Is internal Kungfu knowledge deliberately hidden?

[freeform]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

I’ll let these digs go...attribute to your irritated mind  

Not a dig at all. You’re very open about your amalgamation of different paths into something quite individual - so why not Dwaism as short? 

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

Why not focus on what you need to become instead? What I can become won’t really help you  

I also am not talking about ‘you’ in particular. ‘You’ in my original message is another way of saying ‘one’. I’m not too concerned about you in particular  

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

But the physical is rooted in the nonphysical. 

Indeed. It’s considered an expression or manifestation of Dao. In this way there’s no separation. In the same way that separating the trunk, the branches and the root of a tree - it’s no longer a tree, it’s dead wood.

 

To a Daoist it’s never the case that one is more important than the other.

To a more ‘heavenly’ tradition - it may well be the case that heaven is more important than earth. 

 

3 hours ago, dwai said:

Names and forms

 

You see the physical as ‘names and forms’. A Daoist sees the formless within the form - and the form within the formless. This is the very basis for alchemy (both internal and external).

 

3 hours ago, dwai said:

So a trained mind can handle complexity and remain un-scattered? 

If you’re adding ‘names’ - that’s a mental abstraction - so you’re moving away from form - and towards the formless.
 

Maybe that’s why you’re confused by complexity? You’re naming instead of being present? 
 

Physicality has form but not a name.
 

If you’re naming, you’re no longer on the physical - you’re in your head.
 

3 hours ago, dwai said:

Would that involve multitasking?

 

Your acquired mind adds the name... try to become aware of too many names and you’ll certainly get confused. 
 

Use the type of awareness that doesn’t name - then turn that awareness to an object - then be patient - and exquisite inherent complexity may begin to reveal itself. But start naming - and you’re no longer aware of form - you’re mired in mental abstractions. 
 

3 hours ago, dwai said:

The truth requires no external validation however

I can see you believe that  

[liminal_luke]

...

Edited December 17, 2020 by liminal_luke

[dwai]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Not a dig at all. You’re very open about your amalgamation of different paths into something quite individual - so why not Dwaism as short? 
 

I just see the truth irrespective of the label , call it what pleases your heart  

Quote

 

I also am not talking about ‘you’ in particular. ‘You’ in my original message is another way of saying ‘one’. I’m not too concerned about you in particular

I can see how that shows  

Quote

Indeed. It’s considered an expression or manifestation of Dao. In this way there’s no separation. In the same way that separating the trunk, the branches and the root of a tree - it’s no longer a tree, it’s dead wood.

 

To a Daoist it’s never the case that one is more important than the other.

To a more ‘heavenly’ tradition - it may well be the case that heaven is more important than earth. 

And then there are those traditions for whom heaven is right here, right now — where ever you are. 

Quote

 

 

You see the physical as ‘names and forms’. A Daoist sees the formless within the form - and the form within the formless. This is the very basis for alchemy (both internal and external).

Yes it’s important to see form and the underlying reality that produces the form. If you do see it,  that’s good for you. Sometimes words used indicate otherwise...

Quote

If you’re adding ‘names’ - that’s a mental abstraction - so you’re moving away from form - and towards the formless.
 

Maybe that’s why you’re confused by complexity? You’re naming instead of being present? 

I’m not confused by anything. I just like to cut through noise to the truth. 

Quote

Physicality has form but not a name

If you’re naming, you’re no longer on the physical - you’re in your head.

Thats not a correct view imho. Name and form only appear in the phenomenal (physical or not). 

Quote

 

Your acquired mind adds the name... try to become aware of too many names and you’ll certainly get confused. 
 

Use the type of awareness that doesn’t name - then turn that awareness to an object - then be patient - and exquisite inherent complexity may begin to reveal itself. But start naming - and you’re no longer aware of form - you’re mired in mental abstractions. 

You don’t need to do any of that, just recognize the underlying being that illuminates names and forms. The underlying being is simple — if you know it,  names and forms will become simple too. Without it, all you can do is see names and forms. No Ned to see any complexity, simply be. 

Quote

I can see you believe that  

it’s not a belief — it is directly known — just have to recognize the underlying Being (Is-ness) —  All that appears only appears in awareness. Simple  

[Bindi]

 

I can see the logic of believing I am not my physical body nor my subtle body, and I can see how this belief will logically lead to the belief that developing the subtle body is a waste of time. It’s actually quite a hard belief to dispute once the first premise is taken on. 

