not achieved the higher levels  don't jump to a higher mode of working  - dangerous"    speaks to me of the idealistic and "dangerous" state of the unqualified  assuming everything is ok because energy is ultimately pure - so how could they be hurt (?)  

 

a simple math analogy:   +2 does not balance  -6 in an equation 

[Maddie]

I had started this thread because I was feeling oddly out of sorts and couldn't shake it with my usual Acupuncture and herbs approach. While going back to my text books I was reading how in the very earliest days the approach was to treat illness by dealing with evil spirits. The book was making it sound like evolving past this stage was a sign of progress but since the medical means that I knew of weren't doing anything I began to think of alternative explanations.

Yesterday I played 30 minutes of the vajrapani mantra and almost immediately began to feel wonderful.

 

[idiot_stimpy]

3 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

...I was feeling oddly out of sorts...

 

In my personal experience when the mind is raging or unsettled it can be beneficial to renew your efforts in continuing spiritual practice as it can lead to a deeper break through.

[Maddie]

11 minutes ago, idiot_stimpy said:

 

In my personal experience when the mind is raging or unsettled it can be beneficial to renew your efforts in continuing spiritual practice as it can lead to a deeper break through.

 

yeah I totally get that but in my case I was taking a break because I felt that I had been doing too many various mantras and that was making me feel bad in its own way so I was trying to make a pause to reset and detox and then pick it up again a little more thoughtfully but I guess life had a way of helping me choose one to pick up again LOL.

[sagebrush]

looking several people in the eyes now and wondering if you get tired of your spiritual bullshit because I sure do.

 

looking for money I suppose. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2020 by sagebrush

[idiot_stimpy]

2 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

yeah I totally get that but in my case I was taking a break because I felt that I had been doing too many various mantras and that was making me feel bad in its own way so I was trying to make a pause to reset and detox and then pick it up again a little more thoughtfully but I guess life had a way of helping me choose one to pick up again LOL.

 

My path is along the lines of non-effort or effortless meditation. Mantras can stir stuff up and if it becomes too much, I agree with you, its better to stop.  Celibacy and fasting can also be powerful to stir things up.

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, idiot_stimpy said:

 

My path is along the lines of non-effort or effortless meditation. Mantras can stir stuff up and if it becomes too much, I agree with you, its better to stop.  Celibacy and fasting can also be powerful to stir things up.

 

And I'm celibate so there you go LOL.