Indifference: How do you live without desires?

[Shad282]

Hey, lately been feeling indifferent to everything in life. I have been working for a long time on solving my shadows/problems of course they will never end but I reached a state where I kind of feel I lost desires to many things in life. I mean tho things look interesting like tech, other subjects and forms, but I don't feel like this inner WOWness or want to have it and such. Life is more like fine not much excitement, I don't feel happy but not sad, more indifferent, like I m here what's next?

 

I also feel sometimes, that I have let go so much of what made me who I am, what made things exciting and now stuck in a void like kind of 70% identity-less, maybe just a feeling.

 

How to move forward? what keeps you moving forward?

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, Shad282 said:

Hey, lately been feeling indifferent to everything in life. I have been working for a long time on solving my shadows/problems of course they will never end but I reached a state where I kind of feel I lost desires to many things in life. I mean tho things look interesting like tech, other subjects and forms, but I don't feel like this inner WOWness or want to have it and such. Life is more like fine not much excitement, I don't feel happy but not sad, more indifferent, like I m here what's next?

 

I also feel sometimes, that I have let go so much of what made me who I am, what made things exciting and now stuck in a void like kind of 70% identity-less, maybe just a feeling.

 

How to move forward? what keeps you moving forward?

 

Having been someone that spends a great deal of my time contemplating and practicing detachment I thought I'd take a stab at this.

 

So first of all what you are dealing with sounds like depression. Depression is not the same thing as detachment, it is not the same thing as having no desires in the ultimate sense and this is why. If one truly lets go of something they are at peace, but the fact that this indifference seems to bother you, or at the very least you want "the next thing" shows that there actually still is desire, a desire to not feel how you are feeling now. 

 

What you seem to be lacking is not desire, but direction. You want, but you don't know what you want. A tough place to be in for sure. If you had no desire in the ultimate sense you would be totally content feeling this way, for what would there be to want something other than what you feel now? 

 

That being said I would venture to say what you need to find is what it is that you actually do want. One thing seems for certain. You seem to have outgrown whatever it is that you used to like and desire, but have as of yet not found what it is that you do want. This is something that no one else can answer other than yourself. Hopefully realizing what the problem isn't may help you to understand what the problem actually is and hopefully that will help you to find the answer that you are looking for. 

[Shad282]

6 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

Having been someone that spends a great deal of my time contemplating and practicing detachment I thought I'd take a stab at this.

 

So first of all what you are dealing with sounds like depression. Depression is not the same thing as detachment, it is not the same thing as having no desires in the ultimate sense and this is why. If one truly lets go of something they are at peace, but the fact that this indifference seems to bother you, or at the very least you want "the next thing" shows that there actually still is desire, a desire to not feel how you are feeling now. 

 

What you seem to be lacking is not desire, but direction. You want, but you don't know what you want. A tough place to be in for sure. If you had no desire in the ultimate sense you would be totally content feeling this way, for what would there be to want something other than what you feel now? 

 

That being said I would venture to say what you need to find is what it is that you actually do want. One thing seems for certain. You seem to have outgrown whatever it is that you used to like and desire, but have as of yet not found what it is that you do want. This is something that no one else can answer other than yourself. Hopefully realizing what the problem isn't may help you to understand what the problem actually is and hopefully that will help you to find the answer that you are looking for. 

 

I agree with what you said, what i m looking for is direction, but I m not sure if it is going to be through a want/desire/need.

I need something to motivate me forward something more than the stuff that are eternal, like products or sensations...  something that is really meaningful that sets direction? but why do I need something? can't i just flow without a direction?

[Maddie]

24 minutes ago, Shad282 said:

 

I agree with what you said, what i m looking for is direction, but I m not sure if it is going to be through a want/desire/need.

I need something to motivate me forward something more than the stuff that are eternal, like products or sensations...  something that is really meaningful that sets direction? but why do I need something? can't i just flow without a direction?

 

Very good, you have the right idea. 

 

In the ultimate sense what you are getting at is exactly what the Buddha said in his four noble truths. 