I guess the alternative is to say that I am actually my physical body, and I am also my subtle body, I am all of it (I include my spirit as part of the subtle me). This premise certainly leads in a different direction, because both of these levels become valuable. 
 

In my experience I have found that following what my spirit wants seems to lead to the latter perspective. My subtle body is slowly developed, and my physical body is used in various ways to affect my subtle energies. The result of all this development so far is that I now feel happier, but also I have developed (and continue to develop) the ability to heal on both the physical and the subtle level. Of course this result would be meaningless if we are not the physical or subtle layers, but it has value if the physical and subtle is all that we are. 
 

 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Bindi

[freeform]

7 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

 

I can see the logic of believing I am not my physical body

 

Some traditions get stuck with their spiritual logic as a substitute for direct insight... normally evidenced by all the mental gymnastics and semantic trickery that’s necessary.

 

7 hours ago, Bindi said:

I am actually my physical body, and I am also my subtle bod

indeed. No separation. Form within formless - and formlessness within form.

[Sketch]

I am realizing that a certain closed mouth is another thing I need to cultivate along with my practice, even at close quarters.  Points of practice that came up at the breakfast table have not always lead to desired results when my wife has tried them out In the context of her own practices. A completely different set of disciplines than my own. Other things I've already experienced ( Unlocked?) could be quite damaging out of context.

Edited December 19, 2020 by Sketch

[anshino23]

"TO KNOW, TO DARE, TO WILL, TO KEEP SILENCE–such are the four words of the Magus, inscribed upon the four symbolical forms of the sphinx.” ~ Eliphas Lévi 

[exorcist_1699]

What kind of things you deal  with determines what kind of a mind you need to have  . If you deal with ordinary things made of molecules  in daily life , you use ordinary  logical , analytic thinking ; if you deal with  sub-particle like quantum or electromagnetic field ,say  light , then your mind has to change .

 

Similarly  if you deal with things like qi and shen , you  use another special kind of mind in which logical and  analytical thinking  no longer be the dominating way , quite the contrary ,  intuition , or a series of  intuitions , becomes the main skill you need to master .

 

Regarding  Neidan , there is no secret or hidden key that has to hide in Xing gong  , it can be  stated clearly  . It is the same as your explaining  any law of physics to your students or apostles. Make it clear and precise , even in mathematical forms .  However,   Xing gong ( skills/ practices ) does have its unique characteristics  :

 

1) It is level dependent  ;  it means not having reached that level of spiritual ability, then no matter how clear your  sifu talks about it  , you can not understand and your imagination of it likely be  useless or not beneficial .

 

2) Only the basic principles should be explained clearly , further describing its subtleties (status or layer)  does not help , but  smother your students/apostles from reaching them  as their expectations ( now become attachments) prevent them  from happening.  Such a phenomenon hardly exists in any other discipline of science or technology .

 

3) It is even more ethical than what we know in science :  Only those ways are pure , simple and ethical ( not hurting others, be beneficial to others..etc ) can  succeed. Evil ways hardly work or make you proceed to high level .

It is in Meng gong that there are hidden keys or secrets.

 

 

Edited December 21, 2020 by exorcist_1699

[Miffymog]

Brief reply

13 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

What kind of things you deal  with determines what kind of a mind you need to have  . If you deal with ordinary things made of molecules  in daily life , you use ordinary  logical , analytic thinking ; if you deal with  sub-particle like quantum or electromagnetic field ,say  light , then your mind has to change .

 

Similarly  if you deal with things like qi and shen , you  use another special kind of mind in which logical and  analytical thinking  no longer be the dominating way , quite the contrary ,  intuition , or a series of  intuitions , becomes the main skill you need to master .

 

Regarding  Neidan , there is no secret or hidden key that has to hide in Xing gong  , it can be  stated clearly  . It is the same as your explaining  any law of physics to your students or apostles. Make it clear and precise , even in mathematical forms .  However,   Xing gong ( skills/ practices ) does have its unique characteristics  :

 

1) It is level dependent  ;  it means not having reached that level of spiritual ability, then no matter how clear your  sifu talks about it  , you can not understand and your imagination of it likely be  useless or not beneficial .

 

2) Only the basic principles should be explained clearly , further describing its subtleties (status or layer)  does not help , but  smother your students/apostles from reaching them  as their expectations ( now become attachments) prevent them  from happening.  Such a phenomenon hardly exists in any other discipline of science or technology .