 

1. There is suffering

2. It is caused by desire, which is caused by ignorance

3. It is possible to end this suffering 

4. There is an eight-fold path to end suffering ....

 

So yes the idea is to not need, desire, or want products or sensations in order to be content, BUT we also need to realize where we currently are realistically in the present moment. That being said if you realize what you seem to realize and want something to motivate you forward then perhaps you could consider making letting go of wanting, being the thing you want. Letting go of desire as the thing you desire. Letting go of motivation as your motivation. 

 

Here's the tricky part, how do you let go of something by grasping it? You can't at least not directly, so what is one to do? This is where the fourth noble truth comes in, the eight-fold path.

 

1. Right View

2. Right Intention

3. Right Speech

4. Right Action

5. Right Livelihood 

6. Right Effort

7. Right Mindfulness

8. Right Concentration

 

Edited December 12, 2020 by dmattwads

[liminal_luke]

Hi Shad282,

 

This thread reminds me very much of a similar thread you started some time back.  Do you know the one I mean?  Some Bums -- I think I was one of them -- speculated that you might be depressed.  Spotless, if I remember correctly, said what you were going through was not depression but awakening.  I mention this in case that old thread and the responses in it might have resonance for you now.

[dwai]

Hi Shad, 

 

Who have you let go of? That which you let go of, was that you at all? 
 

All that’s happening is you’ve lost the impetus to act and react in a certain way, because those things you “gave up” are familiar. If you look deeper, you’ll see that “you” are unaffected by it — only your mind trying to hold on to the ghost of a memory.  

Edited December 12, 2020 by dwai

[Shad282]

9 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Hi Shad282,

 

This thread reminds me very much of a similar thread you started some time back.  Do you know the one I mean?  Some Bums -- I think I was one of them -- speculated that you might be depressed.  Spotless, if I remember correctly, said what you were going through was not depression but awakening.  I mention this in case that old thread and the responses in it might have resonance for you now.

 

Yes, forgot that I have posted similar topic 2 years ago. I m not sure if it is depression or this situation is leading to a depression while in itself is not? Like for example even at work, I find myself having interest in many things but also in nothing, and I can excel and do amazing stuff in most of fields, but yet this is not what i want, especially when it becomes fixed. I have changed many departments in 3 years and all departments want me to work with them, but yet I feel myself everywhere but also nowhere.

 

I feel sometimes that the issue might be between shifting the perspective between micro and macro level. for example, on a micro level, I do love people and their issues, Animals, and feel compassion and want to help, but when i think in a macro level as a whole, spiritual wise, like energy and oneness and all, the micro level become kind of pointless and useless... like rather than feeling compassion toward someone suffering, I feel like, why taking it seriously, it is just a reality without any real purpose, it is like a game, you are just believing it is real, if you die or suffer it does not really matter.

 

it is like the micro level render this reality exciting, while the macro renders it useless like void/nothingness/kind of nihilism. I m not sure if this a kind of consciousness fragmentation between myself before awakening and after, and struggle to find harmony between these two and maybe this conflict is causing indifference that's causing depression.

 

 

[idiot_stimpy]

In a previous post you said you meditate.

 

Can I ask why do you meditate and what is the end game goal you are hoping to achieve by undertaking this spiritual practice?

[Shad282]

13 minutes ago, idiot_stimpy said:

In a previous post you said you meditate.

 

Can I ask why do you meditate and what is the end game goal you are hoping to achieve by undertaking this spiritual practice?

well it started when i was young around 10 yo, when my friend drew the shabda brahman symbol on sand, and i started learning more about it, and psi energy balls, and i worked on abilities to heal and i have my hands vibrating at time... then I learned more about spirituality and landed on meditation, which mostly was around vipassana, and scanning the body, and enhancing awareness focus and i felt a lot better and reached a high peak one time where everything around me felt so vibrating and food tasted so good, but got shot down by friends and family for being crazy. then got back but not as that high peak.

 

I meditate now to refine my focus and wake up from losing myself in the micro level of life, kind of like stabilize and restore harmony, especially that where i live it is a huge struggle every day.

 

I do wish to get back to that high peak i reached once, but no attachment to it anyways. but it is nice to live without worry and trust life and be at peace regardless of anything.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Shad282

[freeform]

My response is biased because it's the path I'm on...

 

But meditation on its own often leads to this state you're describing. It's a common occurrence.

 

From my perspective what's 'missing' is Qi.

 

The Daoist approach focuses on finding the form within the formless (and the formless within the form).

 

From that perspective, you're simply stuck in the formless - a very 'yin' state - and you can't find the form... which is the yang spark (or light) of your original spirit.

 

Qi is the catalyst between form and formless - it's the intermediary between your physical existence and your spirit. From my perspective - this is the missing ingredient for you.

 

Daoist Qigong, Neigong and Neidan are the processes by which you generate Qi and use it to create transformation... leading to enlightenment and further...

[Maddie]

1 hour ago, Shad282 said:

well it started when i was young around 10 yo, when my friend drew the shabda brahman symbol on sand, and i started learning more about it, and psi energy balls, and i worked on abilities to heal and i have my hands vibrating at time... then I learned more about spirituality and landed on meditation, which mostly was around vipassana, and scanning the body, and enhancing awareness focus and i felt a lot better and reached a high peak one time where everything around me felt so vibrating and food tasted so good, but got shot down by friends and family for being crazy. then got back but not as that high peak.

 

I meditate now to refine my focus and wake up from losing myself in the micro level of life, kind of like stabilize and restore harmony, especially that where i live it is a huge struggle every day.

 

I do wish to get back to that high peak i reached once, but no attachment to it anyways. but it is nice to live without worry and trust life and be at peace regardless of anything.

 

You might want to consider taking a break from meditation. If you look at the eightfold path number eight, concentration is meditation. It's generally the last step on the path and if one skips steps they tend to have problems.

 

Westerners have a tendency to want to start at the end.

Edited December 12, 2020 by dmattwads

[C T]

If all the great works of art were dependent on the artists being fully functional before they could 'flow and create' there'd be very little masterpieces for the world to marvel at. A lot of these artists are really screwed up, dysfunctional & neurotic - therein lies their greatest, most brilliant inspirations. The thing that sets them apart, really, is simply that they do not confuse dysfunction with finding meaning. Very often, their creative juices peak at the height of utter meaninglessness. Nevertheless, most of these artists, and many really talented performers as well, they don't hang around for too long - they burn bright but the brightness consumes them, like shooting stars. They were unable to turn that brilliance within. Spiritually, they were not able to glow from the inside out. They knew, from the 'trips' they often took, that there's something infinitely more profound and permanent waiting to be discovered and integrated that will lift them up out of the shadows, but they were afraid of the light. In the shadows, they found comfort in familiarity. 

[Michael Sternbach]

On 12.12.2020 at 1:30 AM, Shad282 said:

Hey, lately been feeling indifferent to everything in life. I have been working for a long time on solving my shadows/problems of course they will never end but I reached a state where I kind of feel I lost desires to many things in life. I mean tho things look interesting like tech, other subjects and forms, but I don't feel like this inner WOWness or want to have it and such. Life is more like fine not much excitement, I don't feel happy but not sad, more indifferent, like I m here what's next?

 

I also feel sometimes, that I have let go so much of what made me who I am, what made things exciting and now stuck in a void like kind of 70% identity-less, maybe just a feeling.

 

How to move forward? what keeps you moving forward?

 

Hi Shady

 

Short answer: My inner visions.

[Maddie]

On 12/12/2020 at 6:10 AM, Shad282 said:

well it started when i was young around 10 yo, when my friend drew the shabda brahman symbol on sand, and i started learning more about it, and psi energy balls, and i worked on abilities to heal and i have my hands vibrating at time... then I learned more about spirituality and landed on meditation, which mostly was around vipassana, and scanning the body, and enhancing awareness focus and i felt a lot better and reached a high peak one time where everything around me felt so vibrating and food tasted so good, but got shot down by friends and family for being crazy. then got back but not as that high peak.

 

I meditate now to refine my focus and wake up from losing myself in the micro level of life, kind of like stabilize and restore harmony, especially that where i live it is a huge struggle every day.

 

I do wish to get back to that high peak i reached once, but no attachment to it anyways. but it is nice to live without worry and trust life and be at peace regardless of anything.

 

I've found at times when I get "stuck" that doing the Manjushri mantra even just a little bit helps.