 

3) It is even more ethical than what we know in science :  Only those ways are pure , simple and ethical ( not hurting others, be beneficial to others..etc ) can  succeed. Evil ways hardly work or make you proceed to high level .

It is in Meng gong that there are hidden keys or secrets.

 

 

 

Interesting post, just a quick reply

 

Point One - this applies to many other disciplines as well.

 

Point Two - this also applies to other skills.

 

Point Three - hmmm, now here there is divergence depending on the discipline, some will not allow progress without virtue, others will.

 

Edited December 21, 2020 by Miffymog
edited loads due to be being drunk when written ... opps

[Small Fur]

 

On 12/11/2020 at 8:01 PM, dwai said:

One western internal kungfu teacher claims, and I’ve heard/seen many claim that traditional senior masters have deliberately hidden  the secrets of internal martial arts from western/modern students for reasons such as —

• xenophobia (or borderline version of it thereof) 
• Greed (lead you on so you pay more money) 
• Testing the sincerity of the student

and the list goes on and on.

 

My experience has been the opposite. The “secret” is not a secret at all. Just that we as modern people have a tendency to overcomplicate things, expecting complexity and looking for it every where.  My teachers have all given me the straight scoop, but initially I couldn’t believe that things are as simple as they have described. Instead of looking for physics, biology, anatomy, etc etc in the internal arts, if students simply listen to what the teachers say, the knowledge is directly and experientially available.

 

what do you all think?

 

 

 

 

How do we know who is a true teacher? What makes someone a true student?

 

 

Every human is field of energy that originates from Nothing. Any student at any moment can see through a teacher and realize truth.

 

A student whose mind is mundane observes falsity and cannot discern whether a teacher is true. 

A student that sees deeply can see through the falsity within a teacher.

 

A student who is obscured will sit before a true teacher and will create an infinite number of illusions. 

A student who sees truly will sit before a true teacher and see through them to realize the Tao.

 

A true student who is a true teacher sits before all people and sees the Tao through all being.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2020 by Small Fur

[Small Fur]

2 hours ago, Small Fur said:

 

 

How do we know who is a true teacher? What makes someone a true student?

 

 

Every human is field of energy that originates from Nothing. Any student at any moment can see through a teacher and realize truth.

 

A student whose mind is mundane observes falsity and cannot discern whether a teacher is true. 

The student that sees deeply can see through the falsity within a teacher.

 

A student who is obscured will sit before a true teacher and will create an infinite number of illusions. 

A student who sees truly will sit before a true teacher and see through them to realize the Tao.

 

A true student who is a true teacher sits before all people and sees the Tao through all being.

 

 

 

 

 

OP Question:  Is internal kungfu  knowledge deliberately hidden?

 

My answer given above directly answers your question in a totality of breath and depth.

But in case a more specific answer would benefit some, it is this:

 

People who dwell in secrets think things can be hidden.
People who dwell in the sacred understand what can be seen.

[Cleansox]

On 2020-12-17 at 10:45 PM, dwai said:

 

You don’t need to do any of that, just recognize the underlying being that illuminates names and forms. The underlying being is simple — if you know it,  names and forms will become simple too. Without it, all you can do is see names and forms. No Ned to see any complexity, simply be. 

It's all about from which perspective one look at things, isn't it? 

[dwai]

Just now, Cleansox said:

It's all about from which perspective one look at things, isn't it? 

Of course. One is from a perspective of veiling and the other from the perspective of wisdom.

 

It’s not a matter of interpretation however...no matter who claims otherwise.

 

It’s like this — once you directly cognize it, it makes complete sense. Till you can directly cognize it, there are only imaginations/theories/conceptions abound about it. 

[Scholar]

There is no "internal kung fu" that works in a fight. Xu Xiadong is proving it by defeating big internal masters with no effort at all

[Cleansox]

23 hours ago, dwai said:

Of course. One is from a perspective of veiling and the other from the perspective of wisdom.

 

It’s not a matter of interpretation however...no matter who claims otherwise.

 

It’s like this — once you directly cognize it, it makes complete sense. Till you can directly cognize it, there are only imaginations/theories/conceptions abound about it. 

In the context of internal kung fu and other similar arts, why does students stay so long with teachers, often learning layer by layer, if these arts are simple? 

Why not just teach the principles and then let the students mature in their practice on their own? 