 

Usually at first after doing it I feel even more confused, but I think that's due to you have to unlearn what you think you know in order to be teachable.

[Shad282]

On 12/12/2020 at 5:09 AM, liminal_luke said:

Hi Shad282,

 

This thread reminds me very much of a similar thread you started some time back.  Do you know the one I mean?  Some Bums -- I think I was one of them -- speculated that you might be depressed.  Spotless, if I remember correctly, said what you were going through was not depression but awakening.  I mention this in case that old thread and the responses in it might have resonance for you now.

 

Wanted to say, that I m feeling this way at almost the same period of the year. hahaha, but all the year it was going good for me, but this occurred again now, when i tried to let go to one of the goals i have added to myself as i became too obsessed and attached to it and now i m going through the feeling of being lost and what to live for in this reality if I try and can let go of everything in this life?

 

As mentioned in a post on this thread, lacking a sense of direction, if you let go of what you averse and what you attach to, then where to go? what to achieve?

 

[Nungali]

On 12/12/2020 at 11:30 AM, Shad282 said:

Hey, lately been feeling indifferent to everything in life. I have been working for a long time on solving my shadows/problems of course they will never end but I reached a state where I kind of feel I lost desires to many things in life. I mean tho things look interesting like tech, other subjects and forms, but I don't feel like this inner WOWness or want to have it and such. Life is more like fine not much excitement, I don't feel happy but not sad, more indifferent, like I m here what's next?

 

I also feel sometimes, that I have let go so much of what made me who I am, what made things exciting and now stuck in a void like kind of 70% identity-less, maybe just a feeling.

 

How to move forward? what keeps you moving forward?

 

'Energized enthusiasm ' !

 

It puts you in a 'higher vibration' , energy ,  more so than normal . It can keep you going and overpower the need to eat, sleep , etc .  Maybe work on something non stop for three days  even .  Of course , you still have a limit , but it is extended  you still need a recovery  but the time may be shorter than the  usual period.

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Shad282 said:

 

Wanted to say, that I m feeling this way at almost the same period of the year. hahaha, but all the year it was going good for me, but this occurred again now, when i tried to let go to one of the goals i have added to myself as i became too obsessed and attached to it and now i m going through the feeling of being lost and what to live for in this reality if I try and can let go of everything in this life?

 

As mentioned in a post on this thread, lacking a sense of direction, if you let go of what you averse and what you attach to, then where to go? what to achieve?

 

 

straight up the middle path   ( between attachment and aversion ) .

 

Boy !  In my past did I put away some alcohol !     Now , I have a huge cocktail bar and rarely touch it . Occasionally I will have a drink, maybe .  IF I REALLY CHOOSE TO .   I am not averse to that and avoiding it , and I am no longer attached to it .

 

In other words , you get to a state where REAL choice may be possible .

[Nungali]

.... but then again, one might feel this lacks the adventure and excitement  of loosing oneself and not being in control. *

 

 

So I am wondering how old you are , as this also can be 'an age thing' .

 

 

 

Young guy ;  'Go Baby ! '

 

Old guy :  " I ain't getting on that thing with her ! "

[Michael Sternbach]

Hi Shad

 

For me, the question should be rephrased: "How do I live with my desires?"

 

🙀😅😉

[Shad282]

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

'Energized enthusiasm ' !

 

It puts you in a 'higher vibration' , energy ,  more so than normal . It can keep you going and overpower the need to eat, sleep , etc .  Maybe work on something non stop for three days  even .  Of course , you still have a limit , but it is extended  you still need a recovery  but the time may be shorter than the  usual period.

On this reality level, I do have interest in things in life, and I work on creating stuff and such, but they are not something to exist for. I mean it is stuff I enjoy better than other things in this reality, but does this reality mean anything to me? Not really.

 

I m 29 yo

[Nungali]

On 28/11/2021 at 11:00 PM, Shad282 said:

On this reality level, I do have interest in things in life, and I work on creating stuff and such, but they are not something to exist for. I mean it is stuff I enjoy better than other things in this reality, but does this reality mean anything to me? Not really.

 

I m 29 yo

 

Oh , I see what you are searching for !   I get that from 'just' being alive .