[Paradoxal]

1 hour ago, Scholar said:

There is no "internal kung fu" that works in a fight. Xu Xiadong is proving it by defeating big internal masters with no effort at all

You clearly misunderstand the significance of "internal" or "external" methods, and that is fine; it's a common misunderstanding, afterall. "External" methods are more commonly used in MMA, and these can include lifting weights, punching boards, etc. "Internal" methods simply are another tool of building ability, much like lifting weights or punching hard objects to strengthen the fists. While internal methods *can* lead to much more fulfilling things compared to fighting, they do not make a fighter without training specifically designed to produce a fighter. You can lift weights for years, but never develop the ability to punch hard or take a hard punch, let alone the strategy, visual acuity, reflexes, or conditioning required to step in a ring; internal training is much the same, it's simply a tool in the toolbox. You still require reflex training, body conditioning, and practice against a live opponent, one that will hit back and take a hit. 

 

I practice a system that is a mix of internal and external training, and I find it to be quite useful in a fight (and I have used it multiple times to resolve situations on the street). That said, I do not find it to *only* be useful in a fight, and that is not the point of learning a martial art in the first place. If I solely wanted to learn how to defend myself, I would carry a gun. Only around 10 hours of training required maximum, and it can get you through most sticky situations where I live. Much less time needs to be spent, and much less overall money and effort required for the classes. If I wanted to learn how to fight effectively barehanded, I would only need to learn three hand movements at max, with four leg movements at max. This is how many combat sports are taught, and it is why you don't exactly see many variations of strikes in these sports despite the wide variety of options out there. You only need to be able to attack from straight or round with both arms and legs, and be able to get in and out of range. What creates a strong fighter is an understanding of how to apply said movements, not what specific movements they subscribe to (though, a more efficient system can certainly help). 

 

In addition, I don't know your personal experience with fighting, but I think it worthy to mention the sheer physical fitness of anyone getting into the ring professionally. A professional fighter is going to be extremely fit; much more fit than most who are professional teachers (though, some said fighters retain that fitness even after retirement, so there are teachers who are indeed at that level still). I haven't seen the "big internal masters" being beaten, but I would question if they are kitted out to fight to begin with? Throwing a kitten into a pit with a hungry lion would hardly be a good way to judge the merits of various species of feline, no? 

[Cleansox]

1 hour ago, Scholar said:

There is no "internal kung fu" that works in a fight. Xu Xiadong is proving it by defeating big internal masters with no effort at all

Ahhh. 

They all were from diluted lineages without the true transmission. 

[Cleansox]

2 minutes ago, Paradoxal said:

You clearly misunderstand the significance of "internal" or "external" methods, and that is fine; it's a common misunderstanding, afterall. 

I think @Scholar get the point about martial arts, and masters claiming fighting ability. 

 

[dwai]

2 hours ago, Cleansox said:

In the context of internal kung fu and other similar arts, why does students stay so long with teachers, often learning layer by layer, if these arts are simple? 

Why not just teach the principles and then let the students mature in their practice on their own? 

I believe the time taken involves undoing “incorrect” things in the specific context. I’ve seen people struggle to understand what “abandon force” means after 20-30 years of practicing taijiquan.
 

Is that a teacher’s fault or that the student? Perhaps neither, but rather a flaw of the “conventional” way of looking at the world etc.

[manitou]

On 12/13/2020 at 8:21 AM, dwai said:

 

  Hide contents

Just chill and enjoy —

 

 

 

 

 

This is just wonderful.  Two things captured me on this.  First, that the point of manifestation of the emerging fractal is akin to an event horizon in a black hole, only in reverse.

 

Second, to look at it metaphysically is to see a journey from outward appearances down to the essence of the meditating woman, the I Am that she is.

 

As I read this thread, which I only clicked on because I saw Dwai was hanging out here, I am so impressed with the earnestness of the connection of perfection of body form or practice, combined with the desire to perfect the spiritual self as well.  I know nothing of the MAs, other than having spent some time speaking with a bujinkan ninja who teaches the craft and lives a few blocks over.

 

When I first met him, we all got along great and became friends.  He started showing me some of his routines one day, and he wasn't into it 30 seconds, when I said "Are you familiar with the Daodejing?  Everything you are doing reminds me of it!"  I'd been studying different translations for some time.  

 

He then told me that indeed, the martial arts were based on the combined understandings of both Lao Tzu and Sun Tsu.  I think the first thing I had noticed was the economy of movement, the yin/yang of male and female in his movements.  I felt the Sun Tsu influence when he would wait for the 'enemy' and using the enemy's own motion to upend him.  Surely these are things are so very basic to everyone on this thread, but I'm a bit in awe at realizing, not learning, the working presence of the Daodejing in your movements and subsequently, if the inner journey is taken, in your life.

 

To hear folks on this thread talk of perfecting your physical path and the spiritual path as one is truly music to my ears.  I too walked a very long path, but it was the path of alcoholism, and subsequent recovery from it.  I'm sure not comparing alcoholism to martial arts in any way - but that was apparently the path that lay at my feet.  And now here we all are, here together.

 

What connects us, is that the more we peel our inner onion, the less of our conditioned self is there to distort the emanations of the light that is Us.  And the more we peel, the brighter the sun gets.  To see the true reality of nature, to know who we truly are - we finally become Self Realized beings limited only by our imaginations.  To become capable of engaging an opponent in an enlightened mindset - knowing that you and he are one and the same - is that even possible?  But then again, the master of the battlefield will count the dead enemy with a heavy heart.

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2020 by manitou

[Cleansox]

12 hours ago, dwai said:

I believe the time taken involves undoing “incorrect” things in the specific context. I’ve seen people struggle to understand what “abandon force” means after 20-30 years of practicing taijiquan.
 

Is that a teacher’s fault or that the student? Perhaps neither, but rather a flaw of the “conventional” way of looking at the world etc.

And does then teachers use expedient means to help the students, going through method by method until the student can grasp the principle? 

[dwai]

7 hours ago, Cleansox said:

And does then teachers use expedient means to help the students, going through method by method until the student can grasp the principle? 

In my experience the means vary with the student. Very few pick it up easily. For most it takes time and diligent practice. With time and practice one develops a way to understand what’s being taught.
 

As far as methods...meh. 
 

For instance, in taijiquan, “method to method” doesn’t mean much. You can’t learn much from technique — solo form practice is of course important, but it takes on a different meaning along with push hands practice.
 

The way to grow the learning is to push hands with someone who’s more skilled than you. And then push hands with someone who is less skilled than you. And keep working on that. 
 

It’s only after the ability to listen and let go (ting and sung) develops that other “methods” make sense. Before developing those skills, methods are complex and difficult. After, not so much. Effort is still required, but not in the way of a neophyte. 
 

P.S. FWIW, in my personal experience,  the hardest part was learning to recognize where I was “not letting go”, and then figure out how “letting go” works for me. The listening skill helps in recognizing where one is not letting go, and then letting go becomes possible. This is why it is important to work regularly with one or more practice partner. My teachers always have said that the most important thing in taijiquan is finding a good practice partner. 

Edited December 28, 2020 by dwai

[Cleansox]

4 hours ago, dwai said:

In my experience the means vary with the student. Very few pick it up easily. For most it takes time and diligent practice. With time and practice one develops a way to understand what’s being taught.
 

As far as methods...meh. 

For me, trying to learn through principles and by watching/"stealing" from my seniors didn't work at all. 

I was seriously stuck under the glass ceiling for years. 

 

So, I found another teacher that taught me many of those details which probably fall into what you would define as complex. 

 

Well, pieces of a puzzle makes a picture, suddenly I got the point, and could continue to develop under my main teacher. 

 

Thus said, you can see that I place more value of the gradual and complex way of learning, and my interpretation of what you have described in this thread would have been too big a jump for me to handle. 

 

[dwai]

Just now, Cleansox said:

For me, trying to learn through principles and by watching/"stealing" from my seniors didn't work at all. 

I was seriously stuck under the glass ceiling for years. 

 

So, I found another teacher that taught me many of those details which probably fall into what you would define as complex. 

 

Well, pieces of a puzzle makes a picture, suddenly I got the point, and could continue to develop under my main teacher. 

 

Thus said, you can see that I place more value of the gradual and complex way of learning, and my interpretation of what you have described in this thread would have been too big a jump for me to handle. 

 

That is the right approach, but I strongly advise against self-defeating mindsets where everything is so complex that the mind doesn’t get the confidence to even try to fathom.  

 

Ok, as an exercise to illustrate, to place your mind at two points simultaneously. For eg. the center of your palms, facing each other, a foot or so apart. Is that complex or simple?
 

Then placing the mind at two points in your room simultaneously, front and back, left and right, up and down. 

 

Then all the points simultaneously. 
 

Then the entire space at once. 

[freeform]

21 hours ago, dwai said:

Is that complex or simple?

 

Sounds simple - that's how you develop fajin?