 

Of course, there is a path to this state , I have found it is not a normal state for the westerner , but  is common in indigenous societies that have been  able to preserve their culture and integrity  ( and not having their environment and people being fucked over . )

 

If I may ... without offence , they would say you have  ( not lost ) but 'misplaced your soul ' .

 

This 'soul' is not what most may think it is, it is more related to your fundamental and particular purpose for being here . In other words , its related to the 'True Will' ¹ or   ' Khvarenah ' ² ..   this soul is generated , strengthened, and fulfilled  by following your  Kavarenah.

Spoiler

INTRODUCTION

 

[ Background :  I have been studying western magical tradition for over  50 years  ( starting as a mid teen ) . That has included extensive practice, including various positions in well established magical 'communities' and initiation school .  I feel there are important subjects that relate to this  and lead to deeper and further comprehension of the subject , including philosophy, history , comparative religion and  especially anthropology - the last two , complimented by course (in my 20's ) at Sydney  University .  I  also have some familiarity, study and practice in some  eastern traditions  . ]

 

One of my fields of interest (and practice ... as I believe one must immerse oneself into a system to some extent , if studying a system )  has been practices associated with Alister Crowley's system . I have been curious as to its origins  .  Also the origins beyond where he got things from ; eg, he took a lot of Eliphas levi's stuff , but where did Levi get it from ?  I am not talking about standard magical practice here , those origins are fairly well known , I am talking more about a set of core principles that have become know as 'Thelema' and attributed to Crowley  ... but they come from elsewhere ... Crowley reworded them and tried to put them in modern context . These are the gems scattered throughout Crowley's work and , some claim,  the sparks of his genius .   Although the chap often admitted 'standing on the shoulders of others ' his central doctrine and premises - the most important in his system should not really be attributed to him at all  .  

 

In my anthropological studies and comparative religious studies  I became attracted to Zoroastrianism , I suppose originally because it was so 'obscure' . Its an interesting prehistoric religion, based on ancient precursors ,  and on par with ancient Vedanta .  It evolved  right through  ( and at times going 'underground ' / 'lost to history' to later emerge in various places , where its high principles where  evident in society - very advanced , progressive and libertarian societies  - for their time  ;  the equality of women , the respect for  others religious beliefs , a blending of cultures instead of an idea of  cultural oppression , Cyrus 'The Great' ,  the return f the Jews to their homeland , with a repayment of what had been sacked from them in the captivity  and assistance in rebuilding their temple .... things like that , that where virtually unheard of at the time  , or later .i

 

There is an obvious historical connection here.  A class of Zoroastrian priests , specialists in various arts , including astronomy and astrology are known as 'Magi' and that is the root  word that magic and magician is drawn from .   They had influence into 'The Alexandrian School' in Egypt  ; a 'melting pot' of knowledge that influenced later Greek thought  and eventually a 'Golden Age ' in Islam  through  Harran  ( which seems to have inherited the Alexandrian tradition  .... after it was oppressed and the  Alexandrian Library had been  sacked  and burnt in various stages  ( Harran has an amazing history ) .

 

Also I became interested  in and studied  related archeology  and geography  ..... what got me interested in that connection ( previously unrealized ) was I came upon a bonafide 'lost civilization  ' that has only been known about , in the west , since around the 1970s .  I think that is pretty amazing  ! 

 

https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/central-asias-lost-civilization

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria–Margiana_Archaeological_Complex

 

or otherwise known as 'The Oxus Civilization ' 

 

It has only recently been theorized  that the old 'myto-historical'  era of the  old Iranian Era  of kings , known as the Pishdadians   relates to this  civilization and more specifically , to its penultimate manifestation ' Yaz Culture ' . 

 

 

- then there is a gap in the record .   Their civilization, at least in that area, seems to have collapsed , the moved westward and the next we hear of them is their emergence out of  the northern  areas of the Zagros mountains  in Iran , in  coalition with Iranian tribes fighting Assyrian  expansion and domination (and rather nasty oppression ) from the Mesopotamian  Plain  up into Iranian mountains and plateau . 

 

As I studied all this I began to see  connections , then I got more heavily into Zoroastrian study, focusing on its core principles and meaning and continually found principles    virtually exactly the same that Crowley was outlining . Him and others similar at the eime often recommended reading  the 'Chaldean Oracles' , a bridging source , it appears . Also reading of the world's scripture was in Crowley's curriculum , and he certainly included the Avestas . 

 

One thing that made me appreciate  the value of  Zoroastrianism     was a simple translation of a word   that can mean  many things including God / Gods / dine beings etc  ( ie, something 'outward' ) to mean , simply 'mind '    and this is also an accepted translation  of that term   ( 'Mainyu' )   but if one just uses mind  as a translation the whole system opens up into something rather remarkable . 

 

I hope to use this thread , as time goes on, to list and compare these principles with   Crowley's modern attempt at at bringing them to light ... in popular form . Also to bring the principles to light , in their old form , as I think this is very valuable information to us . 

 

Crowley seems to  have tried  to extol these core principles in  a modern form  ( leaving out intricate parts of law , appropriate to old times   and certain complexities  - thats valid , and that is what I will be doing here , but I think he missed important things  and added a LOT of his own ' baggage '  - I hope to avoid that here .  My 'redaction' , if it would be called anything  would be a type of 'Neo-Zoroastrianism'  ( and actually the seeds of such other and similar movements are underway in other parts of the world  ( like the  Iranian    women's liberation movement   eg . 

 

https://www.persepolis.nu/queens.htm

 

 and  with some elements in some Central Asian countries  that are fed up with the modern problems associated with Islam  and fanaticism  ( Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Tjaikistan )

 

One reason I think Crowley is significant  is his influence on modern magic and practice  .... for people with  such 'obscure' interests , this should be a huge 'eye opener' . For people with no interest in him , they might still find value in this  focus on certain Zoroastrian principles .

 

1 .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Wil

 

 

2.  (Extracts)

 

• The khvarenah is the archetype of the person one can grow to if allowed to grow to the limit of her or his capacity in grace, that is, in keeping with the fravashi and thereby in keeping with Divine purpose. In the Avesta, the khvarenah is frequently described as 'Mazda-datem', i.e. God-given or God-gifted.
• The khvarenah is also a person's higher calling - their meaning in life [the Middle Persian Pahlavi rending of khvarenah is khvesh-kari meaning own-work or own-purpose (in keeping with Divine purpose i.e. the higher calling)].
• Every human being is endowed with natural talents that can be harnessed and developed to achieve one's highest potential or one's higher calling [sometimes thought of as one's latent destiny in life]. Alternatively, through choice, these talents can be employed to achieve base ambitions.
• A spenta mainyu - a brilliant, positive, constructive, and beneficent spirit - allows a person to perceive their higher calling.
• An angra mainyu - a gloomy, negative, destructive, and harmful spirit - leaves a person vulnerable to base ambitions.
• A spenta mainyu enables a person to choose asha, the path of goodness, and pursue her or his calling without expectation of reward.
• The khvarenah is specific to a person and is different for each person.
• When all human beings realize their calling or full potential in grace, the world will attain vahishtem anghuim & frasho-kereti - the ultimate and ideal future existence, a heaven on earth.
• Human beings often limit or loose themselves. In either case, they do not achieve their full potential or capacity.
• While to some extent, a person's lot in life is determined by birth and circumstance, a person can find her or his latent khvarenah or calling by envisioning the person one aspires to become in grace, and then taking steps to realize the khvarenah despite daunting obstacles and adversity.
• To loose oneself is to loose one's khvarenah..
• The source of the khvarenah is said to be the divine spiritual light that is eternal and which casts no shadow (Denkard Madon 347.6-7).
• A person's realization of her or his khvarenah is evidenced by a halo (farr in Persian), glowing brightly over her or his head - radiant as the sun ( perceived by the spiritual eye and senses.) The opposite of the light of a halo is darkness - like a dark cloud hanging over someone.
• A person's realization of her or his khvarenah cloaks that person with the aura of charisma and grace,
• Khvarenah and the resulting charisma enable leadership that does not rely on authority.

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/overview/index.htm#fravashi

 

Building this particular part of your psyche  with some other parts , enables you to continue on after death as well  ( See ' United Fravashi" in the link above . )

Edited December 1, 2021 by Nungali